David Dein: The Man Who Changed Football Forever | Extraordinary Life Stories

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1:00David Dein:You don't do too many of these? I don't want to be Mr Dialer quote, so I tend when I want to speak, I want to make sure that it's fairly potent. Who is David Dean? I've had 44 years at the top of the game with Arsenal, with the FA, UEFA, FIFA, so it keeps me busy. That love of football, where did that start? When I was 10 or 11 years of age, I was taken to Arsenal by my late uncle, and I got hooked. That was it. So I was in the quantity business for about 10 years. And that's when you go to bed rich and you wake up poor because the market changed overnight somewhere and you've got to roll with the punches there.

1:36David Dein:And that taught me a little bit about how you've got to be quick on your feet. Then I was fortunate enough to buy a block of shares in Arsenal in 1983. And that changed my life. David said, what do you think is the most important moment in a player when he's on the field? What do you think the most important time is for him? I said, well, when he's on the ball, when he's got to make a decision, he's on the ball. He said, no, five seconds before he's got the ball, when the ball is coming, he's going to make a decision. He's got to have a look around him, the peripheral view of the game. What is he going to do when he gets the ball?

2:22Welcome. Thank you. Looking forward to this conversation. Really?

2:26David Dein:Are you? I don't know what's going to happen, so I'm fine. You don't do too many of these? I don't want to be Mr Dialer quote, so I tend, when I want to speak, I want to make sure that it's fairly potent. Yes, I feel that, and thank you for making the time to talk with me. My pleasure. Who is David Dean? What a good question. I've never had that question asked before. well I've had 44 years at the top of the game with Arsenal with the FA, UEFA, FIFA they give me a nice title of being an ambassador for the FA and the Premier League which gives me freedom to ride and go around the world watching football matches yeah and spend a good deal of my time now on my charity which is called the Twinning Project where I twin a football club with its local prison so it keeps me busy yeah and then of course I've got a family life where I've got three children and eight grandchildren so I've got to do a balancing act yeah already sounds chaotic well it's all about how you organize your life that love of football and the ambassador role that allows you to go around and still be very much part of it where did that start what was the who or what influence that that's I suppose when most of us it's the story of fever pitch isn't it with Nick Hornby do you remember the play the film uh it's when you go to your first game you get hooked and that was my when I was 10 or 11 years of age I was taken to Arsenal by my late uncle and I got hooked that was it and before that we were aware of the grease paint the roar of the crowd so it was always Arsenal now but was there was a an inkling to Arsenal oh I see my family my late brother was an arsenal fan yes so that passion rubbed off yeah and then bring the business element to it in because football that word passion you know fever pitch somewhere in my family there's a connection to nick hornby i can't remember what it is yeah i remember when that book came out and in the film yeah um you know and that passion that can be incredibly consuming as well i want to sort of understand where that ultimately became almost like a business interest yeah I think I was always fairly entrepreneurial my late mother was really she was the breadwinner in the family and in fact we had she had a small shop in Shepherd's Bush market and I used to fill the shelves on a Saturday morning so I think that gave me my first experience into commercial life and a discipline a work discipline yeah that's true yeah but the business interests obviously became quite substantial.

5:06So did you make the early business success to then bring it into football and the connection to Arsenal?

5:13David Dein:Yes, I started actually with my late brother. We were in business together. Then I went into the sugar business where I was fortunate enough occasionally getting the market right. You know, it's very volatile. It's like any commodity. So I was in the commodity business for about 10 years. And that's when you go to bed rich and you wake up poor because the market changed overnight somewhere and you've got to roll with the punches there. And that taught me a little bit about how you've got to be quick on your feet. And then I was fortunate enough to buy a block of shares in Arsenal in 1983. And that changed my life.

5:47Interesting. The commodities up and downs was probably quite a good lead into the football. Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's an emotional rollercoaster. Yeah. Well, that's what I wanted to open up. You know, I spoke to you off camera about friendship with Jeff Mostyn, former chairman of AFC for 16 years. What a lovely guy. What a story as well. The emotions from a club that was saved from disappearing forever and the fact that there's business decisions that seem to potentially almost go out of the window with some of these very successful people that come into football and then the passion takes over and you must have seen some of that.

