Ellie Kildunne: Fearless, Fast, and Redefining Rugby | Extraordinary Life Stories

14:24Ellie Kildunne:I could kind of feel it because I wasn't fully myself and that would then frustrate me but also going into a World Cup you know I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything I could to be in the best place possible to help my team win the tournament and whether that's I unable to sleep at night because I've got so many ideas from training and I just need to run this certain move or you know away from sport how I switch off I'm not in a coffee shop I'm not sat doing the recovery that people expect to do I'm out with my camera taking photos of people or thinking of a way to make a video which will creatively push women's rugby in a direction that it's not been before and that side of me I loved but the chaos and everything is just me but I needed to understand it so that I can put strategies in place that doesn't impact other people so if I'm late to something that does not bother me I you know I can still get there I can still get to the gym the gym session do my gym session and then go off and do the next thing but what it does impact is the girls around me and I don't want that or the way that I communicate on the pitch I'll be talking a million miles an hour I've seen this I've felt this my instinct and they're just sat there thinking, what on earth is this girl on about?

15:42Ellie Kildunne:And I need to be able to communicate what I see to you as a teammate so that we can execute something on the field. So I needed to understand all of that, but I also needed strategies in place and ADHD is never going to be an excuse and it's never something that I ever feel like people need to shy away from. You just need to embrace that you're wired slightly differently and also people with ADHD it always looks different from one person to another so you

16:11John Reynolds:need always learning to deal with it as well right yeah without it being an excuse yeah there's huge relatability there yeah that will help lots of people what you said and it's a superpower people

16:20Ellie Kildunne:try their whole lives to be different and be unique and if it's if you're born with it and it's part of your makeup lean into that because you'll be able to think in ways that no one else can think. You're able to juggle things that people would crumble under that pressure. But I found for me, that's something that makes me who I am. And the power of being understood is so underestimated. I needed to understand myself in order to ask other people to understand me as well. So going through the diagnosis, it was a time that things started clicking the way that I was at school. I'm a high achiever and I've always been a high achiever, whether that is at school or whether that is in the sporting world so I've got away with things but that doesn't mean I've not found things tricky and I've not had to put a lot of effort into it to get to where I am but I think with social media nowadays everyone talks about ADHD there's a million symptoms up yeah that's what I've got but it doesn't change your life if you've always had it it's always going to be there you've just got to work out ways to embrace it and to lean into it and use it as a superpower rather than something that anchors you down i think we had again the chat

17:32John Reynolds:off camera where you know we only knew what we know and we assumed everyone else was the same but you've learned this so early and then that that relatable piece where being genuine being yourself has not only allowed you to know yourself better than you ever would have done at this stage of your life but also to be the best teammate best friend yeah exactly best daughter this is all so that's brilliant you've said this talking about um teammates and that sort of camaraderie it goes with rugby i used to play you know at school level but the banter um and the chance to take out a certain amount of frustration you know you could you could be tackling someone or you know you're getting thrown to the ground with someone there's a lot of physical side of things but everyone kind of pats each other on the back goes and has a beer after this kind of thing and i want to talk about the values of rugby because it feels like they haven't changed at all which is so lovely because you know football can get a bad rep where the guys are throwing themselves down trying to get the other guy sent off and so it doesn't seem to happen in rugby it seems to be a constant is that am I right am I on the sort of yeah 100 % I think that's the thing

18:34Ellie Kildunne:that you know you can play 80 minutes well let's actually go back to training you can do hours of training where you're absolutely smashing each other and then in a few days time you're expected to play on the same team so you have this underlying level of respect for each other that you know i'm going to smash you in training because that's going to make me better which is going to make us better but then part of being rugby everyone talks about you know smashing someone else tackling someone else but also you've got to be ready to be tackled so if i put pressure on you in defense you're going to get better in attack so you don't get smashed all the time But that's the thing, even when we play against teams, we've been on this circuit and you've got this mutual respect that it takes a lot to be in the position that you're in, whether that's representing your country or your club.

