Peter Higgins co-founder of Charles Tyrwhitt | Extraordinary Life Stories

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0:35Smooth caramel maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. And he said, I'm going to leave and set up this shirt business. Do you want to come too? And I said, yeah, why not? And the business was? Charles Tirrett shirts. And from there to how big is it now? Oh gosh, I think this year we'll do about 430 million. We sell 20 ,000 shirts a day. So I was in the basement downstairs with no windows. Nick was upstairs entering the orders. The dispatch note would come down. I would pack it, throw it up through the gap, and Nick would go down to the post office and post it.

1:12And so we were doing Amazon before Amazon, you know. We came out of Covid having all sort of been wearing tracky bottoms and put the t-shirts on and a lot of them didn't come back from that. Thomas Pink went under, Tim Lunes went under, Moss Boss went under. It was a tough environment. The message to the team was always, if we get through this, we'll be in great shape. If you're playing rugby and you're losing 25-0, if you're the sort of person who thinks, well, okay, we lost this game, maybe we'll win next week, don't be an entrepreneur. If you're the sort of person at the half-time tour who says, look, we got our strategy wrong, we need to change, what are we going to do?

1:47Then you might be the person to be an entrepreneur. What would be the one point you make? Well the title is, Mistakes are Essential. If you don't try new things constantly, your competitors will, and then they will overtake you.

2:11Sorry to interrupt. I've never asked this before, but if you can subscribe and follow, that will allow me to keep bringing extraordinary guests onto the show. Now let's get back to it. Looking forward to this. Tell me, who is Peter Higgins? Who's Peter Higgins? I am a grammar school lad from Yorkshire. And one of my friends the other day, I saw him at an event and he said, we always knew you'd become an entrepreneur. And I had absolutely no idea about that because I read classics at university and became a management consultant. And that was sort of what I was going to do. And then one day over lunch, I had a chat with a guy called Nick.

2:50and he said, I'm going to leave and set up this shirt business. Do you want to come too? And I said, yeah, why not? So that's pretty much it. Yeah. And the business was? Charles Turret Shirts. Yeah. So people pronounce that wrong? Yeah. They get Tywright, Triwight, Truett. Yeah. It's not the best, but it is. The Turret family is the founder Nick's family name, and it's in the Doomsday Book. It's proper British. Proper British. Yeah. Yeah, we always joke we'd be making, you know, Hessian sacks in 1066 for people to wear. And the why behind Charles Stewart was to make proper quality shirts at the beginning.

3:28And that's gone a long way from there, right? Yeah, I think it was proper English shirts. I mean, we were obviously, as usual, focused on value and so on. But the one thing we did, which I don't think we would have termed it the differentiation, but what we did was I was in the basement downstairs with no windows. we literally sawed a hole in the floor and I was down there we kept all the shirts there Nick was upstairs entering the orders the dispatch that would come down come out downstairs I would pack it throw it up through the gap and it would go down the post office and post it and so we were doing Amazon before Amazon you know yes the context when was this how long this was 1990 this was a long time ago and then if people lived in London live locally I would have a little rucksack and I would deliver some on my way home because then if they ordered in the morning they might get it in the evening which you know would have been good yeah there's proper healthy competition with Savile Row yeah the British shirt maker so how did you get market share we really went for the I say we went for the discount we went promotionally led but it was based on customer research we asked men how many shirts do you buy a year and they said 4.6 on average.

4:41So we did five for the price of four. And so you got your shirt for£27.60, less than M &S, less than German Street, less than anyone else. And you might even get it the next day. But we were quite successful. Then we started running out of stock. And then that was a bit of, that was probably our first. That's a good position to be in there, right? Well, better that way than the other way. Yeah, for sure. And from there to how big is it now? Gosh, I think this year we'll do about 430 million. I think, the way I think about it, and I hope I got the math right, is we sell 20 ,000 shirts a day, which sounds a lot more, actually, than 440 million.

