The Secret to Spotting Great Entrepreneurs | Tom Teichman | Extraordinary Life Stories

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0:50Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. Yeah, I was the first backer of lastminute.com, the first backer of North and the High Street, first backer of Cobalt Music, largest independent music company in the world. There's track record precedents, but there's a gut feeling. Yeah, there's a gut feeling. That's the key to me. The guy who founded Calm, I backed him when he was 23. It's the person. You've got such a journey to go on that's difficult. And then if you haven't got the passion for the business, you were just in it to make the money. That doesn't work.

1:27You've got to be emotionally committed and ready to go over the top and do stuff that you probably wouldn't do or you imagined you would never do. What about you now? What motivates you now? Well, it's to find talented people and help them succeed. So you've not lost the passion for that at all? No, no, I love it. I love doing that. And it's very rare. How good were you at listening then? Early on, when I was in investment banking for a long time, I wasn't really, no, I wasn't very good at it. I wasn't really good because I wasn't really listening. I was just running for the next deal, you know, to make a fee, to do a bond issue or do an equity issue.

2:02Just in do mode all the time. And that's not healthy. If you give, you'll receive. You know, treat people like you want to be treated. That's the key.

2:22Sorry to interrupt. But I've never asked this before, but if you can subscribe and follow, that will allow me to keep bringing extraordinary guests onto the show. Now, let's get back to it.

2:35Tom, welcome. Thank you. Looking forward to this conversation. Me too. Tell me, who is Tom Teichman? Well, I'm a young guy. I come from Hungary when I was a kid, came to England. I'm educated here. And my interest is investing. It's in people, really. but that leads to an interest in investing I love investing in young companies and that's what I've done for the last 25 years and sometimes it's gone really well not always but sometimes I guess they're the ones we hear about they're the ones you hear about the others are buried quietly there's some significant ones though I know there's lastminute.com yeah I was the first backer of lastminute.com the first backer of North and High Street first backer of Cobalt Music largest independent music company in the world the first backer of wayla one of the biggest agency companies in the world so yeah sometimes in corporate you know in entities or funds that i started sure but um it's essentially backing these by um knowing or feeling that you know how the entrepreneurs would operate that's so important isn't it so there's so there's all the data there's all the stats there's there's track record precedence but there's a gut feeling yeah there's a gut feeling That's the key to me.

3:50And, you know, are they committed? Are they creative? Are they going to listen to advice? Because some people don't. And normally I look for a group of people where there are two, you know, one tech guy and one salesperson. Like lastminute.com is a classic example. So, but that's not who I am, but that's just my business side. I'm most interested in people and I've studied psychotherapy and stuff like that. What are the qualities in people that you're looking for? So if someone's coming to you and has come to you and impressed you and so on, because I know you said about listening and so on, but that whole kind of like what's the magic kind of dust, if you like.

4:29What's really important is that they can express themselves very clearly, very quickly, very succinctly, and that they will listen to you and react. And you believe that they're going to go on listening to you. They're interested in you and the world around them. and they haven't got like a fixed world view they're open to new ideas and influences and and and the other very important thing is that they can speak to subordinates their partners and their investors in a in a way that is credible and quick and clear it's really really important that's great to share that and there are the success stories that you mentioned holly tucker for example who's been on this this program yes holly yeah such a brilliant entrepreneur had a force of nature i can imagine you guys yeah vibed really well but there must be times where it's frustrated you where perhaps the the person hasn't stepped up to be perhaps because the founder isn't always the person to take the business forward and then that's where perhaps the listening gets eliminated have you had that experience well usually i've tried to find people who can stay stay the course because it's their it's their ability to sell to make decisions to motivate people that that don't really change and they're crucial and so you very rarely very Very rarely have I found that the people I started with aren't the people there five, ten years later.

