James Golding | Beating Cancer Twice: Resilience, Purpose & Perspective | Extraordinary Life Stories

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0:42Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Success isn't always deemed by where you finish but from where you started. Some people will finish further up the ladder but if they started further up the ladder in the first place, have they really been successful? Tell me, who is James Golding? I'm James Golding and I'm an inspirational speaker, endurance cyclist, two-time cancer survivor, husband and dad.

1:20What represents a challenge to you now? Because you have beaten cancer twice, you've been knocked off a bike but now you're probably the best version of yourself because of what you've gone through. Without a shadow of a doubt and I've been criticised for saying it previously and I completely understand why but in many ways cancer was the best thing that ever happened to me. I went from 14 stone to 6, I lost the ability to walk, I had less than 5 % chance of survival, went through recovery and had to do the dance again. All the things that we go through shape us, it depends on how we reflect on those things And when I got back into the house and started to get better, I started to unpack everything.

1:57And I started to find Mont Blanc pens, tag oil watches, expensive suits that I'd owned because of what I did for a living. I didn't remember owning any of them. I hadn't missed any of them. All of a sudden they were irrelevant.

2:24welcome how are you very well i'm looking forward to this conversation thanks for having me it's good to be here tell me who is james golding very good question sometimes i question it but um i'm james golding and i'm an inspirational speaker endurance cyclist two-time cancer survivor um alongside being a husband and dad and i'm sure there's some other bits in there somewhere along the line as well we'll unravel them now i think there's an underlying word i've being able to sort of watch and listen and talk to you before we filmed, they were resilience. And I wonder how you would flip that back to me, the sort of younger version of James, to the very kind of mature, calm James that's sitting in front of me now.

3:07How have you changed? I think if I look back, I think the resilience has always been there. I think there's a number of people that I know that would watch this and go, calm? Like, seriously? Like, really? certainly Louise and my kids would be turning around going our house is mental but I think I've always I think I've always had that resilience being told you never achieve anything to then wanting to prove everybody wrong and being told you can't do something. I want to ask you something about the fact that the kid that was at school that didn't get on with school and was probably written off told you know you're not going to amount to anything and that person that loves a challenge to now have a business that works with you know proper world leaders in business that you have that camaraderie with and and equal respect if you like because of who you are and what you've achieved i just wonder how that feels to you i kind of like being able to turn around to young people and say look i was told i would never achieve anything but i don't think it's uncommon i think if you look around at a lot of the people that have been successful i don't class myself as being hugely successful.

4:19I class myself as I've done all right. You know, I'm not, you know, I'm not shouting from the rooftops. My biggest, my aim in life is to be able to support my family, to be able to live in a nice house, to be able to maintain a relatively decent car and to be able to go on holiday. You know, yes, would I like the grandeur and everything else that comes with it i'm not sure i'm not sure i would and to be fair i mean that's just it sparked something else that i remember when i came out of hospital sorry i'm digressing a little bit here but i remember when i came out of hospital so when i went into hospital i was living in a flat which my dad owned and the house that i had was rented out as bedsits because of because of me being ill my mum asked everybody to move out of the house because she couldn't go and collect the rent on a regular basis and she moved everything from the flat back into the house and when I got back into the house and started to get better I started to unpack everything and I started to find Mont Blanc pens, Tag Heuer watches, expensive suits that I'd owned because of what I did for a living.

5:28I didn't remember owning any of them, I hadn't missed any of them all of a sudden they were irrelevant they were so important in that life leading up to that point that you know yes I've got a nice watch but I've got a friend that helped me out getting that watch you know yes I drive a relatively nice car but at the same time until six months ago I drove a VAT you know and they though all of a sudden these things that created this person were and important yes it's nice to be able to go actually i proved you all wrong not because of what i've got but because i didn't turn out the way you thought i would i think that's inspiring because there's kids that and i can relate that that in any one way didn't fit the academic one size fits all and therefore you're you're sort of resisting you're trying to you know um your interests are elsewhere than learning algebra and how to use a bunsen burner and yet you're mixing and sharing a stage with the CEO of a FTSE 100 company and so on and they're looking at you as someone they can learn from yeah and I think that's that's an inspirational piece that yeah I think it's I think it's important to to kind of again back to the younger generation thing I think it's important to kind of try and instill in them that it's you know success isn't always deemed by where you finish but from where you started because you know okay some people will finish further up the ladder but if they started further up the ladder in the first place have they really been successful but if you started back here and you've made it you've made it further than they have relatively speaking who's more of a success huge amount of growth that's gone in climbing that ladder correct great analogy you know so um i don't think we can go all the way you know he finished there so he's more successful than that person and i think that's quite you know we we need to just kind of talk to the younger generation a little bit more about that yeah it would be helpful if schools made it easier for like the guy we were just talking to a minute ago to be able to go in i did a lot of when i when we were in the uk i did a lot of trying to get into schools to do speaking sessions about the fact that i left at 14 and adversity and overcoming those things and it was so hard to be able to do it so hard to be able to do it you're saying look just let me in to do an assembly and they they wouldn't allow it or or there were so many barriers that you couldn't just be able to, and I'm not suggesting that you just let anybody into a school to do a speaking session.