19:22Ellie Kildunne:And yeah, when the whistle goes, you're trying to hit them, score, pass them, avoid them in my case. And that mutual respect that I know exactly what you're doing, you're putting everything that you can do into this. And there's times I question, why the hell am I doing this? why am I doing I've just been smashed and there's times I've cried on the floor thinking why am I doing that you know it's raining someone's just stood on my toes that's not very fun um but then the thing that always brings me back is my girls I would do anything for them you know if I'm gonna be a sacrificial lamb and say right come hit me because in the next phase you're gonna score I'd do anything for them and I know they'd do anything for me and I think that's what's beautiful about the game of rugby is that it is really a team effort and we wouldn't be able no one will be able to do the job if it wasn't for the person next next to you um and that goes across when you're playing opposition and in your own team as well yeah i love that it's a passion

20:21John Reynolds:yeah and that healthy respect for each other and and that's the teammates as well as actually for the opposition which i think you've crystallized beautiful you mentioned smashing in training reminds me we were talking about shoulder pads yeah i think that's a really important story to share of you coming through as a young girl playing rugby so tell that story so when I started playing

20:41Ellie Kildunne:rugby I started playing with the boys I saw no boundaries in doing that I think every everyone assumes poor Ellie she had to play with the boys I loved that I played with the boys you know there wasn't many uh girls teams I think it's different now and it's definitely changing but definitely when I was growing up there was only boys teams and as a kid I just wanted the ball in my hand it didn't matter if I was playing with girls or boys um and then yeah growing up I was always fast I didn't necessarily need the shoulder pads but I also hated getting tackled and you know I hated tackling as well so I wore shoulder pads for a lot of the time and even through my international career I wore shoulder pads because although I'm fast and quite tall I've always been quite slim and I needed this fake confidence that I was bigger than what I am because rugby's seen as a physical sport but I think it's half physical half mental and sometimes you've got to fake it to make it.

21:39Ellie Kildunne:It's the reason why I play with my hair down, it makes me feel that I've got a bigger presence. I've got confidence then and I'm happily going into tackles feeling like I'm smashing people and feeling like I can do it because if I back out then I don't feel like I'm as strong as I am I'll probably get hurt so for a long time I've worn shoulder pads and yeah it's just for that fake it till you make it aspect that I want to be able to put my body on the line for the success of my team and to gain advantage you know if I play fullback so if people break the I know I don't want to make a tackle the next thing that they're going past is the whitewash

22:20John Reynolds:and the scoring so last line of defense yeah exactly so you know I just think this is another thing that people need to lean into and let's talk about fears because that's really what it is

22:31Ellie Kildunne:is being scared of doing something I'm scared of tackling or not anymore but I was scared of tackling I was scared of being tackled but that's made me exactly the player I am today I'm scared of being tackled so I'll run around everybody I'm not running into people I'm scared of tackling I I was scared of tackling, let's lean into that, wear shoulder pads. Now I don't feel scared. I've got this armor on. I can make the tackles, whether that was against the boys when I was younger, or whether that's against the French that are running over me in the World Cup. So people try to run away from fears, but I think sometimes you've just got to lean into it and embrace it.

23:06John Reynolds:Feel the fear and do it anyway. You epitomize that. You are radiating confidence without in any way arrogance at all. Like just, you know what you've achieved. It's crystallizing, trophies and nominations but what are you scared of still now i don't really want to use the word

23:21Ellie Kildunne:scared or fearful because it's it's neither of those things i've just got to be cautious that i know that i'm a role model for so many people and i also know that what i do people will listen to you know people will be listening to this and people will be inspired by the things i do i just want to be able to keep up with that and show that i'm never someone that's ever going to confined to the norm and I'm never going to be someone who follows suit of what people expect and I don't want to ever be that person and show people that if that's what you expect that's what I'm going to do and as long as I embrace that the unknown is exciting and that will never happen but this is also a life that I am living on my own and you know I've got my teammates my family and friends around me but at the end of the day if I don't put 100 % in then I'm not gonna get 100 % back so it's just being able to go right this is the unknown I'm jumping into the deep end let's see what we can get with it yeah I don't want to go this is unknown I'll dip my toe in it and we'll see where we get there it's just being true to myself um being true to my values and what I think's right and doing that in a way that hopefully that's the one thing that inspires people is that it's okay to not know it's okay to make it up as you go and fake it till you make it because that's exactly what i'm doing that's brilliant i mean that genuine authenticity

24:47John Reynolds:about you is that that role model element i've got two teenage daughters so any girls uh looking for role models you know that whole you epitomize that beautifully and leaning into again feel the fear do it anyway but actually probably still looking for more challenges because sitting here right now particularly in the game of rugby you know you've already climbed the pinnacle that you but you you embrace the next challenge you still want to keep going do you think beyond rugby at 26 in your prime you're on jonathan ross last night wherever you go from here there's a lot of extracurricular um things going on you you said about your audio book which is the most amount of time you spent reading a book happened to be your own but this is all stuff it's outside of what was your dreams to be playing rugby.

