Sir Ben Ainslie: The Relentless Pursuit of Winning | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:00This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more.

0:42Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. So you know if you get it wrong on the SailGP boats, you're the team that got across from side to side when they're maneuvering. If you get that wrong with the turning of the boat and the G-forces, you'll just get wiped off. Tell me who is Sir Ben Ainsley? Yeah, I mean fundamentally I'm a sailor, really.

1:14I mean I spent my whole life sailing. I had some great opportunities for Olympic sailing, America's Cup and more lastly SailGP. In the night of the realm, for achievements of what you've done in sailing, the most successful Olympic sailor of all time. My dad, the first time I went sailing on my own, he pushed me out. He said, oh, well, look, you know, we're off to the pub. You know, it's a mile or so up the creek. We'll see you there. You were bullied at school to then be a really great leader that people can respect. I think I look back on those times, and whilst it was a bit uncomfortable, it was also set me in good stead for the rest of my career.

1:46Face lit up, yeah. You get the opportunity to do it. The speed must be phenomenal. We have no engine. Because, you know, F1, it was like watching F1 on water. Frankly, watching an America's Cup race 20 years ago was a little bit like watching paint dry. Now these races, the boats are phenomenal. You know, they're going speeds over 100 kilometers an hour. It's taken what was a pretty dull sport to watch, frankly, to something that's now really compelling, not just for a sailing audience, but most importantly for a non-sailing audience and a younger audience.

2:25Sorry to interrupt. I've never asked this before, but if you can subscribe and follow, that will allow me to keep bringing extraordinary guests onto the show. Now let's get back to it.

2:38Sir Ben Ainslie, welcome. Hi, John. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Tell me, who is Sir Ben Ainslie? Wow. I try not to talk about myself in the third person too much, unless I can help it. but yeah I mean fundamentally I'm a sailor really I mean I spent my whole life sailing I grew up in Cornwall and either got into sailing there through my family and one thing led to another and suddenly it became a career had some great opportunities for Olympic sailing America's Cup and more lastly SailGP and then I guess in the last couple of years have got into more of the management and the business side of the sport of sailing rather than necessarily just being out on the water myself so on top of that I'm a I'm a husband and a dad got two young kids a great family so yeah that that's pretty much me no thank you for that the eight-year-old that ultimately got bought a boat pushed it out to go sailing for the first time there's a lovely humility about how you introduced yourself there but actually this isn't really part of what you'd really like to do you're probably happiest still sitting on the boat on the water tracking the wind and so on but from that moment when you obviously fell in love with sailing to then all the fame the accolades that come with it how have you managed that yeah it's been a long journey back from my age away i've been i've been at it for a while and like i said i mean i started up you know fundamentally i've always loved sailing still love sailing actually i did a race in cows week just last week which uh those don't know it's a big event down on the solon and i was with a bunch of the young talented sailors coming through and you know had just as much fun doing that as as i ever have so that love of the sport is still there and always has been but yeah i guess it started getting serious when i was a teenager and opportunities to get involved with the olympics and and like i said then sail gp america's cup the professional side of the sport so it's uh like all these things it's it's been hard work it's been in the right place at the right time having all the support be that from family friends you know sponsors backers you know along the way so it's it's been a fantastic journey yeah but just managing what became fame and and kind of achievement being been a knight of the realm for achievements with what you've done in sailing the most successful olympic sailor of all time and i guess there was a competitive element to you to be able to then take on the sailing as a profession and achieve what you've done but just actually that whole fame front and center of having to do press and so on how have you worked on that well firstly i think sailing's changed a lot and it's becoming a much much more high profile sport in recent years but it's not you know it's not like being a footballer or another super high profile sport you know i can walk down the street here in london and no one's gonna you know bother me so in on one on the one hand you know it's taken sailing a long time to really commercialize itself and start getting the profile which i think and anyone who's who loves the sport thinks that it you know it needs to create um on the other hand it's allowed me a certain degree of privacy that i guess other top sports people probably wouldn't have so there are definitely some benefits to that yeah i get that we were talking before we started filming and we met briefly at sail gp at portsmouth a couple of weeks ago and i was saying i've been at the f1 at silverstone in panic club two weeks before and it had this similar vibe it really was a well put on event And then, of course, the boats themselves, they're more like, they're not even sailing yachts anymore almost.