6:22David Dein:It's an emotional game. It's the heart rolling the head. You have a lot of successful business men who actually fail in football because they just think they're successful. They can actually run a club on the commercial line. But it's not about that. Now, you've got, you know, part of your history, if you like, is this incredible journey with Arsenal and Arsene Wenger. I want to bring leadership into that because that self-awareness of what you just said there, knowing, you know, managing ego, managing the passion, but also being successful in business. At what point did you have any kind of grounding, if you like, like, apart from coming in through the commodities and so on, to then actually literally learn on the job as a leader and then having someone like Arsene coming in and allowing him to be the leader he needed to be.

7:07Yeah.

7:08David Dein:I mean, we can talk about Arsene all day and all night because, and I'm still, he's probably my closest friend, and he's very special. And I always say time spent with Arsene is time well spent because every time you're with him, you'll learn something. I was with him the other night for dinner and he said David he said what do you think is the most important moment in a player when he's on the field what do you think the most important time is for him I said well when he's on the ball when he's he's got to make a decision he's on the ball he said no five seconds before he's got the ball when the ball is coming he's going to make a decision he's got to have a look around him the peripheral view of the game what is he going to do when he gets the ball?

7:50David Dein:So, you know, little things like that, you wouldn't think about it. You think, well, the player, what's he going to do when he's got the ball? Incidentally, here's a question for you. Not many people know this. How long do you think a player is in possession of a ball in 90 minutes? Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line. Whether it's the funds fueling AI, or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story. And when you see the money side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now at Bloomberg.com.

8:32David Dein:Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel, maybe. Or white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Wow. Six minutes. Two. So assuming they play three games in eight days, they're actually on the ball for six minutes during three games. They've got to make their fame, their fortune, their impression on the world in six minutes in three games. It's not easy in any walk of life. No. That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing that.

9:18There you go. I remember where I was in a friend's house in Fulham when Arsene came up on the TV as announced. There was about six or seven of us, and they were all football fans, some of them Arsenal fans, and they said, Arsene who? Where has he come from? Now, I just want to understand that journey where there's a pressure to bring in perhaps known, proven leaders, particularly in the culture that already existed in England. So I want to understand why there was a vision ultimately to bring someone in that ultimately transformed so much of the culture that's now been followed by countless others.

9:55David Dein:I guess it's one word, it's judgment. In my case, I'd met Arsene in January the 1st, 1989, when he happened to be in the, he was actually watching a game in Istanbul. He came across to Arsenal. That day we were playing Spurs and he was then going on to Monaco. He was manager at Monaco in 89. And I met him casually in our cocktail lounge. This is funny because at Arsenal, the old Highbury, we used to have the director's box where the directors and their friends would entertain. and those people not worthy of being in the director's box would go into another room called the cocktail lounge, which is normally the scouts and other managers and other people.

10:40David Dein:And in fact, women were not allowed in the director's box area until about after quarter past two, there was some peculiar arrangement. My wife, being American, she soon changed that. She said, I'm not coming if I can't be with you. Anyway, that's bye-bye. So she happened to be in the cocktail lounge and asked, when you was in there? and I used to go in there, it was more interesting people in the cocktail lounge than in the boardroom, so I would go into the cocktail lounge, and at half-time during this particular game on January 1st, 89, she was talking to Arsene, and we got talking, and I said to him, how long are you here for?

11:17David Dein:He said, just overnight. I mean, I'd heard of him, but I'd never met him. I said, no, he said, I'm just here overnight, and then I'm going back to Monaco tomorrow. So I said, what are you doing tonight? right he said nothing so I've got a motto John which I live by every day of my life and I'm going to share it with your listeners today my motto is the motto of the turtle the motto of the turtle is you don't get anywhere unless you stick your neck out I stuck my neck out I said would you like to come out for dinner with us tonight we're going to a friend's house why don't you come along he said I'd love to that answer changed our lives love that love that if you don't ask you don't get yeah and then we were I remember he happened to be in show the guy was a funny enough a drummer with a group called the Marmalade he was in show business so at the end of the evening we were playing charades you know is it a book is it a film is it a play uh I said to him and he didn't speak particularly good English at the time I said do you want to play the game of Shiraz?

