James Sutton: From TV Fame to Finding Purpose | Extraordinary Life Stories

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0:41Who is James Sutton? James Sutton has been an actor for 20 years on British television and on stage. Very recently semi-retired, now he is a behavioural strategist and a writer and a speaker. It's a pretty brutal industry, right? My marriage is broken. I'm a drug addict. I'm drinking all the time. I'm overweight. I'm struggling at work. I'm a bad friend, a bad colleague, a bad husband and a bad friend. How do I fix all of these things? That's too much for me to bet. I can't deal with all of this. That sounds like a really deep, dark time. But you got through it. And what got you through it? Because did someone help you?

1:20Did someone recognise you? Or did you have to do the work yourself?

1:27little promises. It's the only way. Embarrassingly small, insultingly small promises and just keep stacking them until you have a library of evidence that says, I am someone I can trust.

1:49Sorry to interrupt. I've never asked this before, but if you can subscribe and follow, that will allow me to keep bringing extraordinary guests onto the show. Now let's get back to it. Thank you for having me. I've got to say I'm a massive fan, genuinely. I'm not just saying that. I am a big fan. I love your work. Who is James Sutton? Who is James Sutton? James Sutton has been an actor for 20 years on British television and on stage. He has very recently semi-retired from acting and now he is a behavioural strategist and a writer and a speaker. I'll play to you. The identity piece, doing something for 20 years successfully.

2:32How's that been changing? It's been amazing. We tie so much of our identity up in our career and our behaviours and when you get the opportunity to change those big things like a career, the autonomy I think that you gain from that is I mean it's just incredible to have control over everything for the first time because as an actor you you outsource a lot of your value to the job you're reliant on a casting director and a producer and sometimes an agent you know to get you in the room and to you know to make sure that you have the opportunities and even when you get the job you know somebody else writes the script somebody else you know creates the character someone else comes up with stories there's a there's a certain lack of control there um you can only control the bit on set which is wonderful when i i'm a storyteller i love performing um but in a in a wider sense um in terms of my identity to have autonomy over everything that i'm doing is just the most rich fulfilling feeling i've had in my adult life beautiful articulation it's true isn't it so you actually that even though you've loved the acting career at any one time there was probably a fear of um it ending someone else ending it for you not on your terms so it's a complete reframing now where you're in control of that yeah yeah it was it was all intentional i i realized i realized about 18 months ago i was on a on a show uh in the uk called holly oaks um some of your your viewers might be aware of it um and i kind of decided then um the storylines weren't really happening for me and i sort of thought i think I think I'm done on the show.

4:13And then I thought, I think I might be done as an actor. You know, I'm not the most incredible actor in the world. Am I capable of a good performance? Yes, I think I am with the right script and the right director. I've wrung every available drop of talent out that I had. And I'm really at peace with where I am and the career that I've had. I've done Shakespeare. I've done a one-man show. I took a play to New York. I've done television soaps I've done so much and if you'd have said to to me at 17 18 this is the career you're going to have for 20 years I'd have bitten your hand off so I feel very I feel very very peaceful with where I am and who I am and and what I've done that's lovely to hear just just calling you out though if you've got an opportunity that came your way so you're not looking for it now which is often where sometimes the opportunities come from right yeah it's would you say no to it so you know a a great acting opportunity where you draw the line, there's peace, which I really feel that, but then someone gives you a phone call and says, you know.

5:13It would have to be something really special. It would have. So you're really locked in on what you do now. Yeah, oh my God, honestly, I feel so calm and so fulfilled. I feel ambitious. I feel, I get to be creative. All my days are creative and rich. I know a lot of people kind of come to a point in their career as an actor where the jobs aren't coming their way. they're perhaps not getting the auditions that they were getting when they were perhaps a little bit younger and a little bit more castable and there's a really awkward bracket I think for an actor um sort of mid-30s to sort of mid-40s where you're not quite old enough to be somebody's dad but you're not young enough to be the heartthrob it's an awkward phase and I'm I'm I'm skipping that if something came along amazing my mum my mum always says to me she's like yeah but why don't you give Peaky Blinders a call it's like I'm not just gonna ring them up mum like I'm good You've already said the fact that that would have at any one time been an insecurity, that this could end and what would be next and then reinvent yourself again and so on.

