Jim Chapman: From YouTube Pioneer to Purposeful Father | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:00People are drawn to extremes. Headlines are always mental, they're always big. We see it on TV, we see it in politics. Social media is not new to that, it's part of the human condition. Who is Jim Chapman? Professionally, people will know me as, I hate saying it, I'm still kind of classed as a YouTuber, but that's what I do, it's not who I am. I think a lot of people think I'm like an entrepreneur or like you said, a pioneer. I made it up. The whole time I was doing it in the early years, I was also job hunting. I didn't think it was going to become a thing it was a hobby but I also don't know many people who do my job and are content that's an interesting word yeah I mean for me it's a distinction between content and happiness and this is where my degree comes in right so happiness is an emotion it comes and goes it can last for a minute it can last for a month right if you are a content person you're you're content with who you are what you do the role you provide it makes you much more prone to happiness to think about what my life was like then and how different that is to the life I give my children, we drive away and I was like, are you crying?

0:58She said to me, your life was just so different from mine growing up. I don't understand why you would look after yourself, why you'd shower, go to the gym, cut your nails, do your ears, whatever, but then not nurture your mind, because that is everything.

1:25Looking forward to this. Thanks very much. Yeah, thanks for having me. Tell me, who is Jim Chapman? I still don't know. I'm 38. I'm still working it out. I think professionally people will know me as... I hate saying it. I'm still kind of classed as a YouTuber, if you ever see my name written anywhere, and I hardly ever post on YouTube anymore. But that's how I started coming into this world, on social media, about 16 years ago now. But that's what I do. It's not who I am. So as a human being, I don't have a really good answer for that. I like to think I'm good, you know, and by that I mean I want my output to be greater than my, than what I take as a kind of a general rule.

2:15But that's as far as I know. I love that. I quite like that. That's a great mission. Yeah. You know, to be good. I think I'm at a point in my life where I've had enough experience behind me and I have had enough fortune where I currently am and I've got a really positive outlook about what comes next that I hope I can sort of pay it forward. Yeah. Well, positive, you just said the word. The other word that I thought of in the build-up to talking to you today was authentic. Yeah. It just feels like you're... You were literally exactly the same, talking to everyone in here, talking out there. There's a lovely flow of authenticity about you that doesn't get changed by lights, cameras, or hasn't in any way changed through the fame you've achieved, if you like, through the YouTubing that morphs into...

3:01I always think I'm me plus 10 when the cameras are on, in that I will speak a bit more clear, and I will present myself a little bit better. But ultimately, I am the same person. And that isn't the same for everybody I meet in this industry, and that's invariably disappointing. Yeah. But no, I like... I think if you've been doing anything long enough, particularly what I do, which is self-generated content for the most part, with direct communication to your people, you can't fake it. No. They'd know by now, right? I'd been called out. I'd have been cancelled. I would have lost audience. Sure.

3:36You know, most of the people watching me have watched me for a very long time and they've kind of stuck along with me. And you don't get that if you fake it. No. And actually, there's plenty of people that, you know, going back to when you were first blowing up, if you like, on YouTube and doing that in a way where you're allowing people into your life. Right. There'll be a lot of people that clearly don't know you that feel like they do. Sure. Because you've actually been very visible all the way through. And I want to open that up where you're effectively sitting here self-taught with what you do.

4:04Yeah. You were pioneering something that, you know, even then almost a slight awkwardness around YouTubing because what is it now? content creator, which is actually what the majority of Gen Z coming through want to be. Yeah. But you have influenced all those people coming through because they see people putting themselves out there, being visible, putting content that they aspire to want to do. Have you framed it like that before? Yeah, I have now. And I feel two ways about it. Firstly, for me, I think a lot of people think I'm like an entrepreneur or like you said, a pioneer. I made it up. I didn't do it with intent.

4:38I had no idea it was going to go anywhere. For me, it was a creative outlet. I didn't expect anything from it. The whole time I was doing it in the early years, I was also job hunting. I didn't think it was going to become a thing. It was a hobby. A filler. For sure. You know, I had graduated with a degree in psychology. I was doing a master's. Prior to that, I wanted to be an illustrator. And so for me, it was my creative outlet. I think nobody had any idea it could be a thing at that time. And it sort of became a thing. and we use the word authentic already and it's one of those words I struggle with sometimes because yes I really am but it's such a buzzword now and I think actually sometimes has lost its authenticity ironically.

