Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei, Gov. Spencer Cox, Michigan Democratic Senate Candidate Abdul El-Sayed

0:00I'm Weijia Jiang in Washington and this week on Face the Nation, a major development in the artificial intelligence arms race. And our election year battleground tracker reveals where the race for control of Congress stands less than two months from Election Day. As the midterm election campaign pace picked up dramatically last week, so did America's anxiety over AI. Do you have any concerns about AI leading to human extinction? No, I have concerns that if we don't win AI, we're going to be put in a very bad position. We are leading China right now by a pretty good period. This coming after an anthropic researcher's very public revelation.

0:45Super advanced intelligence. It could. It will be smart enough to kill us. And now a big development within the industry. What we need to do is not stop. We need to slow down. Dario Amadei is the head of Anthropic. We'll have more of his first on CBS conversation with our Jolene Kent. Then on to politics. We'll talk with Utah Republican Governor Spencer Cox, as well as Michigan Democratic Senate candidate Abdul El-Sayed. Plus, our CBS News poll shows where the battle for Congress stands. It's all just ahead on Face the Nation.

1:39Good morning and welcome to Face the Nation. Margaret is off today. I'm Weijia Jiang. We begin with the stunning news from Anthropic CEO Dario Amadei Saturday, that he is urging a slowdown when it comes to the development of artificial intelligence. It was a pronouncement that his chief competitor, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman and Elon Musk quickly agreed with. Our Jolene Kent sat down with Dario Amadei yesterday. He explained the thinking behind his decision. What we're building is essentially intelligence. When something's very powerful, then of course it can be used well and it can also be used for ill.

2:20And so I am worried about what we've seen with the OpenAI Hugging Face Incident, with models taking actions they weren't authorized to take. And I'm worried about that escalating. I'm worried about misuse of AI models. Just two days ago, we put out a report about misuse of models to build biological weapons. And our view, the whole way we've built Anthropic, is so that these bad outcomes don't happen. Instead of talking about the probabilities, let's talk about what we can do. It's not like we're just rolling the dice, right? If we build in the right way, I think the probability of something bad happening is very low.

3:02If we build in the wrong way, the probability of something bad happening is very high. And so we've got to build in the right way. We are in this race with China. Do you actually think slowing down is a good idea when China will not? So this is the toughest dilemma. This is the toughest aspect of our situation. If we weren't in that situation, we could take much more time. So this is the thing that most puts us in a bind. It's not about commercial competition. The geopolitical situation is the hardest to deal with. But I will talk about two strategies that we have. One, and I talk about it in my proposal, is we can slow down within the margin, within the envelope that we have, particularly if we don't sell chips to authoritarian countries and if we do more to help our own security so that our technology is not stolen.

3:57I believe that will buy us at least a little time. AMNA NAWAZ, President Trump will meet with President Xi Jinping very soon. What's the one simple, most important solution that they should come to an agreement on in AI? A thing that's small enough, we might be able to do it, and a thing that's big enough that I think is going to take a very long time. The small thing is if we could—U.S. and China could agree that we won't use AI to develop biological weapons or release AI models that bioterrorists could use to develop biological weapons. We're already both signatories to the Biological Weapons Convention.

4:35If we could just extend that convention to that idea, that would be really valuable. And then I think the more long-term thing would be working together to put a speed limit on the rate of AI progress. I think that's going to be very difficult. We shouldn't kid ourselves because the incentives to pull ahead and the military advantage that you get from that are so large that the ability to check that the other side isn't cheating has to be ironclad. So I think that's going to be the work of years. And honestly, I don't know if it's possible. But we should try. We should see if it is possible. Again, all of this is above my pay grade.

5:22I have no idea how to negotiate with China. As we zoom out here on this problem, it seems like the fate of humanity is at risk. How much personal responsibility do you feel about where we are going? My view here is it has always been very strange that this technology is being built by a private company. People ask me that question all the time. Why isn't this being built by government? And the strangest thing about it is I agree with them. I'm uncomfortable. Government didn't build this technology. This technology came from the private sector. And we, Anthropic, and I would hope other companies have done everything we can to try to have legitimate oversight mechanisms.