12:19David Dein:He said, yes, why not? Five minutes later, he's acting out the Midsummer Night's Dream. And I thought, well, this guy's something different. Then I started speaking to him. He speaks four languages, he's got a degree in economics. He's not your average footballer, he's just become a manager. This guy's more cerebral. And I sort of earmarked him. I thought, Arsene for Arsenal. It's going to happen. It's destined. I'm not spiritual. It's a manifestation. Yeah. And at the time, we didn't know this, but we were going to win the league in spectacular style on the 26th of May at Anfield the famous game 2-0, it's up for grabs now, Mickey Thomas and so we were happy with George but I thought this is a guy to watch so I used to go to the south of France a lot and see him in action and he didn't realise it but he was auditioning because I could see how he interacted with the players with the press, with the fans, with the board and I thought this is one to you know and then when it came to it we that was that was the start of the journey thank you for sharing that it goes back to what you said about judgment you know that that auditioning for how how Arsene interacted with you how are you watching him knowing that could be the right fit the right culture for when you were ready yeah but it's always when when you have to appoint anybody you're not quite sure how how how it's going to end but it's all about judgment you just think do they tick the right boxes yeah i love that um the turtle sticking neck out uh mentality because that also extends to you being part of what ultimately created the premier league yeah something that hadn't been done before yeah something that could be seen as a risk yeah it feels like you've got a a attitude towards risk that is actually let's give this a go that that probably came from my background in the commodity bar where you had to take a position in the market in order to be successful you had to go long or short the market you couldn't be neutral you had to either buy in advance or sell in advance um so i was used to i guess risk taking yes so it wasn't strange to me which is also very entrepreneurial and i can't imagine no one watching would be able to imagine life without the premier league now transformed yeah football as we know did you have resistance was there was there uh in any way you know because if you look at what recently happened with the super league how that almost got announced and then quashed and there's there's often fear associated with that take me back to when the premier league was created and any resistance you had there it's chapter two in the book you do know that don't you this is a good plug for the book calling the shots on amazon you can get it on the same plug what made my mind up about the premier league was the following firstly we're now talking about football, not as it is today, but in the 1980s English football was in trouble, big trouble.

15:07David Dein:We had hooliganism, we had fighting in the grounds, fighting outside the grounds, women were not going to the games, the stadium were dilapidated, attendances were dropping like a stone. Had it been in anybody's business you'd think, where is it going? It's going down the drain. Something had to change and tragically it changed for the worst. In 1989 we had the hills of a disaster and to me that was the wake-up point for football 97 people perished while watching a football match that incident happened in april 89 and my daughter who was at habitash's school said to me the following day dad two of the girls who perished were at my school i was now sitting this is before the Premier League, I'm now sitting on the Football League Management Committee.

16:01David Dein:And I said, I wonder if I could speak to their parents. So I said, can you get the phone number for me? And she did. She came back, managed to get the phone number of the Hicks, Trevor and Jenny Hicks. They lived, I think, in Bushey. So I rang them up and I said, sorry to bother you at this sensitive time, but I'm David Dean from the Football League Management Committee at Arsenal. I wonder if I could come and see you. They said, with pleasure. I said, I'll only say five or ten minutes. So I went round to see them. This is about three days after the incident. And they told me the experience that they had.

16:34David Dein:She said they went into the training centre at Hillsborough, where they had perimeter boards with the bodies on top of them with blankets. They had to open up the blankets, hoping and praying that their children were not going to be underneath. and unfortunately two of them were and they lost two kids and I came out of that I stayed there four hours that night I thought was only going to stay five minutes I stayed with them four hours and I came out before I got in my car just stood on the doorstep of their house and I thought football can't be like this it's got to change we have to do something dramatic it can't be it's an entertainment business how can we associate ourselves with death at a football match and I think that gave me the inspiration to really do something and that's when I got the others together I got the other four we were called the big five in those days not many people know this there was Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Manchester United you know who the fifth club was?

17:41no

17:41David Dein:anybody? it was Everton because in the 1980s, now you'd think Man City, Chelsea, right? They were nowhere to be seen. It was Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Man United and Everton. So I got the other four together. We were always very friendly. We were always talking about where the game was going. And we decided we were going to change football. That seemed easy, but there's 92 professional clubs. So it was one heck of a task. And of course, in those days, there were four divisions making up 92 professional clubs. We came up with this idea, not like the ill-fated football at the Super League. We decided to take the top division of 22 clubs at the time.