5:19It was never the goal. I always say right place right time because this movement was happening without me. I also happen to be the right guy for it in that like I said before I like to think I'm good but also I could see the potential when that potential started showing itself and I thought this is going to change my life and so I held on to it and 16 years later haven't let go yet and so I feel kind of two ways in that the internet is a great leveller anybody they're based my audience and audience are kind of your casting director no longer do you have to pitch yourself in front of tv execs and hope they think you're the right shape size, colour, whatever.

6:01Your audience will do that for you. And that's a wonderful thing. On the flip side, it's become such a big beast now that a lot of people do it for what I think is the sake of doing it as opposed to for any real purpose. There's a real illusion to just becoming important and famous and thinking that's going to bring you anything at all. Actually, great you get you might get your freebie you might get a few quid lovely they're good things to have don't you know i'm never going to debate that but it also comes with an absolute class of issues not issues maybe the wrong wrong word to use but you have to learn quick about how to one present yourself and do all like the mechanics of the job but also to find yourself in a position where people are listening to you sure outside of your own friendship group element of staying relevant bear which i was going to bring up for sure the relevance a long time but also yeah absolutely there's the relevance but also there's the danger of becoming consumed by it um and suddenly you open yourself up to the internet that can be a wonderful thing you can find your tribe but you can also find people who really hate you and if you are doing it because you want to be famous and suddenly you find yourself on the wrong side of that where you've got people who dislike you that's that's really difficult especially now people are doing it younger and younger when i started, I was already 21.

7:27And I think people forget that it didn't just happen. Whereas nowadays, the numbers we're talking about when I was blowing up are tiny compared to today's standards. Much bigger audience now, though, right? It's just a bigger, it's a bigger platform now. When I started, it was a smaller thing. It was a massive movement and a massive sort of snowball for the platforms and for me and, you know, my contemporaries. But the numbers were minuscule compared to what can be achieved today very, very quickly by very young people who aren't prepared for it. And so there is a real risk involved. It's definitely a double-edged sword.

8:02I've had the most wonderful time. I still continue to. I know so many people who are similar to me, but I also don't know many people who do my job and are content. I didn't think the pain from the shingles rash would affect simple everyday tasks like bathing, getting dressed, or even walking around. I was wrong. Though not everyone at risk will develop it, 99 % of people over the age of 50 already have the virus that causes shingles, and it could reactivate at any time. I developed it, and the blistering rash lasted for weeks. Don't learn the hard way, like I did. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today.

8:41Sponsored by GSK. That's an interesting word. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's a distinction between content and happiness. And this is where my degree comes in. Right. So happiness is an emotion. It comes and goes. It can last for a minute. It can last for a month. Contentment is kind of the precursor to happiness. Right. If you are a content person, you're you're content with who you are, what you do, the role you provide, the things you have, the people in your life. It makes you much more prone to happiness. And as an individual, I'm a content man. In my career, I'm so not content in my career because I'm always worried it's going to end.

9:19I'm always worried that something's going to happen or that I'm going to go back to where I came from 15 years ago when life was much, much harder and that I can't provide for my kids, et cetera, et cetera. Is that part of the drive, though? Is that something that every morning... Yeah, no, no. ...but just because reframing that as a positive if you can could lose everything. Yeah, yeah. Can't be complacent, can't stop. That also feels to me how you stayed relevant, why you keep showing up and keep doing what you're doing. And I want to bring that hard work element of being a content creator. I do think that some of what's put out, and we're in a tension competition now, if you like.

9:56We've all got social media, we've all got these different platforms we go on. What stands out? There's people trying so hard to put content together. It takes a huge amount of effort. It does. Is there an element of, just like you said, some people are suggesting it's easier than it actually is? I have a few things to say about this. So firstly, I think that it can be really easy and I could work two hours a week if I wanted to. And it wouldn't affect my social media reach. You know what I mean? Because my content is basically what I get up to day to day. It doesn't take long to make the content.

10:30What takes a long time is everything else I do and the work I do outside of just social media. So I'm never going to complain about what I do. And also it gives me the time to be a great dad and to work out and give myself time to work on my illustrating and, you know, a lot of self-fulfilling things, which is really important to me, especially as like a kind of a creative human being. But I also think that, like you were saying, that it's a bit more complicated in that, yes, I'm driven by potential and by experience and what comes next. But in that is a not insubstantial amount of fear, you know, because if I do stop and I've made this, I say a mistake, when my kids were born, I took my foot off the gas because I wanted to bond and essentially gave myself sort of paternity leave.