7:57No, but you have a track record, you have a reputation. But at the same time, how do we get this voice in front of these younger people? Yeah, a friend of mine said on a video we did once, James will tell you he's going to do something. If you tell him he can't, he's not the kind of person that will tell you that he can. He'll just go and do it. So there's no fanfare. There's no fuss. That's the calm bit I'm picking up on. There's no ego that needs to be fueled by attention. You'd rather just go and make it happen and then ultimately be like there you go yeah proved i could do it yeah which is actually comes back to doing it for yourself rather than any external validation there's a part that always would like the validation but there's also the element that doesn't want it because it doesn't know how to deal with it like people say to me you know well done on everything you've done and i don't see that i've done anything different to anybody else would do in my situation if i've been through you know i think if anybody was put in the situation that i was put in when i was poorly anybody would fight to survive it i get that although interesting enough there are there's that's a mindset thing because there are people that slip the other way you know and i've been around people that have overcome you know injuries um illness and have been around other other people they've shared a wall rib and so on and they've watched the light go out in the eyes they describe So that's something that's built into you.

9:17From my personal experience, I think that at some point in time, coming through trauma of some sort, I think everybody goes through the different phases at some point. I think the people that bounce and come back very happy, buoyant and energetic at some point will crash. As in, will then have to deal with that situation at some point. and I think that there's some people that crash instantly and then find their way back. They don't always find their way back up to a different level but I think everybody will go through two phases at some point within that recovery process. Yeah, I like that analogy.

10:01That's a good point. It's different for everybody and of course time plays a big part into that. It might be that you can allow yourself to recover or in a certain situation you actually have to take action and move really quickly. On that validation, Solomon, is you a world record holder? I was. I'm not anymore, but I was a world record holder, yes. I was the first British rider to hold the Guinness seven-day world record for most amount of miles cycled in seven days in 2017. I'm still going to say congratulations because that's hard graft, right, to have achieved that. Yeah, it was hard. I want to open that up in terms of what represents the challenge to you now, because you have beaten cancer twice.

10:44You've been knocked off a bike by a truck and suffered injuries from that. You were telling me earlier about getting COVID the fittest in your life, ready for a race you trained for mentally, physically ready, and then COVID takes you out. So that resilient piece, and where I'm going with it is the recognition of the resilience you've got, the strength you've now got, which I will call calm. I will call there's a vibe coming off you that's really quite magnetic and almost match that where, you know, you feel like you could take anything on now. And I'm wondering how that's changed from a younger version either, we're still competitive, still taking on a challenge, but now you're probably the best version of yourself because of what you've gone through.

11:55only on Disney Plus. Oh, without a shadow of a doubt. I wouldn't be where I am now. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. I wouldn't have done the things that I'd done had I not have been ill, had I not gone through what I went through. I would usually put a lot more context to it and I've been criticised for saying it previously and I completely understand why, but in many ways, Cancel was the best thing that ever happened to me. It wasn't at the time. I went from 14 stone to six I lost the ability to walk I had less than five percent chance of survival and then and then went through recovery and had to do the dance again not as bad but I think those are all things all the things that we go through shape us it depends on how we reflect on those things and how we kind of as we were saying earlier I'm I'm very reflective I kind of look at what's gone on before to enable me to move forwards.