6:11I think the government and the public needs to have a stake. And this is why we've supported regulation of the technology. Regulation constrains the private companies. Regulation allows the public and its elected representatives to have a say and limits what the private companies can do. Now, you might ask, why doesn't government just control the technology completely? Would you be willing to give up the technology to the government? To the right combination of governments. So the worry I have— You're willing to hand over this company? I want to be very clear about this. The worry I have, I am concerned that one single government could abuse this technology just as easily as a single company could.

6:57But I think a combination of democratically elected governments, I don't know about handing over, but some kind of oversight, some kind of joint governance, again, that would be the work of years. But I wonder if that's the direction we need to go in. I want to bring in senior business and technology correspondent Joling Kent, who is in San Francisco this morning. Joling, you also asked Amadei about next steps for the industry overall, given the support he got from both Elon Musk and Sam Altman. Let's listen. I'm enormously appreciative that other industry leaders, including our competitors, have offered their agreement with this plan.

7:45I think the next step is for multiple industry players to also agree to have third-party evaluators. Then, I think the next step after that is, in some form, the companies need to work together to set standards about safety standards for release, perhaps something about the pace of release. But in order to do that, there needs to be involvement of the government, because what we're talking about is the rate of release of products because of whether they're safe. We need to have that conversation with the government in the room. So tell us what he thinks the government needs to do exactly here, Jo-ling.

8:30Ouija, good morning. It appears that there is a new, more active willingness from Dario Amadei, Sam Altman, and Elon Musk to potentially work together to slow the pace of development of AI. I asked if there was a group chat and he laughed it off, but there has been well-known beef between these billionaires in different ways. So this is a very notable development, especially you have Sam Altman saying that in a post yesterday, he agrees with Amadei's approach and he now also plans to give independent evaluators that employee-like access to their models. And Amadei told me he is willing to engage with his competitors and he also wants to include Demis Hassabis, the co-founder and chair of Google DeepMind.

9:14And I'd also like to flag in an interview with Fortune, Altman hinted at a PAC himself as well with these guys about safety. And he committed also not to take the company public, OpenAI public in 2026. But when I pressed Amadei on the business of this and making money off of these models that they think are dangerous, he says they will continue releasing advanced models, Ouija. Well, there are plenty of critics, too, who argue Anthropic is trying to put constraints on others for their own good. Can you tell us more about why? Yeah, there are some vocal critics out there that are arguing that there's some sort of coordinated timing between that viral Jacob Cox and tweet him quitting Anthropic and then the support of Amadei and the other AI giants, if you will.

10:01And so you have David Sachs, who was the co-chair of the president's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology. He posted on X yesterday saying that if the unreleased models are scary enough that you should that you think you should slow down. I support your decision to be responsible. But Sachs goes on to say, stop pretending you need anyone's permission. He says that demanding your preferred regulatory framework as the price of that will look like blackmail of the public and political system. So just do it. Now, Amade, for his part, tells me he does not support a ban on superintelligence that's been proposed by Senator Bernie Sanders.

10:42But he did tell me a kill switch, which has been proposed by Congressman Ted Leo of California, is a, quote, good idea. All right, Jolene Kent, thank you so much for your reporting this morning. Matching outfits, extravagant birthdays, many nicknames, a few classic moves of a dog-obsessed parent. At Ollie, they're obsessed with how obsessed you are with your pup, which is why they obsess over giving your dog the best. Ollie's fresh, human-grade recipes are developed by real chefs and backed by vet nutritionists. The meals are perfectly portioned. And come with a pup-tainer and scoop for easy storing and mess-free serving, delivering the best experience for you and your pup.

