Max 'the magician' + McLaren's 'lessons' - Italian GP Review with Andrea Stella

0:00We have studied what has happened in the history of Formula One. It would have been, I think, naive not to take into account the lessons learned. I prefer the fight that Lewis and Nico were having. It's really hard to set the limits. Why was the pit stop slow? Where did you draw the line? Yeah, that's a question. Max Verstappen wins the Italian Grand Prix. Even the invincible Max Verstappen doesn't think he's in this championship fight anymore, does he? Well, a few races ago he said he didn't think he was going to win a race as well, right? Until the end of the season. So maybe he would change his mind.

0:41Welcome everyone to the Temple of Speed for F1 Nation's review of the Italian Grand Prix. I'm Tom Clarkson and joining me in the Monza paddock is Brazilian journalist Julian Sarasoli and French journalist for Lake Epe, Fred Ferry. Very warm welcome to you guys. Let's start by celebrating some greatness. Max Verstappen took his third win of the season and his first since Imola nine races ago, would you believe it? And after producing the fastest lap in Formula One history on Saturday, surpassing Sebastian Vettel's record of the most pole positions at Red Bull Racing, Max fought back after losing the lead to Lando Norris early on to win a Grand Prix for the 66th time in his career.

1:24His victory is even more impressive, considering that nobody has won from pole at the previous five Italian Grand Prix. It's not easy to overtake here, but guys, I've given it a summary. How impressive has Max been this weekend? I would say that Max is as impressive as usual when he got a good car. And the good thing is that Red Bull came back in the game. and I would like to emphasize the work of the Milton Keynes and the French technical director because they were going on the wrong path and in wrong direction and since Spa they decided to change all the setups thinking about the RB21 and reshuffle everything they brought a new floor here and then they have their magician which is Max Verstappen with a good car and a wonderful driver, you got the victory.

2:19Now, you're talking about Spa. That was also the first race for the new team principal, Laurent Mechiez. Is there a link? I don't think so. I think the good thing is that they discovered last year what went wrong on the car. Pierre Vachet told me earlier that last year they were nowhere because they chose the wrong setting with the rear ring. If you remember well, they didn't want to have the usual Monza thing and then they saw on the data that they were going already in the wrong direction. That helped them to finish the season and then they decided this year to go with the usual rear wing. Now, Ju, the McLaren was a little bit slower than the Red Bull over one lap and the gap was even bigger in the race.

3:08Were you surprised by Red Bull's dominance, actually, I think we could call it? Well, if Andrea Stella was surprised, who am I not to be surprised as well? So he said the gap in qualifying was one or two tenths, and then they think that it's a lot bigger, well, slightly bigger in the race, mostly because, as you said, it's hard to overtake here, and Max was able to overtake Landau, and he thinks that that shows that the pace was actually really good, maybe three tenths, maybe four tenths, and he was surprised with that. With McLaren, they don't have the superpowers that they usually have in other tracks here in Monza because tyre deck wasn't an issue they basically completed the whole lap with the same tyres so that was not an issue for anyone so the gap is not as big to McLaren and also because this track is somewhat so simple in terms of aero terms that if you have an aero efficient car it's not so much of an advantage as it is in the track.

4:11So you have, in one hand, everything that Fred was saying, that Red Bull, they found a way to race in Monza that they didn't before. They got better with the floor. You have Max, but you also have McLaren without the superpowers, so to speak. I think there was also a relentlessness to Max out there. I mean, the gap, the performance gap between McLaren and Red Bull was bigger in the race, but it's We're only talking a couple of tenths. And yet he banged in those couple of tenths, lap after lap, to then be 19 and a half seconds at the flag. Which is the biggest difference between another car and a McLaren since the beginning of the year.

4:54Usually the McLaren do that to the others, but this time it's impressive. I think if I were Laurent Macchies, I'd be pretty chuffed, right? Because, OK, he's had a second place at Spa, but this is his first win and i don't know if you noticed it but do you remember when max used to win races under christian horner christian used to say the same thing on the radio max you have one and then fill in the gap the brazilian grand prix the italian grand prix whereas i was struck after the race how laurent immediately came on the radio and gave an analysis of of max's performance and that was the engineer talking.

