Inside Ukraine's Drone War: Maj. "Phoenix" of Lasar's Group

0:00I create our first drone, I create first ISR plane. So, this Killzone create war of drones, not war of humans. Drones try to hit other drones. That's better than humans. Yes, yes, it helps us to save a human life. If I see enemy soldier, I understand that it's my enemy. It's not a human, it's enemy. And they are in our land. It's the future for ground warfare. I think it's the future of big drones and many big planes. And drone is the future. Why don't you introduce yourself to listeners, some of your background, what you were doing before the war, how you got involved in that? My name is Yuri.

0:43My co-sign is Phoenix. I'm a major of National Guard of Ukraine of Lazarus Group Unit. And what were you doing before the war? I have my own IT business. Oh, okay, great. From 1991, I started to work with computers and network technologies. And before war, I have my own IT company. I provide services for my customers. It was cloud service, virtualization, cyber security, computer networks, and so on. Were you involved at all in AI before the war? Not AI, just modern network and computer technologies. So all that related to computer networks, VPN tunnels, and maybe some electronic devices, it's my direction.

1:46I'm familiar with all of this. I know how it works, how I can use it, how I can combine different devices to some big projects, how to get the result, what I want. Then how did you join Lazarus Group? From the first days of full-scale invasion, I understand that I need to protect my country, to protect my city, to protect civilians from all of this. And I spent two days to move my family far away in a safe place, and after that, return to Kiev. From maybe the first day, I joined to a local defense and started...

2:44start my night shifts on nearest uh fortification first one to to get in kiev right when they were coming in from belarus yes yes did you know him before no no uh i had experience uh operating drones. In 2010, I built my first drone to inspect buildings. At that time, I have one of big customers and I support them by video surveillance system, security system and computer networks. networks and I need to inspect all these buildings from air. So I build my first drone with GoPro camera to fly over this building and control cable systems and roof and all technical devices that are located on these buildings.

3:55I see. So when war started, I understand that we need to use modern technologies, maybe drones to fly and destroy our enemy remotely. Lazarus Group was the first to use drones. Is that right? As a weapon. I mean, before that, there was reconnaissance drones. Yes. Yes, yes. But can you talk about when the decision was to arm the drones? And was that Lazarus group that did that first? Or were there other units in the field that were experimenting? We get a first, I think, our drone was the first real weapon that can destroy enemy vehicles. And we show this result for everyone. And after that, I think our units start using drones as a weapon.

4:54And our military understand that drone is a real weapon. Yeah, because the first time people saw this was when the Russians were on the road from Belarus, I think. And there was a long convoy that was stopped. and then you started sending drones to destroy the tanks. Was that Lazarus Group? No. At that time, we had no drones at all, and only ISR drones, small drones like a Maverick, dji we we are the units who who have such drones use this type of drones for reconnaissance only only at the time we have no devices that can damage tanks or other vehicles yeah i thought i i remember seeing uh tanks being hit on that in that convoy but Yes.

6:02Was that from drones or was that something else? No, our special forces do that. I see, okay. When was, where was the first use of drones as a weapon? Maybe it was May 22, our first missions, successful missions, where we can hit some targets. And what sector was that? It was the Aparagia direction. And what was the first technology? I remember reading that Lazar developed a drop system. Our main idea, the main idea of our commander was to operate remotely and destroy enemy vehicle. like a tank or armored vehicle or anti-aercraft system, all types of enemy vehicles that can damage our military position.

7:06So we started developing this project, how to do it remotely. And the main idea is to use satellite connection. So we get our first Stirling and try to do some devices and try to create some software that can use this Stirling with big drones, big quadcopters. Okay, but the progression was you started modifying DJI drones? No. No. They were from the beginning, a home Ukrainian build. We create a technology how we can interconnect Starlink with, generally speaking, a flight controller inside big agricultural drone. After that, we wanted to manufacture big frames, big drones, agriculture, and ask to install our special devices with Sterling on this drone to get ability to operate manually.

8:29And they spent maybe more than four months to create a first prototype of this drone. After that, they start using this drone on the battlefield and try to do our first flights to destroy our first targets. So I thought, so you were using Starlink beginning in 2022? Yes. A lot of the FPV drones, Kamikaze drones, are using radio link to the controller. Weren't you also using this radio link in some of the drones? Or is Lazar specifically focused on satellite links? We focused on satellite links because we understand that we have a lot of opportunities when we use satellite links. There is no limitation by landscape.

9:37We can fly far away in low altitude as far as we can. Only one limitation is battery capacity. And we understand that a drone that was very popular at that time can bring only one munition with small munition. It's not enough to damage a vehicle such as that. So we understand that we need to invent some device that can bring about five kilos of payload, not less than three units of this ammunition. And we understand that our primary targets is tanks, maybe artillery or other enemy vehicles that can create a big damage for us. Yeah. And we start work on direction that help us to increase range and some maybe software upgrades that help our pilots to fly easy and control our drone in any situation when we have jamming or without GNSS.