6:27And you've been sort of privy and close to the evolution of what we now call sailing. I'd love to get your thoughts on that because the speeds these boats are getting at now and just the spectacle, because it does feel like that's becoming a really popular sport. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, sailing has transformed itself really in the last 10, maybe 15 years. really the advent of the foiling boats that we saw in the America's Cup in 2013 and that has just grown through America's Cup and now more likely into SailGP and a sport that you know even as someone who's a massive sailing fan frankly watching an America's Cup race 20 years ago was a little bit like watching paint dry but you know now these these races they are the boats are phenomenal you know they're going speeds over 100 kilometers an hour the races are that much shorter you know america's cup race is typically around you know 20 minutes target time cell gp is more like 10 minutes they're in what we call for sailing stadium racing so they're very close to the shoreline the spectators are there as you saw in in portsmouth right in the thick of the action and it's taken what was again pretty dull sport to watch frankly to something that's now really compelling not just for a sailing audience but most importantly for a non-sailing audience and a younger audience so it's for me having come through that transition I feel hugely privileged to have gone from so one era of sailing professional sailing into this new modern era of it and to to have been part of that process it's been a it's been an incredible learning process and I really do think that the prospects for sailing into the future commercially GEC positive.

8:13It feels like it. It's an exciting time. I remember growing up, and we're similar age, 1977, I've just dropped you right in it and now keep me age. You've just aged slightly. Yes, yeah. But I grew up around plenty of people that loved yachting, boating and that traditional element of kind of having a sail, rigging. Is there a resistance to where it's gone and how it's innovated to what it it is now where there isn't even an actual sail to a certain extent there is and i i and i do i do appreciate that view of the traditionalist sailor um that's used to having soft sails and sails that go up and down and cruder get involved with grinding pulling sails in and out and that's still a huge part of the sport like i said i raced in cowsbury last week and that had i think a 50 percent uptick in the number of boats from the previous year so there is a definitely a resurgence in that kind of grassroots if you want to call it traditional kind of sailboat racing which is fantastic for the sport but i think you've got to differentiate that from the hardcore professional side of america's cup sail gp sure you know jules verne which is non-stop around the world those kind of challenges which are right at the cutting edge of technology and again for the sport to be successful commercially you know you need you've got to have you know a compact viewing pro program or schedule you've got the boats going to be cutting edge technology they've got to be the fastest the most technologically advanced that the athletes have got to be absolutely you know the best in the world that can deal with with sailing these kind of boats so in some ways actually that's quite positive because it's quite a distinct a shift there between your grassroots traditional kind of sailboat racing and then your you you know the hardcore professional side of the sport yeah it's another level isn't it if anything that probably keeps the tiers in place there's plenty of people that we all know as friends and people you'll know that race competitively still with a a canvas sail if you like and so and then there's the next level which you know and then and then i think that elevates it's like f1 the f1 car does not look like anything that we see on the roads but it all feeds into it doesn't it and then the technology the advancements from the the pinnacle feed back into what is the mainstream yeah absolutely there's so much feedback on or trickle down like you say from the technology be that america's cup sale gp that will impact the sport for you know decades to come and actually we've we found not just on the sailing side but the whole marine industry you know we we founded a technologies company alongside the America's Cup team, that creates design and the intellectual property for what we call wind wings, which are effectively the wings are on a SailGP boat or used to be on an America's Cup boat, putting on commercial bulk carriers.

11:16And that has a huge impact on the level of CO2 that those ships and the shipping industry, So, you know, we all know the challenges in terms of global warming and so on. So to be able to have that sort of impact on the marine industry as well, I think it's not just your sailboat races out there, but there's a whole wider industry out there that we can have a positive impact on. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business.

