From Set D to CEO: Liam Condon CEO of Johnson Matthey on Extraordinary Life Stories

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0:42Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Young people think life lasts forever and I grew up with this kind of eerie sense that life can be really short so you got to make the absolute most of every single opportunity and that kind of growing up surrounded by death that really inspired me just to make the most of everything. Who is Liam Condon?

1:18I'd say I'm an Irish globetrotter, a family man, a businessman and a sportsman. You've taken me to that place where you were in set D and effectively probably not feeling like you can amount to much because of how the system had made you feel. Yeah. To now be the CEO of Johnson & Mathieu. Yeah. Puts your 250 company. Yeah. I had to attend Saturday school to try and keep it up with the D class. And that was a very demotivating experience. And at some stage, my parents said, this isn't really working out with this school. Move me to another school. Suddenly, I found I was seen. I was heard. In their language, I would have become an A student.

1:58And the learning for me was with the right environment, anybody can develop into anything. And everybody has tons of talent. The lad that was in set D, what advice would you give him or her as a youngster looking and wanting to be the CEO of a FTSE 250 company?

2:27Welcome. Thank you, John. Great to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Who is Liam Condon? I'd say I'm an Irish globetrotter, a family man, a businessman and a sportsman in that kind of priority. Really, Gwyns? And I think as I was growing up, there was two episodes in my life that really shaped my thinking and kind of contributed to what I've become today. one of them was at school very early stage experience in those days in our school in Dublin in Ireland you were graded according to your ability so all the A students were in the A class and B and C and D and I was in the D class and that was the bottom of the D class and I had to attend Saturday school to to try and keep it up with with the D class and that was a very demotivating experience and at some stage my parents said this this isn't really working out with this school moved me to another school with much less kids probably better quality teachers and suddenly I found I was seen I was heard and from that day on I just flourished and in their language I would have become an A student but the learning for me was with the right environment anybody can develop into anything and everybody has tons of talent and that stuck with me for life so I've always been on a kind of a mission to try and help create the right environment so that people can develop their potential that that was one thing that really struck me stuck with me so it really shaped me and about who I am and the other one is my father was a the grand name was a monumental sculptor and basically carves tombstones so so third generation tombstone carver and this was a family business and I helped out all the time with that business as a kid so he spent summers kind of always out in the cemetery cleaning up the tombstones and carrying out tombstones and repairing broken ones and when you grow up kind of on a cemetery you're surrounded by death all the time i think as young people think life lasts forever and i grew up with this kind of eerie sense that life can be really short so you got to make the absolute most of every single opportunity and that kind of growing up surrounded by death that really inspired me just to make the most of everything that they're the two things i'd say shaped how i kind of what i became i'm going to enjoy this conversation that's fascinating Is it because people could be listening thinking, you grew up around death, how morbid, how depressing.

5:21You lit up because you reframe it and go, well, actually, you embrace the fact that we all die. Yes, yes. So actually then, you know, life's for living. And so you've had that attitude from really young. Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, you go around a cemetery, you know, so we'd say customers coming in, families buying tombstones at the time. Sometimes they're 95. Sometimes it's a two-year-old kid. And it's just, you see the span. and you just realize you do not know how long you're going to be on this earth. So you better make it. And my father instilled that in me as well. Make the most of every opportunity you have because life can be very short.

5:59And as a kid, as I say, most people think life lasts forever. You've got lots of time. I always felt time is short. You've got to make the most of it. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel maybe. or white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Where is Daredevil? I'm right here. Don't miss the return of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. So what's next? I've been liberated. We're going to take this city back.

6:35Over-Medicated. In an all-new season, now streaming only on Disney+. They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with them. Nobody gives you out. This should be tons of fun. Marvel Television's Daredevil, Born Again, now streaming only on Disney+. Don't take anything for granted, right? Yeah, yeah. So that kid that was in set D, but then it's really inspiring to hear that you changed your environment and then you ultimately were able to flourish. Yeah. Talk to you about then that career, the trajectory, if you like, the decision-making you made to go into the corporate world.