11:02So we start flying manually. Only what we need is a connection to our drone to get a picture from our camera. and control. So our first step is that it was only one pilot for one drone. And after that, our pilot crew consists of two persons. It's a pilot and navigator. Navigator always know where our drone is located because the navigator looks at the camera, compare with satellite maps or other information and using landmarks always know where we are and help pilot to correct direction of flying and help them to find this target that we need and help while pilots start aiming. So it controls wind direction, wind speed and helps to maybe calculate this position when we start to do our first job.

12:20Okay, maybe for my audience you can explain the different kinds of drones. There's FPV drones, which are the pilot is looking through the camera of the drone, right? Then there are interceptor drones to knock down other drones or aircraft. aircraft. And there are kamikaze drones, which have a warhead in them, have a munition in them, and fly into a target. That can be a kamikaze drone, right? I mean, that can be an FPV drone. Yes, FPV drone is a separate direction because it's very small and cheap. And I think the main goal of FPV drones is to destroy small target, not armored target and enemy personnel.

13:19It's the best for these tasks. And this drone can fly for short distance. It's about maybe from 10 to maybe 20 kilometers. So FPV drone help us to control first part of the front line, nearest area and protect from enemy personnel and not armored vehicle like cars like maybe fuel tanks and so so on and fortified position of our enemy next step it's heavy bombers that can fly far away and destroy enemy vehicle enemy any certified position, enemy personnel and everything that they can find on a longer distance. Kamikaze drone flies for longer distance, it's about 70 maybe up to 100 kilometers and can destroy any targets that you can find in that area.

14:33So I think the most important in all of this is ISR drones because they control this area. They can find targets and control of movement of this target before we can fly to that position to destroy this target. I'm sorry, an ISR means? ISR. It's mostly a plane with gimbal camera with zoom. And Icer drone, main idea, they try to find our targeted control area, analyze pictures, and try to pre-main tasks of this drone. So they fly and control a special area where we can use our drones to destroy targets. The main idea is that they need to find targets. But you started with the heavy bombers, is that what you're saying?

15:42When did you start developing the armed FPV drones? First step is developing of heavy bombers with Starlink. And after that, when we have maybe more than 10 bombers, and we start fly simultaneously on different directions, from different positions from our front line, we understand that we need more targets, we need more information about targets because we can do more. we can destroy more targets. Only limitation for that time is information about our enemy, enemy position and location of this target. So we start to develop direction of ISR drones. Our first ISR drone was a plane, a tall plane with camera, no with photo camera and we fly a long area of interest.

16:52And after that, get these pictures and try to find some enemy targets on these pictures. After that, we start develop this direction and create planes with video camera. So we start new, we create a new step because we have online connection to this camera and can control area of interest in real time. If we need to, if we understand that we have some target signature, we can zoom in this area and understand what is this tank or is this armored vehicle or any different type of target. So after that, we can create a ISR unit inside our... After that they started to develop a subunit of ISR drones and get more ISR planes.

18:05And that place start flying along all front lines. So, the next step was increasing the number of crews. And all these crews were placed on all front lines. So, every 10 kilometers now we have our ground crew with big bombers. and every 20 kilometers we have a crew of ISR planes, ISR drones. So these ISR drones cover area up to 70 kilometers from borderline. And our big bombers can fly up to 35 kilometers and they come back for a lot. And we have a special designed model that can fly one-way mission. And the distance of this flight is up to 65 kilometers. What people in the West are most familiar with are the FPVs.

19:22Did you then develop FPVs or was that somebody else that developed the FPVs? All devices that we use, we developed. So we create a technical specification for manufacturers, send them this information and create an engineering team. And together we work on development of these devices. So after using in real battle condition, we give feedback for engineers of our manufacturers and ask them to do some changes if we need. And after that, together we examine the results, they analyze maybe some technical information, telemetry logs and so on to understand how we can upgrade our drones, what we can do to fly on bigger distance or how we can help our pilots to be more effective, how to do the aiming process more simple.

20:38Now we have special design software that can help our pilots to hit targets when they move. When did you start using these smaller drones that are armed? As I mentioned before, our main goal is armored vehicle. But maybe one year ago, maybe maybe two years ago, we started using FPV because we understand that using big, expensive drones to hit enemy personnel, it's not good. It's not effective. So we started using FPV to destroy all that we can find in maybe the first 10 kilometers from the front line. In your arsenal today, is it mostly heavy bombers? Is it mostly FPV? Is it mostly ISR? Is it, I mean, are you, where do you stand in that?