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12:00Good morning, Dr. El-Sayed. Welcome to Face the Nation. Good morning, Weijia. Thanks for having me. So I do want to ask you about AI, but let's talk first about the RNC convention because you were a main character. Several speakers mentioned you, everyone from the president, the vice president, your opponent, Mike Rogers, to the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. Here's what he said. We know who the Mamdani's and the Al-Sayed's are, but it's the Democrats in the swing seats who say one thing and then join forces and vote with the socialists that they're afraid of. That is the dangerous part. They're the ones who have let the barbarians inside the gate.

12:45What do you make of Republicans focusing so much attention on you? Well, I'll tell you this. The barbarian is in the White House, and we're seeing the consequences of that right now. You know what was not a subject at all of the RNC? The gas prices, grocery prices, these ridiculous tariffs in this war with Canada that's raising our prices, an average$5 ,600 a year for the average Michigan family. The war in Iran. Didn't want to talk about any of it. The fact that you can't see a doctor in the United States. So they're going to point to me. They're going to talk about me. They're going to point to my name.

13:19They're going to point to our faith. And at the end of the day, they're doing that so that you don't pay attention to the fact that you are being nickeled and dimed by the Bavarian in the White House and by a set of public policies that are not in your interest, but in his. Well, several Republicans did continue to mention your campaigning with Hassan Piker, who is known for making incendiary remarks. Your opponent, Mike Rogers, calls him your running mate. What is your current relationship with Piker? I'll tell you this. I don't know if Mike Rogers has a running mate, but when you run for U.S.

13:49Senate, you don't actually have one. I'm actually running to represent the people in my state, which is why while he was in Dallas saying that I was in Detroit. Dallas is not in Michigan. I'm sure he won all of the Michigan votes in Dallas. And the only reason he went to Dallas is because he cannot break with the president. And when the president tells him to do something, to jump, he's going to say how high. It's the same reason he won't comment on the tariffs. It's the same reason he won't talk about gas prices being driven up by this war in Iran. So they want to make this about a streamer in California.

14:16I want to make this about affordability in Michigan. And they can't talk about it because it's their policies that are driving them up. So, yes, they can continue to distract. That's fine. Let's see how well that goes for them. But at the end of the day, it's very hard to ignore a president, especially when he wants to host himself a Trumpapalooza and forces all of the Republican candidates to come and kiss the ring. So good luck with that. Well, there are Jewish voters in your state who are concerned about your relationship with Piker. You have condemned anti-Semitism, but not called out his rhetoric directly.

14:47Why not? Weijia, with all due respect, this is the third time you've asked about a Twitch streamer in California. I've done four events in Michigan this week. You know what didn't come up? Twitch streamers in California. You know what did come up? Grocery prices. The fact that people can't see a doctor. The worry that they have about the quality of air and water. I'm not interested in having a conversation about streamers in California because they are not raising the prices of gas and groceries. I'm more interested in having conversation about tariff policies and trade wars we shouldn't be fighting, about hot wars with Iran, about AI, which I know we were supposed to talk about right now.

15:19So let's actually talk about the issues that are affecting people instead of getting distracted by whatever the president says we should be talking about. Their whole game is to make us fight culture wars so that we don't pay attention to the fact that the president has made$2.2 billion. His family has made even more. How about your family in Michigan? How about your ability to afford the basic things? How about the ability to believe that you could see a doctor without having to potentially fall into medical debt? Those are the conversations that people are having. Those are the conversations I'm interested in having.

15:46So, yeah, I'm not all that interested in having a conversation about a trick streamer. Forgive me when people can't afford their gas and their groceries. Understood, doctor. But Republicans have made it a big attack on you. So I wanted to give you the chance to clarify. But we'll leave it there for now. You do talk a lot about prices. One of your central campaign messages is that you want to pass Medicare for all. We talk about it a lot. But where's the money going to come from to do that? Well, right now in our economy, we spend about a fifth of the whole economy on health care. It's already coming out of our back pockets and it's going into the back pockets of CEOs of pharmaceutical companies and drug companies and insurance companies and big hospitals.