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12:36Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Yeah, I never would have thought about it. It's great you've explained that. I'd love to humanise you with the fact that when we met at Portsmouth, it wasn't a great event for ultimately Great Britain. But there's so much success and achievements that you've had along the way. And they started as you on your own and accountable to yourself and your own kind of leadership and working your way through what, of course, was a very successful time. So now managing people and being part of a team. I want to know that sort of transition, how that's been for you.

13:13yeah it was a big shift you're right Spain best part of 20 odd years as a single-handed athlete sailor in the Olympic world and then started making that transition into the America's Cup and then and then into into SailGP and and other other competitions in the professional side of the sport so it was yeah initially it was it was a challenge and uh certainly wouldn't claim that it was a seamless transition and understanding just that impact if you're in a leadership role in a team, how your mood, your communication style is just how that's going to impact those around you. And a bit of trial and error took me a while.

13:56It's definitely needed a few little pieces of advice along the way in terms of how to manage that. And that's all part of learning and developing so can i open that up i'm really interested to know actually because if you look at the the role model you are to so many people through what you would see solo which and which places you into the perfect position to be into that team what was what was almost the tricky transition was there an element of frustration where because you have control oh yeah you're nodding where you you you and then you're accountable to yourself so you can give yourself a hard time i should have done that could have done that better that's then got to be manage when you're managing a team oh you're i mean you're absolutely spot on and i think most individual sports people would say that their own harshest critic and you kind of need to be right you know there's no one that'd be not you can't look anywhere else other than to yourself to to find out where the issues are and how to improve performance obviously when you're in a team environment you know you've got to be more sensitive to your different people react to we say advice criticism uh in different ways and that's a big that was a big learning curve for me is understanding the psyche of your your teammates knowing you know which which put which individual is going to respond differently uh in a tricky situation and that takes time and that's you know we're all learning i think even at our vintages in life we're still learning every day you learn hundred percent and uh that i think that's part of the the beauty of life yeah i mentioned that that term role model i wanted to pass something on to you i i was talking to someone on um sunday a few days ago that was going to be uh sitting down and interviewing you he's 21 years old and he said oh my god i'd love you to pass this on to him i was when i was doing my um uh competitive swimming in my teens um so ben would come and present the medals to us and he would give a speech you give a talk and he said it was the most um raw proper feedback of how to make it as a professional rather than perhaps anything glossy or just you know anything that might yeah he's smiling but he said i really wanted to pass it on and i thought actually in a world where we've allowed the manosphere to develop where the wrong role models seem to be rising to the top i wondered if you genuinely see yourself and understand how important you have been to that young lad and to other people as a role model yeah i mean thanks for the feedback i mean i was really fortunate my well my my family were an amazing support my dad in particular as all you know young youngsters getting into whatever walk of life they're in they're in but parents your family are obviously a massive influence but my dad was a fantastic support sounding board and the beauty of of that kind of advice is it's very straightforward and there's no sugar coating and sometimes there's you know some some brutally honest conversations but that that's kind of what you need so yeah i guess that's how i try and approach the advice that you know i'm giving youngsters is that you know fundamentally there can't be any excuses and you've got to take responsibility for your own performance and make it happen i think honestly we all crave the honesty if there's someone that's trying to be a bit creative in their advice and it's not actually you know perhaps practical it's not what your lived experience is in i want i'd love to touch on that i mentioned right at the beginning that you were bought the boat at eight years old and i've read and heard that there was no life jacket there was no kind of like this is how you do it you're almost just like off you go although there's a clearly a safety element to that there's the flip side in today's culture and maybe helicopter parenting and trying to do too much for the kids i feel like there was an element of freedom and an element of um you learned it for yourself that perhaps made you the person that you are now by having that upbringing with it with an overriding steer from your father and your parents when it was needed yeah that's it's it's all a balance isn't it really i mean my my dad was an amazing sailor he sailed around the world he took part skip at a boat in the very first race around the world it's appropriately sponsored by whitbread breweries and he he you know my my mom as well so my family loved sailing but like you say my dad the first time i went sailing on my own he pushed me out he said oh well look you know we're off to the pub it's a you know it's a mile or so up the creek we'll see you there and do you think that was deliberate do you think that was a coming of age bit like that let ben work this out for himself yeah i think so because he never whilst he would come down and he would help me from time to time and rig up the boat and get out, he wouldn't really get involved with the coaching side of it.