7:10Yeah. So having grown up in a family owned business, I always had a penchant for business. So I helped out with my father's business from a young age and found that fascinating. So I always loved business and I always knew I'd go into business. My father advised me at the time, it was very good advice. everything him and his nine brothers did, it was all manual labour and he could see that technology, particularly laser technology, was going to revolutionise how tombstones are made and that that wouldn't be the future for me. That business that he owned was not going to be the future. So it was difficult for him but he said like I'd really love you to be the fourth generation but there's no point you've got to go to university you've got to learn some some new skills and then do what you want with your life and for me it was clear I'm going to study business I studied business I was always interested in languages and come growing up in Ireland I was convinced if you if you want to do business Ireland's a bit small and it'd probably be helpful to learn a couple of other languages so you'd have a bigger opportunity.

8:29I got a scholarship to go to Germany in Berlin when the wall was still there in Berlin. And I liked that experience so much that I ultimately applied to the only company, multinational company that was based in Berlin, which was a company called Sharing Pharmaceutical Company. and the reason there was no other multinationals in Berlin was because of the wall. Everyone was afraid that the Russians might come in at some stage and expropriate all the assets. So there was only one multinational that said, we'll take that risk. And so for me it was an easy choice. I wanted to go back to Berlin. I wanted to work there, but there was only one multinational, so I applied to them and they took me.

9:17That was the heavy thinking that went into my career. the start of my career. So a bit of serendipity. Yeah. I played to you. I want to fast forward to the current role now because I'm still so... You're taking me to that place where you're in set D and effectively probably not feeling like you can amount to much because of how the system had made you feel. Yeah. To now be the CEO of Johnson & Matthew. Yeah. FTSE 250 company. Yeah, yeah. That's not where the young kid was feeling like I could go. Yeah. So the decision-making, the awareness that you clearly got from this pressure you put on time, has evolved into someone basically that had the ambition as well as the credentials to do this role.

10:03Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I'd say, I mean, I didn't start out life saying I wanted to be a CEO. It was actually never the plan. when I joined that company sharing originally I thought I'll do it for a couple of years get a good training and then I'll start my own company because it's coming from this family business type mentality entrepreneurial so I want to run my own business and there was two problems one was I never had the idea about what I should start a business to be an entrepreneur you need the idea I never had the idea. And the other problem or opportunity was the companies where I was, they kept promoting me.

10:49So it was kind of interesting to stay around. You were a victim of your own success. And I just developed then in the corporate world. And as I say, I never had the ambition to be a CEO. But I did always want to run my own business. And now, ironically, I'd say kind of run my own business on behalf of the shareholders. So that's where we land. that's inspiring because there's a number of people that aspire to be an entrepreneur but they can't think of the idea you can actually get the satisfaction and the lifestyle the the money that can come with that if you like and the fulfillment through being a natural leader yeah but within the corporate environment yeah yeah yeah yeah it's good to hear yeah and i mean it's uh i think in the corporate environment company like johnson matthew you've got thousands and thousands of employees, that's an awful lot of people where you can help them develop, grow.

11:45So your impact is in the corporate world, if you play it right,

11:49Liam Condon:your impact can be incredibly positive. Equally, if you're a poor leader, it can be pretty negative. So go back to the beginning and the roots. I've always seen it as my job then in that corporate world to shape an environment where people can develop. because if people are growing in the company, business is going to be growing. That's just a fundamental belief that I have. And I've got to help make sure our people are growing so they can grow our business. People at that heart of it? And you're running people? Of course. Everything is people. Say at the end of the day, if you're CEO of a company, you're one person with 10 ,000 employees maybe and a former job had 50 ,000 employees.

12:34Liam Condon:That's a lot of people. You can't interact with all those people. It's maybe 100, 150 that you can really influence. But you can set the system, you can set the standards within that corporate world and create that environment that you're just constantly nourishing talent and allowing people to develop and to grow up in that environment and to become the next generation leaders. And that, again, I think if you do that successfully, the business is going to be looking after itself because if you've got great people and you've given them the right parameters, the right steering, good things will happen in the company.