21:49How do you divide up your resources? Now we use a different type of drones. This drone can cover a distance from maybe 10 kilometers up to 65 or 70 kilometers. So first of all, it's FPV. It's the first part of frontline. time maybe first now we're using fiber optics so we can fly up to maybe 30 kilometers so HPV cover first part of this area and mostly hit enemy personnel right after that other part of this area covered by heavy bombers up to 65 kilometers all this area controls by ISR planes. It helps us to search target, confirm destroying of this target and control all this area. So we have interceptors that control area near our takeoff point to protect our crews from from enemy ISR drones or enemy kamikaze drone or other enemy drones that can create some damage.

23:11And also we use kamikaze drones to strike different targets on distance near 70 kilometers. I mean, I know the Shahid drones that Russia has been using do not have very precise onboard targeting. And so they're given a target area and then they hit the area, but there's no, this is what I understand, no feedback to the controller. Is that right? I mean, how did the Shahids work? And is in the interceptors on the front lines, where you have these units based, are they, what kind of interceptors are they? Are they FPV? Are they autonomous targeting? Or how does that work? Interceptors for Shechet is different type of drones because they need to fly at very high speed.

24:31Yeah. So, interception of Shechet is different. It's not related to tasks on the front line. So we have special design drones to intercept your heads. And we have experience how to do this. Now we increase the number of crews who work in this direction. Incoming drones targeting Kyiv, for example, that you're still using, or you, the military, the Ukrainian military, is still using human-controlled machine guns, to try and knock down those drones. That seems like a very difficult problem. No, we use all available devices and all opportunities how to intercept your head. Yeah. Do you know anything about...

25:27Drones and machine guns and ground crews, everything that we can do. Yeah. Do you... Are you familiar with Eric Schmidt's Swift beat? Yes, I know about this project, but it's a different topic. Yeah. Meaning it's too sensitive to talk about or it's... No, we talk about lasers. I know many interesting information about other units, other technologies, other devices, but I don't want to discuss this now. And I was asking, so you have the heavy bombers interspersed with ISR, you have interceptor drones around your units and then you have FPV. Are the FPV together with the heavy bombers or are they spaced along?

26:21It separates units, so it's a separate direction. We have a different direction and we use different type of drones for these tasks. Yeah. And all of these drones to date are controlled through a screen. There's no autonomous targeting yet. Is there in the Lazar Group arsenal? Or do you have autonomous targeting or even autonomous navigation? And now we use manual control, remote control mostly. Big bombers controlled remotely. It helps our pilot be more efficient. They allocate it and in quiet situation, they can concentrate on aiming, on flying. They don't need to think about their safety. Right.

27:27It's more resultative. And other benefits that one pilot can control drones in different directions if we need. So I think it's best that we can do. Yeah, but I've talked to a lot of people who are developing AI navigation and AI targeting. I mean, the future is you send off 100 drones, they know where they're going, they have an onboard navigation, they have a camera with object recognition, and they recognize the target, this is all autonomously and destroy the target. You're not there yet. Is that right? Now we try to use manual control because in any condition we know that we get result. Because all AI devices that help us to create this autonomous flight group of our drones.

28:48now it's not enough. The quality of these devices in the middle. So sometimes Sometimes we can do what we want. And in chemicals drones, usually used AI feature that can lock target and help pilot to hit this target. And because it lasts miles, it's very hard to control. We lose our radio control with our drone because of limitation of landscape. And this AI system helps us to fly directly to target and hit this target. And that AI module, is that being produced in Ukraine or are you importing that? As I know, many manufacturers of these devices create this device by themselves. They create a software and the software work on small computers like Raspberry API or other small devices with camera and this device analyze pictures from camera and try to find target signature.

30:27And after that, send control command directly to flight controller to operate this drone. Yeah, because what I'm interested in is how artificial intelligence is entering the battlefield. But from everyone I talk to, it sounds like it's being tested, it's being developed, but it's not really being deployed. Am I wrong? This technology is deployed now and many manufacturers work on it and try to create new devices. So I think this technology is one of the most important technologies. So I think radio links, AI systems and maybe battery technologies, it's the future of drones because battery capacity is limitation for distance.

31:30Yes, AI help us for aiming without interaction with pilot when we have no stable connection to drone. And the radio link, radio control system, help us to operate these drones when we need to fly to a special area where our target is located. The fiber optic, you know, this unspooling thread that can go 30 kilometers or even 40 kilometers. Who developed that? When did that start? This technology comes from telecommunication. It's just a fiber that usually covered other protected shell, part of the cable, the core of cable and next...

32:28The covering, yeah. But when an FPV, it's just the fiber optic, it has no cover. Is that right? I try to say it again. So fiber optics in FPV drones comes from telecommunication. So it's usual technology inside cables that bring internet to our homes. manufacturers of fiber optics just create these big spools of these fibers without shells. Right. So it's usual. Right. But who had the idea to hook it up to a drone? I don't know who started this, but this technology helped us to avoid jamming. Jamming, yeah. Are the Russians also using fiber optics? Yes. And they're also using Starlink? And they start using Starlink, yes.