5:35I feel we've just had a little sneak peek into the change of emphasis at Red Bull now. The difference in having an engineer leading the troops rather than a figurehead, as was Christian. Maybe Max even likes that because he likes these analytical people surrounding him. It's just a different way of doing it. There's no better way of doing it in Formula One. We see people like Andrea Stella, who is an engineer, but sometimes it's so human as well, and he has both sides. But going back to the gap, we have to remember the gap is not only max, not only the pace, but it's also due to the strategy that McLaren was trying to play.

6:17So they left the cars way too long, waiting for a red flag, for a safety car, for anything. So the gap is not real. You cannot say oh out of a sudden Red Bull were amazing and they were 20 seconds faster it has to do with the game that McLaren was trying to play. Coming back to Laurent Maquiesse it was his first victory usually when you're a team principal you go on the podium for your first victory and he chose to send Pierre Vacher which is a big sign that he respects the work of his new team and he knows who deserves the victory for the work that has been done. You know Pierre very well, Fred.

7:00How much would he have appreciated that gesture? He doesn't like going on the podium because he's a very shy guy. But I can tell you that today he was very happy because he has been under heavy stress since the beginning of the year. So he's very happy about the work he has done. and some journalists and some commentators said that he was not the right guy. And I think it's a good thing for his team and himself to put them back on the screen. And they are important. Remember, they were building the car who won every race for part one in 2023. There was an interesting shift as well. something Max referred to on Saturday was the increased emphasis that he was having on the technical direction over a Grand Prix weekend whereas traditionally this season we've seen Red Bull go pretty left field with some of their Friday setups and then bring it back in time for Saturday and it's all that work has been done overnight in Milton Keynes back in the UK whereas Whereas the feeling here in Monza is that Max was leading the charge a little bit more, not relying on all the backroom stuff in MK.

8:17Would you agree with that, Ju? For me, it looked like since FP1, he was really at ease with the car. So whatever came from Mutant Kings, it was a better base than what we usually see. And then he took it from there. And when that happens, when I saw how Max was running in FP1, I was like, he's so comfortable. and he will only build from that because we know how he is like. This could be a very interesting weekend to watch him. And then I wasn't surprised by the pole position because of that, because of that progression that always exists, but starting from a better baseline. Look, eight races, three sprints to go.

8:59Max is now, what is he, 94 points behind Piastri. he doesn't think even the invincible Max Verstappen doesn't think he's in this championship fight anymore does he? Helmut Marko said that they don't believe in the team to that kind of miracle they can win races back because Helmut thinks that the car is back it's alive and Max will, we all know that when he has something strong in his hand he can win races but for the championship I don't believe in it too. Well, a few races ago, he said he didn't think he was going to win a race as well, right? Until the end of the season. So maybe he would change his mind.

9:49You do want to box the other car first? Yeah, we'll do that. We'll swap it around to stay out. Well, only if he doesn't have the car. Otherwise, I'll box first. There will be no undercut. What's going on with Lando Norris? The slow stop has cost Lando Norris track position. Through goes Oscar Piastri. Oscar, this is a bit like Hungary last year. We pitted in this order for team reasons. Please let Lando pass and you're free to race. We said that a slow pit stop was part of racing. I don't really get what's changed here. Team order issued. Team order listened to. Lando Norris restored to second place.

10:28what about then mclaren and the awkward moment i think we can call it that in the title fight between oscar piastri and lando norris with lando leading oscar in p2 and p3 mclaren were concerned about leclerc just behind in fourth place lando was happy for oscar to pit first but a slow stop for lando on the front left meant he ended up coming out behind oscar who was then asked by McLaren to give the place back and he was told that they were then free to race. They finished as they were and Oscar's lead at the top of the championship was cut by three points to 31. Let's start this segment by hearing what both drivers made of it starting with Oscar.

11:10It's something that we'll discuss you know we have discussed it before but you know I think today it was was a fair request you know Lando qualified ahead was ahead the whole race and And, you know, lost that spot through no fault of his own. So, you know, said what I had to say on the radio. And once I got the second request, then, you know, I'm not going to go against the team. So, I mean, I think there's a lot of people to protect and a culture to protect outside of just Lando and I. And ultimately, that's a very important thing going forward. In a situation where we want racing, in a situation where we can just be fair, then you'd expect to be fair as a team.