5:46If I can name ten companies like that that I've taken from first investment to IPO or to trade sale, where the people are the same. The key is the people. The business always changes, but the people and how they make decisions, how they react, how open-minded they are, how committed they are, that's the key. There have been cases that haven't worked, but most of the ones that have worked have depended on people like that which are very hard to find someone who look you in the eye and really give you the truth truth so important because it comes out and what's particularly in entrepreneurship and business because you know you've got such a journey to go on that's difficult and then if you haven't got the passion for the business you were just in it to make the money that that can oh that doesn't that doesn't work no you've got to be emotionally committed and ready to you know go over the top and do stuff that you probably wouldn't do or you imagined you would never do but you have to do you know in terms of working making decisions motivating people talking to investors there's a load of stuff you know running a board you know it's very important so what about you now what motivates you now because there's a there's a version of you that doesn't have to be sitting here with me now you could be sitting on a desert island with a cocktail and don't need to do anything but there's a driving sitting on a desert island having a cocktail in my mind yeah love that there's an element of that we can we can make happen in here no you get my point there's there's still a driving there's a sort of flicker in your eye what's that drive well it's to find talented people and help them succeed so you've not lost the passion for that at all no no i love it i loved it i love doing that but it's very rare i don't often find people like that who i think yes this is going to work i mean it's one in a hundred i mean so many just you know they're it for the wrong reason or they haven't got the commitment or the sales talent or the or even the ability to explain things well and quickly it's that agility i'm looking for and every time every now and then i find people like that and then i say well let's do something yeah but as a partnership then where do you see yourself as that kind of that mentor and so there's there's the energy and there's the uh commitment if you like and the idea that that person comes but then how are you kind of mentoring and shaping their journey?

8:01Well, as I said earlier, they have to be people who listen. So I have to be satisfied they're kind of on my wavelength, which isn't always right, but it has been quite often. So I make sure that they're on my wavelength and I can really communicate with them. And so what was the question again? Well, actually flipping it to, what are they learning from you? Well, they're learning from me. And that brings in all that experience, all the track record and knowledge you've got and back to the gut feel and take them through as that as that sort of perhaps mentor well I think what they need to learn is to listen listening is very very important like I studied psychotherapy counseling and when I first sold my first business I went off to do a one year psychotherapy counseling course that taught me a lot because they're the first time in your life you're taught to listen to people and keep your mouth shut and just listen and that's a very very impressive lesson because the things that people are thinking about are nothing like you think they're thinking about.

8:59It's amazing. They do something in psychotherapy counseling called triads. When one person talks about anything that's in their brain, one person listens and the other one observes. And you're not allowed to interject or say anything. And the things that come out are incredible. So you learn, I learned, rather late in life to listen or to really make that a mainstay of the way I approach things. Just to listen. It doesn't always work, but often it's a good thing. Because they know when you're listening or when you're just letting it fly by you or when you're not really paying attention. People know.

9:38Sincerity, you know. Sincerity, if you can fake that, you're done. You know, that's an old joke. But people have to be really sincere. The perfect lunch combo. That first bite of your favorite sub, followed by ice-cold Pepsi. Add a couple of friends, and now that's next level. Suddenly, the laughs get louder, the stories keep flowing, and the food tastes better because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more fun, and more of the moment. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi Zero Sugar today. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work?

10:18It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. That's fascinating to listen to that, isn't it? Yeah, it is because the two ears, one mouth. Yes, yes. Phrase, if you like, is not often put into practice. you know and i i'd like to think one of the passions i've got to have the opportunity and the privilege to sit with someone like yourself and to to listen comes naturally but a younger version of you dare i say younger version of myself that driven motivated um entrepreneur how good at you how good were you at listening then then in the early on when i was i was in investment banking for a long time i wasn't really no i wasn't very good at it i wasn't really good I was just running for the next deal, you know, to make a fee, to do a bond issue or do an equity issue.

11:25And that's a completely different kind of talent that is about knowing markets, you know, getting your bid in, running, convincing. But that's something where you don't really have to listen. You're just in do mode all the time. And that's not healthy. No. So I got out of that. And then I started investing in small companies. And then they started to go public. and then I created a fund and now I'm in the investment business. Yeah, I guess what that does mean is it gives you a lot more perspective because you've got that multifaceted part to you where you've been the dealmaker, you've been the guy that there's a relentless sales side of things so there'll be a calmer version of yourself.

