F1’s greatest teammate rivalries – with Palmer + Hinchcliffe

22:36James Hinchcliffe:No, I think some want it more than others. I think they all want it. I think that's what gets you up in the morning, right? In F1 especially, it's so hard to win, right? You have to be on one of two, maybe three teams. So if you're on one of the other, you know, seven or eight teams, it's hard to motivate in the morning if your sole motivation is winning, right? Because you know, you've got no chance to win your you have to kind of recalibrate your brain to think, well, my win today is an eighth. And then, you know, that hopefully gives me the opportunity to move up the grid and eventually be in a car that can fight for a win.

23:14James Hinchcliffe:But so every driver wants to win first and foremost. But yeah, there are some that are willing to do things and push the limits and the boundaries, I think more than others. It's not a it's not a difference in desire i think it's a it's a difference in what you're willing to essentially sacrifice to get there is it a bit of morals as well a bit of like your your racing ethics yes i i really do and i think that the rossberg hamilton example is a is a great one and you know you obviously go back to prost and senna and i think that comes up a couple times We've seen Michael Schumacher make some very questionable decisions on the racetrack when a championship was on the line.

23:58James Hinchcliffe:Not every driver would do that. Not saying it's right or wrong, good or bad, but I do think there's a discrepancy between how far certain drivers are willing to go.

24:08Jolyon Palmer:I think that Hamilton-Rosberg year showed us as well a great example of that. You had Rosberg chipping away any possible time he could, he was getting under Lewis's skin. and bearing in mind he was kind of the inferior driver in terms of talent the fact that he brewed up this rivalry probably helped him in trying to make something get under Lewis's skin and make it more more difficult for him anytime you can get your opponent's concentration or get him out of out of his sort of steady state that's going to be a good thing and on the other side you had Lewis on the final lap or the final laps going against Paddy Lowe on the pit wall slowing down the whole field and these were lengths that I don't think a lot of other drivers would do I think a little bit like we saw Max last year not do that Max 2021 would Max 2025 wouldn't and is a pretty clear examples I think of the mentality and obviously if you would again it's impossible to manage I think there's a relentlessness to Nico Rosberg isn't there I mean I love Nico I've known him for years I used to write his press releases for him when he was in Formula 3 that kind of thing but when I ran the marathon a couple of weeks ago the only text I got from him was can't believe you let Vettel beat you that was it that was it I just thought he's got high hopes for you TC that's the good thing but I thought that was I mean he was joking obviously but I thought that was actually a great insight into the mentality of Nico Rosberg he just can you imagine being his teammate where it's just relentless the whole time he won't let anything go he won't give up he won't you know he won't just turn the page it's all about winning and

25:49James Hinchcliffe:that's where you have to give nico so much credit because you know he was up against lewis hamilton 99.9 percent of formula one drivers can't beat lewis hamilton in a straight-up fight at that time in his career and he managed to do it by utilizing all of these tools everything in the toolbox even some tools that other people wouldn't have been willing to do he saw that was his opportunity. It took absolutely everything out of him to the point where he was like, I'm done. I can't go through that again. It's almost like he didn't, he didn't even enjoy it. He didn't enjoy it. Right. He was so focused on winning that he had no opportunity to enjoy it.

26:25James Hinchcliffe:And it was miserable to be in that scenario, to have to sacrifice everything, to have to have every waking minute of not only how can I beat him? How can I slow him down? How can I make his life worse? Because it wasn't just his focus wasn't just solely on him because because i agree with you joey he was not as quick you know he wasn't as total it was complete a racing driver so to beat lewis you had to do more you had to go above and beyond so his his effort wasn't even just on making himself better it was every minute he could but there was also an element of how can i rattle lewis and slow

26:58Jolyon Palmer:him down he's just a tenacious person isn't he yeah imagine for for our newer listeners who weren't watching in 2016 but have watched recent years nico rosberg the pundit imagine being on the other side of the garage of that guy who holds everyone to account you can't get away with a soft answer you know is is difficult and you know ultimately that can really be a skill and it was for him to win a championship very good point right that's hamilton rosberg um hinge what have