11:50They don't want to be the reasons to upset one driver or another through no fault of their own. Today was not my fault. So if I came flat out into my box and I hit all my mechanics out the way, I also don't expect to get the position back. But today was out of my control. And in the end, I don't want to win this way through getting given positions or anything like that. And the same thing with Oscar. We don't want to lose or win like that. But we do what we think is correct as a team and we stick to doing it our way. Lando, will anything change when McLaren wins the Constructors title? No, not that I know of.

12:25Ask Andrea. Well, Lando, I did ask Andrea. I caught up with him after the race and here's what he says about it. Andrea, many congratulations on yet another double podium for McLaren. Now, this was a very fast race, just one hour, 15 minutes, no safety cars. So there wasn't much going on for a period. and then of course there was the pit stops for you guys. Can you just explain what happened? Why, for example, Oscar pitted first? Yeah, so as you said, there wasn't a safety car or a red flag but actually it's what we were waiting for to happen because that would have put us in a strong position for trying to ever go at winning this race.

13:12So once Max pitted, we wanted to stay out as long as possible to see if a red flag or a safety car had happened and also we wanted the opportunity to go on soft tyres because in this case even if there was a safety car at some stage towards the end of the race Max would have been out on hard tyres we would be on soft so there were some situations that we were chasing these delayed the stop and delayed the stop to a point where we realized that we needed to go with Oscar first in going with Oscar first we always said there should be no swap oppositions, this is just the team going with this level of sequencing just before we wanted to push our attempt to win the race to the last moment You say you had to go with Oscar first can you just explain why?

14:05It was just in relation to Leclerc so we were a little You think you would have lost that position had you pitted Lando first? We will review the calculations. We will review the calculations. But at some stage, this risk emerged at the pitfall and we needed to take that into account. Right. Lando then has the troublesome pit stop. We know that. Oscar gets back past. Was it clear cut to you what to do next? It wasn't, like in all these things, a black and white because we are dealing with the application of principles. but as soon as we reflected on the situation and we compounded the fact that we had a slow p-stop but we also had a sequencing of p-stop which was determined by the team with absolutely no intent of swapping the positions.

14:59Once we compounded these two elements then for me in particular it was clear that the application of the racing principles we have at McLaren would have meant that we swap positions and then we let the guys race again. Will that ever change? I mean, when you've won the Constructors' Championship, will that change? Winning the Constructors' Championship is not a trigger for anything. I think I said that very clearly to some of your colleagues. There's no triggering that has to do with winning the World Championship. The only guidance, the only beacon we have is the application of our principles.

15:35And even this case, you know, in Formula 1, very rarely you get exactly the same situation. So the way we will use this case is to review it, see how consistent it was with the application of our racing principles. We will discuss it with the drivers and we will reinforce the way we go racing where needed and we will amend it if necessary with an open mind. But at the moment, I'm pretty comfortable that the situation was all consistent with our approach. You have created an impenetrable team spirit here, like I don't think I've ever seen in Formula 1 before. I guess it's a good thing to innovate.

16:19And while in Formula 1 you can innovate from a technical point of view, an operational point of view, an organisational point of view, you can also innovate in the way you go racing. and it's not like we innovate because you know we now come and we invent we have studied what has happened in the history of formula one it would have been i think naive not to take into account the lessons learned even if it involved other people and that's what we have used to create our principles in addition to just bringing our own way our own values to go racing Andrea, thanks for that. Well done today. Thank you.

16:58You can innovate in many different ways in Formula 1, it seems. Yeah, but I would not agree with Andrea on that because then you are there trying to be the good guys, the first of the class and trying to be the perfect in every way. And they're in a way doing that because last year we have to remember that Londoners could have stayed in front of Oscar in Hungary. And I think it's the same thing that's happening today. But I'm very frustrated because it's not Oscar's fault for the pitstop or other technical problems. and then you don't let the drivers fight till the last drop of the sportiness.

17:54I prefer the fights that Lewis and Nico were having, especially in Monza, when they were trying to brake very late and then one is doing mistake. Okay, it's perfect. They are so far ahead that they can do that, but then we don't have anything apart saying, oh, they're trying to innovate and they are very polite and the spirit in the team is very nice. I prefer the two guys like Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost, like Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg. But that's my view. I think the problem for me is where is the limit? So what they were trying to do, they were trying to orchestrate the strategy in a way that the positions wouldn't be changed.

