Extended Interview: America's Governors Panel

12:50Margaret Brennan:Why isn't that the case in your state?

12:53Governor Gretchen Whitmer:Oh, I didn't say it wasn't.

12:55Margaret Brennan:You think that cooperation is a drain on locals?

12:59Governor Gretchen Whitmer:I think when ICE comes into your state that it creates some problems and creates some problems for your local law enforcement because it's sort of a who's on first, who's in charge here. And I think that's been a problem. My approach has always been, you know, when we work with the federal government on anything, whether it's disaster relief or with our National Guard, you know, we look for ways to cooperate and partner. That's what we want to see, you know, if they're going to come in and try to do enforcement, immigration enforcement in our state.

13:40Margaret Brennan:Have you had that communication from federal authorities about?

13:43Governor Gretchen Whitmer:No. No. I mean, and we have had, they've started now. We've seen some ice in some of our communities. And we are, you know, I mean, the whole idea of, you know, picking up criminals who are here illegally is nothing new. That happens on an everyday basis and has for years. So we don't have any problem with that. What we would like is for ICE to then work with our local law enforcement so that if they want to come into Kansas communities, work with us so that we can go after those targeted folks, not sort of what we saw in Minnesota where it's just a free for all.

14:32Margaret Brennan:Governor Beshear, in your state, the Republican legislators want to pass a bill to force the state to work. with ICE, as I understand it. You're not a fan of this idea.

14:42Governor Asa Hutchinson:Why? We'll see what happens in my state legislature, because at the end of, I think, last week, two of our Republican senators got up on the Senate floor and talked about how they thought this immigration enforcement had gone too far. For me, I believe that border security is national security, and we need it to tighten our borders. We also have to enforce our laws as a nation, but how we do it shows our humanity or our lack thereof. Shackling people's legs, putting them in cages that we would not put animals in is wrong. Where have you seen that? Well, you see it in the pictures coming out of the alligator Alcatraz or other facilities.

15:16Governor Asa Hutchinson:We read about kids getting sick and not getting the health care they need in the Texas facility. But the tactics of ICE show that there is a significant training problem, far too aggressive, and there is now an American body count. They believe they can go into an American citizen's home with just an administrative warrant. They cannot. So I've called for the retraining of all ICE agents. And in the meantime, if they think there's a violent criminal in Kentucky illegally, send us his or her name. We'll go get them.

15:45Margaret Brennan:You're talking there about administrative versus judicial warrants and the ability to enter. Do you then appreciate what's happening here in Washington with Democrats cutting off some of that short-term funding for homeland security on that issue, along with others?

16:01Governor Asa Hutchinson:I do. And I wish we didn't have to be at this point, but we have an American body count. We have at least two ICE agents that are being investigated for perjury. We have others, Americans that have been injured or hurt that shouldn't have been. I was the top law enforcement official in Kentucky. I've never seen a law enforcement agency, state, local, or federal, act with the same tactics that ICE does. And these are on our streets. These are in our cities.

16:25Margaret Brennan:They would argue that the amount of immigration was at such unprecedented levels that new operational things had to be adapted. That's what the administration argues, right? That they have to do the tough business now. You're not buying it.

16:41Governor Asa Hutchinson:Watch the videos. This is not how law enforcement acts. This is not respecting our rights as Americans. It's wrong.

16:52Margaret Brennan:Governor DeWine, in Ohio, your state has been the focus of the Trump-Vance campaign during 2024 and of their administration now, particularly the Haitians that you have, tens of thousands in the state of Ohio. You said this week ICE has not been clear on when they're going to surge to your state. Did you bring that up when you were at the White House?

17:16Governor Jay Inslee:I did not. I didn't really have the opportunity to do that. Look, Margaret, my position has been very clear in regard to TPS for Haitians.

17:26Margaret Brennan:Temporary protected status, which the president is trying to revoke right now.