18:40And maybe that's, you know, he was more of an offshore racer, wasn't really an inshore sailor. But he always just seemed to have that right balance. You know, the advice that he would give me was more, you know, life guidance, you know, big picture kind of advice rather than, oh, you missed that wind shift or you should attack or jibe there, or, you know, why did you have a rubbish start? or you know that he didn't really get involved at that level and you know i think that that was seriously helpful because you know i was able to turn to him when when i really needed to on on something that was a you know becoming a major issue yeah and and rightly probably relied on and more specific coaching advice for for the the you know the the the racing focus stuff yeah it's lovely you brought your father into this because one of the really sad parts of this whole how the manosphere has happened and the kind of identity crisis in young legs today is the lack of father figure in families with so many broken homes and perhaps fathers that are in their own way struggling with their own way of getting through life and not being able to pass that all on we're both fathers there's an element of you understanding how that was for you to then bring into your own way of fathering and then there's the elements of travel and busy life of all you do how have you got that balance yeah interesting question uh it's it's well it's it is it is like you say it's a balance i mean i'm you know incredibly fortunate georgie my wife she's you know got many strings to her bows she's got her own business she's got lots of interests and And so we managed to get the scheduling and figure it out.

20:27And we've got a daughter, Bellatrix, who's 10, and our son, Fox, who's five. So just trying to go through that schedule and figure out where we can be as a family, where not. And, you know, we've had some incredible experiences as a family, America's Cup in New Zealand in 21 and then in Barcelona in 24. So that's been trying to pull the family into that. But at the same time, you know, the kids are at school. Georgie has her own interests and supporting one another through that. So it's not, I think the important thing is it's not all just sailing and America's Cup and CLGP. And that's all we focus on.

21:06You know, the family have all got their own interests. I think that's really important, particularly for the kids moving forwards. You know, our daughter's into riding horses, which is seriously concerning in terms of, I don't think I'm going to be retiring anytime soon, paying the bills for that. but she's really really into it i mean she loves it you know she's the one that's in the car pack the car you know pushing georgie and i to to make sure we're not late for for the for the next lesson so if they're you know into into whatever it is sport or anything else i think that's just what you want as a parent isn't it your kids are focused on something other than you know being on the tablet or the phone or just getting distracted by social media and everything that comes with you know you've done well to manage that was there was there a pressure at all is there a pressure that in any way may even come from you subconsciously to follow into sailing in any way was there an element of here's your topper dinghy see what happens sort of thing to repeat or have you almost stayed away from that yeah almost stayed away from it i mean i'd love it you know if they got into sailing of course i would we live in wimbledon i mean there is a there is a just down the road but it's it's not that easily accessible for for them in in where we live you know if they if they decide to want to get into sailing down a road that would be great but just any sport really i think i'd love them to get any whatever it is just to be passionate about it and we'll see where that ends up yeah there's an interesting it's beautiful to see actually the whole equalizing of women in sport you know so you mentioned your daughter and how far she can go with where she goes with horse riding so whether it becomes not just a hobby but actually a career and just just referring that back to you from the eight-year-old that kind of went out and learned to literally to sail to then having the career you've had when was that moment where you were like I could actually I'm good enough to do this to professionally and make that kind of mindset shift i was a teenager i was actually just in the first year of my a levels and the boat that i sailed then called a laser which is single-handed dinghy became an olympic class and that then i could see that avenue i was doing well at youth level but to have that route then through to potentially having a crack at olympics was that was a game changer for me and actually managed to win the olympic trials i was 18 so i was still in the middle of my a levels and had a pretty tricky decision whether to finish off the A-levels or to take a year out and focus on the Olympics and had a few interesting discussions with my parents in the end uh took the year out and and I did go back and finish my A-levels later on but I guess that was a turning point for me that you know qualifying for the Olympics really and and then you know seeing a pathway through to the America's Cup and and SailGP and and other events and you know really I've taken that learning, we've set up the Athena Pathway program, which is trying to make that transition easier for those talented youngsters now coming through.