5:17But anyway, yeah. And in context, that's global now, right? That is global, yeah. So we're pretty active in the States, in Europe, Australia. I suppose we're very lucky, and maybe we thought about this at the start, that the quintessential English shirt is something any businessman could or should wear. so we knew we were going into an international market. We did start going international a bit too soon. That might be another big mistake but yeah, maybe we'll come on to that. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for$15 a month is back so I thought it would be fun if we made$15 bills but it turns out that's very illegal.

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6:39So you can make the most out of every decade and dance break. Learn more at drinkag1.com. This is bringing up the entrepreneurial, the sort of things that go right, the things that don't go right, if you like. And it's so much more than shirts. Now I'm wearing a polo shirt. I have to say I love the quality. this thing's been washed countless times and it's you know whereas other brands I find that they stretch they shrink they do all sorts of stuff well I'm delighted you said that I mean you're obviously wearing a smart casual which is of course what we're always trying to do but the way we think about it is it's sort of teaching men to dress well primarily in a sort of work environment but it can also be occasion wear and that sort of thing we're not really doing people for the beach, but in that smart, smart, casual sphere, we're just helping men to buy the right thing.

7:31And that you would know that when you go to an occasion, you look okay. You don't have to feel uncomfortable. You know, it's sort of the right thing to wear. You've experienced a lot of changes from 1990 to 2026. Big one for me that I'm interested in is there is an element of association of formal wear that would have been perhaps pre-COVID particularly. smart jackets, shirts more formal we came out of COVID having all sort of been wearing tracky bottoms and put the t-shirts on and a lot of people didn't come back from that which of course was clearly not in any way suitable for you how did you navigate that?

8:09It was an existential crisis for us because we produced what people wear to the office and no one was going to the office but actually our team were phenomenal, I mean I remember a board meeting and in my memory I said this but you know they might argue but I said look this is actually an opportunity for us and everyone thinks well that's a bit mad because you know we're probably going to go bust but if it's an opportunity it's an opportunity for us because everyone all our competitors have got the same problem that is the stores are closing and so on but you know we were primarily a direct business and we just changed the website the team worked ferociously hard changed the website so instead of having a shirt and time much like the one I'm wearing on the home page we might have a polo shirt or one of those zip tops that became the sort of jacket people wore on Zoom calls.

8:56So we sort of had the product, we just had to change it around. But our sales did plummet by about 35 % in a year. So that was pretty tough. But I think the message to the team was always, if we get through this, we'll be in great shape. And actually since COVID, you know, we've done quite well. None of the competitors didn't make it through that. Yeah, I think, you know, Thomas Pink went under, TM Loons went under, Mospros went under. It was a tough environment. And I think they'd probably say there wasn't much they could have done about it. I mean, if you were predominantly bricks and mortar, you've still got to pay the rent.

9:32If you're a direct consumer, your overheads are a bit lower. So if you're quick at what you do and you change quickly and you innovate, then you can survive. And we just have an amazing team who rose to the challenge and they continue to do that. I imagine you're a really inspirational leader. From leading from the front in that sort of sawn out basement, producing the shirts, if you like, to then being, I'm going to call you optimistic. I think to be an entrepreneur, you have to be optimistic. Exactly. You're in a crisis with COVID. You absolutely have to be an optimist. I think I must say that Nick and I, we're different characters, but we are both optimists.

10:13And I think between the two of us, we probably creator the right culture in the organization. I'm a bit more running around like crazy, getting stuff done. And he's, you know, probably throwing out more innovative ideas than me. But we definitely, I would say the team that we have, they seem to quite enjoy our company. We do the odd ski weekend together and they seem to enjoy that. They keep coming. We're paying for it, but you know, they come along and I think that's right. But I think leadership, I think a lot of that comes from sport. And I think if you've been the captain of a team, you learn that, you know, it's not just about screaming and shouting and, you know, all that stuff.