11:27Right. And I expected just to come back to it and, you know, be Jim Chapman again. No one gave a ****. And it was really humbling for me and also taught me a really valuable lesson that I'm not infallible. It can come to an end. And so I need to kind of keep hustling. I happen to love what I do and there's nothing wrong with that. But there is also the element of if I stop doing what I do, then I can't afford to keep my kids in the life that they are growing accustomed to or the life that I've, you know, am now accustomed to. So there's real risk involved, but I get to adventure. You know what I mean?

12:11You've done so many cool things. So many cool things. And I feel that you know that. It's not like, you know, you're living, you're present with that, you're appreciative of that. I'm full of gratitude. Yeah. This, I think also, I mean, we went home for Easter and actually my little boy had just fallen asleep 20 minutes out from Norwich where I was going to see my family. And so I said to my wife, I was like, should we drive by the town I used to live in? Because she's never seen it before. And I haven't been back since I left. And we drove past the house I grew up in. And it's down the tiniest little road to the point where all the beepers in the car because I was like between a hedge and another car.

12:47And I drove past the house and I thought actually the memories I have there were quite lovely because this was after we'd moved on from my dad so it was just me and my mum and my brother and one of my sisters my big sister had already had already moved out um and there's loads of lovely memories there but to think about what my life was like then and how different that is to the life i give my children was a huge huge moment for me my wife like actually i like we drive away and i was like are you crying she she said to me your life was just so different from mine growing up she'd never seen evidence of it, I suppose, you know.

13:25And so it is always... That made it real. You made it real for her, yeah, because, you know, she grew up wealthy and she's full of gratitude for that. And, you know, and it's a wonderful thing that her parents could do that for her, for sure. But sometimes when we talk about our childhoods, she's like, I don't, I can't fathom it. I can't see it. And so I'm so full of pride and gratitude for what I've achieved, not just financially, not just the fact that I now have moved from a small house to a nice big one, but the boy I was and the man I am, and the place I live and the things I do, and the fact that I was never going to get to do this for a living.

14:07I travel the world. I get to show my kids things. I've been to the Arctic Circle twice. I've been the jungle. How cool is that? And so none of that is lost on me. And I think the day it is, is the day I need to stop, you know, because that's wild. I don't feel like that's coming. I mean, that consistency, which is probably another word I'd have brought in alongside the authenticity, which I totally get is overused, but it really suits you. It's that whole, like, you're constantly evaluating from a self-awareness on you. If you carried that flow of conversation on, that responsibility element that you take And the thing that you're being seriously full of love for your kids now is also that role model piece that carries through that I know you didn't have when you were younger.

14:46So there's all the things, the amazing experiences you've had that are self-made have created the man that you are that becomes the role model for your kids. Yeah, I think you say self-made. I think my family did a great job with me, if I'm honest. My mum, my big sisters, they brought me up. I was raised by women. The only male influence in my life was... and wasn't around from the age of about nine. And for me, he's a real cautionary tale because he lost us because of his own actions, you know. And so, yes, I have a real good sense of what's right and wrong. And I like to think I'm a good dad and a good role model to people who watch me who are a bit younger.

15:28But I don't think it's fair to say it's self-made. Like, I didn't grow up in a vacuum. And where I was missing something, I had other people step in to fill that void and fill it with love and morality and, like, empathy. Bless you. So, I love the fact that you've said that. And I just wanted to say the self-made piece for me was to do with actually pioneering, creating, becoming a YouTuber. But I think it's really invaluable. You shared that. If we can go with the role model piece off camera, we were talking about this recent doc at Manosphere. Yeah, right. and how it's bothered you. I've watched it with both dads.

16:09I wanted to relate the fact that at any one time you achieved fame within a space that then grew and grew and grew, millions of following, and people paying attention to you. And at no time have you put anything out other than positive content that people can learn from, people can enjoy, it's entertaining. Why is the algorithm, and this is a harsh question for you, there's clearly a skew towards an algorithm that is promoting the wrong people right misogyny yeah behavior that is being accepted now this is um this is the only time actually that i wish i was bigger i get that you know what i mean yeah i don't really care about the numbers i do it's my job but you know i have a level of professionalism and i know the kind of what i need to maintain in order to to make this all work but i don't have an ego about it you know um that's uh this is probably one of the only occasions where I'm like, I wish I had a bigger reach because I know I'm the tonic to that toxic.