12:54I think the resilience that I can show on a bike and doing the things that I do in terms of speaking engagements, in terms of riding a bike long distances, hot temperatures, cold weather's not really my friend. But I then battle with that resilience when it comes to arranging those things. So in terms of getting the sponsors that we need and creating those relationships sometimes they're the they're the kind of the behind the scenes battles that I have um whereas you put me in a situation of I think if you put me in a situation of um trauma I become calm it's like that that analogy you know um somebody that's dyslexic or ADHD can't send an email but you send them into chaos and all of a sudden they just...

13:46Time slows down. Yeah, that's me. Interesting. Yeah, that's me. Someone I've got a lot of respect for, who filmed with me early on the journey of Extraordinary Stories, asked me why I'd asked him to film. And I said, I find you so interesting. I find, you know, if I tip you upside down and all the knowledge that comes out of you, the lived experience, I've learned so much from him. He said, it's because I've got loads of scars. And it made me think of you because I know you're physically scarred, is what you're going through. But of course, then there's the mental side. But his point was actually the scars are...

14:22There's a reflection element. So actually, there's a memory there. There's trauma that was endured and then healed. And then there's the lessons learned from it. And he said they make far more interesting people. Yeah. And I don't know how you feel about that. But that's... No, I'd agree. I would definitely agree. You literally got battle scars. yeah i mean yeah quite literally um but again another another conversation earlier on today was you know if you if you look back at all of those scenarios leaving school at 14 being told you'd never achieve anything um you know i mean it's not it's not so common now but my mum and dad split up when i was very very young and out of a class full of 30 kids there was only two of us in the class whose parents weren't together you know so there was these little things and that's not you know don't get me wrong I'm not I'm not trying to turn around and go my childhood woe is me I'm just saying there's all these little things over time that build us up to who we are um and yeah I mean physically I've got a lot of scars um I've got a lot of scar tissue um and you know they they they are all things that you look back on and go well actually if I went through that you know when I talk about my challenges here's another example of it when I talk about my challenges and we talk about cycling across America or we talk about race across America or the seven day world record or what I'm planning on doing this year and you kind of go okay and as I say to other fundraisers that I work with if you're doing something for charity so you're going to run the London Marathon or you're going to ride Landon to John O 'Groats or London to Paris what you have to remember is that you're going to go through an element of let's call it suffering for 24 hours three days seven days or whatever that is if you're doing that for charity the people that you're doing that for they go through every single day they don't get to cross a finish line they don't get to go and have a beer and a steak or a bite to eat sit there pat themselves on the back and go look what we did and go back to work tomorrow they have to go through it day in day out so i've got this subconscious that always goes actually you weighed six stone and couldn't lift your own head off the pillow so even if reflection again which is the reflection so even race across america which um was 2024 crashed between time station 44 and 45 broke three ribs rebroke my hand my neck had stopped working there's videos of me riding my bike holding the handlebars with a broken hand and holding my chin up because i know that once i finish and i have something to eat then i'm going to be all right i play to you but that's that's that's the fact of it if we're sitting there and going okay i want to achieve x you know we're always saying what's your i hate the terminology what's your five-year plan like i had a five-year plan once and somebody threw it out the window but essentially if we're sitting there looking okay i want to look three steps ahead how am i going to do that how am i going to get three steps ahead well it's 30 years back there you've got 30 years behind you which you can look back on and reflect on of how you got to this point.

17:30The reason why you're at this point now looking at what's ahead of you is because of everything that you've done before. You didn't automatically just arrive at this point and go, oh, we're going to go and do that. Everything that's happened previously has led you to this point you're at now, looking further up the road and prepared you for how you're going to go and do that. Yeah. There's a really interesting analogy there where using this reflection point where so many people don't actually live life to the full. And the people i've met that i would say lived life to the absolute fullest and you can feel it often you see in your eyes you've stared there from the face more times than you care to have chosen i think you had a five percent chance of surviving yeah cancer what that's small i mean i went from 14 stone to six i couldn't even lift my own head off the pillow so i was i was originally diagnosed um november 2008 and they found an 11 and a half centimeter tumor wedged between my spine kidney and bowel which originally was an abnormal mass.

18:30We would then need to do a biopsy, did the biopsy and it was a primary repertoinial seminoma and because of its location it was too risky to do surgery. So I was put on a chemo plan which was basically a week of chemo, three weeks off, week of chemo, three weeks off and I was going to do three months of chemo. The first chemo was brutal the second chemo just wiped me out completely by february um well christmas i was neutropenic so i was kept in isolation one friend was allowed to see me at a time by february i'd gone from 14 stone to six lost the ability to walk and couldn't even lift my own head off the pillow my surgeon said that the night that he met me i looked like one of the mecons from the Dandere comics and he didn't think that I had the strength to survive but wanted to give it a go, wanted to see what if he could make a difference.