10:55You've got to actually work out. Some people react to different things and you've got to treat people in a slightly different way. And I would say that I learned a lot about leadership through sport. I also made lots of mistakes, but, you know. Is this for you playing and competing? Yeah, I would say it's playing and competing. And I always use the analogy when I'm talking in schools about why I want kids to become entrepreneurs. It's look, at halftime, if you're playing rugby and you're losing 25-0, if you're the sort of person who thinks, well, okay, we lost this game, maybe we'll win next week, don't be an entrepreneur.

11:30If you're the sort of person that the halftime talk says, look, you know, we got our strategy wrong, we need to change, what are we going to do? Then you might be the person to be an entrepreneur. So I think sport has a lot. It gives a lot to entrepreneurs. And I'm sure there are other things as well. I'm not saying entrepreneurs have to be sports people, not at all. But you learn a lot about running a business from playing sport. Literally this time last week, I was with Lord Sebco, who did a talk at the Centre for Social Justice, their annual drinks, about how sport was the catalyst for him to become the businessman, the politician, the man that he is now.

12:05The geography teacher at his school identified that he was clearly a talent. He was basically, he sat him at the back nearest the door. When the class started to come around, he said, go on, go and train. And recognised, yeah, that Seb had a talent that was not going to be consuring geography. I was shocked to hear that PE is hardly taught in primary school now. And it's been removed. So just listening to you there as a successful business that credits all the values, the competitive element, the fact that you can fail and then you have to keep coming back. You can push yourself. Well, it teaches you resilience, doesn't it?

12:37That's the word. And I suppose I'm a member of the Lord's Taverners charity, which is all about trying to get kids, inner city kids, into playing cricket. And I think when you see those, it's either from disabled or disadvantaged backgrounds or both together. And when you see those kids playing. I mean, that is just wonderful. The joy and also you hope that some of them will get some leadership skills from that as well that might help them or the resilience to one day run their own business too. Who knows? There's a role model piece there. So I'm going to call you out as a role model, as someone who goes into the schools.

13:09And I imagine, I remember people coming in to do talks at my school and many of them would be particularly boring. I bet you are genuine inspiration because of that optimism and because you've got the scars, you've got the experience to pass on? Well, I do do, I've done about 10 speech days now. And the one thing I talk about speech days is I sort of stand up and say, look, I heard 12 speech days at my school. I don't remember any of them. So here's two things. One, I will not speak for longer than seven minutes. And I'm only going to make one point because I know you don't want to hear more than one.

13:37And that's it. And, you know, I normally get a standing ovation there because it's only seven minutes. I think when I was at school, it was about half an hour. So you're always onto a winning wicket there. But I think, I like to go into schools to talk about entrepreneurship because our country needs our brightest and best to start businesses because that's the only way we're going to pay down our debt and so on. But I'm veering off slightly to the political, but I feel very driven by that. No, and there's a mission alignment here as well. Just on that speech, what would be the one point you make?

14:07Well, the title is Mistakes Were Essential. So, and it sounds odd to school kids. It probably sounds odd to a lot of kids. But in business, you absolutely have to make mistakes. Now, you're not deliberately making them, but if you don't try new things constantly, your competitors will, and then they will overtake you. So we say to the people at Charles Street, look, you've got to keep on pushing. Try new things. We don't mind if you make a mistake. In fact, if you make a mistake and come to them and say, I made a mistake, but I've learned this, that's brilliant. If you make a mistake and hide it, that's not good.

14:40If you make a mistake and then make the same mistake two weeks later, that's also not good. But having that culture is really hard to get it, get across. Now, the board believe it. And I'm spending my time now with the sort of the second tier below the board of just, you know, whenever we have a social event, I say, you know, just want to talk to you about mistakes. You know, I just want you to really understand that Nick and I want you to make mistakes. And it's a bit of an odd one, isn't it? Particularly in schools where, of course, you, you know, you mustn't make mistakes. but then you write an essay, you make 10 mistakes, the teacher corrects you, next time you don't make the mistakes.