13:14That's brilliant. We were connected by Steve Tappin. Yeah, yeah. And his whole thing's around self-awareness and, of course, leadership. Yeah, yeah. And that self-awareness there and that selflessness as a leader, as a CEO of a company of the size, it's so clear that you are someone that nurtures and mentors. And although you would have had that from your upbringing with your father, it feels like that's something you carry through right now and will continue, always learning how to be the best leader you can. What have you learned the most? What is the most important facets of leadership you can share?

13:51I guess, I mean, one thing that has been ingrained in me from an early stage, but I think it's actually very important as a leader, is humility. you've got I think you can never take yourself too seriously or think you're above others as

14:11Liam Condon:a leader hierarchically you might be but the moment that you start treating other people as you're better than them you're never going to help them develop their true potential so for me that humility aspect is absolutely key. I think self-awareness is crucial. At the end of the day you've got an incredible amount of demands on your time and your energy as a CEO and you've got to be highly conscious of what gives you energy and what drains you, what takes your energy and you've got to as far as possible make sure you're always moving towards those things that give you energy because that's where you're going to be real that's where you can add the most value and the things that drain you you find people who love that stuff and delegate it to them and then and then you'll be in good shape then you can look after yourself if you can keep yourself in in good shape you'll be able to be a good leader for others so they're just somewhat say it says some of the facets i think that's important thank you for sharing that and talking about looking after yourself there's countless self-development self-help books on success and being a being a leader that let's talk about an early morning routine getting up at four in the morning running your mouth and i know fitness and sports important to you but i want to know almost where that fits in terms of how you um prioritize the work and ultimately then the engine that's you to looking after yourself what works for you yeah i i think um um And one thing important, one of the most important leadership trainings I went on once was actually about finding out your own personal purpose in life.

15:57Liam Condon:And the hypothesis was like everybody knows their company purpose. Very few people know their own individual purpose because they don't do the introspective self-awareness exercise in a structured way. and I did that over three days with psychologists and you start out with 10 pages of everything that's important to you and where you're good and where you're not so good and then the essence is to boil it down into something like three words that are your purpose something that resonates deeply with you and for me what came out was inspiring healthy growth as my personal purpose and the inspiring piece came from that desire to help others to nurture and the healthy growth is because health for me personally is really important and growth is really important and it's at it's at multiple levels it's a personal level and I want to be constantly learning there's an element to growth there I need to be physically fit to to to also be able to be mentally fit and there's a family aspect to that encouraging healthy growth for the family there's a company aspect i want my my company to have sustainable growth and there's a societal aspect what are you doing to encourage healthy growth in society so all of that is kind of embedded in what i say is my personal purpose and with that health and looking after yourself is for me fundamental and I don't I'm not able to have like a military routine that I'd say I get up at four every morning for a simple reason my schedule is pretty diverse put it lightly some some late nights some dinners and and things so if it's a late night it's unlikely I'm going to get up at four in the morning because I need to make sure I'm getting enough rest if I'm not getting enough rest I'm not going to be productive so I'll get up then at a normal time on that morning and then I'll go for my run or my sports that evening instead but it's a religious point for me that I gotta make time a to do some kind of sports whether it's running or gym and b that I'm getting enough sleep and because that's I think that's the real killer if you're not getting enough sleep you can't stay on top of a job like a CEO.

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19:04A Dutch waffle with spiced syrup in the middle. Is it sweet? Yes. Perfect for a snack or dessert. Mmm, delicious. Get answers on the go without interrupting your flow. Ray-Ban Meta. Iconic style meets Meta AI. available at Walmart and other authorised retailers. No, I get that. And that pressure that goes with, you know, being the CEO. Yeah. How do you deal with that? Well, that's where actually running is, I'd say, why it's so important for me. I've been a runner almost all my life. I'm a passionate marathon runner, ultra marathon runner. Kind of the longer the distance, the better. I'm not super fast on short differences.

