Frankie Brady | The Air We Ignore | Extraordinary Life Stories

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0:41AG1 is the simple daily health drink designed to deliver over 75 essential daily nutrients and pre and probiotics to support energy, digestion and mood. So you can make the most out of every decade and dance break. Learn more at drinkag1.com. You wouldn't drink a glass of dirty water, but you barely think twice about whether that is the state of the air that you're breathing. Sick building syndrome is a thing. It's where you feel like you are becoming unwell. Then you leave the space and your symptoms are alleviated. Tell me, who is Frankie Bray? She's an air quality scientist by trade turned entrepreneur.

1:18Air fryers. Big air fryer are going to come for me on this one. So we had a sensor that was in someone's home when they were using an air fryer that they weren't really cleaning that often. and then we had the same sensor go to an F1 garage. So the number of particles coming from that air fryer in the kitchen was on a par with the particles coming from the car starting up in a pit garage in F1. You breathe 22 ,000 times, 11 ,000 litres of air every day. It impacts every single organ in the human body. It's almost like another biohack, isn't it? It's something that we should all be more concerned about.

1:50In the same vein as nutrition, movement, all the rest of it, 99 % of the global population exposed to pollution levels above the WHO guidelines. Clean air should be a human right. There are things that we can do on an individual level and there are things we can do on a macro level to address these things. But nothing changes if nothing changes.

2:20Welcome. Thank you. Tell me, who is Frankie Blake? She's an air quality scientist by trade turned entrepreneur. What is an air quality scientist? Good question. So it's someone who looks at the air we breathe day to day, whether that is outdoors or indoors. My specialism was indoors. We spend so much time indoors, but it's a complete blind spot for our health. I mean, this is fascinating, right? This is something we all do. And I've been kind of looking forward and waiting for this conversation because I know I'm going to learn so much from you. And I feel like this is almost in that wellness space as well, right?

2:57There's nutrition, there's how we exercise. Where does the kind of air that we breathe fit in this as well? So I think, and to steal a Bear Grylls quote, we can survive three weeks without food, three days without water, three minutes without air. And you wouldn't drink a glass of dirty water, but you barely think twice about whether that is the state of the air that you're breathing and again to put it in more context you probably have three square meals a day eight glasses of water if you're hydrating um but you breathe 22 000 times 11 000 liters of air every day it impacts every single organ in the human body whether it's your skin your gut your mind your heart, your lungs.

3:45So it's not just something that people with asthma should be concerned about. It's something that we should all be more concerned about in the same vein as nutrition, movement, all the rest of it. Weirdly, air quality just flies under that radar. So open that up because that's now peaked my interest. Anyone watching, listening to me thinking, well, take it for granted. So let's use, for example, my day, I'm in a hotel. So I've woken up with circulated air. I've then come down for breakfast in a communal area. On a normal day, I might have had some travelling time. So I might have been in the car.

4:19I might have been on the tube. What can we do to affect that? And what's the quality of that air? So this is where it gets quite complex because there are areas that you have control over and areas that you have next to no control over. So in your home, there are certain things that you can do and manage to reduce your exposure to pollution. So we see that in 95 to 98 % of cases where people are monitoring their entire exposure profile, that 95 to 98 % of people are most exposed to pollution when they're cooking. So that is something that is in your home and you can control and manage. So we love to start there because the other stuff can be a bit scary.

5:04So when you talk about leaving your home environment and then you walk to the station, you take the train, you come into London into a hotel that you assume has decent air quality, but you can't see air. So unless you're making the invisible visible, it's really difficult to understand whether it's impacting you and how much it might be impacting you. You might feel that a room is stuffy. So sometimes if you stay in a hotel and it's not very well ventilated in the room, you might think, okay, it feels a bit uncomfortable, it's a bit too hot, a bit stuffy. and it's probably because there's just not enough air going into it but it's massively disruptive for sleep quality so for hotels it is so important to get that bit right and i know that during covid there was a lot of outrage because in hotels there was transmission from room to room because you share a ventilation system in that building and this is why it is so important to understand how air moves through a space sure so and again coming back to the home environment if you're cooking close the door to the kitchen if you can if you can compartmentalize that space that is one of the best things you can do and then increase ventilation within the kitchen turn on the extractor I know everyone hates it because it's very noisy or open windows but it's it's all these things where we need to understand how air moves through a space and ideally monitor it to make it visible so we understand what we're working with I want to come to the monitoring monitoring part but I'll just think about my own home open plan living now is a thing right people knock the walls through so when we cook at home you've got my kids are sitting on the sofa someone else could be sitting you know in a different part of the open plan room so what are the negative effects of you know what's the pollution coming from cooking depends what type of appliance you're using sure so if you have a gas stove there are going to be particles coming from the combustion So the fire that you literally create in your home, when that's burning, it releases gases, it releases particles that should be sucked up by an extractor hood.