6:13And all the mental health that goes with that. And I know we've talked off camera that that's at any one time been something you've had to really manage. Can we open that up? Yeah, absolutely, 100%. I mean, firstly, I'll say, as an actor, your experiences, your vulnerability, your emotional depth that you bring to a role is intrinsically linked to the experiences that you've had. So some of the best actors that you know, some of your favourite actors on TV and on stage and on screen have been through some really dark times and managed to harness that darkness and turn it into something incredible and really beautiful.

6:54For me, I always kind of felt like there was two sides of me. I never felt like everything was kind of, was one solid being. I felt like there was very much the actor version of me. And I know what he looks like, and I know what he sounds like, and I know how he walks onto a TV set, and he knows his lines, and he's good fun, and he's playful, and uses his imagination, and throws ideas around, and can take direction, all of that side of it. But then there's the other side. that I don't think people are necessarily aware that I've been through. So I always felt like I was living almost a double life really, trying to balance my own mental health struggles, which have come from some childhood experiences, addiction as well, on top of mental health problems, on top of panic attacks.

7:48um it was a it was a there was a chaotic um existence behind the scenes and at some point those two worlds just collide and it just kind of imploded um I had my first panic attack when I was I'd have been about 17 I think I went to an open air festival in Nottingham music festival Green Day were playing and Iggy Pop excellent um and I got off the train in Nottingham and there were hundreds, thousands of people and I just stopped and I couldn't breathe and I felt like someone was standing on my chest and I didn't know what to do and I was dripping with sweat and my friend was like, are you okay?

8:29I was like, I don't know what's happened. It takes a long time to get over that stuff and I just wasn't right, eventually did and then those panic attacks just kind of continued. I had another one at the end of my first year in drama school. That was really dark. You know, an environment that should be really safe and creative and supportive and nurturing where everyone wants to perform and everyone wants you to do your best. Everyone's willing you on. And I'm sat there and they say, oh, James, up you get, let's do an improvisation. And I just say, I can't get up. I can't do that. Sorry. And this went on for a few months and there was conversations about maybe taking me off the course and you know maybe i'd have to leave the uni and all that kind of stuff and it yeah it got really really difficult you went into acting there's nowhere to hide and you're you're facing rejection you're facing uh you know it's a pretty brutal industry right massively and did you have panic attacks going to think you're acting good did they continue through yeah yeah so when you're up to for your part you can't say sorry i'm not so how did you mask that this is what i mean about the duality of the experience that I was living in.

9:41There was a version of me that had all the shit together and was managing and capable and public. But then privately, it was just falling apart at the seams. Did you go the route of masking that with drinks? Yeah, oh my God. I mean, drugs and alcohol. Drugs and alcohol played a huge part from the age of kind of 21, 22-ish. It was your coping mechanism, right? Yeah. Oh, my God, 100%. I mean, you know, whoever introduced cocaine into my life, you know, all of a sudden I was like, oh, I'm good. I'm good. I'm confident. I'm fine. I can handle all of this. Did you bring that into daytime habit as well to get you through?

10:24No, not so much. Not so much. No, I was never. So it was a release. Yeah, 100%. And it's an excuse to not think and it's an excuse to not sit with the way that you feel and the thoughts that you're having and the questions that you're asking yourself and the vulnerability that having mental health struggles gives you. You know, it's a scary, they're scary times, you know, when you're sat with your own thoughts and you feel like you're going insane. If the alternative is that, if the alternative to that is drinking and powders and pills and smoking and, you know, all of that, then it's a really easy, it seems like a really easy choice.