19:24They rushed me into surgery and the anaesthetist rang him and said I don't think he's gonna I don't think he's gonna make it through. They gave me some IV fluids and then four surgeons spent six hours basically cleaning out my abdomen. and off the back of that they brought my bowel out onto the surface I had 35 stitches in in my in my stomach that's a big I had two tubes in my right hand side I had two tubes in my left hand side I had a central line in my chest and I had two cannulas in each arm and was kept in an induced coma for just shy of two weeks and then waking up from that coma I was then kept in intensive care for a few extra days and then I had to really learn how to do everything everything from sitting up in bed moving my hands I couldn't I couldn't even move my toes I couldn't I couldn't do anything eating I was allowed mashed potato and gravy but I just I pushed the boundaries a little bit there's one conversation which I which I talk about now my surgeon phil barganus um we speak on the 23rd 24th of february every year ever since we have a phone call um because we we just we get on and he is people talk to me about who my inspiration is and it's him it's not anybody famous it's not anybody sport wise that guy gave up his his holiday to be able to look after me that guy saved my life i mean there's an element if he took a chance of course but but at the same time if he hadn't taken that chance and he openly says like if you'd have been if you hadn't been as young as you were and as fit as you were would have made you comfortable so he saw the potential for you to be able to fight through it based on what he had in front of him and then match that to his skill set have actually been yeah i think i mean he says look i i didn't think he had the strength to survive but i had to i had to do something and there's a conversation that we have which was that following my final surgery which is where they put my bowel back in um he came in to see me post-surgery and i was sat there eating chocolate and ice cream and he said i thought you were on fluids only like you shouldn't be eating that and i was like technically chocolate and ice cream are fluids i have a big smile on your face and he just was just like friends for life i hope you go home tomorrow and off and off he went and then he came to see me the next day and sent me home and yeah now we you know i saw him on the 25th of July that year and he said your tumour's got smaller no more chemo we're going to keep monitoring it but I'm signing you off and you're free to go and we as I say we we speak every now and again but we speak every year 24th of February special relationship if I haven't rang him he's ringing me you're super inspiring to talk with I love the fact that you have told me who you find inspiring.

22:17I could literally sit with you all day and the curiosity of me would be asking questions and I'd be learning from this resilience piece, your sort of lived experiences. And so I'm going to call you a role model for that, a proper positive role model. I want to flip that to the fact that we've got a crisis in young lads growing up, lack of identity, the manosphere. And I wonder, with someone that now appreciates life so much, you've battled to be at this point. and you appreciate time, you appreciate what you do with your time. What's gone wrong when you look at that from where you've been and who you are now and the generation coming through that doesn't seem to gravitate to really good role models?

22:59I think that's a can of worms. It's a harsh question for you, but I'm coming at it from someone that you really value your time because of what you've gone through. And the next generation coming through, a lot of them feel like they're lost. and it's where you where do you find your inspiration yeah i think there's i think there's there's two there's two bits to that i mean there's no there's no hiding there's no hide for me there's no hiding away from the fact that there is still a battle going on in the background with me there is still a battle of my identity who i am how i do it and um not not for validation but being able to get the traction to do the things that i want to do there is still that going on the bike is very much my medication of escapism there is still I went through a very very very I call it a grey patch because I know people that have gone through dark patches and I don't regard mine as being dark because I had a family I had a nice house and all those things so I call it the grey patch or the black dog sitting by the bed and for me somebody that's been through depression depression is like being an alcoholic you don't stop being an alcoholic that's always there but you learn how to manage it and every now and again there's that urge or that thing that comes up and you have to battle against it to pull yourself back in the other way and occasionally there's that time of where you can't pull it back then you just have to go I just need to ride this out for a few days and you tell the people around you what's going on so there's the that battle is still ongoing but I try and I try and counter that with the things that I can do and the help that I can give and the impact that I can have but going back to your question of of of young people and it might seem like a a bit of a flippant answer this but I think one of the things that that we've that we've lost is and I'm only thinking about this now and this maybe is an off the cuff off the cuff answer but kind of apprenticeships like if we'd got more apprenticeships of where we were taking young people and giving them skill sets whether that was in in building in engineering in and putting them in an environment of where that they were surrounded by you know the grafters that there were in them you know we talk about a minute ago we were talking about the fact that i learned to be a plasterer when I first left school.