24:10They might be in the Olympic squad or they might be racing Olympic games, but how do they transition from that to America's Cup, SELGP, other professional areas of the sport? So that's working well. And I think we can do a good job for that next generation. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most.

24:53Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. I thought about what you'd have done if that hadn't worked out for you.

25:30Was that also part of what drove you? I believe from what I've seen and read, and I can relate to this, that I wasn't academic. So I wasn't looking at my A-levels as the springboard to then go into an academic career. So actually for you, excelling in sailing and then making that a career path, was that almost a key driver to make it even better? yeah to a certain extent i mean i yeah i definitely wasn't wasn't wasn't going to oxbridge anytime soon but yeah i i didn't have any clear career path other than than sailing so to a certain extent there was pressure to to get the results and to to make that work who knows sort of would have happened if if that if that route hadn't hadn't played out for me uh you know i don't know but uh yeah i thankfully no i get it i was just interested to know because that if you look at if you if you take that cross section of um five five back-to-back olympics there's four years between each one and i'm just interested to know whether there was because the success story is what it is but in between each one were there lows were there times where things weren't going right where they were dig deep time yeah so in between really i mean the first thing I did was 96 and then 2000 and after 2000 I got involved with the America's Cup for the first time and that was then a trend through really after in between Olympic cycles I was also getting involved with the professional side with America's Cup um CLGP didn't exist then and that was a big learning experience to go through which we talked about that transition into a big big team 100 plus people 18 people on the boat mega budgets and the business side of sport really and that that really i think was gave me the opportunity to keep building my career so i didn't feel like i was being stagnant which often in speaking to other olympic athletes sports people those four years like you say in between they can be tough long years where you're training training intensely and you're just building up for this big event in four years time so that definitely helped to break that cycle that said there were some moments the first America's Cup team I got involved with you know as we talked about I struggled a little bit making that transition into that big team environment I'd stayed for about 18 months and then decided to get back and focus on the 2004 Olympics but that definitely helped me put me in good stead when I did then get involved with america's cup again in the future i was better set up to to deal with that big team environment yeah and just staying with that that sort of olympic period there's an element of um a lack of funding often in through the whole kind of olympics athletics and so on particularly in the uk until the lottery funding came in what was your experience of that that's well absolutely i mean we had to thank john major really for the the lottery and the lottery funding that then came through to Olympics and yeah first games I went to we had Steve Redgrave and Matthew Pinson who both you know the people I really looked up to as well still do but certainly as a youngster coming into Olympic sport they were the only gold medal out of 96 I think there were a handful of silver medals and bronze medals but it was a very disappointing result and I remember being involved with some of those early discussions about lottery funding what that would mean and how that could be put to best use and you have to take your hat off to to the governance of of of BOA and UK sport how they distributed those funds and already by 2000 we'd seen a dramatic uptick in the performance of British Olympic squad and that's continued through and yeah fantastic to see that support and and and not only the results for those teams but also We talked about it earlier, that sort of knock-on effect of what that meant for a whole generation of people in the UK interested in sport, getting inspired by those performances.

29:34Yeah, I just think of the timing about where 2012 was such a blow-up, wasn't it? And perhaps the timing of all that came in those years earlier allowed athletes to come through and flourish. I'm just thinking as well, the transition of bootstrapping from E-Wire to then the America's Cut, which is like the Billionaires' Cut. like if you sort of went from famine to feast there's the most amazing comeback story that i actually don't know all the details other than clearly eight nil down new zealand thrashing the u.s winning nine eight and you're at the heart and epicenter of this i know how humble you are but i just want to unpick just what happened there for that to be such an amazing comeback the way where you sat with that well i'm not sure we've got enough time in your podcast but It was an incredible experience.