7:03But in some cases, this extractor hood doesn't go outside. I don't know if you have one at home. And it does go outside. But a lot of people have recirculating ones. And this is why it's such an unsexy topic to talk about, because it just sounds mind numbingly boring. but there are recirculating extractor hoods where the air goes up and then it comes back out again so unless you are on top of cleaning and maintaining those component parts inside all you're doing is just churning the same dirty air back out into your home so where you've got open plan spaces yeah the kind of design desire has been there for people wanting to open up their spaces be able to have a direct line of sight to the living room from their kitchen be able to see their kids playing all that kind of nice stuff and that's why it is more important to have things that work really well in a localized area to make sure that it's being extracted and managed as as much as it can be it's very difficult because air moves it's not completely predictable so you're doing the best you can under those circumstances induction hops are better they're i think like purists don't love them because they're not great for cooking up a storm Air fryers, big air fryer are going to come for me on this one.

8:17They should be used in tandem with the extractor hood. So you should be using as much ventilation as you would on a stove. We saw one case where we had a sensor that was in someone's home when they were using an air fryer, that they weren't really cleaning that often, but they were using the air fryer and monitoring it. And then we had the same sensor go to an F1 garage. and the mass concentration of particles was comparable. So the number of particles coming from that air fryer in the kitchen was on a par with the particles coming from the car starting up in a pit garage in F1. Now, obviously, the big caveat, the composition is different, but it was just so alarming to see the consequence of not wiping down, not cleaning your air fryer.

9:00No, and also lack of awareness here. I mean, we have an air fryer at home. Yeah, my wife's got OCD, so everything's clean to sort of an interest. But that's not because she understands the danger of that, if you like, and the outcome of what you're saying. It's so interesting. Can I just ratchet back to where this passion and interest came from for you to lead into going into air? Yeah. So I studied environmental science at university and one of my professors had spoken about, you know, what do you want to specialise in? I was going to do a master's. I was going to stay on. I wasn't ready to enter the workforce.

9:35I was going to stay on at university. And he said, what would you like to specialise in? And I said, I'm not really sure. Like maybe contaminated land. All the sexy topics. Water quality, contaminated land, maybe air. And he was like, OK, well, if you do air, concentrate on air outside because it's where all the juicy policy and legislation is. Indoor air is a dark art. No one knows too much about it. And I thought, well, that's really weird because we're currently having this conversation inside. I'm about to go into a classroom, which is inside. I'm going to go back to my home, my university accommodation, and I'll probably be inside for the rest of the night.

10:10We spend 90 % of our time indoors. Why is this an under-researched topic? So at that point, I was like, well, I am locked in. I am doing indoor air quality. So that is where the passion started. And then understanding how minimal, how limited the information was on this topic was even more, was piquing my curiosity. I was like, why is that the Made you more intrigued, right? Yeah. I was like, get me involved. It was a different story when I left university because there are no jobs for indoor air quality. I mean, that's maybe growing now, but I think that's why I was encouraged by my professor to look at external air quality.

10:48You can get jobs in policy, legislation. With indoor air quality, no one's thinking about it, and therefore there are no jobs based on it. So I really struggled leaving university. It didn't kill the passion too much, but it did make me think about the fact that it's such an underrepresented area. I love the fact that you leaned into that though. You weren't put off by that. There's clearly very entrepreneurial traits early there, where someone actually gave you the advice in an older, wiser position and you went, I'm going this way. Yeah. I also remember the same professor. I said to him, OK, what should my CV look like?