25:31John Reynolds:Do you think beyond your sort of the playing days and what you might be doing with your platform you're building?

25:37Ellie Kildunne:Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body

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26:31Ellie Kildunne:not anymore save up to 40 your first year visit lifelock.com slash podcast terms apply um in all honesty no i like that no i am the only reason i've got these extracurricular things is purely because i am the rugby player that i am i'm still only 26 and even though So I got World Play of the Year in 2024. My first initial thought was, okay, cool, but I'm not at my best yet. So do I want the award right now? But then I challenged myself, okay, get the award again. Push yourself to get to that point again.

27:05John Reynolds:So think about the next one.

27:06Ellie Kildunne:Yeah, and my rugby always will be my priority till the day that I retire. And I really strongly believe if I keep on pushing in my rugby career, the better I become, the better the team comes, these opportunities will keep being thrown at me. the rest of my life and as long as I keep on doing that I will meet people and be in rooms that I would have never thought to have been in and that will set me up after rugby. There's no point in thinking too far ahead. You know, I hope that I'm so successful in my rugby career that I meet people and I gain experiences outside of the sport that then sets me up for what I want to do after and I've, you know, sitting here there's been so many things I think as if I've done that like that wasn't part of the plan or that's not what you know if you were to ask a rugby player what they've done outside the spot that wasn't part of what they've done either but again going back to embracing that and leaning into it I don't want to ever be able to say to you this is what I want to do after after rugby and I get asked it all the time but I have no idea I have no idea

28:13John Reynolds:and I'm happy not knowing because that makes you a great player right now yeah but you also it's not you're not just playing rugby you love your photography you are doing all the different things that that grow your platform whilst focusing on rugby which is why i said i love that because there are certain uh sports people that dare i say they get to the end of their career they haven't thought about it and they haven't done anything else yeah and then that must be that must be a bit of an identity for me it's clear without knowing that you will blend into something that will be organically there for you and it'll it'll be almost obvious to you at the time without yeah

28:47Ellie Kildunne:Yeah, well, my voice is the most powerful now because I'm playing. I can talk the talk, but then I've got the opportunity to walk the walk on a Saturday or a Sunday when I'm playing. So it's all well and good. You know, you're going sports personality, you're going Jonathan Ross and it's not growing my platform and I never will see it as, yes, it is, but I'll never see it as I'm growing my platform and that's what I'm doing. I'm growing women's sports and you know the things I'm doing is not for me it yes will have a domino effect and affect me but my hope is that it's growing the sport in a way that it hasn't done before um but then I do all these things you know new eyes come towards the game new people will be watching me and my teammates then that's that opportunity to say right okay if I'm going to say all these things I better play well in the weekend because that's what people will do they'll watch it in the weekend but how i play in that weekend how my team performs in that weekend will be whether it will affect whether the person i watched it then watched it the next weekend so we're not bothered about people watching it once people coming to work at final because you know there's 80 000 tickets sold and stuff we want people to then buy tickets to the six nations

29:57John Reynolds:yes or to the games the consistency yeah the consistency that grows again as well like the the relentless training, the dedication. And the part that you're playing in shaping women's sport, what are you seeing and how much attention are you paying to the direction that the kind of was the governing bodies and the media are taking it? Because there's a chance to do it differently to how the men's game evolved years ago, right? We're a different age. We have tech, social media. Are you paying attention to that? Are you happy with where it's going? Because it feels like the momentum is just a huge wave on it.

30:29John Reynolds:But there's a chance to do something different.