25:27And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's right, but I had a bucket thrown at me for like six months before I was even allowed near a trowel. You know, but at the same time, you know, those guys packed their lunch every night, they had a flask and they were about their families and earning and learning. So you learned the culture, you learned discipline. Yeah. As well as the skill. Yeah. Yeah. And you weren't given it, you learned it. Yeah. Yeah. you know whereas you know it's now it's it's very different i'm not saying that we should go back to olden times and you know things progress but the the those back to your point those male role models are very difficult to come by now because it's changed and i think that's one of the things they're not they are male role models but not in the right context no i appreciate you that's good perspective another thing i'm not sure that's the right answer i'm not sure there's no right answer I was asking you because of what you've been through.

26:23This is the part I enjoy is I don't know what you're going to say. I'm interested to know because I look at you as a positive force for good role model. That's also why I don't want to know the questions I'm going to get asked. Yeah. Because I want them to be honest answers. And what I find at the algorithm has a lot to answer for, but how do the sort of almost the negative voices rise to the top when there's people putting out such positive messages? and I think the purpose element which we can bring into play, you've got 2112 coming up, the challenge, and we'll talk about that now. And I feel like that's really important to you.

26:58It's like my nan always used to say, empty vessels make the most noise. And that's so true. Isn't it? You know, it's not just me, but other people that I know that are genuinely trying to make a difference and do things or are inspirational speakers or because they don't shout and make a certain noise, they don't get the level of traction but then when you actually look at the person that's telling the story or posting the videos you know another conversation we had earlier with another conversation earlier on was kind of why don't you post more about your training level because I'm training that's why why don't you do so more Instagram when you're out training on your bike well because I'm out training yeah but so and so does it yeah but they're creating content they're not training it's not a priority to you no no the training is training i'm focused on it you know you look at there's been some stories in the cycling press recently that oh i went with a ride with so and so who's a cycling influencer and it took like 10 hours to do a ride that to take three because they're stopping every five minutes to take a picture or set a tripod up and then go and ride past it and i'm not saying that in cycling but it's the same in everything else if somebody's making that much content and telling you how much else they're doing they're not really because they're making the content and that that's the difficulty is that that content is then continuously coming out whereas the people that do have a story or something to talk about that can be a positive influence on those young people and i'm not saying that's me they're they're actually busy doing it yeah so tell me about 20 or trying to do it yeah yeah i get that tell me about 2112 so 2112 um last year was um last year was a bit of a struggle for me off the back of race across america there was a lot of adaptation um and from various things happened kind of um financially which kind of pushed me a little bit and then we we ran a couple of programs um through the organizations that we worked with um one over in ireland and one here in london we had in the region about 500 people taking part in different events but the the particular one that finished in Paris was I stood in Paris and watched 247 people ride from London to Paris in 24 hours when I saw them all cross the finish line and it just reminded me of actually that was why I started doing this I started I rode a bike for recovery I turned that riding into fundraising I turned it into escapism I turned it into connecting people being with other people doing things and raising a lot of money being able to to do that race across America in hindsight had kind of pulled me away from that because of the focus that was needed to be able to do it and the training and I decided that something had got to change in 2026 and then I realized that June this year will be 15 years since I was last diagnosed with cancer and I wanted to do something special to commemorate that and I wanted to do something that I could potentially so I've been fortunate enough to meet a lot of people along the way and I've never asked any of those people for any help purely I've never asked those people for help in terms of talking about what I'm doing because I've always felt that if I'm trying to win a race or I'm trying to break a world record they're very solo things so i kind of went actually how can we how can i do something that's quite big can celebrate 15 years and potentially i can go and bang on a lot of doors and see what difference we can make and then i came up with this idea of riding the tour de france but i didn't want to ride it in 21 days because it's 21 stages so i didn't want to ride it in 21 days because to be honest i don't want to be away from home for three weeks this is the truth did this and like three weeks away from home is quite a long time i like i like being at home with the family now they're getting that bit older and there's that real characters coming through there's that banter and um and then i kind of came up with 21 12 so 21 stages of tour de france in 12 days so roughly speaking two stages a day starting barcelona um after the pros uh with the intention of finishing before the pros yeah I was just gonna say that's good yeah so we'd start on the I think it's the 13th 13th 14th of July and then finish in Paris on the Saturday before them but the key to this is that I want to raise half a million for Great Ormond Street you're the chairman of the uh the velodrome yeah so I've been involved with stuff for Great Ormond Street for for a while a friend of mine was chairman of the event the velodrome challenge um he then stepped down a couple of years ago and i came in as interim chair whilst we've got somebody lined up who we thought was who's a very good another good friend of mine who we thought was going to do it um and um unfortunately she had a she changed her mind and her a positive shift means that she um said no i won't be able to do it so i carried on doing it and now i've been doing it for three years we've raised about 2.2 million on that event over the years and they're building a new world leading cancer centre at Great Ormond Street.