11:22He said, I don't know. I've been in academia my whole life. My CV is 49 pages long. I was like right well I'm going to need some different advice because I'm not going into academia he said well I think maybe I don't know a couple of pages I was like great what should I what should I wear when I go to an interview he was like I don't know what woman should wear going to an interview and I was like that's so interesting there was very little um practical real world support I would say at university and that's where it can be this bubble that's sort of misleading it's like you go to university the world is your oyster study whatever you like the job market is there for you when you leave you'll be fine you'll land on your feet get a first get a two one even better um and I think that was yeah slightly misleading you get dropped from the kind of comfort of university and land in the real world and it is a completely different story yeah I learned literally last week there's a quarter of a trillion of debt to students uh with a six percent interest rate and there's over 700 000 grads on welfare right now not able to get a job so that word misled is something like with two daughters of my own coming through which is another reason why i wanted to speak to you because i know when we spoke before we filmed today that journey i think you went uh i think you put 100 applications and got rejected and you were almost forced into entrepreneurship which you're thriving but you were forced into that absolutely and the so yeah i was applying left right and center um just to broadly environmental services I then had to cast the net wider to management consultancy.

12:53And yeah, I got rejected from grad program after grad program. The thing is, I had the grades. They weren't the best of the best. But again, I was told that they were good. They were good grades. Applied to lots of graduate programs, did not get accepted. Applied to lots of entry-level roles. This is the one that infuriates me because they'll say entry-level role, which is misleading in itself because it's not they want one to two years experience well I don't know anyone coming out of university who has that they might have a summer internship two summer internships unless they've got the network to help them land a job immediately out of university it is incredibly difficult for people to be able to get those graduate jobs and entry level is a farce they shouldn't call it that there should be true entry level jobs and then something that is a junior level job with one to two years experience it grinds my gears.

13:48I can tell. That was your passion. And then shared by me knowing that there's this misleading kind of conversation is still going on, where ambitious kids are thinking, well, this is the path I need to go. And there's people older telling them that's what they do. And then they find themselves in your position. So what was your journey then? Because you're at that point of rejection and that point of you've got a passion for something that you want to do. You know, I imagine there's no money coming in, which forces you to take action. But what did you do? So twofold. I actually, when I was at university, I ended up going part-time so I could work alongside attending university.

14:24So I just came in, I just had a hospitality job, but it was something that kind of helped me get by. It was paying for my living whilst I was also kind of accumulating this debt, which is nothing on the scale of what it is now. I managed to get into university the last year that it was the lower fees for which I am eternally grateful. Sure. And was the reason I went to university. I wanted to take a gap year, but that wasn't, if I wanted to go to university, it was sort of then or never. So I was like, I'll take the plunge, I'll go. And then I ended up going part time so I could work on the side, get some real world experience.

14:58But also I liked earning money. I liked feeling that level of independence. I didn't have to rely on anyone else on the system on my family so I loved that aspect when I left university and I got all these rejections I also thought to myself okay well is this really what I want to do do I really want to do something in air quality by that point my spirits had been well and truly dampened so I actually I had this love for art so pet portraits making furniture I'd bung them in the back of my car, take them to Spitterfields Market or Hackney and sell them at these markets. And it was a really interesting experience because selling your wares has a different feel to it.

15:43You have created this thing and someone is willing to part with their own money to buy it. So every time I sold something, I was like, this is amazing. Was I earning a living from this? No, because the cost that I was selling them for was never going to be able to fund my life if I wanted to move out, rent, whatever. So it was great. In the process of doing that, I actually reached out to someone called Tom Faulkner. He owns a very high-end furniture brand and I reached out to him on LinkedIn, I think it was. Didn't get a response, fair enough. So I applied to a painter and finisher job could I paint or finish no so I was like I'm just gonna apply what's the worst that could happen and my cover letter and my entire CV were just I've been following you for years I think you're extraordinary I love your story of how you came from upcycling secondhand furniture through to now selling a table for 20 ,000 pounds the idea of that is beyond extraordinary to me I want to understand what your journey looked like did I want to stay in furniture and art probably not but I was so obsessed with understanding someone's journey from doing their own thing and it becoming so successful so he replied he took me to his workshop in Swindon we had Chinese food for lunch it was amazing he told me about his story and it was because of him I was like I can do this I don't know what it is but I can do this if I pick something and I believe in it enough and I hustle enough like I got to meet him understand his story He is a time-starved individual with a massive business, but he made time for me.