27:30James Hinchcliffe:you got for us give us another rivalry the one that i just remember the clearest because you know i was i was old enough and and in the sport enough to really get it and just blown away by the level that it deteriorated to was hamilton alonso that one for me you know it's just such a good story you've got the two-time champ who's moved over to mclaren you've got the rookie the the the prodigy coming up through the ranks. There was no world in which Alonso thought that this guy was going to hassle him for the title. And you want to talk about tenacious and willing to do anything to win, Fernando Alonso's face is going to be in the dictionary next to tenacious.

28:16James Hinchcliffe:And the level of skullduggery, you know, and tomfoolery that followed was unbelievable to the point where it was the most spectacular, you know divorce in driver team history at the end of the season uh and ultimately their rivalry and and their inability to play well together cost them the title uh cost mclaren you know a driver's championship so to me that one was was just an unbelievable display it's one of the

28:45Jolyon Palmer:all-time stories isn't it and also imagine on the receiving end of that you've got ron dennis at McLaren, one of the hardest taskmasters that Formula One team principals seen. And he can't control a Fernando Alonso new signing, a Lewis Hamilton rookie partnership. I bet Ron could not imagine how that was going to go when he signed Lewis at the start of the year. But again, it shows you've got Toto, you've got Ron, two old timers, especially Ron at that stage. And if the drivers want it badly enough you can sack him at the end of the year you can do what you like but you you can't stop things blowing up like this well this all started because alonso felt he'd been mugged off by ron dennis he thought he was coming in as the number one driver and as i mean from almost lap one of the first race it became apparent that that hamilton was was his equal from the get-go and so suddenly there was no number one status and it very quickly spiraled out of control and we were left in Hungary.

29:50Who can forget qualifying in Hungary when Alonso just sat in the pit lane so that his teammate couldn't get a final lap in? And then from there, you know, the Spygate,$100 million fine. I mean, it was one of the most spectacular seasons in F1 history.

30:07Jolyon Palmer:So I think you've got another textbook. Why does a rivalry blow up? Number one, a championship on the line. number two old older hand experienced driver has young upstar coming up against him so if you take a load of rivalries from there it's actually pretty rare that the young hot shoe doesn't do a great job against the experienced experienced hand so you've got Vettel v Weber similar story Vettel coming up gets under Weber's skin beats him difficult then you've got Ricciardo v Vettel you've got Leclerc v Vettel, Verstappen v Ricciardo. Loads of teammate rivalries are young Hotshoe, who everyone thinks is a supreme talent, finally gets a shot in the top team, and is wickedly quick.

30:54Jolyon Palmer:An established guy can't quite handle it. And then you have this clash. And I was actually thinking, can we even name many drivers where the established guy just sees off the young challenger, who we all think is that good? it's quite difficult to come up with names of the establishment that succeeded against the young hot shoe.

31:15James Hinchcliffe:Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, 96.

31:18Jolyon Palmer:Different case. Different case, I think.

31:21James Hinchcliffe:He wasn't an F2 driver coming up. He was already an IndyCar champion.

31:27Jolyon Palmer:And he's a rookie. It's a good shout, but it's... Hakanen Coulthard, McLaren. Senna Hakanen at McLaren. So we're going back a long way, though, aren't we? we're all straight into the 90s guys we're all into the 90s here's here's what i think is is a

31:44James Hinchcliffe:big part of that and i'd be curious to hear your thoughts on it the the rookie comes in with so much less expectation and expectation can be you know the the the seed of of disappointment right i think when you are the established driver that that expectation that weight that pressure is so much greater than a rookie coming in being like everyone thinks he's fast everyone's you know supporting of him being there, but he's going to take a couple of years to learn. And the experience of a list, all those other drivers out will ultimately, you know, reign supreme over the course of the season. When you can drive free from that kind of expectation, I think drivers perform better.