30:31Ellie Kildunne:Yeah, I think that's it. I think for a long time, as a player, I was like, why are we not, you know, in the same bubble as the men? Why do people not watch us the same way they watch the men? But then it kind of just like, that changed my head and it was, well, it's just different. It's just different and we can't, you know, I was told, you're where the men were 23 years ago. And I'm like, well, no, because there's Instagram and TikTok now. So it's not where it used to be and you can market it in a very, very different way. and this is the way that my brain works creatively but the beauty that we've got with women's sports but definitely in the red roses is that people are authentically themselves and not afraid to show it people use the social media to share their stories everyone's got a story that can inspire somebody and we've got this beautiful thing called social media now to be able to use it in the correct ways because we all are aware there's trolls there's haters but as long as you use it in the correct where you've got the ability to tap into people's brains and that's not just on the rugby field because everyone watches us on a Saturday or Sunday that's one day a week what we're doing in all those other days people wouldn't know but we've got an opportunity to share that story and gain followership to you know increase participation to just say to people my big thing is I don't I'm not trying to inspire you to pick up a rugby ball I don't care if you pick a rugby ball or you don't pick up a rugby ball because what it brings me I can only tell you so much you've got to feel it yourself I want people to be inspired to do something even though they've been told that they can't do it or they won't do it whatever that is whether that's playing the flute painting reading playing a sport I just want to show the world that I was told for a long time girls don't play rugby girls will never be where girls will never sell the twicken amount but look at us now so i want to just say to people if you've been told you can't do something or you won't do something sod it and just do it anyway see where you get with it and yes social media gives us that opportunity and i think the backing has been fantastic from the governing bodies as well and you know during the world cup we saw that because of you know whether it's i i still get goosebumps with some of the videos that they created and some of the content that was created and if i'm inspired by that almost like i'm not in the photo myself like i'm looking at somebody somebody else then what impact is that going to have on on all these other people that

33:03John Reynolds:will be seeing it as well yes yeah some of those have gone viral and rightly so yeah and i think social media is a force for good you know it gets a bad rep and you know the addictive algorithm and so on but if you're putting out positive messages in that mindset you've got about reframing and i imagine you are formidable in a challenge if someone says you can't do it like

33:24Ellie Kildunne:watch me that's my favorite thing coaches hate me because of it well well they i bet they don't hate

33:29John Reynolds:you but that's my point being it's like it's so inspiring for anyone one of the questions i would have asked you is almost like kind of like what advice would you give to someone but it's just that whole just just keep opening that door force it open exactly in terms of putting words in your mouth it feels like that it's just you that's your epitomize that it is i always say like smash the

33:48Ellie Kildunne:glass ceiling you know everyone thinks that this is the top but there's also a lowly space above that just because no one's been there doesn't mean that it won't be you that gets there and you'll get to a certain point and someone will do the next thing again and i will never be at the best i never want to see say i'm at the pinnacle i see the world cup there's a start of my career and this is the start of rugby now not the pinnacle of it because where can we take it now that's that glass ceiling you've won a world cup they're like okay what can we do with it now so So, yeah, it is to smash open the doors and smash the glass ceilings.

34:21Ellie Kildunne:And I just think passion is such a beautiful thing. Yeah. And, you know, you've kind of alluded to it, but actually Jonathan Ross said it as well. He said, you're actually terrifying to speak to because you can see how much confidence you've got and how passionate you are about something. And passion is something that if I'm talking to anybody and they're passionate about something, it could be something I've got no idea about. It could be politics. but if I can see that glistening in their eye and that is something in their voice I'm on it I'm thinking I'm listening now and maybe I'm into politics now as well so yeah I just think that that's the thing is find what you're passionate about and jump into the deep end with it and see

35:02John Reynolds:where you can go with it yeah a lot of people ask me um how and why I invite people to film and I say I've got to get excited about speaking to them I've got to see a glint in their eye that that sort of i can vibe off and we we literally said that out there let alone come in and here um because that's that passion rubs off you know that rubs off on your teammates that rubs off i was the opposite if i wasn't stimulated that's something i've had to work on you know like struggled at school you said you were high achiever but you know algebra buns and burners i'm not going to use this again i was i was looking out the window wanting to go and play

35:33Ellie Kildunne:rugby or play tag or do something well exactly and i did that as well i'm blessed with a mother who who pushed me in my studies and would revise with me, she learned the whole syllabus and would sit down at home and we'd go over everything and revise together. But at the school, I also used to fall out with my mum and say, why am I learning about Shakespeare? I can't use Shakespeare. Why am I doing exams? It's just testing my memory, not my knowledge, and how can I use it? but I was able to hyper focus when I needed and when it mattered most so that high high achieving part of me you know I've had to work so hard to get to that point because it's really important

36:20John Reynolds:to make that point that you've had to work yeah it doesn't again no excuses no yeah and in the book not to drop it in but I you know writing a book and which I've been a ghostwriter for but

36:32Ellie Kildunne:writing a book you relive all these memories and there's so much that's going on that you kind of forget how things played out and when I've been doing this whole process I've relived a lot of it and you know I did struggle in school at times and I was misunderstood by teachers and I did learn in ways that other people don't learn and that's the same for my rugby you know I used to not take notepads because I didn't want to write down I'm not in school now so why am I writing things down and I want to be out with the rugby ball. But I used to have little salt packets that I'd move around, and that was the moves, just because that's the way that I could digest that information.