19:49distances but I don't slow down so the longer the race the higher the probability that I can actually win it so and I still compete at a kind of an age group category at a national level

20:00Liam Condon:so so it's it's really important um that that that that overall ability that's your release that that's my release because there is pressure that goes with the CRO and when I when I uh if I come out of let's say a two-day board meeting like just recently i've got a ton of stuff in my head if i was to go to bed i can't sleep there's too much stuff i'll go for a run and it's all gone and it's all been resolved and i can sleep very peacefully so for me dealing with pressure is is i use running as almost as a say yoga almost it's it's it's a coping mechanism it's your filing system isn't it as you're running you are just you're compartmentalizing it's the jigsaw puzzle yeah and i can feel that yeah big problems become very small after all that's important i think that's the key isn't it it's finding what works for you and making sure that then that's implemented yeah i want to bring ai into the conversation because you'll be using it personally the business will be using it and we've i've really enjoyed the fact that this part of the conversation has been really people-led.

21:10There's a lot of people worried about AI replacing their jobs and removing a certain amount of that personal touch that you've got as a person, as a leader. Where do you sit with that? Yeah, it's a really tough one because I think there's no blueprint out there right now. There's not a lot of learning by doing about how a human, if you think about me,

21:36Liam Condon:us, we're probably the last generation of purely human workforce. I mean, we use computers, but we take all the decisions by ourselves or have had to date. That is rapidly changing, particularly with agentic AI and decisions are being delegated to a system where hopefully the parameters have been set up properly. It's more and more about how do you create teams that can work to humans and tech that can work together in a synergistic way for sure that roadmap is not very clear right now I think you can see that the consequences at multiple levels a lot of entry-level jobs are being eliminated because the grunt work that typically young people get to learn the job that's all done by by AI nowadays a lot of the the lab work that we would have scientists doing can be simulated now by AI and we got to find that I think a way and that humans are in the lead and but using technology then to take better decisions increase productivity whatever it's going to be but if it's this if it's a system that's solely dependent on AI and companies lose the heart and soul of having humans around there's not gonna be much left That's going to be a pretty cold world.

22:58It's a pretty scary place to imagine as well. I mean, Johnson & Mathie, it's a 200-year-plus British business. Yeah. And so they've got their traditional way of doing things. Yeah. So in this last few years and right now, there's never been tech advancements quicker than they are right now. Yeah. How's that being implemented into the business? Yeah, I'd say at multiple levels. We're a big innovation company.

23:25Liam Condon:we're a sustainable technology company so we do a lot of research and development and that would be a classic area where there's a lot of testing simulating a lot of laboratory work before we'll develop a new product could take us seven to ten years to develop it like pharmaceuticals because you've got to get regulatory approval often for different types of products it takes a long time to develop products. What we've seen is with the power of AI today, we can do a lot of simulations. We don't need as long to see what kind of combinations of different materials would make most sense and would result in the best efficacy and the lowest cost.

24:13Liam Condon:So there's plenty of use cases that are definitely improving or accelerating our ability to innovate in R &D. There's uses in back office, kind of finance, HR, and there's a lot of use cases. Probably some of the most exciting ones will be around the commercial front, how you interact with customers, how you target, how you price, how you select customers. So there's no lack of use cases, I think. But I would classify us still as a company that's in the exploratory phase. And probably AI is most embedded in R &D on our side, simply because we are an innovation company and you can see the clear advantages of AI in that space.

25:11Liam Condon:Of course. Versus other areas where maybe you don't need AI. It's enough to automate stuff or just use normal tech. Of course. Not everything needs to be AI. AI can be very expensive as well. Yeah, so you're prioritizing where you know it's most relevant, if you like. Yeah. We connected over a human level and the leadership scenario with Steve. Yeah. But I've been really interested to learn more about Johnson Matthew. And for anyone watching and listening, I mean, I can't believe the size of it. And it's not a company I was really aware of. So can you just sort of maybe explain in your words what the company does and just how big it is?

25:47Yeah, yeah, sure. So it's, I mean, 208 years old.

25:52Liam Condon:And it really started out assaying gold for the king of England. So if gold, which was the real currency at the time, if gold had the Johnson-Matthew stamp, it was real. If it didn't have a Johnson-Matthew stamp, it was not real. Wow, it was the kite mark. So it was on behalf of the king then doing this assaying. That was the start of the business. So, and gold is a, it's a precious metal and you need deep chemical chemistry skills and understanding to be able to assay properly and to be able to figure out is that real gold or not. So that was the start of the company and that's been the red thread up until today.