32:25James Hinchcliffe:And I think being, being the chaser is in that kind of scenario is, is easier than being the chase. We always talk about in a championship battle, you'd rather have the lead and, you know, not be the chaser necessarily. But I think when it comes to global expectation and the pressure that comes with that, there, yeah, there are just so many examples of young drivers that can come in that have been told, you're good, we believe in you, but no pressure to perform at, you know, a crazy high level this year. You can just kind of come in and do your thing as a driver. Whereas when you're the established guy and there's a young guy that's trying to dethrone you and take that mantle, immediately there's an extra element of pressure that you're dealing with that the other driver isn't.

33:09Jolyon Palmer:The Villeneuve example is actually pretty good because he came in as a rookie into a top team. So in recent years, I was thinking, right, let's say since even 2000, you've got Hamilton and Bottas. So Bottas replaces Rosberg, has a few years at Williams. People saw him as a bit of a hot shoe, gets the Mercedes shot, but Hamilton absolutely dispatches him obviously you've got the whole run of uh of red bull drivers since verstappen so gasly maybe people thought was going to be a bit of a challenge hajar now i think in between you got perez and sonoda maybe weren't quite as as well touted albon yeah yeah albon exactly another one had a quick rise um so verstappen saw them off but these are like hamilton and verstappen top top line drivers who were able to beat obviously drivers who are not yet proven the other one is Norris and Piastri so you've got Piastri f3 champ f2 champ gets to Formula 1 has the title shot and actually Norris dug in so deep but held him back last year which felt like a seminal moment in there obviously one of them's a champion now and in their teammate rivalry as well the fact that Norris stopped the charge of Piastri so moving it forward you've got Antonelli Russell Number one, they're fighting for a title.

34:26Jolyon Palmer:Number two, young Kimi Antonelli, second year up against George Russell. And hence, I feel like this is another time where it's a huge season, particularly for Russell, to see if he can be one of these outliers that holds off a prodigious young talent.

34:41James Hinchcliffe:But he's got that pressure, right? He's got everything that you described that creates these scenarios, these really fractured team scenarios, is what we're looking at. established guy with the pressure and expectation of being the champion young upstart with tons of potential but still kind of given some leeway in a car capable of fighting for a title it i mean how could be blockbuster yeah and how the young upstart if he doesn't win the title bounces back i look back to to hamilton in this 2007 scenario alongside alonso hamilton was leading that championship by 17 points with two races to go and he loses it equally Oscar Piastri last year he was what 34 points ahead just after the summer break and he loses it Hamilton then comes back and wins the title in 2008 where we see Piastri go from here I think will be fascinating how he bounces back I think he's resilient enough to do that he obviously just needs the right car But still, I'm watching Piastri with fascination to see how he copes with the disappointment of last year.

35:49Jolyon Palmer:They fell away for different reasons, didn't they? I mean, Hamilton was literally in the gravel in Shanghai and then his gearbox failed in Brazil. So you could pinpoint two unlucky reasons. I mean, you could argue the Shanghai one either way. Whereas Piastri lost it for a run of form, really. So there's a slight difference in that. but in in the similarity as these these youngsters just come out just swinging for the fences and a bit like Kimi right now every weekend is a bonus yeah I'll win another race well wow this is going really well same with Oscar last year you come out this is Lando's title Lando wins the first race and then hang on I'm all right hang on we're going on a big run now I'm championship leader what I'm suddenly fighting for something you've got nothing to lose in this situation and As you say, TC, Hamilton then went to go and be a seven-time world champion, but the next year a champion.

36:41Jolyon Palmer:Piastri's got a lot of time left in his career to actually convert a championship. And if Antonelli misses this year, he'll be a 19-year-old multiple race winner with a championship in him at some point. If Russell misses this year, it'll be way harder to stomach, particularly if Antonelli's the champion. That'll be tough because it will feel like all of the Mercedes momentum will stop with Russell and it will go towards Antonelli as the future guy. Well, JP, what have you got for us when it comes to rivalries? What is a standout one for you? Well, let's do Senna Prost, guys, because this one for me was, right, disclaimer, I was born in 1991.