30:22Again, I talked about earlier being in the right place at the right time. It was definitely one of those moments. But yeah, we were actually 8-1 down in the first to win 9. We came back to win it 9-8. This was a completely new class of boat. And I talked about it earlier, this transition of sailing into foiling boats. And so both team, New Zealand and Oracle team USA, two teams right at the top of the world of sailing. very experienced developed technical organizations and the amount even though we're in the competition and people were sort of in their final teams were in their final configuration the development of the performance how to sail the boats how to derive maximum performance out of the kit that you've got was just phenomenal in those days with that new class of boat learning this foiling technology so I would say you know with Oracle Team USA we increased our performance by at least over 25 % something like that through you know those 10 days of competition and New Zealand has also you know got a lot quicker but just not quite as as developed and you can understand that really because they were 8-1 up you could you could understand why they would be saying well you know let's not risk anything too much here we you know probably got this 1-1 we just need to you know get one more race whereas we were forced to with oracle we were forced to keep developing keep pushing hard and so that increase in performance was just mind-blowing really and there was lots of other stuff that went on in the background but it was uh like i said it was a huge privilege to be part of that and just part of sport storytelling storytelling's at the heart of the best sport stories because it's so unpredictable you could have predicted that whatever the odds would have been for a 9-8 victory it's it's off the scale yeah no it really was and it was interesting i met in the build-up to the event because i i got involved after london 2012 games and i was quite late into the team and i was sort of really there as a backup and i met a guy called tom perkins who those are into venture capital he was the he was pretty much the the father of venture capitalism in in silicon valley amazing business career hewlett packard then kleiner kleiner perkins and and designing developing the industrial laser just the list goes on and i met him we randomly ended up having dinner together and he said oh look you're gonna you're gonna be a big part of this america's cup i said well i really don't think so tom because i'm just here so i'm supporting he said no no i can see you know and uh when i look back on it now And that was, it was amazing that, you know, to meet someone like that and just the way everything played out.

33:10But yeah, it's, life has a funny way of developing like that. You just don't know quite what's going to happen next. I guess that's the, you know, that's what's fascinating about it. That makes it interesting from your point of view being at the heart of it. And then from a fan's point of view, just watching, especially when it's live and it's unfolding. and then to be able to have this conversation where you're learning about some of the things that you wouldn't have known about. You look like you're in really good shape, right? So there's muscle memory there. Very deceptive. Well, I'm interested because you're an athlete, ultimately, and there would have been a very clear goal to keeping fit, both mentally and physically, particularly physically from being fit to sail the boat.

33:54And when you had that next competition and that next challenge, clearly that's a good incentive. Where do you sit now with prioritizing your mental and your physical fitness? That's a great question. And it is tough going from being a dedicated sports person to then not really being that focused on the training. And I do find mentally as well, if you're not training, it's just having that release. They're really linked, aren't they? Yeah, for sure. So I run a lot and actually run just as much for the mental side of things than the physical. I really enjoy that. And traveling a lot, it's just so much easier just to put a pair of trainers in the bag.

34:36So, yeah, I found that a really interesting transition. And, again, as you get older, you know, your body, you know, you can't quite get away with what you used to when you were younger. And the recovery time takes more. so yeah I I'm we've got some great we've got a great team there that are helping us on the human performance side across America's Cup CLGP but I'm badgering them constantly for you know how you know what training program should I be on and how can I uh you know around you know that balance around around all the other aspects of your life trying to trying to fit in the training but it is it's such an important part of your your you know mental well-being as much as your physical well-being there's an identity element as well that by Ben the Olympic sailor having all the success that you had and I guess did it help you that America's Cup and other things transitioned in at the same time rather than a hard stop so for example different athletes I've spoken to over the years whether that's Johnny Wilkinson from a rugby point of view other people that have said when I stopped that was a terrible time for me because suddenly I was I was used to a certain amount of uh competition ahead of me perhaps some adulation that went on and then everything just stops i think you'd have not been so bothered about that but you get my point that the adrenaline that comes from turning up um with a competition to win and and i guess did you find that transition wasn't so bad for you because you kind of went into it in a different way yeah it is tough for sure because your whole life is you know focused on on competition isn't it and and all the different facets that come with that.