26:39Liam Condon:We're a world leader in precious metals, particularly focused on platinum group metals. and we build products that use these precious metals. We recycle them because they're worth a fortune and they never deteriorate. You can use them forever. You just need to keep taking them back when the stuff that's around them has been spent and then we take them back, we recycle them and we trade precious metals on behalf of our customers. We'll hold the metal because you need a lot of security behind this. So we have a circular business model and a classic example of a big business for us would be automotive catalysts.

27:21Liam Condon:So you've got toxic fumes coming from the engine, you use precious metal laden automotive catalyst and you get clean air coming out the other side. That's a classic one. We build that automotive catalyst. When the carburetor is spent, we'll recycle that and we'll manage those metals for the customers. That's kind of what we do. who say billions and billions of pounds. But it's actually in the UK, it's a real strategic asset. If you think of where the world is today, almost every country in the world has now a critical mineral strategy because they're concerned about over-dependence on any one country.

28:04Liam Condon:And often critical minerals only come from one country, China or South Africa or Russia or somewhere else and almost everything we do is recycled so we have an eternal loop of product going around and we're not dependent on other countries to that extent and this asset is based in the UK so it's actually something that's strategically it's globally relevant but strategically for the UK is actually really important. It's great to hear I sort of feel proud to be British suddenly because there's so much bad news and doom and gloom going on and really sort of depressing stories in business but this is this is a proper success story isn't it yes yeah and for 208 years with ups and downs as you can imagine i mean a company like johnson matthew has been through good times and bad times um but if you're 208 years old there's a bit of a built-in resilience in the dna of the company because lots of people have seen so much and we have a lot of long-term employees who've been with us 30 40 years a lot of loyalty a lot of trust and that's really important that's that's something you can build up yeah that will ripple through the the culture of the company and humanizing this back to you you're clearly on a journey yeah you've been kind enough to share the early journey we're talking right now mid-2026 yeah what's your kind of legacy play what do you see is the next part of your journey that you'd like to achieve yeah so um my my full focus is making the most of of the johnson matthew opportunity and helping as many people as possible there develop and that's that's that's that will fulfill me for for for quite a while i think um eventually what's inevitable is um i will at some stage transition out of the the executive role and then become a non-executive director then advising other boards I am already a non-executive director on Halma PLC and in that role you you support and challenge the executive team to help develop their business and you do that with a bit of an impartial view because you're outside the company and you bring all your experience and your network and you try and help that company grow.

30:30Liam Condon:So I have a board of non-executives who support me and then the chair and who all support the executive team and challenge the executive team and that's something that over time will inevitably as you transition out of the executive world I would see that as a natural evolution to move into that non-executive role where you can continue to contribute, share your experience, share your network, and help people and organizations grow in a different capacity than the exec capacity, but with the same mission to help grow. Experience a membership that backs your business journey with American Express Business Platinum.

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31:55Thinkorswim is available on desktop, web, and mobile to meet you where you are. It's built by the trading obsessed to help you trade brilliantly. Learn more at schwab.com slash trading. The younger version of you, again, the lad that was in set D to now being where you are now, with all the perspective and maturity that you've got sitting here yeah what advice would you give him or her as a youngster looking and wanting to be the ceo of a footsie 250 company say first listen to your parents they got good advice um i think the biggest the most important piece of advice that i ever got um was really to manage my energy and not my time um that i think earlier in my career I was I felt very busy but I didn't feel fulfilled and I was I was trying to manage my time as efficiently as possible and doing as many things as possible and I had a fantastic mentor who kind of coached me and said you

33:01Liam Condon:really got to manage your energy and that that element of figuring out what gives you energy and where you can help others and and trying to keep away or delegate to others those things that drain you that completely freed me up um and i think the more people can um let's say think about that think deeply about what gives you energy what drains you and rather manage that in your life as opposed to the time and the clock then life will be good everything will be one yeah it goes back to the the kind of upbringing you had where you put that pressure of time on you because you were around death. Yeah, yeah.

33:44We've run out of time, but I look forward to this conversation and I've so enjoyed it. Liam, whatever you have. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you. Very nice. Thank you. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for$15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at MintMobile.com slash switch.