37:21Jolyon Palmer:So when they were teammates, I was not alive. But it's such a well-famed story. and because I was looking into this in anticipation for this pod, I've just looked through their time as teammates. Two years, 1988, 1989. And TC, you probably know better than me this era, but I was looking through the stats and I can't believe that this was even a rivalry because you've got Etten Senna out-qualifying Alain Prost 14-2 in 1988 and he wins the championship. He does the same in 1989. He out-qualifies past 14-2. In his run coming through to McLaren, he's barely had a teammate. Johnny Dumfries and Satori Nakajima, do you know what their average qualifying deficit was to Senna?

38:16Jolyon Palmer:I've had a lot of fun doing this, right? Yeah. It's somewhere between three and four seconds per lap. What does that debrief look like? well Satoru how can you go quicker what do you need from the car we're just looking for like a second a corner please mate I mean so Senna Senna's arriving to McLaren

38:44you're saying he was an unknown quantity when he came to McLaren

38:48Jolyon Palmer:and he's never really had a team

38:55what do you need from the car

39:04it's the best stat you've ever discovered but you've ever worked out honestly i had a lot of fun doing that i had a lot of fun having a look jp it raises a really interesting point doesn't it so you've got senna arrives in 1988 he's never

39:19Jolyon Palmer:really had a proper teammate and then he's up against Prost.

39:27Jolyon Palmer:So Senna arrives to McLaren in 1988. He's never had a proper teammate.

39:37Mate, you're going to have to start this chat with a different line.

39:39Jolyon Palmer:Yeah, yeah. Oh, this is one for the outtakes reel. Okay. oh man

39:53what is happening

39:55Jolyon Palmer:it's not even that funny we just can't pick up now oh man so you've got Senna arriving to McLaren I just can't look at the screen I can't look at the screen

40:14oh god so you've got Senna arriving to McLaren in 1988 he's never had a proper teammate in

40:25Jolyon Palmer:Formula One he's up against a multiple world champion already and the matchup is just fascinating because basically he's just ruthlessly quick and he's a lot quicker than Prost wins the title in 1988 and then it all blows up doesn't it so in this case you've got young Hotshoe coming through looking really good and then it all happens in 1989 I look through and Senna seems to be really unlucky in this year as well he looks a bit stronger than Prost and it comes down to the wire in Japan and and we know the outcome of it but it's another indication of the professor, Alain Prost, trying to do everything he could to get under the skin of fundamentally a faster driver.

41:08Well, that's what I loved about Prost though, JP, was that he realized he couldn't, you know, he couldn't hold a candle to centre over one lap. So he never tried. It was all about Sundays for him. And as a result, he was able to keep the championship going till the end of the year and in 89 of course you know he gets that championship after the collision um at suzuka

41:31James Hinchcliffe:it's a great point jp because the the real sort of you know uh shenanigans kind of didn't start till son had that first championship and i wonder if i wonder if even pross knew what he was capable of and how far he was willing to push the boundaries the the ethical boundaries you know before that time is this something that drivers had kind of been doing their whole junior career as well and there were you know examples of it that maybe we just don't know about or do you think when you're in that pressure cooker situation championship on the line refusing to lose that's

42:07Jolyon Palmer:when it just sort of comes out you've got sort of mind games in this as well haven't you so it's in the interest of the guy that's that's fundamentally not as quick to do things differently to try and force the rivalry, try and close the field.

42:25James Hinchcliffe:And this is almost where Prost was kind of using the FIA relationship, right? Because that was a big part of the mind game part of it with them.