12:08Yeah, K-A-R-M-A, calmer. But when you're doing that sort of job in a big investment bank, It's a very hectic, very life-destroying, difficult business. So you have to get over that way of looking at things and listen to people and watch. So I was fortunate. I invested in some great entrepreneurs. One was, he was 21. He was 21. He now runs a business worth a couple of billion. This was many years ago. But immediately I thought, yeah, this guy's great. I gave him his first check. yeah so i really like and i can feel off you is there's a there's a lack of ego there's a there's a measured ego in that you're more than happy to share the success you've had and it's it's shared you love you love championing the the guy you backed at 21 but then he had to do what he needed to yeah he did the business yeah he was amazing but it's a really nice character trait i want to pass that back to you that you it's like you are you are wanting to sort of share the success of the other people that have done well.

13:09And that's done with sort of a genuine authenticity. Because they've done the running. I mean, obviously I raise money for them. I find partners. I help them expand. I do a lot of stuff for them. But always talking to them. And then the way you handle a board, a board meeting, like I chair some companies I have done over the years, including public companies, the way you handle a board is very important. You need trust. They need to trust you. you're not BSing them that you're really giving them your full attention and giving them ideas and you're being discreet all this kind of stuff is very important you can't go chomping around like an elephant in a China shop do you know Paul Drexler I know the name I don't know why he used to be the president of the CIB the chairman of international business and he's he's chair of different businesses right he said to me about leadership he said it's like being the conductor of the orchestra but ultimately absolutely playing for themselves I've got that feeling from you and I wanted to open up that conversation about leadership yeah because you you when you're like I had a board meeting this morning I won't mention the company but there was quite a bit of conversation about the future about raising money about bringing outside investors and I had to speak to all those stakeholders they're all in the room together six of them you know what are we going to do what are our main opinions on this subject and how about the big shareholders you know what's it going to do to your life what's it going to do to your wealth you know all these things you need to be like honest and sincere about because it affects them a great deal can affect their the future their families so you have to really be very careful to make sure you really listen to their input and give them honest honest feedback it's not always right but um at least you get them talking they're not in conflicts conflict can start very easily and then you've got a real problem so with that that kind of leadership element there's your own style of leadership and then there's empowering uh others and encouraging others to be the leader they need to be to take a company forward and be successful what are the key values there for what for the leadership the leadership that stand out for you uh the key values that they have or that you say are the ingredients so you've got you've got this great kind of algorithm now of businesses that and people that you backed and for me there must be some buddies that stand out as what make great leadership yeah nimbleness of mind the ability to tell a story in a few sentences uh very very clearly the ability to adapt to your audience the ability to talk to investors in an honest way don't mislead them and to talk to your colleagues in a way that that you're listening to them you know those are all the things that i look for but obviously energy creativity if you take some of the businesses i back they're backed by remarkable people but they weren't I mean like the guy who the guy who founded Calm you know I backed him when he was 23 Moshi Monsters Michael have you interviewed I don't know we're connected to do it he's just been too busy but well when I when he was 23 I thought wow this guy is great and we started a new company and it was very it didn't go very well but in the end we created Moshi Monsters and went very well and then he created calm uh he's been you know he's been amazing but he's 23 he had this game which was chess where you put drinks in every time you took a player and drunk it and it was a student game but i could see his ability then he backed him yeah him oh yeah the person absolutely it's the it's the person you know i've got a whole rota of people like that i've been lucky lucky enough to spot so with that in mind and i really relate to that in terms of how i do my business and how i want to it's invitation only to be sitting with me and then i've gotten afforded to be with that person we now live in a world with ai i'm worried about where that will remove the human element where you sit about i don't think it ever will i mean i had a very good example recently where i had a board meeting i was chairing a board meeting and the point of conflict came up but we were all remote so it blew it blew out you know blew out of all recognition the stupid little argument because when when you can't say hi to the person or tap him on the shoulder and say what are you talking about you idiot stop saying this stuff you know yeah yeah but when once you're remote uh you're operating in your mind and not your senses so much and a lot of problems can come up so the ai thing is okay and it's very useful for gathering information but um not for making decisions i mean it could never spot the talent uh that you need to have to run a business i don't think because it can't sense sincerity or honesty or commitment it can't sense that you can only sense that by talking to someone so it's great for information but so far maybe it'll get even more intelligent i don't know what about the sort of the disruption to businesses that might have been on a certain trajectory that oh yeah that's serious yeah are you affected by that in any of the businesses you've had um well we don't do many software businesses uh and uh not not that much yet but i probably i probably will i probably will be but i haven't been in any of these businesses like uh some big american businesses have been absolutely smashed by the ai fear uh software businesses you know yeah yeah yeah and just humanizing you there's an element to anyone that you are am i here working with oh i know you're human and i've got to say if anyone's watching your style is so cool it's the first thing i thought when i saw you it was a great way to meet through um the entrepreneur community with shalini uh and it's the first thing i thought he's cool i think i'm a human i know you're a human okay go on then yeah it'd be really disappointing if you're not actually i'm not i'm not human my drama should be off creation of ai don't tell me that the great thing is you've got a track record that goes back way beyond when AI was mainstream.