17:22So I'm like, okay, if I hustle hard enough, build the network, building the network is crucial, and pick something and stick to it, this can be me. And that was Aerolabs that you chose? To begin with, it was a business called Aerated. Okay. So it was, again, in air quality, and it was assessing buildings for their performance in air quality. Oh, was this the journey that we were forced to pivot because of COVID? Yes. Yes, so you went in all about the office environment and so on. And of course, suddenly with COVID, people all moved out of the office and you're there. That's a proper entrepreneurial pivot, by the way.

17:55I've said that for you because I know it, but I know that that must have been really stressful. So you've made that commitment and you've got that confidence and skill sets that you've built from hospitality, from sales, validation that you can back yourself and then you've gone all out and then you've got to change tack. And that was scary. story um so I had had a job before that just working in a startup so I had sort of seen startup culture startup life and thought yeah okay uh this is for me I like this I like the fact you wear loads of different hats I like the fact that no two days are the same I had never experienced a global economic crisis a global pandemic as part of that startup so then when I switched to becoming a co-founder of a business where the entire responsibility sits on you to make that business successful and ride the storm of this, I'll use the U words, the unprecedented crisis that was COVID.

18:53And yeah, we had built our entire business case around how do we deliver this to commercial real estate, places where people go to work. And then, oh, we're locking down for God knows how along and everyone it was a mass exodus from commercial real estate and we thought we launched um in march 2020 our formal launch three weeks before covid and i just thought we're screwed um but then immediately i was like we're not screwed we're going to be fine how do we pivot this so we managed to and it was like how basically how do we prove the quality of space that a landlord is delivering to a person in the space without the person being there because they influence the environment so like great this is what we do we go to landlords we get land grab so through a landlord we can get access to 50 100 buildings and that is what we're going to do end up being very successful and not necessarily our starting point because we had thought let's go to lots of businesses that have two offices three offices and get to them rather than the big land owners but instead we went after them and it was yeah it was a successful pivot very it was a white-knuckle ride for the first couple of months.

20:04Your back was properly against the wall. That probably made you perform, right? Yeah, because even for landlords they were thinking, well we don't know when people are gonna come back and no one's ever complained about this. That was the other thing. Well no one's asked us, so why do we need to do it? We were like, well Covid's airborne. Covid's airborne, you have a duty of care over people in your space. Let's start there. Not to mention the quantifiable benefit of healthier spaces with kind of conducive to more high-performance people. So it's brilliant because there's so much to champion there.

20:33The fact that you had the guts, the tenacity to start your own business and then put all the effort into that and then be forced to pivot and still ultimately go on to make it successful. And I want to bring the kind of female entrepreneur. And I know you've got a co-founder there at Labs, but dad to two daughters, less than 2 % of VC funding gets talked about a lot as going to women. So in context of now being in business and scaling and growing, have you even had a chance to think about the fact that you've sort of had any prejudice or anything that's in any way blocked your path as a woman in business have you noticed any of that you mentioned about what should I wear earlier just just picking up on that because the amount of women I know who have kind of smashed through glass ceilings have had that experience and I'm trying to work out if that's changing now I think there is a change in terms of my peers so people in their 30s, their 40s, they are now decision makers in VC firms.

21:35So it feels as though they look at me as a peer, not someone younger than them. So it's not the prejudice against gender and also age, which I did have previously. Now I'm rising through the ranks with my peer group. So we sort of look at each other like equals. I think there's a lot of subconscious bias. so people who look at me particularly as the co-founder who is also the ceo and i'm sure yeah age and gender do come into decision making subliminally subconsciously um very little of it i would say is blatant anymore i don't really think you get that because you can get in such bad reputational you get such bad reputational damage from kind of outwardly suggesting that a business might not be getting a funding because there is a woman involved.