42:34Jolyon Palmer:Precisely. And obviously that went against Senna in 89. And you have that in the back of your mind if Senna did at the time. And I just think if you're in that position, you're Nico Rosberg, you're Alain Prost, you're a really thinking calculated driver you're a very fast driver but probably well you're definitely not as fast as these these absolute goats alongside you hamilton or senna so you start to pull everything back into your skill set and anytime you can say something in the media that might get under the skin of the other guy you use it you use that as an opportunity every time and fernando's another driver that's always had this in his locker in his career obviously in 2007 it was uh the start of the sort of political side that we saw of Fernando but you feel like every time he speaks to the media he knows what he wants to get out of it and I think with some of these rivalries as the tensions rise you you sometimes want to get underneath the other guy's skin you don't want to just have a straightforward media session you want to think if I can have a little poke here a jab there unsettle them somehow it starts to to level the skill set out and maybe he'll get to the grid and he'll be more worried about me in second than than this or that and sometimes we've even seen that with max and max and lando in in their championship battle in 24 and other non-teammate rivalries as well well and it was ethics where that was the reason that it actually fell to pieces between senna and prosted imola in 1989 prosted proposed that whoever was leading into turn one should stay in front for the opening lap of the race there was of course that big accident of Gerhard Burgers so there was a restart and Prost got to the first corner first Senna overtook him on lap one and that was the trigger point for all the animosity that followed now you could argue I think that Prost was just playing games with the team and playing games with Senna why would Senna agree want to agree to a stipulation that you don't overtake on lap one because maybe it was because Prost thought, well, he's faster than me, so I've got to think of every reason to keep him behind me.

44:46And then when it didn't happen, of course, it all exploded. And then what I find extraordinary about this relationship is that even when they weren't teammates in 1990, Prost, of course, went to Ferrari. It ended at turn one at Suzuka at the end of that year, which ultimately gifted Senna the world championship.

45:04Jolyon Palmer:but even when they weren't teammates it's still boiled over they've all got a trigger point haven't they all all of these rivalries we mentioned um uh i think monaco was one in uh in the alonso hamilton year as well uh where lewis was told to hold position and and there was a sort of tenseness about alonso they're thinking he had it under control anyway and um and and this in that you've got the 2016 and 2014 examples of the mercedes duo and that imola one as well you always have something where one of the guys is like hang on that's not that's not quite how i thought we were playing it so maybe that was prost thinking he was completely wronged by senna who passed him and they had this gentleman's code um maybe it was it was senna on the other hand thinking hang on why would i agree to follow you bearing in mind you're at the front and and And, you know, that doesn't make any sense.

45:59Jolyon Palmer:He's experienced hand playing his cards. So you've got all of these things. And when you have then a championship on the line as well, in all of these examples, the small tensions become massive tensions. I think an interesting point as well is that when you talk about team managers,

46:13James Hinchcliffe:team principals having to manage these situations, right? One of the most difficult things to manage, you know, is a driver in the heat of the moment. So the fewer stipulations you put, the fewer rules that are in place, I think the better. If that rule of whoever leads into turn one, you know, wins the race, if that doesn't exist, then Pross can't be mad when Senna passes him, at least not in the same way. So I think when you're dealing with these types of scenarios, almost the best way to manage it is to step back and kind of let them do their thing. Yes, there's the golden rule. You can't hit each other.

46:51James Hinchcliffe:There should be repercussions for that. Team first, all that stuff. But I think as soon as you try to over manipulate or over manufacture it, and this is where McLaren kind of flirted with that line, I think a few times last year. I think that's where it gets a little bit trickier, because if those if those rules don't exist to be broken, then no one can feel wronged by somebody else breaking the rule.

47:11Jolyon Palmer:Yeah, sometimes you can overcomplicate things, can't you? I'm interested, TC, do you remember when DC and Mika Hakkinen then were at McLaren title fighting? I watched over the winter your Memory Box series with DC, and he was going through, and he mentioned the 1998 first race where they had this agreement. You've still got Ron Dennis as the boss, who was there the decade before with Senna and Prost, and they've kind of come up with the same agreement again in Melbourne for the season opener. So suddenly you've got Coulthard in the lead of the race, and he has to wave Hakenham back through again for the win.