11:06And your decision making at that time then, I mean, looking at you now, you're like a pillar of health, right? You sit in your eyes, clearly in really good physically shape. But at that time, you're on TV. You're very visible. And so without having any image to reference now and so on, do you look back on those times and recognize that that was a seriously unhealthy time for you? Yeah, I can't watch a lot of the work that I did on Hollyoaks. And it was mad because I was being given huge storylines. really they gave they used to give me a lot of the issue-based storylines so that you know the important ones the big the heavy lifting you know my character um had a huge coming out storyline um when I first joined the show um he was he was the victim of male rape uh domestic abuse um alcoholism all kinds of stuff deaths you know you name it um they put him through it um and and And yeah, to have that lived experience, which is exhausting dealing with those storylines and should have been exhilarating.

12:14But for a lot of that, I think I just felt like I was getting away with it. And I can't look back and watch it now because I know that I wasn't doing my best work. I know I wasn't doing my best work. Yeah, I was turning up on time. I knew my lines. I was nominated for awards. So clearly there is some level of talent somewhere, this instinct that I had um but I'd love to I'd love the opportunity to go back and do it with a with a with a clear head yeah you know not to live with regrets because it's not healthy but you know you got through it man I mean I'm just gonna kind of pat you on the back and congratulate because that sounds like a really deep dark time yeah which even even just watching you your eyes have been lit up from the minute we connected outside but you you went you know eye contact down and you went back there um but you got through it and what got you through it because Did someone help you?

13:05Did someone recognize you? Or did you have to do the work yourself? No, I did it myself. What did you do? Because there's plenty of people watching, listening that are around people that need help or they themselves need help. What got you through it? It's really dark and it's really hard to explain to people who haven't been through that. Not just addiction, but all of it. Stress, anxiety, addiction, alcoholism. These are heavy, heavy topics. and I got to a stage where lockdown was the big, was the killer. The wheels just completely fell off in lockdown. My marriage was already falling apart, you know, because of my behaviour.

13:44Very, very selfish, not present, not giving my wife any of the kind of support and love and attention that she needed. So I feel very guilty about that now. And then lockdown hit. We were furloughed for three months. key workers, go figure. So I was suddenly in the house for three months and getting drugs posted through the letterbox and no excuse to do anything other than just get high and drink and I got into online gambling. And I mean, the whole thing is just a complete mess. And then my brother got diagnosed with leukemia. He lives in Australia and we couldn't go and visit him because it was COVID.

14:26So my brother was having injections into his spine in Australia and I was at home in Liverpool just getting messed up and making really, really poor decisions. And there was no one there to say, you know, if this is not, you need to sort yourself out. I had a feeling that if I started with fitness, if I started with one thing, if I started keeping one promise to myself, I might be able to build on top of that one promise. So I started going to the gym only once or twice a week and I started to feel a little bit better. I started to have a little bit of structure in my life for the first time. Even if it's just an hour a day, you've kept that one promise to yourself.

15:10And if you achieve nothing else for the rest of that day, you did that thing. You lifted those weights. Control as well, you've taken control. 100%, 100%, even for that small period. And I think I just built on top of that. And when you start with the physical, obviously, you know, your mental health improves because you are reliable to yourself again for the first time. You develop a little bit of internal credibility because, you know, you said you were going to do something. I said I was going to go to the gym and I did it. So all of a sudden you start to think, I'm a little bit more powerful today.

15:43And that continues. and that continues. And then the byproduct of getting into the gym and being consistent with it, which is what I experienced in the couple of years after COVID and still now. You eat better, you sleep better, you drink less, you don't tolerate terrible people with bad intentions who don't facilitate your growth and a positive experience for you. You start to see more clearly, you have more clarity, you have more self-awareness. And I can kind of trace it all back to going to the gym and making that one promise to myself and that one commitment. It's really important to share that.