19:04You can't get away with that one. It's true, yeah. You have to be careful of someone sitting there that sort of popped up fresh. You've thrown me now. No, I remember where I was. So there's an element to the relentless side of business, which can be quite addictive, right? There's a part to you that probably loves finding the next opportunity and immersing yourself in that. Same attributes for the founder, the entrepreneur that's scaling and building a business. How have you maintained both your physical and your mental fitness when you've got the schedule with the traveling and all the different things that go with the business well i try and eat healthy uh i ride a bicycle a lot i saw you right here on the bike yeah i did i was just i just cycled from uh from uh holborn yeah where i was chairing a meeting this morning so but i love it you know it's i think you need to keep your body in good shape it's a deliberate conscious because you didn't know you could have been chauffeur driven here you should be doing that as a choice to be out yeah yeah yeah and i I row, I row.

19:59I've been rowing since college and university. I used to row for the University of London. That's so good for you, isn't it? Yeah, and rowing uses all your body, your thighs, your calves, everything. So it's quite good for keeping good nick if you eat well as well. And stay away from dangerous people. And where do you sit with the mental fitness? Because mental health's talked about a lot more now, and rightly so. Yes. particularly as men men would sort of have barriers up and guards up and not show weakness and we're all we're all messed up well it's it that man up mentality yeah has not worked for a lot of a lot of people i feel like there's a a humility to you where you're in that mentoring capacity it's like tell me anything share which feels like to me like you're probably ahead of you ahead of the curve in that respect you know way ahead way ahead no i just i just i just i just believe in people and I believe that that you know if you give you'll receive you know treat people like you want to be treated that's the key it's a very very hard thing to do but treat people like you want to be treated that's like the essence of the old testament and the new testament all in one play treat people like you want to be treated that's that's always the question I ask myself in a difficult situation what would I do well how would I like to be treated in that situation as a CEO of a company that's being bid for or whatever.

21:27That's really, really important. Treat people like you want to be treated. That's the answer. The perfect lunch combo. That first bite of your favorite sub, followed by ice-cold Pepsi. Add a couple of friends, and now that's next level. Suddenly, the laughs get louder, the stories keep flowing, and the food tastes better. because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more fun, and more of the moment. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi Zero Sugar today. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects.

22:09And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. It's brilliant, which is basically empathy. And I was brought up around, yeah, so how would I feel? So before I do that, before I say that, how would I feel if that was me? And then that might change how I go about it. But I wasn't always like that. No, no, I haven't always felt that. It was a conversion. I did gradually in my 30s and 40s through various religious things.

22:51And so I studied Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, and all the rest of it. And then I came to the conclusion that was the way forward. But before that, I wasn't really, when I was in investment, pure investment banking, which is a very dog-eat-dog business, you know. Come to the morning meeting, you miss a mandate, everyone gives you a bollocking, you know. It's a very hard industry. I was in one of the leading investment banks. And if you lost a piece of business, God help you. And so you become kind of desperate to succeed in that little area. But it's not good for your soul. So that feels like a real kind of management of your ego.

23:30Humbling time. Everybody's got massive egos in that industry, yeah. And they kind of need it. I pray to you for doing the work. Because that's the bit I was trying to compliment earlier about the humility element. but you've had considerable success. And if I can go there with that. Much more, much more when I became humbler. Funnily enough, when I was pushy and arrogant and grabbing, and, you know, it was much harder. It didn't work as well. But when I let go, when I let go, and trusted my instincts and followed things like treat people like you want to be treated and listen, that changed a lot of stuff.