22:31And I think there's a lot of businesses that are becoming more successful and are led by women. And we're able to derive the financial success down to the fact that, you know, it's led by a woman who has high emotional intelligence and creates a great culture. And I think there is there is enough body of evidence now to suggest that actually there is a massive upside to having a woman as part of the founding team if not the solo founder that helps but again the subconscious bias I think is is still there I don't think that's gone um which is deeply unfortunate but again the more we see women kind of rise through the ranks and they still have families and they're still able to execute their role I'm like well this is brilliant because 10 years ago that wouldn't have been the case if I was doing exactly the same thing 10 years ago I think it would have been really touch and go so less than two percent of VC money goes to women now I don't know what it was a decade ago it was probably much much less than one so you said that there's a role model piece there which is how I see you by the way you know and and and I I'm looking at that also through the lens of young girls that you know I found out more and more that lack of confidence and lack of you can't be what you can't see yeah so then they'll talk themselves out of not being entrepreneur, whereas, hey, look at what Frankie's doing.

23:49And that's inspirational. Yeah. And I think increasingly for young people, they are being told AI is on the rise, X, Y and Z jobs are going to be redundant in the next 10 years. So I feel for young kids at the moment, because not only are they being fed that, they're also probably crippled with lots of insecurities, as young people generally are. So they've got those two horrible things to combat at the moment but i think a lot more of them will go down the entrepreneurial route to say i like this thing i think because i understand social media i can make it work through this distribution channel i'm really excited to see the number of uh young people that end up going on to do their own thing not to um promote that over going into big corporates because big corporates need a highly productive highly skilled workforce but i think it is nice that people see an alternative route to that if they need it, if they're not built for that.

24:49Because I never felt like I was built for that. I never could really see myself, even though I sent hundreds of applications in for those exact roles, I could never really genuinely see myself sitting on a floor with lots of other people, meeting my KPIs that have been set for me by my line manager. Again, not an issue with that. I just could never see that for me. No, what I really like though, and there's a really constant theme with you, is that You've never sat back and kind of not felt sorry for yourself, but not done anything. You've actually just gone out. You wrote those letters. You took the hospitality job.

25:20You kept going. I think that's really important, particularly for youngsters, that, you know, it's about the graft. It's about the work ethic. It's about the mindset. Keep going. Keep opening doors. Keep reaching out to the guy you went and had the Chinese with that inspires you to then. You know, these are all things that you can do and you have done. During a lot of that, there would have been, there's a huge amount of work rate. there's all sorts of stuff going on for you that keeps you super busy and brings you stress. Yes. I just want to humanize you for a moment, the entrepreneur that's scaling now.

25:52You're up to the awards tonight. Yes. The Verplico Awards, which you won a couple of years ago. I did, yes. So how do you manage both your physical and your mental fitness? Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for$15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three month plan equivalent to$15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available.

26:29Taxes and fees extra. Default terms at mintmobile.com. Oh, that is a really good question because I don't think I'm great at it. This is probably not the answer that everyone out there wants to hear. They want to be inspired. What I'm about to do is humanize myself. So I know that there are certain things that I love to do that just take me away from work. So you're right. Being an entrepreneur means you are on it and you are on it basically 24-7. But you need to find and carve out time where you're just not burdened by it. Yes. So what I love to do is like rather than, and this is promoting two things at once, is that last kind of half hour of the day before I go to sleep, I just read.

27:12And I don't read zero to one. You know, these entrepreneurial books. No, I'm done. I'm done for the day. I'm done with being an entrepreneur. I just want to be Frankie again. So I'm like lying there, chatting to my husband, and then I'll read a book for a bit. But a completely trivial book. It's not anything deep. It's not anything meaningful. It's just trivial. Take me away from it. Yeah. Because I think, I mean, I read something the other day about what does it mean to truly like decompress truly take time out and it's not just going to a different place but still struggling mentally to be able to disconnect it you need quality time so if it's you know half an hour every night that could be better than taking a long weekend for example if all you're doing on that long weekend is constantly worrying about what's coming up when you get back from that long weekend so i think the mental part of it is so important physically i mean i love a walk yeah it gets my steps in um i love a walk i love a class because you have someone barking orders at you and they're watching you so like why aren't you pulling away and i'm like okay yep fine and it again it just completely detaches me from all the emails and partnerships and replies i need to get back to so i love it it's like there are moments within the day it tends to be like the last half an hour of the day in the first 15 minutes of the day where i just pretend like I'm not the CEO of a startup.