16:20Yeah. The habit building. And it just, you went for all the right reasons, but it started to then knock out the bad habits, the sort of poor decision making around eating, probably late nights. Oh my God, yeah. There's a lot of work there though, isn't there? It's important to share that, right? It's like it wasn't a switch that you flicked. It was... No, no, it's a long time. You used the word discipline. Can I just ask you as well, have you ever had any ADHD test? Have you ever... I only ask because that's a new experience for me. And I'm not in any way calling you out on the whole thing, but you are all or nothing.

16:52Yeah. But you are all about the whole, like if you lean into something and you start seeing results and it feels right, you'll keep going. And of course, if you don't know that that's the wrong thing, going back to the younger version, you wear drugs, masked and helped you cope. well anyone watching this thing knows that cocaine is not something you should be doing but it worked for you that time and so you carry on so you've got to find the good habits the things that work for you i think it's dopamine yeah it's dopamine we we are all dopamine addicts and i worry more about the younger generation because they are being brought up on quick dopamine hits mobile phones tablets all of you know it's it's everything is instant you want you know it's it's in little quick fixes, similarly to cocaine as well and other drugs as well, is you get that quick hit.

17:36What that does is it breaks your dopamine receptors so that when it comes to real pleasure and real enjoyment, going to see a nice sunset, going for a lovely walk, reading a beautiful book, hearing a piece of music, you don't have that same joy that you would ordinarily have. So it's about rediscovering that. And it's a really, really slow process. And it does require some discipline. I can't say all this and pretend that what I've been through is easy, but I am proof that what I'm talking about works. If you keep making those small promises to yourself and becoming reliable, tiny, tiny promises that feel so insulting, when you're in that situation, it feels like it weighs really, really heavy.

18:23I remember being in lockdown and thinking, right, my marriage is broken, I'm a drug addict, I'm drinking all the time, I'm overweight, I look like ****, I'm struggling at work, I'm a bad friend, a bad colleague, a bad husband and a bad friend. How do I fix all of these things? That's too much for me to bet. I can't deal with all of this. So the only way to deal with big problems is to break them down into tiny little habits and tiny little promises. It's the only way, embarrassingly small, insultingly small promises, and just keep stacking them until you have a library of evidence that says, I am someone I can trust.

19:04No, brilliant to share that. You used the word embarrassed, right? I think you and I are very aligned in that there's real strength in vulnerability. You're doing it now, isn't me? And I thank you for that because we have the manosphere. We have this kind of testosterone-driven, algorithm-filling, role model, if you like. The wrong role models have risen to the top and young lads have gravitated for the very reason you said, the tension, dopamine. But that piece that would have been embarrassed, you use that word, and I know you don't actually mean it because you're not afraid to say it, but from lads that need that role model piece, how comfortable would you have been with that five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and how important is it to have that now?

19:53I wouldn't have been comfortable at all being vulnerable. It's a new thing for me. And let me tell you, it feels great. I mean, I've got to be honest. You wear it well. Thank you. Thank you very much. I just think it's massively important. You know, the wonderful thing about being vulnerable, especially with another man, is that there's a symbiotic relationship there. Not only am I offloading how I feel, not offloading, I'm sharing with you my vulnerability. I'm giving you permission to do the same. So it gives other people the patience. It works both ways. And in a society right now where economically we're in a really difficult time, you know, there's a lot of reasons why young men especially fall into this manosphere and, you know, this red pill ideology and all of this.

20:39There's not one quick fix. There's economic reasons. There's educational reasons, there's reasons, you know, failures from on a government level all the way down to an education to a parental level. There's all kinds of things at play. But we have to try and encourage our boys to be vulnerable with each other. You know, I speak to so many men, so many young guys, and I say, you know, how are you doing? You know, you get onto the subject of, have you got many friends? Do you talk? Yeah, I've got loads of mates. I'm like, yeah, what do you talk about? What is it you're talking about? Well, they're talking about football.