24:07My uncle was a great psychotherapist, and so I went to learn from him, and he taught he was he wrote books about this subject and I learned a lot from him yeah it's great to share yeah there's a probably a very different answer the younger version of Tom would answer to the question I'll ask you now which is what is your definition of success my definition definition of success well today I mean I've seen a lot of very very wealthy people be extremely miserable. I think one of the things is family and kids, you know. I've got quite a few children and they're all amazing and I speak to all of them not every day, every few days.

24:49I see a lot of them all the time. I'm going to my son's birthday this weekend in Italy. So I think that's one definition of success, the kind of people you leave around you, behind you. Because I've seen some very very wealthy people die very miserable very very miserable and very very wealthy and very very miserable so that's not the way to go i mean we live in this attention um economy now everyone's fighting for it and of course there's maybe addictive algorithms that are consuming particularly young lads yes lack of identity which has become the manosphere yeah you know and i've been questioning myself how how how can it happen how does this happen and it's this this funneling of kind of messages about making money and making money makes you successful and gives you everything you want.

25:38And I feel like there's almost like you're the anti-feasus of this. I think a reasonable amount of money is fine, but there comes a point where it doesn't really make much difference. And then, you know, Lord whatever his name is, I've got a few friends, you know, do you know how much they left when they died? Everything. They left everything they took nothing with them they left everything so what what do you leave yeah you know great kids great relationships people thinking of you in the right way like the romans used to say as long as you can remember somebody they live on and maybe that's that's a that's a good discipline to think about that that's your legacy right i love that's a better legacy than dosh or a huge you know house or a ballroom or whatever yeah no i get it that's that's all that's all in the end that's a waste of time i mean i we mentioned holly tucker earlier i actually chose to listen to a podcast that you did with her oh did you oh my god what did i say no you know it was actually it wasn't just what you said it's what she said yeah which was that she was indebted to you and that you backed her you believed in her i did and i think that you i knew in that moment you appreciated her saying that but that's also that's that's you're out of the room if you like that lives on yeah and you have other stories yeah other people have other stories about you where you've helped them and actually you've achieved together yeah i mean it wasn't pure altruism i mean i was in i was in the business of finding talented people backing them and helping them build their business sure but but but they were they were brilliant but this is the weeding out find people who will listen find people who treat you like they like you want to be treated I'm honest with you, all these basic rules are the key because all the rest can be replaced.

27:23Talented at painting or talented at making movies, all that can be replaced, but these qualities can't be replaced. No. Just linking the people to the businesses, so lastminute.com, Holly's business. I was lucky I backed Brent and Martha. I was the first person to back them. I know, it's amazing. After 10 minutes. It were 25, 26. They walked in. thought wow this is an amazing idea i love this name i said yes i'll do it yeah straight away and off we went and i was on the board for years and when they floated and all the rest of it i've done other things with with them as well yeah so what do you think now and i'm imagining someone watching or listening to this that wants to set up a business and and is looking at the opportunities that are always out there to do so is there a particular sector is there a particular part of the business entrepreneurship world where you're thinking people should be spending their time on because you've got that perspective i i don't really i don't really think so i don't think there's a particular industry or area because there'll always be smart people in all these things but um you know i find i find talent in all sorts of strange areas uh and um so long as there's a big enough market and the people are talented enough it'll work so i don't i'm not restricted to AI or space or biotech or any of that.

28:45I've done all of that. I've done space, but I've done loads of other industries. The common factor is always the people. And obviously it's a reasonably big market. It's not sailing boats in Suffolk. It's something reasonably big. So if it works, it can take off. And of course that's what the internet has allowed us to do. So I've been fortunate to grow up in the age of the internet, but I've got a lot of entrepreneurial or people in my family going way back. Yeah, because that scalability is really important in business. You mentioned that kind of like sailing boat tucked away. You can open up a cafe that's just really going to work there.

29:20The scalability is a real key part. And opening a cafe or selling sailing boats in Suffolk might make you a happier person, actually. It doesn't mean you'll be unhappy. It might be a better way to go. It's the McDonald's story, isn't it? I don't know how true it is in terms of the film up version of it, but they would really, those two founders originally were so happy doing what they were doing, operating in that way. And then Kroc scaled it. Found them. One wanted world domination and the others were just happy making really good quality. Yeah, well Kroc, he was terrible. You remember the great, well he was amazing.