15:12It's pretty simple really. Oh, it's fascinating listening to you. There's a culture that can come out of school of you mustn't fail. You have to pass your exam. So do you think that's where, just listening to you, it makes so much sense. Again, that message is so important for kids to hear. It's important for all of us to hear. It comes naturally to me because I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm prepared to take risks. I'm prepared to innovate because I know that's the only way that I learn. But a younger version of me, the perfectionist, because there's a part of me where it's like, well, I've been told I need to pass this exam or I fail and I won't get a good job.

15:46I won't get to the university. I won't do whatever the milestones were. So do you come up against any hierarchy pushback from teachers and so on that in any way challenge you? No, I think actually most of the teachers, because of the way it's framed, you know, I'm not saying deliberately make mistakes in your exams or anything like that and make sure you work hard. But I suppose the idea of learning from a mistake you made in an economics essay and getting it right next time, I think they embrace that. The other thing about mistakes or failure, of course, is that, you know, we all know you learn much, much more from the failure or the big mistake.

16:21You know, my first year exams in Cambridge, I slightly ploughed them for lots of reasons to do with too much alcohol the day before. and I said to myself, Walter's right, well, I'm not going to do that again. I'm absolutely, you know, and in the end, I got a pretty good degree. But you had to go through that journey. Absolutely. No one else can do that for you. If I'd done that for my finals, then that probably wouldn't have been great and I would never have got a job at Bain & Company. It's almost cliche to say this, but you can imagine in the context of anyone sitting where you are now that's achieved success, they will in any one way point out the fact that they've only succeeded because they have failed.

17:00Yeah, absolutely. Sitting here now as a successful businessman and multifaceted entrepreneur, how do you define success?

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18:03Learn more at schwab.com slash trading. Oh, now that's a very good one. So I spend a lot of time actually talking to founders and actually senior members of the board. And it's going to sound a bit old, but why doesn't everyone have a four-year personal plan? So you do a personal plan for a business, but why don't you have your own personal plan? because some of these people, some of these founders, they're hugely talented, hugely driven, are very lucky to work with all these people. And then they get to the end game, but they haven't actually worked out what it was for. So I just do a thing. So what's your main goal?

18:41So my main goal now, or it has been for the last 15 years, is to have as much fun with my family and friends as I can. So that's the number one goal. And then what else comes down from that? Well, obviously, health is the next important thing. How am I going to maintain my health? where am I going to have fun, travelling, holidays, whatever and then finally work, career, what else do I want to do so that's my priorities what founders often do is you go away, you drive like mad you're crazy, you sell the business, you make a bit of money and then they're not happy because they never worked out what the money was for what are you going to do with it and so to me that's second nature now But in 2005, when I sold some shares to Nick and sort of stood back from full-time work, it was the first thing I did.

19:31And probably the most important thing I did to make sure I didn't just waste my life after that. The hustle culture can take over, can't it? We can, yeah. And I love that there's so much of what you just said. There's enjoying the journey because the destination, if you think it's, I want to sell the business for 100 million. Yeah. We've probably both met people, and I know I've spent time with a couple of people quite recently where they had a big exit and they got depressed. You try and explain that to anyone outside, but they've not thought it through. Yeah, that's right. And they miss the journey.

20:02They incubated something, they innovated, they grafted, they had a purpose. Yeah. And that was actually what got them up in the morning. Now they don't know what to do with themselves. And that's really important to share, isn't it? You had that vision, you had that. So talk me through that. And that's a really key part of personalising you, if you like, because you had the vision for that. Where did you get that from? Did someone that's like a role model or a mentor share that with you? No, they didn't really. I mean, I think it just, you know, I spent a couple of three years actually at Bain & Company, which was a strategic consulting firm, US firm, pretty well known.