37:07Ellie Kildunne:So, yeah, it's taken a lot of work, and I'll keep on working out different ways to keep on pushing the game and pushing myself within that game because there's so much more to come, and it's so exciting.

37:20John Reynolds:That's the bit I can feel. It's like there's a huge amount you could already lay claim to as you've done and achieved, but it's like what's coming next and on that i'm really interested in your answer this because there's so much humility matched with success what is your definition of success the definition of

37:37Ellie Kildunne:success to me isn't the medals around your neck or the trophies that are in the cabinet it's knowing that you've done something to the best of your of your ability with no questions left behind so by that point you know if you're going to win or you're not going to win going into the world cup i had every ounce of confidence we were going to win and everyone's going to have that everyone's going to have that but i always said there is no point doing it there's no point winning if one i've not put everything into it and two i'm not happy doing it so as long as i can look back on my career and think i get i shove open every door i can and this is where i've got to that's what success is for me and i've done it happy if something makes me miserable and something doesn't sit right in here, I'm not doing it because it's not worth my time.

38:27And I think

38:29Ellie Kildunne:that's the thing that, you know, with rugby, I need to find ways to keep on enjoying it because there's loads of parts I don't quite enjoy about it. I don't like getting hit. I don't like, you know, being out in the rain training at nine o 'clock at night. But I also know that that's going to make me better. And you mentioned my camera and the creative side of things. When I picked up a camera a few years ago, it gave me this whole different, like outlook on everything that I do because everything could be a picture so when it is throwing it down with rain and I'm thinking god what am I doing I just do this and I think oh god it'd be a great photo there and then suddenly I can appreciate it for what it is and I can put everything into what I'm doing without the complaints without you know you know thinking why am I doing it um and just see it through a really beautiful lens and that's what I want to do looking back in my career think wow if this was a movie it'd be a flipping good movie i love that kayak gets my flight hotel and rental car right so i can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong bro sky coin way better than points never fly during a scorpio full moon just tell the manager you'll sue instant room upgrade stop taking bad travel advice start comparing hundreds of sites with Kayak and get your trip right.

39:51John Reynolds:Bad advice? You talking to me?

39:54Ellie Kildunne:Kayak. Got that right.

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40:28John Reynolds:This framing is that, you know, you crystallize it with the photography part of it. But I frame life. I'm actually a really keen amateur photographer myself. And I'm always taking pictures. And I get back to them. And I use them as reference points. But very much facing forwards as well. It's like when you're looking at something and being able to have that thought process. and you can tell it works so well for you. Your life's changed so much in probably the last two years from World Player of the Year 24 winning the World Cup last year. What are the sort of more unknown things, if you like, or things that have really surprised you that have come your way since?

41:03Ellie Kildunne:Yeah, there's been plenty that I keep saying the pinch-free moments and I can't use that caption anymore on Instagram because every time I'm like, it's another pinch-free moment. So, yeah, there's been loads of weird and wonderful opportunities that have come my way that I just didn't think were possible, you know. I became a Barbie doll, which... I never grew up playing with Barbies, but having female sports people in a role that is seen as really girly, the contrast is great and it also shows that you can be both and these young kids that are playing with Barbies will then see that actually there's a Barbie doll with muscles and rugby kit and that's really, really cool.

41:48Ellie Kildunne:I did the voiceover for Heathrow, so I took over the tannons for the whole of December. And that was, I mean, why me? The reason I say that is because I kept saying with my accent, I don't know if people are going to understand what I'm saying, because things like, I'll keep you kids off the trolleys. I kept saying trolleys, that doesn't, can you say trolleys when they're like, trolleys? And I was like, oh yeah no that's how i need to say it but you know little things like that or i went to the gq men's of the year awards and there was a hundred people invited and in the room there was um cynthia rebro i was like oh my god she's the one from wicked or there was i always get his name wrong the guy that did mama mia and james bond james bond pierce boseman i always call him paul Paul, you know.