47:48Jolyon Palmer:And, you know, he said that that makes a massive psychological difference on you. And then Hakenham became a double world champion and Coulthard at that point becomes kind of the second driver, always punching against the opposition driver, your teammate and the team. So it's another case of sort of kind of difficult management. It worked out, I guess, for McLaren because they won the championships that year, but it's not great for the second driver. well and talking of management just back to senna prost um julian jacoby was managing alan prost and et and senna at the same time when it was all breaking down between them to have been a big money deal though isn't it yeah wow somebody was in this yeah yeah just can you imagine being a fly on the wall of some of the conversations you know i would imagine he's in chatting to senna and then five minutes later he's in with Prost, he said, she said, all this kind of stuff.

48:40It must have been incredibly difficult for him to manage quite literally.

48:45Jolyon Palmer:Well, how do you do that? Because you must always have one driver thinking that there's a preference for the other one. So, I mean, he must have some unbelievable negotiating skills to do that in such an intense rivalry because you're always going to think that a little bit like last year, McLaren ran the risk of Oscar thinking the team's behind Lando or vice versa. But, you know, where you see every little thing is swap the positions in Monza or, you know, the repercussions after Singapore or after Austin or all of these little things. And you think, hang on, that's not fair or that's not fair.

49:22Jolyon Palmer:But imagine if that's your manager, your personal manager, who's also looking after the other guy. You think, hang on, if my own manager's not in my corner, then really what are we doing here?

49:34James Hinchcliffe:Well, because the manager's role, right, is to argue with the team if there seems to be some sort of imbalance. That's really hard to do. It's the same guy, and you were in a situation where there was already, you know, the perception that Ron was favoring Senna, right? There's, of course, the whole protest against Prost's win in Suzuka because of what happened at the chicane and the marshals and all the rest of it. So you've got one driver already thinking that the team's against him, And then the manager whose job it is to try to smooth that over and make that better. Well, he's also he's also representing the other guy.

50:11James Hinchcliffe:That was a situation that was just destined to fail.

50:15Jolyon Palmer:I wonder if if Ron Dennis and Julian Jacoby have a good relationship because that either goes, oh, he's happy with everything or every race. Julian Jacoby is there with a problem. Hey, you wronged Senna. Next race. Hey, you wronged Prost. And he's like, what? How do I play this out?

50:29James Hinchcliffe:Yeah. The phone rings and Ron just sees it's Julie. Oh, not again. Which one is he upset about today? Yeah.

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51:31Finally, JP, I think it was you who mentioned Vettel Weber. Teammates from 2009 to 2013 at Red Bull. One of the great modern rivalries, wasn't it? Just it very quickly broke down. I think of Turkey 2010 when they crashed. I think of Silverstone 2010 the same year. Not bad for a number two driver. Malaysia 2013, Multi-21. The list goes on. why do you think that broke down to the extent it did uh well example was the the young hot shoe

52:06Jolyon Palmer:and the experienced guy but also there it's a little bit like uh we were talking about before where i think mark started to feel that he was up against seb and his own team in 2010 particularly so the the incident in turkey uh you had vettel coming across on weber they had contact fighting for the lead of the race and uh mark was very adamant that it was it was seb's fault and i think he was frustrated that the team didn't kind of completely agree and put that on on vettel and then you had a couple of races later you had vettel had a uh was it an incident in practice or just a faulty the new front wing that failed and they only had one other and they took it from Mark Webber's car and put it on Sebastian Vettel's car.

52:57Jolyon Palmer:Can you imagine that? I mean, that would be an outcry if it happened nowadays. But, you know, that's difficult for a teammate in title contention to have. And I think they said it was worth about half a tenth. Vettel put it on pole. Webber won the race. Not bad for a number two driver. But you would feel like a number two driver. You literally are a number two driver at that point when you're at Silverson. And it's neither driver's home race. And the new part gets taken off your car and put on the other guy's car. You're both in title contention. Neither of you have won a championship before. Brutal.

53:33Jolyon Palmer:So I'm not surprised at that one. That one flared up from at least that moment on.