21:13They're talking about cars they're talking about you know love island whatever it is and you're like but you're not having any you're not having there's no depth to the conversations they've got barriers up around the vulnerability piece right 100 this is a tricky question for you this pique my interest because uh when you were at your when you were going through that real crisis early in your acting career if you'd shared how you were feeling which you wouldn't have been able to the person you were at the time because of that uh the fear of what might have happened and so on but how well received do you think it would have been?

21:45And the reason why I ask is that I feel that that culture hopefully is changing. You might sound me corrected, but the reality is that you weren't prepared to share how you were feeling and then you must and it creates such a downstream effect. You've lost your marriage. Your health was in turmoil for far too many years. But if you'd shared how you were feeling, do you think there was the right support there? I don't think I would have even had the language, to be honest. I think that was the biggest battle and the biggest obstacle. My generation is the generation that's really struggling. It's not just me.

22:20There's so many men out there who are objectively doing really well from the outside. And this is why I can relate to it. They have a decent job. They have a family. They have a nice car. They have a nice watch. You know, you look at them, they play golf on the weekend. And you think, man, you've got your stuff together. they are so unfulfilled and so miserable and so low and they've done everything that they were told they were supposed to do and it hasn't worked they're still unhappy so what does that look like and that's that's that's that's how I can relate to it I think the experience that I've had in terms of talking about it though the young I feel like younger people now at least have the language and at least I think if they were to speak about it I don't think they'd be ridiculed I don't think they'd be you know people wouldn't be confused we understand now that we have a mental health crisis we understand that men struggle we understand that men need not more support than women but men need very very specific support I feel like female friendship for example is a lot easier to define we we know what female friendship looks like women can describe female friendship really, really well.

23:33And they talk and they check in on each other and they drop in and they have little text messages and they have an open dialogue. You know, if a woman is hurt or scorned or whatever, she's got, for the most part, I think, you know, some solidarity there and a soundboard. For men, where are we turning? We're not talking to, you know, Dave in the pub. Dave doesn't care. Dave's just confused. So I think things are getting better for the younger generations in terms of um you know the the opportunity to have these conversations and the the i don't think it's as difficult as it was and as i say i think my generation our generation i think of the generation that are going i don't know what to do or what to say i've done everything i was supposed to and i'm here you're so true you got me thinking about the fact that just a parallel literally what you just said kids are being told to go to university to get a good job because it worked previously.

24:27And now there's the highest amount of grads sat there feeling like they've been lied to, feeling like the system is effectively a fraud. And just, yeah, it's painful hearing from you that these guys that look like they're doing well on the outside are effectively lost and just thinking, where's the fulfillment? Where's the purpose? Yeah, absolutely. It's important to share that. 100%, you know, because it's not, when we think of men that are struggling, we often think of men who are lower down the social economic level you know men who grew up in poverty maybe in care or council estates who do you know low-paid jobs really struggle there's drink involved out you know drugs all that kind of stuff they're not just the men that are struggling men like us are struggling you know men in middle management civil servants who've been doing the same job for 20 years and you know haven't managed to rise up and I sat there thinking is this it is this is this everything I've done everything I was supposed to I went to university I've studied, I've learned, I'm a good employee.

25:24What more is there? It's that unfulfillment, I think, that just breeds this kind of disconnect with the version that they were told they could become if they worked hard, tried hard and were diligent and a caring, thoughtful human being. They were lied to. A lot of people were lied to. Back to you. Yes. Future projections. It feels like quite an exciting time for you. I feel like you're probably the best version of yourself if you've ever been right oh my god yeah yeah i feel that so you've closed the door on acting yep um you've got that fulfillment piece but what's the what's the projection there what do you want to achieve now i love being of service as cliche as it might sound i love helping i think there's a um there's a lovely thing about about going through difficult times and coming out of the other side that you want to share what you've been through and you want to help people avoid the pitfalls and you want to help people get out of it and you want to pay it forward essentially.