42:37Ellie Kildunne:They're just sat there and I'm like, why am I here? This is, you know, I would have never expected to walk the floor that I'm walking and I'm now in this world that I am being invited to places like that and I don't really know the weight of it but I never want to know the weight of it. I never want to, maybe going back to Johnny Wilkinson, like, settle with the success because one it'll keep me pushing harder but two it'll keep making me appreciate the opportunities that I've got and I'll keep seeing joy in everything that I'm doing having opportunities like being here being on Jonathan Ross why first thing I said to to the other guests was why the hell am I here Jason Derulo sat next to me just chatting away I'm thinking should we just start singing together or something this would be fun I didn't do that I felt too nervous but they're all things that I feel like I'm talking about somebody else and I want to keep on being in that position and not get comfortable with it because I need to obviously the thing that drives all these opportunities is my rugby so that's my focus and then like I said when I look back on it I mean I'll have a very good book which these things aren't really in it because it's kind of up to the world cup but there'll be another book that I think what the hell this is cool and it'll be a really good documentary or movie and hopefully it shows to people that being a rugby player is one thing but being in the space that we are now post world cup there's this and it's bigger than it's bigger than you'll ever believe and i'm living that and it yeah it's pretty special

44:14John Reynolds:place to be i love that you're living it's so present and that you're so self-aware yeah um you know big smile on your face and you know that's sort of jason's really but i'm sitting and thinking you're a world star and and you know it but you don't know it and that there's something there's something lovely about that you know and you're you're sort of marinating in it whilst facing forward so actually it layers and you're not um awkward with it yeah you're not kind of like trying to see you embrace it but then it's like well actually i'm i think it's easy to do

44:42Ellie Kildunne:that if you you genuinely believe in talking about somebody else yeah i mean if i'm talking about somebody else i'll be the biggest hype girl if i'm talking about myself i'm like oh no

44:52John Reynolds:I'll do that for you.

44:53Ellie Kildunne:Yeah, fine.

44:54John Reynolds:Let's talk about your new book. What's it called and when does it come out?

44:58Ellie Kildunne:So it's called Game Changer and it comes out 6th or 9th of April. I can't quite remember. This is a thing. This is my brain. I just know that there's a book. It'll come out. It comes out. But it's essentially a bit of an autobiography on my life up until now. And people keep on saying, autobiography already? You're only 26. but there's so much that has happened that I want to use it as a tool to inspire and to almost like a bit of a self-help booking in a way but just through my stories in my life and hope that people can find that that helps in theirs but it talks about you know yes all the successes and the nominations like you mentioned but also the setbacks the injuries the struggles that I've that people don't know about.

45:48Ellie Kildunne:People will see what you say is on the tin. You're a world champion. And everyone thinks, God, that must have been easy. But it's an opportunity for people to understand that things don't always come easy. And, you know, some people can make it look easier than what it is. And maybe that's the beauty of having ADHD and making things look like they just work seamlessly. But it's also going through my life almost like with a fine tooth comb to deep dive into the things that I have struggled with and also how I've learned from those so that if there's anybody reading it or listening to it um the audiobook version of it they can understand that you know if it's not root a b or c it could be x y and z it doesn't matter you'll find a way and people often finish at c and say oh there's no other opportunity but so many letters in the alphabet just keep on going going it's a resilient piece it sums you

46:46John Reynolds:up right yeah exactly that's really important message i mean brilliant i can't wait to read your book or listen to it but that whole like people see the trophies people see the smiley face and you know on the on the on the show whatever it is but you battle together yeah

47:00Ellie Kildunne:and you know i mean i wouldn't ever say that i've been hard done by at all and you know it's not a book that's talking about you know really difficult upbringing I've never had any of that but I think it's a lot of things that young girls and boys struggle with and you know whether that is injury whether that is you know body dysmorphia is mentioned in the book and you know my relationship with food and how that actually ended up damaging my rugby no one knows that no one no one knows that side of me and it's an opportunity for people to understand me a little bit more but then it also talks about my relationship with coaches and my relationship with confidence in rugby and how certain things impact me both on the field and off the field and it's been really great for me to do this and it's been challenging at times you know i'm talking about things that happened years ago but i'm having to relive it so i've relived that emotion and that heartbreak

47:58John Reynolds:but self-therapy for you yeah actually probably like you know you said yourself that all the stories you'd forgotten about you're moving at such a pace right life is just but actually to stop reflect which brings that self-awareness piece in yeah i can't wait i'm not even bothered

48:11Ellie Kildunne:about selling any books because i've done the thing that for me has been so great but the great thing is it's benefited you yeah it's going to benefit so many other people and that's what i hope yeah that's what i hope that people read it and just take a slice that helps them i'm looking

48:26John Reynolds:forward to it but i've so enjoyed this conversation yeah thank you thank you buddy We'll be right back.