28:33Sure. No, it's invaluable. Exactly. Yeah. And it's healthy. So yeah, physically I'm trying to be better. I mean, I don't, it's difficult sometimes to get rid of the guilt of taking time out of the day to go for a walk. That I still struggle with years on from starting this entrepreneurial journey. I still struggle with that. I'm like, I should make time. You never regret it though, do you? I never regret it. It's like the gym workout or whatever, I know. Yeah. And we've got to bring this back to air. You're walking outside. Precisely. Now, that's a key thing. So we're in central London right now.

29:07Yeah. I will go for a walk and I'll try and get to Regent's Park or Green Park because I feel like I'm ultimately away from the fumes and all the congestion, if you like. But can we just bring that back to where we get the best air and perhaps where we get the worst air? You mentioned the cooking. Yes. But when we are out walking and we're walking next to a road, you know, there's sort of science that says that the fumes are low down and so on. You must know all about this. This is me having picked it up along the way. You probably know more than me. But where should I walk and where should I not walk?

29:39Because I want to feel like I'm getting that health kick. But now we're back to the air. So walking on the inside, I mean, this is predicated on how wide the pavement is, but walking on the inside of the pavement is better than walking on curbside. It makes that much difference. It makes a difference. Okay. So whether it is significant or not depends on how big the pavement is. And you're right that with fumes, they do generally sit quite low down. Okay. On a windy day, there's high dispersion. So it basically means that the pollutants kind of just fly away quite easily when it's nice and windy.

30:11The problem is when they stay low and you have things like prams with a child inside who is right at tailpipe level, basically. kind of sucking in those kids exactly it is not great i'm surprised there aren't more inventions to try and kind of uh shelter a child in that situation um but yeah walking on the inside of the curb rather than curbside is good practice ideally so my brother has just had a baby well he hasn't his wife did keep that in yes um and I said to them okay when you've got two routes to the station one of them is through lots of houses lots of like nice residential roads but trees have sort of uprooted the pavement so with a pram it's a little bit difficult but it's better for air quality on the main road walk it's a lot quicker and it's got really nice walking routes for a pram So they put the rain cover on sometimes when the traffic is heavy, when they know that the pollution is bad outside, which you can only know from monitoring.

31:18There are certain things you can do to reduce exposure both from your perspective, but also your family's perspective. Sure. And then taking a side street can cut your exposure by up to 50%. Wow. So basically get away from the road. Basically, yeah. From the inside to the outside of the pavement to then side street to then get into a park. And then it's dramatically. dramatically different because even just it's the proximity to things like if you put a building in the way of you in the traffic perfect because it's just blocking it and to a point uh vegetation barriers so bushes hedges they're also very good um but just as much distance as you can feasibly get so for example i've got one route for myself to get to the train station from my house it's on the main road there is nothing that i can do apart from walk on the inside hold your breath so I do the best I can I get a little pace on walk faster on that bit yeah hold my breath every now and again I had to walk from here actually to Paddington which is a sort of 10 minute walk here in Marlebone and there's just one hell of a busy road to get there and I felt myself walk much faster and this was last night so I knew I was talking to you this morning and I actually felt myself almost like kind of not hold my breath but just like I want to get this done because this doesn't feel this doesn't feel good but I'm not aware of it I'm not actually you know this is the thing And so can I ask you, where would, outside of cooking, where would we be least aware that you would give me a surprise where I, you know, I ultimately am breathing in really bad air?

32:43So one, and this is a very recent example. So this was on the weekend. I just went for a catch up with my friend in a cafe. I always have my sensor on me because I am who I am. And I took it to the cafe, didn't think much of it, looked at my data at the end of the day. the minute I walked into that cafe and the minute I left, between that time, the air quality was awful. But I wouldn't, even I, who I think about air more than most people, even I wouldn't have thought that that environment I was in was bad. There wasn't a huge amount of cooking. So it's difficult to discern what the source was, but I can see in the data that there was something alarming going on and there were people in there again with young children are just meeting up for brunch with their kids so it was one of those environments where I thought a lot of the perception around indoors is that you go inside and you're sheltered you close the door and all the bad stuff is outside but there are I mean there's a statistic that says the indoor environment can be up to two to five times more polluted than the outdoor now obviously depends on the setting It depends what activities are taking place.