29:56One of the things he said, if your competitors in the lake drowning, what would you do? He said, turn the hose pipe on and put it in his mouth. No. That's what he said. I didn't know that. Something like that. I don't know if those exact words. Yeah, sure. Well, he wasn't going to help them. No, no, ruthless, ruthless. Have you seen that yourself? Because you've clearly been successful in business, and that shocks you. You've shared that because you wouldn't do that. Back to the empathy. But have you been close to that behavior where it's just been... Have I seen it happen? Yeah. A little bit, yeah, a little bit.

30:30There have been one or two companies where some private equity and venture capital came in, and behaved appallingly, appallingly, you know, to these guys who built up a great business for them. Were you part of that business or were you just watching? No, no, I was on the board. I was on the board of chairman, yeah. I was on the board at least and an investor for many years. Then we brought in some venture capitalists and private equity people later, and some of them behaved appallingly, yeah. They're trying to really squeeze the last cent out of this company who's been created by these talented people to the detriment of the founders, yeah.

31:04i won't say i won't say who no i i respect that but it's so frustrating to hear that because the the journey of a founder the the relentless you know um seven days a week from from the minute you wake up to going to bed is often not talked about up in the loneliness and the fact that they're loneliness in decision making often let alone then the lean period of not making any money the exit often can be where they're going to make some money well but i've seen cases where the other VCs, I would never do this because I would always treat people like I want to be treated. They try and squeeze the last penny out of the situation to the detriment of the founders and the other investors.

31:43Horrible just so they get their bonuses and they get their uplifts. Because if you're a VC or private equity, you're always driven, generally they're driven by making a big exit and earning more themselves. But that can be to the detriment of the rest of the the team including the founders and i think that's terrible no i agree i would never i would never i would never agree with that but it doesn't mean it hasn't happened even in even in some of my companies when i'd sold out or uh you know when i wasn't i didn't have enough shares some of them behaved appallingly um i won't name any names today but you can ask me privately later i might that you don't know who to avoid okay one of the um uh kind of things that's talked about a lot in being successful in business is having that kind of early morning routine getting up at the crack of dawn running running a marathon reading a book meditating oh that's a great reaction so i'm interested to know where what that's been like for you and what a typical day looks like the perfect lunch combo that first bite of your favorite sub followed by ice cold pepsi Add a couple of friends, and now that's next level.

32:55Suddenly, the laughs get louder, the stories keep flowing, and the food tastes better. Because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more fun, and more of the moment. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi Zero Sugar today. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.

33:39Oh, yes. I get up, then I row. I have a rowing machine because I'm very used to rowing. So rowing is not good for everybody because they don't know how to hold their body in the right way. you need an amateur rowing can actually damage themselves so I used to row yes to row in an eight so you scum me too yeah so but I haven't kept it up so but I do have a you know you like you know which muscles you should use how you use your back just remind me again now see back upright you know use your stomach and then you put it into your tummy into your tummy where some people put it into the chest no that's completely oh that's not just as well I'm going I remember I'm just reminding myself when in and then suck your core in and core engaged the whole time.

34:20That's so good for you, isn't it? I think so, because it exercises everything from your calves all the way to your biceps, your arms. It's very good. So that's what I do first thing in the morning. When you say first thing in the morning, what time is that? I'm six. Okay. Six thirty, something like that. And then I have breakfast and then I relax. And then I bicycle a lot. So I love cycling. So I cycle. Another really good all-body exercise. Yeah. You look brilliant. You look super fit. And then for 95. that would be exceptional but but i bet when i see you at 95 you'll still be looking looking amazing yeah it's quite refreshing here you get my point there's books um podcasts all sorts about the whole you've got to get up crazy early you've got to do so much to be successful and you know you're uh you're not necessarily condoning well you've got to be awake you know but i think i think it's good to exercise but i always feel better when i exercise and then i eat healthy you know don't eat rubbish um there's loads of and i don't need much red meat and stuff like that you know yeah i've so enjoyed talking to me there's so much to learn from you tom thank you cheers thank you this episode is brought to you by chat gpt hey it's bill simmons from the bill simmons podcast have you guys heard about chat gpt work it's the new way to use chat gpt for bigger multi-step projects.

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