53:37James Hinchcliffe:And again, the one that I always look at the multi-21, it's a rule that was broken, right? By setting a rule, you gave a driver a chance to break it. And then that leaves the other driver feeling wronged. So I think all those things kind of contribute. There was a lot of different things in that situation, because to your point about that wing, I mean, drivers already have a certain degree of paranoia, right, about whether the team's favoring the other side of the garage. When something like that happens, it's no longer paranoia. It's confirmed. And now you do feel like you're not just up against your teammate, you are up against the whole team.

54:14James Hinchcliffe:And then he's got, you know, freedom to break these rules that the team has made really without, you know, seemingly without repercussion. So that was probably a better example of a poorly managed situation that allowed the rivalry to become quite as contentious as it was.

54:30Jolyon Palmer:The great thing for us fans watching on is that Mark Webber says what he thinks and allows these things to be just brought up in the open, deal with it matter-of-factly, multi-21 Seb, in the cool-down room. There's no, like we'll talk about it afterwards, there's no, it was just hammer blow. That wasn't what we agreed for the world to see. But I think what we're saying here is no team orders, right, is the way to keep team harmony. I think in every example here, the instigating part comes from an instruction from the team that's not followed. So whether it's Bahrain, a bit of engine tweaking from Rosberg, the holding positions in Monaco that started the catalyst for Hamilton and Alonso, the Senna-Prost-Imola moment, all of these ones, it's a team order rather than a sort of natural fight where they figure it out.

55:21James Hinchcliffe:But this is where you have to give Piastri a lot of credit because in Monza, that could have been taken as one of those scenarios where it was confirmation that the team was in Lando's corner and not his. And he didn't let it spiral and he didn't let it get to him, at least not publicly, at least not in a super outward facing way. So I think Oscar does deserve a fair amount of credit for how 2025 developed, because ultimately, if they don't swap those positions back, they do lose the championship. So it was the right move for McLaren. And hopefully in hindsight, that also makes it a little bit easier for Oscar to take as well.

55:59James Hinchcliffe:But again, I think credit where credit's due there. He played a big part in keeping it harmonious.

56:05Jolyon Palmer:and the fascinating dynamic there is you've got mr no-nonsense mark webber in his corner so all of these years on playing it out from the sidelines mellowing perhaps but just back to the vettel webber i i very much felt at the time that it was mismanaged by the team whether it was turkey 2010 the crash where helmet marco came out after the race and said that was mark's fault whether it's the front wing at Silverstone, whether it, you know, and let's not forget that I think tension between Mark and Sebastian goes right back to 2007, Seb's first full season in Formula One, Fuji, they're behind the safety car, it's a wet race, and Seb crashes into the back of Mark taking both cars out of the race.

56:49And I think Mark very much felt that was a race he could have won. He hadn't won a Grand Prix at that time as well. So in a way, it was a recipe for disaster putting those two together kind of all along because whether it's the personal tension that started at Fuji whether it's you know I always felt the two-prong management of Helmut Marco and Christian Horner never quite worked because we never we from the outside looking in never knew who really was making the decisions whereas I think if you're on the inside if you speak to Mark he'll say it was Helmut making all the decisions because he was the Red Bull guy so it was a very complicated relationship but back to what we've all agreed is it seems that it's the teams that create most of these problems a lot of the time same kit don't crash go for it so is that going to be the secret for mercedes this year yeah well do you think on the secret of mercedes i'm fast do you think kimmy at only 19 years of age is almost is he almost too young too raw to play silly games you know even if he was three years older he might be more inclined to to get involved in a bit of skullduggery where he seems just so fresh that i just it would be for me it would feel very out of character if he if he did something untoward let's say towards george i

58:07James Hinchcliffe:don't know do you agree yeah we and we've spoken about this haven't we we kind of talked about how we're not even sure kimmy's got it in him uh from a personality standpoint kind of in the same way we didn't see it out of lando and oscar but but jp says he's seen flashes of of george in the past that would make it maybe uh more likely if if the gloves needed to come off he'd be the first to drop them and and if that does happen it'd be interesting to see how kimmy reacts because whether it's an age thing or just an inherent personality thing i kind of i tend to agree with you that it would it would seem kind of out of character he's young he's out of contract at