33:29Yeah. So it's kind of a race between Russian technologists and Ukrainian technologists. I think it's competition in technology. So if we start using some technology after some time, when our drones were heated in enemy area, they get this drone, expect all inside and try to understand how it works. And after that start using this type of technologies in their drones. Yeah, yeah. So many people think that if someone talks about this public on some interview or after this information appears in public access in YouTube, our enemy, after a few days, start using it. It's not true because they usually try to get our devices and understand how it works, how we can do this, analyze this, and only after that, after months, maybe, they only try to use it and if this usage

34:48have results they try to scale it yeah just the changing nature of warfare you know it in the in the middle ages it was swords and then bows and arrows uh you know which had a certain range and And then eventually they developed guns, rifles, and then they developed machine guns. And the range keeps getting longer. I mean, what's the range of general issue assault rifle in the army? I don't know what guns you're using, but what's the range for a weapon that a soldier is carrying today. I don't know because our unit operates only drones. Only drones, yeah. I think the drones, it's the highest level of evolution of all weapons.

35:47That's right. For now. And so the drones, what's that? 400 meters for Goloshnikov. Okay. And now you're up to, for FPV, 10 kilometers. and for fiber optic 30 kilometers for the heavy bomber drones what 60 to 100 kilometers is that right I mean it keeps on getting broader so in that zone this is people have been talking about that's the kill zone yes so so the the personnel are outside on either side of the kill zone because to go into that zone is deadly. Yes. Do you think that's a good thing? Because at least it creates a separation of the two armies? You mean the kill zone is good or not so good, yes?

36:54And it's getting wider. So first of all, the distance between position that creates this range of kill zone depends on current technology. So this kill zone is extended by new drone technology. So I think the distance of kill zone is the maximum distance of drone flights. So for now, FPV drone can fly up to 30 kilometers from fiber optics. so it's a distance between position of drone operators. I think this kill zone help us to place our personnel far away from our enemy without direction, without direct contact. Right. So we have this kill zone create war of drones, not war of humans. So drones try to hit other drones.

38:02But that's better than humans. Yes, yes. It helps us to save human lives. Yeah. I mean, when we were starting, I said I wanted to talk because with the FPV drones, are most of the pilots looking on a screen or are some wearing headsets? Some pilots are using

38:28glasses. And many pilots are using ground station with screens. Yeah. And, you know, all of us in the West have watched, and I mean the West, meaning in North America, have watched videos of FVV drones. it's you're not in direct contact but it's a very intimate weapon because you you identify a soldier you follow him as he tries to hide and then you kill him That must be very difficult for the operators. And I know you said that's a sensitive topic, but can you talk at all about how that, how, I mean, have you been a drone operator as well? I think you were like the number two or three person at Lazars, right?

39:34Weren't you very early? I'm from first day in the first day. And two years I act as a bomber pilot and I create our first drone and create first airplane. That's okay. I mean, you've operated FPV drones. Is it, I mean, obviously it's easier psychologically to operate a heavy bomber. It's just different. It's not easier. I think it's the same. Many of our pilots can operate any drones. I don't mean difficult. I mean difficult psychologically. No, no. It's not difficult. But when you see a Russian soldier saying, no, no, no, and then you... First of all, we are military. We protect our country. We protect our civilian.

40:33We protect our land.

40:39I think all our enemies are military targets. It's our enemy, first of all. And I think about if I see enemy soldier, I understand that it's my enemy. It's not a human, it's enemy. And they are in our land. Yeah, of course. It's okay for us to destroy everyone who tried to kill our people, who try to kill civilians, who try to get our land, and first of all, we protect our country. That's our main goal. That's right. And I understand that, and I understand the ethics of that. I'm not talking about ethics. I'm talking about the psychological impact. If they stay outside our borders, they will be left.

41:38if they cross these borders and they are in our land yeah they are enemy yeah enemies for us and they are targets for us yeah that's all yeah so so your pilots it doesn't change them many of our pilots think this way. And this my position, I think, it's my explanation of the situation. And I know many of our pilots think enlightening. Right. I read that Lazar's group has destroyed destroyed millions of dollars worth of Russian hardware. I'm also interested in this system, I don't know when it started, of points that you get so many, a drone operator gets so many points for destroying a tank, so many points for destroying infrastructure, so many points for killing a soldier, so many points for wounding a soldier.

42:57What is, do you know that hierarchy of points? You asked me about E-point system, yes? Yeah. It's a very nice system. It helps us. It helps military units to get extra channel of supplying drones. So they destroy targets, they do some flights, and after that, they can get another parts, another drones to do other operations, other flights. I see. So the higher your point score, then resources are directed to you. If you have a lower point score, you may lose.