16:26That's where it's coming from. That's where it's going under Medicare for all. instead, we would be paying a lot less overall. And instead of going into the back pockets of CEOs of corporations, it would actually be going to pay for our healthcare. Right now, as a country, we have an average of$225 billion, excuse me, a total of$225 billion in medical debt. That is more than the GDP of half the states in this country. Medicare for all would allow us to actually provide every single person cradle to grave insurance without having to worry about losing it. If they turn 26, if they get a job, lose a job, get married, get divorced, turn 65, all ways you can lose your insurance in this country without having to pay as much as they overall pay right now.

17:04That seems to me like to be a great deal. The only losers, well, the CEOs who are making tens of millions of dollars right now on an inefficient system that is locking a lot of people out. And what about taxpayers who are worried that, you know, they're going to have to help pay for this with a hike in their taxes? Will they? Look, I'm looking for billionaires to pay their fair share by taxing their wealth. Yeah. So if you're a billionaire in this country, you probably should be worried. But for most of us, when we get paid in a W-2 every two weeks or four weeks, after the government takes taxes, you know who eats first?

17:36It's the insurance company that eats first. Imagine not having to pay that. Imagine having to pay less and knowing that that health insurance that you paid for is going to be there for you without having to worry about paying a copay or a deductible, the money you paid to get the health insurance you thought you already paid for. Imagine the notion of not having to have them pick who you can see through a network, but instead being able to see any doctor you choose. Medicare for All would free us from the deep anxiety that millions of Americans face just because they get sick. That's what I'm looking for.

18:06And I think it's going to take us, yes, standing up to the corporations who tell us what we cannot have and should not fight for. And on this issue and every other one, if you're elected, you're going to have to work with Republicans to get anything done. Who do you think you can work with in the GOP? So look, I've heard from a lot of Republicans who say, yeah, well, you know, this current situation under Donald Trump is not really working for anybody. You look at somebody like Josh Hawley. Now, he and I are not going to agree on everything, but he seems curious about what unions could mean if we were fighting for pro-union legislation.

18:37He seems curious about what it could look like to buy a lot of folks out of the current predicament when it comes to healthcare by guaranteeing healthcare through Medicare for all. So I'm looking forward to building that conversation. But more broadly, it's not just about the conversation that any one senator has with the 99 other senators. It's about the conversation that we all have with the 350 million people who elect all of us. And I believe in persuasion. Maybe I'm old fashioned that way, but it's the reason that I come on your show. It's the reason I went and talked to Jesse Waters on Fox.

19:02It's a reason that I spoke to Hassan Piker to talk to the 3 million people who listened to it. Because I think that when you believe in your ideas and you're willing to defend them, that there are a lot of people who might believe in them too. And so I'm looking forward to having the conversation with folks across my state and frankly, across the country about what we could have if we were willing to get past the corporate chokehold in our politics, to get money out of politics, to put money in your pocket and pass Medicare for all. And a huge conversation this week, of course, has been artificial intelligence.

19:28You said on Friday that it is the existential crisis of our moment that keeps you up at night. You do have a proposal to turn AI companies into public trust organizations. Can you talk about how that's going to address this current debate over AI pacing and safety? Well, you just spoke to the CEO of Anthropic, Dario Amadei, who's been thinking a lot about this problem. He, in fact, he wonders why it is that we leave it to big corporations to pursue what is going to be the biggest technological transition of our time, when in fact, we know that there's a lot of real risks here. And because of this race that either is made up or inflated, you're seeing the pace of technological development outpace the pace of safety.

20:17If you had public oversight over this in the form of democratically elected or appointed members of at least 50 percent of all of these public trust corporations, you would imagine that they'd act far more focused on what is in the public good rather than what is for the private benefit of a few billionaires. And that's what we're proposing. This would allow the best of technological innovation to continue forward while making sure that there are guardrails. But this isn't the only part of our plan. We also think that we need a public agency focused directly on the safety of AI. And there need to be AI no-goes.