17:07The antidote. Yeah, I know that if I could get enough people to listen, I know I could make a difference there. But I'm not extreme enough. And that's the thing. I think people are drawn to extremes. We've seen it in the press since year dot. Headlines are always mental. They're always big. We see it on TV. We see it in politics. Social media is not new to that. It's part of the human condition. We don't really want to deal with grey, middle ground, because it doesn't do anything to, you know, neurologically, it doesn't do much to your brain. If you want to have an exciting brain, you need to be here or here.

17:48And I think that's why people are initially drawn to that sort of stuff. And then because the internet is a wonderful thing, but also So, fact... Opinion becomes fact real quick if you say it loud enough. It's kind of like fake it till you make it, which is a big part of my job. If I'm hosting a thing, often I'm... As long as one of the mics on and the cameras are and I go, hi, it's fine. And that can be used as a real positive thing and it's a big part of my career. But if people... You've always done it as a force for good. Right. You've never sort of gone and lent into the whole... Actually, I could probably get a lot more following here because you would have been aware of stuff going on and you could have been like well actually if i go that route i get 50 times the problem but that's oh that's that's not where i know if i were to press a few buttons or do a certain a few couple of things on my platform i'd get much more interaction but it's not the interaction i want to get right um and i think that like we were saying earlier some people are so desperate to achieve and to be successful that they will do things that are pretty extreme and unfortunately the way the algorithm works is that you get fed something and then of course your phone sees that you like it, you interact with it, so it feeds you more and more and that stuff becomes more and more extreme.

19:02Like I always use my mum's friend was always a little bit interested in left field things, you know, like slight, like I'm not gonna say necessarily conspiracy theories, but like, you know, other takes. Her algorithm has surfed her so much stuff now that she fully believes there's lizard people in charge, you know what I mean? Because that's the information she is being given. And the thing about social media is no one's fact checking. There's no control groups. There's no counter information because your algorithm goes, you like that. I'm going to keep serving you that. And so people become more and more entrenched in their ideas and extremity wins.

19:40It makes my blood boil that I know me and not just me, plenty of people who make content like me who are better for people to watch. yeah you know we we have a better message we have a a more like for example for me i don't believe that tolerance is enough i want i don't want just acceptance i want celebration you know like i don't think that we should just accept people from lgbt community we should celebrate them for being different because that's what has historically made art and culture and science and all of our like massive breakthroughs have been from people who think a bit differently feel a bit differently it's the only time i get angry about i can feel your passion yeah about about what i do because I'm like, I know there's plenty of us out there, plenty of people.

20:24Because my algorithm serves me loads of it because it's what I make and it's what I respond to. Loads of good people making good messages. And I might not be your cup of tea. You might not like the way I deliver it. You might not like my viewpoint on a certain thing. But there's someone out there who will do it. But we're never going to get as much traction as the extreme people. And that's why Manosphere does well. And unfortunately, you then get a group of impressionable young people who are just figuring out who they are, who quite literally haven't got a brain that's ready yet. You know, the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed.

20:55And so they're just taking things on board. And if it feels right, and if they're told that's the way they should think and feel, they're going to double down on it. And, you know, your pathways then become more and more concrete. And that's just what you believe. Well, it's such an impressionable age. You know, this time last year, adolescence came out. Right. Lost Boys Report, the crisis in young lads that often come from fatherless families and are looking for the role model. And then they lean into the noise, probably the best way I can put it. And that frustration, that passion for me, it's like we're not going to solve that here.

21:31It's just we're not going to get your viewpoint. But the element of anyone watching, listening, whether they're parents of kids or they're kids coming through now that want to be visible. They will look at you as a role model. I want to put my content out, but they're afraid to. They're afraid to because of being judged. Friendship group. Take my daughters, for example. All beautiful girls. None of them posting because if you post, I'm going to give you heat for it because actually I'd like to. So it's probably born out of jealousy. What advice can you give them to break out of that and say, you know, be confident and strive for?

22:04I've always been pretty confident in terms of, not confident as a person, I was really, really shy, but confident in who I am. It was also, the internet was a nicer place. There was less of it. At that time, people weren't, they were happier, I think, with the content they were receiving. And there was less of us around. And it felt like a really wholesome place to be. Now it's reached this sort of critical mass where you get served something you don't like, and you can just obliterate it. It's almost like the roadway, gentlemen. It kind of is. Someone screams through the window of the car and then you ask them to get out and the whole thing is like...