58:43Jolyon Palmer:the end of the year currently which is it seems amazing right now um and so yeah i don't i don't think he's gonna nuke the team by by going all acrimonious on on george for the for the gain of sort of seven points or ten points or whatever the swing might be at least at this stage maybe if they're close in september october we'll start to see if what you know what the real kimmy is like at that point and the other thing is I don't see Toto favoring Kimi in the same way that Helmut Marco was absolutely in in Sebastian Vettel's camp at Red Bull I think Toto will be completely fair because he's had this experience as well with with Rosberg Hamilton he knows now well he'll have a better idea in his head how he's going to manage it and right now I think having 19 year old as a championship leader at least in that sense will make it so much easier than the last time he did it well let's hope antoneli russell becomes one of our favorite teammate rivalries but guys what a wonderful chat um i love these off weeks when we discuss some slightly different stuff look have you got a favorite rivalry just to end this of all the stuff we've talked about have you got a favorite guys i think i'd i think i would go i think i would go hamilton rossberg i think the story of genuine friends turned bitter rivals.

1:00:05Jolyon Palmer:Rossberg gets his championship, retires because it's exhausted him to beat Lewis. And I was there on the grid with him that year as well. And seeing some of the tension in the drivers' briefings and all of it around, it was a great rivalry that brewed for a few years and gave us plenty of fireworks. Yeah, there's going to be a movie on that one, isn't there?

1:00:26James Hinchcliffe:How about you, Hinch? I think for me, it's got to be Senna, nakajima just was um just really what we needed hinge was nakajima dumb freaks to see really who had the extra 10th not honestly i think i think jp nailed it you know the the the rivalry on track was so good the backstory to it was even better the fact that you know total wolf admits maybe it was not handled poorly from or not handled well sorry it was handled poorly from the teen side or at least at very least there's things he would do different if in that scenario again And I think it really does kind of make it, you know, one for the ages.

1:01:03James Hinchcliffe:Prost and Senna were never friends. Hamilton and Alonso were never friends. Vettel and Weber were never friends. But growing up with someone and staying friends throughout the whole journey to F1 and then ultimately having it come all undone and, as he said, leading to Nico's retirement because he was just emotionally and mentally exhausted from it. I think it's an incredible story. Yeah, it really was. What about you, Tucci? Well, guys, it's hard to think beyond that, isn't it? The way you've described it, the way you've summed it up, really does it justice. I mean, I did love the Hamilton Alonso in 2007, having been there and witnessed it all.

1:01:44But in a way, I think my memories of that season are also slightly muddied by the Spygate scandal and the$100 million fine that McLaren were given and they were thrown out of the Constructors' Championship. it was the most epic season all told but i it wasn't all because of the teammate rivalry so i i will agree with you guys that it's hamilton and rosberg well guys thank you very much great to chat to you both uh enjoy the indie grand prix this weekend hinge thank you thank you appreciate it and and jp no racing for you this week no racing uh so i will tune into the

1:02:22Jolyon Palmer:Indy Grand Prix. That's what we like to hear. Thank you both very much for your time. And just before I go, a couple of parish notices. Don't forget to check out F1's other official podcasts. My guest on this week's F1 Beyond the Grid is 2009 world champion Jenson Button, 20 years on from his first F1 Grand Prix victory in Hungary 2006. It's fascinating to hear his memories of that special day. And that's out on Wednesday, and you can watch our chat on the F1 YouTube channel. And on the latest episode of F1 Explains, Laura Muller tells Christian Hugel how the role of a race engineer has changed in the new era of Formula One.

1:03:00That's just below this episode on the F1 Nation feed. Thank you very much for listening. We'll be back next Monday looking ahead to the Canadian Grand Prix. So speak to you then. F1 Nation is produced by Formula One and Audioboom Studio.

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