36:21To a certain extent, that transition for Olympics and then into America's Cup, so GP made that easier. I mean, to a certain extent, I'm going through that phase now in my professional life where I'm not racing anymore. I come involved with the management side of the teams, which is fascinating and brings a whole load of other challenges with it. But I do miss the competition. I do miss being right at the front of it, in the thick of it, dealing with the pressures, getting the buzz out of competition but you know life moves on and you know you've got to find other avenues going into the management side of it you know that's a full-on you know focus so that's good it's a good distraction I guess yeah from exactly from missing that hardcore competition but you're always you're always going to miss that to a certain extent and you know that's that's just the challenge yeah one thing that stays a constant for you is leadership because you've come through leading yourself to that now being seen as a leader in that environment what would you say are the most important values in leadership to you in my experience uh empathy empathy is really you know it goes back to what i was saying earlier about getting into that that role you know leading the teams on the water and understanding the different individuals yeah honesty as well and that can be tough because sometimes having a a brutally honest conversation that that's not necessarily that positive with with a team member is you know it's difficult i mean i guess that's where the empathy comes into it so those would be my uh two key facets yeah a lot of people could describe you as successful and had an incredibly successful career to date.

38:13Sitting here now, how do you define success? This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

38:51It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. that's indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply need a hiring hero this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs i mean i'm i'm probably the first to say that results you know do the talking and certainly in a sporting environment that's got to be the case and you look at so if you look at a commercial sports team well or a professional sports team the commercial element of that has got to be rated as you know the success of the team as as well as obviously the the performance side but often say you know if your performance isn't there then you you know trying to sell a you know an underperforming sports team commercially is is is that much harder so again i think performance is is number one and setting those goals and achieving those goals striving to achieve those goals and that's really what what drives the whole team yeah and then around that making sure that the the environment is there to give those people the absolutely the best opportunity to go out and and do that and having having the right culture and all of that takes time and it's never perfect and it's always evolving and i think it's often a mistake that teams or individuals make to want this sort of nirvana of perfection.

40:32Even the best sports teams or sports organizations in the world have numerous challenges that they're constantly facing. And I think the leadership part of that is really trying to guide the team through that. And whatever those challenges are, work through it and keep everyone on that same focus to that goal. I love that. I know just using those two words, honesty and empathy, which for me really encompasses self-awareness. I know from things, again, I've read and listened to in the build-up to meeting today that you were bullied at school. So there was an element of a young Ben that perhaps would have guard up and barriers.

41:16And then there's the whole competitive side of sport. where you don't show weakness. And so the mature version of you, there's actually something that's relatable to me in this conversation as well, where you let your own barriers down, you let, sort of vulnerability and strength is probably where I'm going with this, to then be a really great leader that people can respect. And even if it's not what you want to hear, it's honest, it's raw. Going back to that 21 year old kid George, he was like, that's what I needed to hear. And I feel like that role model piece for you, if you haven't had anyone hasn't articulated it in that way it's the fact that that's what we all need to hear and perhaps you go away a bit angry but then you work on yourself and then you also the vulnerability piece means it gives permission for someone else to be able to say well actually maybe I should express how I'm really feeling does that make sense yeah yeah absolutely I mean yeah it's it's absolutely true I struggled a little bit at school for for uh um some different reasons but that definitely was part of my development process and it you know sure as hell toughened me up and and that stayed with me through my whole life uh but flip side of that is you know being being hard and you know dealing with it with those kind of challenges definitely in the competitive world of sport you need that you've got to stand your ground and i think you you know you said it earlier you know you you have to you have to fight and you have to fight for every inch and you can't back down.

42:44Flip side of that is the human element of understanding. Well, just what it's like to be on the other side of, of, uh, you know, an intense, um, situation or relationship and the empathy that comes with that. So yeah, I, I, I, I think I look back on, on those times and, you know, whilst it was a bit uncomfortable. It was also, you know, set me in good stead for the rest of my career. And it's given inspiration to so many others and will continue to. I so look forward to this conversation, Ben. And I know how busy you are, so thank you for making time. I hope you've enjoyed it. Yeah, no, it's been great.

43:26It's been a pleasure. Thanks, John. Thank you. Thanks. Cheers, man.

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