20:37And I spent a lot of my time working on strategic plans. And I thought, well, I guess, why shouldn't I have my own one? You know, it's fairly, I suppose looking back, that appears fairly obvious. But actually, when you mentioned it to founders or other board members, they haven't really thought about it too. And so I work with teams on that. But my main shtick, so 2005, I sell roughly 25 % of the business to Nick. And I go off and work as chair in other businesses. And my selling point is this, look, I've made all the mistakes you're about to make. So I'll help you with the strategy and I'll just stop you making all these big mistakes.

21:16And, you know, because, you know, lo and behold, the strategy for the business I've worked in is sort of quite close to the strategy Charles Stewart has. You know, I'm not a genius, but if you like, I know one thing and I know how to do it pretty well. So that's sort of how it's evolved, really. Thank you for sharing that. I love that because there are certain things you will have learned from other people, but you had the vision and the sort of desire, if you like, to make that vision plan and then execute it. And without any arrogance at all, you look really content. We're all striving to be happy, right?

21:45You look like a very happy person who enjoys life. Yeah, don't strive too hard to be happy. But it's difficult. I mean, my family would say, we talked about this briefly at the start, that to be successful, to run a business and beat the competition, that's stressful. and it's hard work and you need high energy, you get tired. What it means is that when you step back from that, it's quite hard then to bring yourself down to a level where you're not constantly thinking about things. And one of the things someone suggested to me, which actually, I do meditation. I'm not very good at it. I've been doing it for about 10 years, but I do find that that does help me go down a bit from that high octane, high energy driven level of trying to make a business successful.

22:35So I would recommend that to people. What else should you do? I was really interested in that. That's one of the key things I wanted to ask you because you look after yourself. And I'm kind of one of, there's a morning routine because a lot of successful business people swear they've got to get up early, run the marathon, read the book. Where do you fit? I mean, look, I don't get up particularly early, but I will make myself breakfast and I will try to do the meditation then. Now, some days, actually, there's a lot to do, and I don't, which is a mistake. And I think in doing that, if you can just do that, it's really all just about breathing and just slowing your breathing down and slowing your heart rate down and all that sort of stuff.

23:15And I think if I can do that, I have a much more enjoyable day than if I just pile straight in and answer emails. So my thing is, I think you just need to spend a bit of time you know on that but i mean of course every day you know i walk the dog i swim i think those are the only things my body allows me to do i've played a lot of cricket i've played some very bad golf plays an even worse tennis but my back is so knackered now i don't really do that anymore but you know walking the dog uh or long walks actually you know holidays are walking holidays my wife is not so keen but you know we're going to the dolomites in the in september with a with our family and another family you know i can't wait for that yeah being at the top of mountain where nobody can call you is magnificent.

23:53Yes. Breathing in the freshest air. Freshest air. No emails, no texts. Nobody can get anything. So your kids relax, everyone relaxes. And at the end of the week, they just think, God, it's just great not having a phone. I really love not having my phone. What's your relationship with social media? You're an entrepreneur. You know that that brings all sorts of benefits. Charles Tuitt, promoting themselves. You've got role models. You've got Marcus Smith. You've got different people that wear the clothes. Just that analogy, being on top of the mountain, where you just, you know, not enough people are getting out in the fresh air and doing the exercise and getting the endorphins filled naturally because of the attention addiction of social media.

24:29Well, I am proudly a technological Luddite from Yorkshire. Obviously, I'm a Luddite. And I don't do any social media at all. I mean, I sort of understand it and, you know, I get it. And I do, every now and again, I will look at, you know, something that Joe Root has posted, someone will show it me. And it is amazing. my kids showed. Sure. And, you know, Joe is utterly brilliant. Stuart Broad is very good. Marcus Smith is amazing. You know, Matt Dawson is also superb at all these things. You know, they're really good at it. Social media's not for me. I'm too old. I just like talking to people. And I always say to my kids, you know, they're going out with friends in the evening and, you know, I don't know what time they're meeting.