32:16I mean it's impressive what they're doing there. I wanted to do something meaningful, I wanted to do something that would have an impact, I wanted to do something that would be lasting. So we have an agreement with Great Ormond Street that the money that we raise will be ring-fenced for special projects within the cancer centre. So that can be a host of different things which we're just kind of talking through. Will that be a play area, will that be a patient room, will that be a family room for families to stay in whilst their children are going through treatment. I've been, as we've talked about, I've been on the other side of that fence.

32:52You know, going through cancer is one thing, a child going through cancer is something else. Again, it sounds a little bit flippant when I say it out loud, but if you turned around and told me that I'd got cancer again for a third time, I'd roll my sleeves up and do what I need to do but if I found out that one of my children had got it I it would break me I knew you were going to say that it would absolutely destroy me and I don't know um because I know what that feels like and I wouldn't want them or any other child um to have to go through that and I think that a child going through it is bad enough a parent having to watch their child go through it i've always said that people watching somebody go through cancer treatment is often harder than the person that's going through it because you're in it you know i i can still tell you what time they turned the lights on on the ward what time breakfast was what time medication was what time the vampires as we call them which were taking your bloods every morning fa7a8o still remember my hospital number to this day you do have a Phenomenal memory, don't you?

34:02You know, and I can remember what time lunch was. I remember what time the medication came around in the afternoon. I can remember all that because every day was broken down into one step at a time. Every day was broken down into, right, they're taking the stitches out. They're taking that tube out. They're taking that tube out. Everything was broken down into a process. But that person that's sat by your bed, they can't do anything. They can't physically step in and take that away. Not enough is necessarily always said or done for the people that are supporting those in crisis, those that are ill.

34:35So I think that's a really beautifully described actually way of making sure those people actually do need probably the support and you ought to be more aware of that, more self-aware. So that's the plan. I mean, there's various things now starting to fall in, starting to fall in, but they're starting to come together. We've still got a long way to go, but for the next, so we're sort of 10 weeks out now um and over that next 10 weeks it is literally um getting that funding into place concentrating on time on the bike i'm not as fit as i'd like to be right now um you can't chase fitness but you can chase time on the bike and actually time on the bike is as important as being fit um there's being fit and there's bike fit there's they're two different you can take a very very fit person that can't ride a bike you can take a very unfit person that's used to being on a bike and they can sit on a bike for a long time so um i am perhaps resting on my laurels a little bit i don't think it's going to be an easy challenge um but the next few weeks is literally about pulling that external team together um whether that's people that are going to share the story whether that's people that are going to help with fundraising or whether that's people sponsors that are going to come on board and help us kind of pull all those bits together but as far as I'm concerned I'm off to Barcelona kind of second week of July yeah that's my birthday on the 4th it's my wife's birthday a couple of days later and then away we go.

36:00Definitely well I wish you all the success with that and it's like there's a personal challenge there for you and then there's the fact that you know so many so many people benefit from your efforts of fundraising and awareness as well that go with that yeah yeah anything I can do to help in any way bring you more people, more awareness and obviously this conversation, anyone watching, listening, how can they reach out and support you? Well, the website will be finished within the next few days. The main point of contact is Instagram or LinkedIn at the moment. Well, we'll share the links when we put this out.

36:34We'll make sure they go out. Yeah, perfect. I knew I was going to enjoy this conversation. I don't want it to end. And can I thank you as well? You flew in from Portugal to film with me especially so that's heartfelt you know you you invited me so yeah well my my criteria of uh learning from people with scars and knowing that they're conversations worth having yeah huge thank you to you no thanks for having me it's a pleasure to be here