18:38And they ended up being changed by something outside of their control. and the rationale is this is out of Norris control, so Norris needs to get the position back. But Norris and the car and the team, they are one. It's really hard to set the limit of what is Norris' mistake that is going to cost him, let's say, that he jumped his marks and then the pit stop is low because of that. Then are you going to change the position? because it's a driver error that made the pit stop being delayed, right? So where is the line? Ju, I think you can extrapolate that further and say, okay, Lando lost, what was it, three, four seconds in the pit stop today.

19:24What happens if one of them's half a second slower in a pit stop? Is that unfair? That's my point because that's what would happen if they just missed their mark. So are you going to go deeply into the why was the pit stop slow? Where do you draw the line? Yeah, that's a question. And this is what André to us was saying afterwards. We are going to review everything that's happened with the drivers. And he was very precise. He said reviewing for me doesn't mean changing. It's just let's go back and see what could have been done better. That's one aspect of what's going on. The other thing I'm hugely, I think, hugely impressed about is the control that Andrea has on these two drivers.

20:14They do exactly what they are told. You see Oscar saying, no, that's not good. And then he backups and it's over. And that's over. So I don't understand how he's able to do that. Yeah, he's innovative in that way. So it's always the same talking with the team principal saying team is first and drivers. But then you can see that even Leo E. Samilton, Nico Rosberg, Fernando Alonso and Leo E. Samilton in 207. You have so many examples. Nelson Pickett and Nigel Mansell. It's impossible to have two, how do you say that, male alpha? Alpha males in the same, two alpha males in the same team. But that's kind of what they've got.

21:01And do you know that the irony in all this is that Oscar Piastri's manager, Mark Webber, I am damn sure if he was in this situation, would give a V sign to the team and absolutely go for it. I really do. I think it has to do also with who they are as people, Lando and Oscar as well. It's not only Andreas, not only management, but those two guys, they seem to have a different understanding of how they go on about racing. I don't know if it's just printed out in their minds by Andrea or if something comes from within them. So it's just the perfect scenario of all minds thinking the same way. Because even when they crashed, everything was fine.

21:46Even when they crashed in Montreal, everything was fine. And remember the crash in Turkey in 2010 between Marc and Fethel. That's the point I'm making about Weber. when he was in a championship fight, it was all about number one. And maybe this is modern Formula One now. I don't know. But I feel that you want to just tap Lando and Oscar on the shoulder and say, you know, they keep saying, look, we want to do this for many years. But with the regulation change coming next year, there is no guarantee that McLaren will have the advantage that they currently have. This may be their only opportunity in their careers to go for a championship like this.

22:28And at some point, I just feel they need to be reminded of that. And that's not to take away of any of the team spirit and everything that Andrea has built. I think it's incredible. And I do think when you compare McLaren last year to this year and all the insecurities that there were around this race team last year, it's unbelievable the transformation that's gone on in 12 months. So it is brilliant what they've created. but equally the constructors championship is all but one you're going to win that the team is going to win that McLaren now let the guys really go for it because this may be the only chance you know I was speaking at Mercedes earlier and they were telling me that Toto he regrets the way he managed the team in 2016 because it was the same situation so the championship was won by the team and they tried to impose a lot of rules between the drivers.

23:25No, when this happens, trying to cover every scenario possible. And that didn't end up well, because they just couldn't cover everything, and then it was over-managed the fight between the two drivers, and that's one of his regrets from his old days. But again, different people, you never know. They know better than us the people who they are managing and how it works. But neither Lewis or Nico were like Londo or Oscar. What do you mean by that, Fred? Because Nico has been all his life obsessed by winning against Lewis. He was always beaten. And he was beaten harshly in 15 after going to the last round in 14.

24:14then when he saw the opportunity I can tell you that there were no more rules and you could see that it was going ugly it was not only on the track let's just quickly talk about the pace of the two McLaren drivers Lando had had the legs of Oscar it felt this weekend he was always the quicker driver what do you think he'll take from this weekend Lando Norris he's now what is he 31 points behind Oscar? I think the situation with Landau in the championship is that he's far behind, but in terms of pace, in every race they are very close and last race he was actually better, but he lost out in qualifying and then it completely changed the scenario for the race.