26:24So I'm big on being of service. I want to help men. I want to speak to men. I want to meet men. I want to try and have a positive impact on men. That's my sort of life goal I think now. For the next decade, I want to focus on speaking. I launched my own website. I publish letters every week on direction, structure, identity, self-trust, which is a big topic of mine. um and i'm yeah i'm i love it i love i love being creative i love speaking love the sound of my own voice in case anyone is under any illusion um and i do yeah that's that's that's what that's what i think the next i'm ashamed with though but then that's yeah that's the confidence piece that got you into acting yeah so you've got to have that confidence in yourself but then you've got to have something you want to talk about acting you were acting as someone else now you're yourself and not just that you get to help other people it's admirable it's honestly this is what i say i'm so fulfilled i'm so happy and i i want i want other people to to realize that this you know this is this kind of journey is possible and all i've done is is follow the thread launched my own podcast a few years ago called male mind matters which was encouraging men to have more honest more vulnerable conversations but the kind of byproduct of that was that a lot of men reached out and said, because we did tackle some quite difficult subjects, a lot of men reached out and said, oh, I feel like that.

27:49I've never heard anyone speak like that before. I thought there might be something in this. And that kind of lit the fuse, really. And now, yeah, I love where I am. I quite like who I am. I have a structure in place that allows me to operate at a really, really good high level. I read a lot. I write. I speak. I mean, this is all I think I ever want now, really. I think I've somehow, I don't know how. Well, I do know how, actually. I've just followed the thread. I found something that I was interested in, something that amused me and interested me, and I've just followed that thread. And I urge anyone to sit on the end of the bed and have that conversation with themselves and say, what am I interested in?

28:37What do I know? What's my value? What's my knowledge? What's my thing? And just follow that thread. Be useful and see what happens. You are being useful. You're helping me right now. This is my favorite thing to do. We know how we connected on the call we had together. Look forward to the conversation. And you asked me off camera if I'd ever had therapy before. This is like a form of therapy for me. you know that whole uh man-to-man conversation that uh uh sort of unhealthy competition uh passed down from previous generations we don't show weakness don't show vulnerability you know to reframe that in this way and fair play to you to then make that a mission to go and do the talking and then you're great for it and i think someone i've got a lot of respect for said to me that um people really learn for people with scars you know that resilience piece you know you've been through it mate you know and you you've got credibility by if you like you know however much you would rather not have earned that you've gone through the trenches to be in a position where you've got a big smile on your face yeah and you're putting out a proper positive message when there's far too many negative messages out there so credit to you man yeah you know i'm i don't i don't i don't feel like i'm doing anything special i just feel like tomorrow morning is knocking stock your fridge now how about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe or white chocolate mocha whichever you choose delicious coffee awaits find starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries i feel like i'm i feel like i'm living my life for the first time not to put too fine a point on it but i i feel like over the last few years this is this is what i'm put on the earth to do this is this is why i'm here this is these are conversations that i want to be having these are the men that i want to be speaking to and reaching out to and saying you know i know i know it's hard right now and i know the world is a dark place and i know you're struggling but i promise you there's i promise you there's options and there's choice out there there always is and and that's that puts the smile on my face that puts the fuel in my fire you know i i don't even have therapy anymore um but at the moment um this is my therapy, this is what I love.

30:55You've walked the walk, you talk about that thread but you've walked the walk to get here, well I appreciate you coming to spend time with me, I thank you from the heart because I think you're so refreshing if I'm honest that someone is putting that mission behind it and actually you turn the negative into a positive, you shared openly that you were properly broken at one point and you're sitting here now and you're glowing, yeah and that's infectious Just that's important. And that's also a key message of like, it's not been easy for you to get to this point, but you can very much encourage others to do that.

31:29So just heartfelt thank you for what you're doing and for making time to come and talk with me. It's been an absolute joy being here, man. Honestly, as I say, I love your work. I think you're amazing at this, by the way. I don't know if enough people tell you that. I'm sure you have an instinct because a lot of people listen to it and the traction and the metrics are good on the socials. Thank you. That's appreciated. God bless.