18:32David Dein:In the 1980s, it was 22 in the old first division. and break away, form a whole new legal entity, rebrand ourselves, reinvent ourselves, call ourselves the Premier League and start. We needed a fresh start because football was, I mean, it was in big trouble. Yeah, anyone at a certain age will struggle to even, it's a glitz, it's almost sort of movie star type element now with the Ronaldo's and the Messi's as the megastars. People listening to this at a certain age won't even be able to imagine it being anything other than that which comes down to the decision making and really appreciate you telling that emotional story because out of such pain decision making judgment um was made that ultimately created something that is a hell of a lot safer you know i've got two teenage daughters so i really felt that when you said that and they can go to a game now safely and watch it and and and 28 of the attendees now going to premier league games a female didn't see that in the 1980s no and then you've got the and it's safe and you've got what women's football is absolutely flourishing so is that something that you just covered that now is that something that you saw coming yeah that was in the 19th it's a funny story there that was in the 19 and obviously i used to go because my wife's american we used to go to the states a lot and i could see that women's football was was big in the states and and it was it was nothing in england and one day our kit man a lovely guy called Vic Akers he said Mr.

20:00David Dein:Liddy said I've got some girls in the laundry that want to play football do you think we can get them some kit I said better than that why don't we form a team and I went to the board and I said to the board I had the temerity once again sticking your neck out I went to the board and I said I'd like to propose that we have an Arsenal women's team. And there was silence. And the chairman, you could smoke in those days, he took his cigar out. He said, David, he said, is that a publicity stunt? I said, no, chairman, this is serious. I've seen it in America. We should really start, right? And Vic said, we've got some girls in the laundry.

20:37David Dein:Let's get together. Let's get some kit from Nike, which we did. And then we took off. And then we won every, you can imagine, we were the first to really get the show on the road. I didn't know that about you. So there's another pioneering, you know, stick your neck out moment. And now I always, when people talk about women's football, I always use this phrase, the train has left the station and it's gathering speed. Today we're getting 60 ,000 people at the Emirates to watch a women's game. We were lucky to get a dozen of the parents at Hoxton Leisure Centre when we started watching the game.

21:11David Dein:That show how it's coming. Yeah. And of course for the Lionesses to win the Euros and Arsenal to win the Champions League. Yes. It's come on. And then now you've got BBC One, you've got television behind it, sponsors behind it. It's got a long way to go. The women's game is so exciting. It is. And I feel like there's lessons to be learned on what they could do differently to the men's game that can set it apart. And I'm not necessarily, I don't know what your thoughts are on that because I've been around a few people that really do want to see it thrive and flourish how it should. Perhaps not copying the route that the men's game went.

21:44Have you got any thoughts on that?

21:46David Dein:Yeah, I think it is pure. It's innocent. It hasn't been contaminated by us all the money. It will happen. It's inevitable. But at the moment, people go and they enjoy it. And you've got both sets of fans together. There's not so much antagonism or rivalry. There is rivalry, but it's friendly rivalry. Back to being entertainment. Yeah, entertainment. And that's what it should be. You mentioned the money side of things. Where do you see the game of football going in context of, So much money has been pumped into the game over the years. Into the men's game or the women's game? Well, let's say both.

22:22But the men's game in terms of trajectory of what from Premier League to now this global entertainment space and almost fighting for the attention. We live in that as an economy, social media, how we can consume our content. And it feels like the business element of football has almost been thrown out of the window. A P &L doesn't exist anymore. I think the figures, championship clubs on average are 13 million ultimately in debt by the end of a season. They're not running. It's often a passionate businessman that's popping it up. It's true. What about the sustainability of football? And I'm talking about the kind of ground roots right the way through.

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23:35David Dein:I mean, they start the year off, Premier League clubs. They get over$100 million from television before they kick a ball. so it's how they run their business and if they spend too much money then well they'll be on their own heads they're gonna you know there's only a set there's a certain amount of income coming in from gate receipts television sponsorship hospitality and the rest and if there's paying too much money out before for transfers for salaries agents fees then they'll lose money but they don't have But it is a very, it's the most attractive, most wanted, most viewed sport in the world.