22:42Yeah. It's sort of become the norm to hide behind... Yeah. Also, you can do it anonymously. I really think that there'll be a point, and I hope there is soon, where all you have to do is prove your identity to make an account, right? And then suddenly you are held responsible for the things you say. And I really think pretty quickly a lot of the hate will disappear and it will turn into constructive criticism or feedback or people might not like what you do but at least they can say I don't like this as opposed to I don't like you and I really think it could be as simple as that but obviously at the moment it makes a load of money for them just to let these accounts exist that way and I think that would make a lot of that anonymous misery and hate sort of just vanish what you also find as well, if you are curious to look, is that for me, if ever I get hate, and actually I'm quite lucky I don't get loads of it, if you go on the account, usually it's the egg profile where there's no profile picture and they've got zero followers or they've got like one follower and it's their other account or something.

23:47And it makes you realise that they are just probably lonely and unhappy. Yes. It's a reflection on them rather than what you're doing. Yeah, as much as I don't have much sympathy for people who are... Sure. ...are... I don't care if you are... If you're lonely, you don't make friends by... That's not the route, is it? And so you may be angry. There's never really an excuse to spread misery and hate, right? No. But it does make me go, wow, that's sad for you. It's easy for me to say that from my ivory tower, right? I'm not new to this. I've been doing it a long time. But you built this ivory tower.

24:22You mentioned you were shy. So there was a moment where you felt a purpose or a drive to put yourself out of the comfort zone and put yourself online. For sure. Now, I clearly get that there were less people online and so on, but there's still a moment where you created that. And it's going to seem like a long time ago. I just want to take you back to that moment because that's also the bit literally where I was just asking where someone just is too afraid to put something out. And take me back to that now. And then with the perspective maturity, looking back on that, just to get past that. I think it didn't really feel like much of a risk.

24:53I didn't think anyone was going to watch. Interesting. It didn't feel... So it's more intimidating now because everyone can see... I think it might be more intimidating now for people who are starting out because it's such... It's common knowledge now. You know what I mean? And everybody's on it one way or another. It's in our vocabulary. We all know it. When I first started, I spent so long explaining to people what I do. I think it's harder now for people because you are... And also, if you look back at my early stuff it's absolutely diabolical but again it was such a small platform it didn't matter and so I've learned all my lessons along the way whereas now you're expected to be fully formed and also you expect to be really attractive or really whatever you are a hundred percent you know what I mean like if you look back at my stuff I was shy I wasn't particularly well put together um I was very not good at presenting myself and it was all actually a yeah if I were to do that now now, I would never cut through, right?

25:52And so people who make content now kind of have the expectation that it's got to be perfect. No, I love that. It's really invaluable to share that. And also, there's a huge amount of stuff that's been self-learned. And I imagine learning and watching from other people, there was other people coming through at the same time and you'd have been seeing other content. You still have to learn that for yourself to work out how to present yourself. For sure. And I think just... I'm going to use the word success here. You mentioned it earlier, that so much of what you have done has been successful. Sitting here now, how do you define success?

26:22I think it's peace of mind, and I'm still looking for it. I don't think of myself as that successful. I know it's not money because I've had more, and I've been, at the same time, been more unhappy. And don't get me wrong, coming from where I came from, having no money, having some money is brilliant. It gives you the option, it gives you the choice. But there's a point where you have enough where you're no longer stressing about paying your bills and everything. And much more than that, you're like, so? It doesn't actually, for me anyway, I might be different for other people. It doesn't bring me much joy to know that I've got extra there that I can go and buy something.

27:04You know what I mean? No, I can 100 % feel that. So to flip that, what would you say your purpose is now? Because four years into being a dad, massive shift there. Yeah, for sure. And I've seen some of the content you put out, where just the love of being a dad. I love it. But what would you say is the purpose now? And how's that shift? I will say now with the kids, I care more about money than I ever used to, because I want to make sure that they've got some. There's a responsibility element that comes from it. For sure. In fact, me and Sarah were talking about number three the other day. And it wasn't me and Sarah.

27:33We were having a conversation with somebody else. And they said, are you going to have a third? And I don't think so. because everything I have earned, everything I've gained, everything I have, if I got hit by a bus on the way out of this, they're doing okay. If I have a third, it's split an extra way. It's harder for them to make a go of it with that. And also I would end up giving each of them less of me because I'm spread between three of them. And also I exist. You know what I mean? I want to, that's the worst I want to do. And I don't want to only be dad. I've worked really long and really hard to have a wicked career.