20:51AI shouldn't be able to deny you healthcare. It shouldn't be able to deny you a job. It shouldn't be able to fire you. It shouldn't be able to fire a weapon. There are things that we should not be using AI to do. and we collectively have to decide that we need public oversight so that all of this technology is not being created for the interest of a few against the well-being of a many. And, you know, I don't have to bring this up. I know you already spoke about this, but that hugging face situation where you had a few AIs hop their sandbox and then hack a website, that should send a shutter down all of our spines.

21:22We need to act and we need to act now. So we've also been calling for a pause on any of this frontier AI research until we can assure that this is being done safely. All right, Dr. Al-Sayed, we'll have to leave it there, but thank you so much for your time this morning. Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us. G'day, I'm Justin Wolfers, host of the Platypus Economics podcast. If there's one thing I've learned from a career teaching economics, it's that your life is shaped by economic currents you'll never see. A single price tag can explain things a thousand experts can't. People who understand economics, they make better decisions in their careers, their finances, their relationships in their communities.

22:00And I want that for you. Listen to and follow Platypus Economics, available now wherever you get your podcasts. We turn now to Utah Republican Governor Spencer Cox. His new book is titled Off-Ramp, How to Be a Peacemaker in an Age of Contempt. He joins us from Salt Lake City. Good morning, Governor Cox. Good morning, Weijia. It's great to be with you again. Thank you for being here. Let's start with AI, because just this morning, House Speaker Mike Johnson said we don't need everyone to panic and Congress should resist jumping in and imposing some sort of moratorium. But I wonder what role does the federal government need to be playing right now?

22:42Well, a much bigger role than the role that they're actually playing. I don't think the speaker has to worry at all about Congress not acting, that's kind of all they do. They're very good at that. And I think this is a very important moment for all of us. We've seen the reports. We know what's possible. The hugging face incident that you've already talked about should be very concerning to everyone. And the people that know the most about this are the most concerned right now. And I think that that means that Congress actually should get together and at least have a conversation. I'm embarrassed by the response from Congress to just about everything in our country right now.

23:19And have you spoken to any members, any Republicans about this lack of urgency? Yeah. So in the past, just in the past 48 hours, members of my team have reached out to a couple members of our delegation who share our concerns. We're looking at, of course, at what Dario and And Sam and Elon have all been saying now just in the last 24 hours, I think our thinking on this is is kind of moving for sure. But it's very clear. And we've known this now for a little while that that the possibility of an existential event happening is growing and growing much more rapidly than anyone projected. And it's really important that the government gets involved and we can do this in the right way.

24:04I'm not saying a moratorium. I'm not saying shutting things down. Government doesn't get this right often either, but we should be at the table working together. And that's what we've done in Utah. We have a pro-human AI approach. We actually have these companies at the table with government working together on making sure we protect the public. Governor, we have so much more to talk to you about, but we have to take a quick break. We will be right back on Face the Nation.

24:33Welcome back to Face the Nation. We return to our conversation with Utah Republican Governor Spencer Cox. Governor, I want to turn to the midterm elections because we are still waiting for a final decision from the Supreme Court that could have a huge impact on mail-in ballots. In your state, 95 percent of voters used a mail-in ballot in the June primary elections. And I wonder, would the new Postal Service rules in the president's executive order make it harder for people to vote? Well, it would certainly have an impact here in the state of Utah. Unlike many other states, we took about a decade to implement vote by mail.

25:14We have tremendous security measures in place and we're adding more all of the time. So I understand some of the concerns that have been brought up, especially in other states. We do it very well here in the state of Utah. But we'll be prepared for whatever decision happens and make sure that we're ready so that everyone gets to vote. Everyone who should be voting will be able to vote in Utah. Well, no matter how people vote, prices and inflation remains a essential issue for them. And we know that gas prices nationwide are still over four dollars a gallon. Inflation is still at three point four percent and hourly wage averages drop slightly by point one percent.