24:12David Dein:Yeah. And the fact that FIFA have got 211 countries, and you'll see this World Cup will generate more money than any World Cup in the world. With 48 teams, it'll grow something like$14 billion in four weeks. It's huge, isn't it? That's huge numbers. It is huge numbers, but it's such an attractive sport. Yeah. And we've got now we're talking about women. There's more women and girls in England playing football than ever before. Over a million women and girls are registered with the FA. And that's from a standing start literally 30 years ago. Sure. Yeah, which makes the trajectory really interesting where that can go.

24:51Communities are massively important. When you look at the young lad that got taken to a game, young David, it then becomes a fan and look where that's led to. Community, I want to bring your twinning project in. and the why behind it why the why the prisons and is there an element of you wanting to give back

25:09David Dein:yeah i think it's a stage of my life uh in my case when i left arsenal i was actually proposition you may have heard of a guy called robert peston who is the uh financial correspondent for itv used to be a pbc and he arsenal fan he came we had lunch together and he said david i'm starting a charity called Speakers for Schools. I said, what is that going to do, Robert? He said, well, I've interviewed so many successful people. I'd like to, if they've got time, to go into state schools and just tell youngsters when they're getting to 15, 16, 17, they're going to make a decision about their careers.

25:49David Dein:Actually, give them inspiration. I've seen a successful person. It may help them make a decision. I said, count me in. I'll be delighted. He said, David, I know you're a busy man only expect one or two a year from you i must have done six seven hundred talks around the around the country not just in london but around the country for speakers for schools and i enjoy it and i get the magic words every day thank you and that fills the tank it's all i need fulfillment yeah yeah because i'm telling my story and it's it is meant to be inspirational motivational so that really coming to the 20 project so I'm going around schools and I'm thinking I'm enjoying this I've got time on my hands where else is there a captive audience and the word captive stuck in my I thought prisons I thought I'll get the prison I bet they're bored bored bored out the head why don't I go into prisons and give them talks so a friend of mine at the home office I knocked on his door and I said look I'm doing these talks in schools do you think I can do them in prisons as well?" He said, well, it's unusual.

26:56David Dein:It took me eight months and they gave me a trial prison, HMP Rochester in Kent. So I rock up there, I give my talk, got three people in front of me with clipboards, they're marking my homework. I've given talks for FIFA, the FA, around the world. Anyway, so they said, yeah, we quite like it. We've got 113 prisons. Would you like to give talks to them? I said, with pleasure. So I've I've been to every prison in England and Wales, giving talks. And going around the talk, giving my talks, I'm thinking, what is football doing in prison to help rehabilitation? Nothing. So I thought, what about twinning?

27:34David Dein:And then I get all my best ideas, shaving. So I'm thinking, what is football doing in prison? How can I twin a football club with... So I came up with the idea of the twinning project, where I twin a football club with a prison. So Arsenal twin with Pentonville, QPR with Wormwood Scrubs, Leeds United with Leeds Prison and so on around the country. And it's working. Now we've got, the only problem is a little old-fashioned issue called money, where we don't get anything from the government. So we have, it's fine for the bigger clubs to fund it through their charitable foundations. But the lower clubs, Lincoln or Mansfield, we've got to fund them.

28:15David Dein:So we need to have an event. In fact, we've got a big event coming up, which is sold out, by the way, on the 20th of April at Abbey Road Studios, where I've got Arsene Wenger, Gareth Southgate, Roy Hudson, Glenn Hoddle, right, as talent. And it's going to be a combination of football and Beatles music to raise money for the charity. So that's what we've got to do, we have to raise money. Talent and inspiration. so that would be an incredible room yeah no what a great project you know and anyway i can help you with that uh we were yeah we were kindly connected by a mutual friend who's invited me to come to that event so i'll see you in play and i'll see you will see it all and you will hear an ex-offender talking john and you'll hear his story how the twinning project has turned his life around i'm looking forward to that i mean you know we're doing it now you're doing it now storytelling just gives so much inspiration to others and to learn from lived experiences and how things can change, which, you know, you've clearly got a, you know, a track record of doing and continue to do.