25:00And here he was able, it was very important for him after everything that happened last week to be able to, okay, I was better in every single session and then in qualifying I'm better as well. Don't let the other guy grow because that's what happened last week. So it's important for him because the situation for him must be terrible because he's not that far behind the championship in terms of pace. I'm fascinated when we go to Baku. I think we're going to see McLaren have a bit more of a performance advantage there than we've seen here. And I wonder whether with two weeks to think about everything that's gone on in Monza, we might turn up in Baku with a bit more of an edge.

25:42Remember what Piastri did last year in Baku? It was a wonderful race. It was a fantastic race by him. So that's going to be in the back of Lando's mind, of course. And now you said that Max was a little bit back. If the car is not too bad, he can be between the two of them. And then he stole a lot of points of Lando today, but maybe he can give a lot of points to Londo next week or in two weeks time or give another hedge to Oscar if it's the other way around. So he can be the referee of the championship. That's a very good way of putting it. I don't know whether you guys were in the post-race press conference but the referee was asleep for most of it.

26:32There was a lot of chat about obviously the McLaren drivers swapping places and Max was sat between them in the middle and was lying down. So can you wake up your referee? Because we might need him. He saves his energy to the important stuff.

26:54There's more to come from Monza in a minute, but I did want to let you know about the other official F1 podcast this week. Gabriele Bortoletto is actually my guest on this week's episode of F1 Beyond the Grid. he tells me the fascinating story of leaving Brazil at the age of 11 to pursue his F1 dream his relationship with Hulkenberg and how sim racing helps his driving in real life that's out on Wednesday and you can also watch the pod on the F1 YouTube channel and Gabby's boss Sauber's Jonathan Wheatley is on this week's ask a team principal episode of F1 Explains that's out on Friday just search for F1 Beyond the Grid and F1 Explains on your podcast app

27:36let's talk about the national team now uh i was going to call them the red team but they were the red and white team of course celebrating nikki lauda's 1975 uh first world championship it was an interesting weekend for ferrari wasn't it they really hit the ground running on friday both drivers very competitive and then it feels that the pace slipped away the deeper into the weekend we got. Is my read of that correct? Yeah, we always think that Ferrari, maybe in free practices here, they try harder than other teams just to, you know, Turn it up. Yeah, turn it up a little bit or maybe, yeah. That's what it feels like.

28:19Every year we come here and it's the same story. But they did really well. Even if you think about Q1, Q2, Q3, it was the closest they've been maybe all year or from what I can remember. Yeah. And of course, they were on pole position recently with Leclerc, but that was Leclerc just doing the difference. It was, that was a car performance this weekend in qualifying that they did really well. They've chosen not to do the tow, which created some controversy, but it has become harder to do this in Monza because of the time limit they need to set for the opening lap to prepare the tyres, and then it's trickier to do the toe, so that's why they didn't do it.

29:06But they were very close, and Charles, it was important for him because he had absolutely no wing behind him. He needed to get some positions in the beginning, and he didn't actually manage to. He ended up being overtaken by Oscar. he got Oscar position but got overtaken and that there's nothing he could do from there because there was a there was a little bit of a pace gap but still a lot smaller than in any other race that we've seen in the recent ones of course the Ferrari from last year was developed over the winter and it's a much faster racing car now but the DNA of these racing cars remains the same and I was very hopeful for Ferrari coming here because Leclerc won Monaco last year and he was competitive again in Monaco this year.

29:59So I thought the characteristics that made last year's car strong had carried through into 2025. And I thought, you're pointing at me, Fred, but I thought maybe that would. And of course, he won the race last year. Brilliant strategic race. But I thought they would be more on it than they were. Yeah, but you'll forget something. tell me Fred they changed the characteristic of the car this summer remember the new rear suspension the new brakes the new steering wheel but the DNA I'm talking about something far deeper than that you can see that since then they are faster in quality and especially with Lewis which is very close now to Charles and I think we're going to see soon Lewis overtaking Charles on the Saturday, which is quite a strong thing because Charles is not too bad when it comes on one lap.