17:29Governor Jay Inslee:I think the policy to revoke that is wrong. I think there's a consensus in this country, as we all have said, let's get rid of the violent offenders, get them out of here. I think there's a consensus behind the need to do a good job on the border. And I think the president gets high marks for doing that on the on the border. But once you get beyond that, I don't think there's a consensus for taking people who are working or supporting their family. And we've kind of seen it in almost in a micro way with the Haitian community that's come into Springfield. Springfield is an industrial city, manufacturing city that was down.

18:09Governor Jay Inslee:It has been coming back. And frankly, one of the reasons it's coming back is because of the Haitians who are working there. These are people who, if you talk to the employers, they were filling jobs that were not being able to be filled in any other way. So it's been a big boost to the economy. So if one day they know that TPS is taken away, no employer can hire them anymore. And so you have all these people who are unemployed. So I think the policy there is wrong. If I could just say this, I think that this is a real opportunity for the president in regard to immigration, probably after the election, after the election, because nothing's going to get done before the midterms of 2026.

18:50Margaret Brennan:That's right.

18:50Governor Jay Inslee:But I think there's an opportunity here. He sealed the border. You know, I was in Congress in the 80s when the Mazzoli bill, Simpson bill was passed. Excuse me. I've been through all the arguments. I think there's an opportunity here to get reform in legal immigration and make a decision who we really want to come in. I'll give you if I could just one example. We have our last count, 22 ,000 foreign students in the state of Ohio. We educate them. And then guess what happens? They go back home or they go someplace else. We've already educated them. They would be a great asset to the state of Ohio.

19:27Governor Jay Inslee:That's the type reform I think we need.

19:29Margaret Brennan:You're talking about comprehensive immigration reform and legal pathways.

19:31Governor Jay Inslee:I think the president has a chance to do something that no president has done for four decades. If he would take that opportunity, and I think after the election, he'll have a chance.

19:40Margaret Brennan:Because you think there's going to be a switch in the political hold of one of the chambers of Congress?

19:45Governor Jay Inslee:No, no, no. However the election comes out, I just think the time is now right. Because we always said we can't do legal immigration because the illegal is such a mess and the border is such a mess. And the president, frankly, has fixed the border. So I think it's an opportunity for all of us to go forward. I think it's an opportunity for the president to do it. Sort of a Richard Nixon going to China.

20:06Margaret Brennan:I hear you on that. And we'd all love to talk about policy. We'll see. But respectfully, the president's not talking about any of what you just laid out, particularly when he's talking about Haitians in Ohio. Everyone remembers that campaign. I'm an optimist. the claim they're eating cats and dogs. You're talking about hardworking people who are legally here and continuing to work.

20:27Governor Jay Inslee:And my position has been very clear. I'm against them losing.

20:31Margaret Brennan:You are clear. But are you making that clear to the president's immigration team? Are you coordinating or anything? Because we hear the complaints that Democrats or Republicans are not coordinating.

20:41Governor Jay Inslee:I don't discuss my contacts with the president or what I tell the president. But I think the administration knows my position on this. And I think, you know, if they were there, they would see that this has been good for our economy. It's been good for our community. We have people who are fixing up houses, opening up restaurants, spending money and filling jobs that couldn't be filled before. They're doing it. We need them in Ohio. We're a state that that as far as our influx of people coming into the state last year, 70 percent of those individuals were foreign born. They're giving us vibrancy and helping us.

21:22Governor Jay Inslee:And the fact that they're working creates other jobs, frankly.

21:26Margaret Brennan:Governor Braun, Indiana also had exceptionally high levels of immigration in recent years. We checked the data, according to the Census Bureau, nearly 10 percent of your labor labor force are immigrants. What are the president's policies doing? Are you having a similar experience to Governor DeWine?

21:43Governor Larry Hogan:So Indiana, among the pure states, has the lowest unemployment rate. And we've got the highest economic growth rate, too. That's due to certain policies. But let's get back to the border. It was the same legislative template under the prior administration that encouraged tens of millions to come into the country. So just like when we were talking about the trade issues, go back to the source of why it occurred. Here, it was bad policy calculated, I think, in a very political way to maybe think it's going to benefit you down the road electorally. Put that aside. That's a whole other issue.

22:20Margaret Brennan:I think, though, just to be clear here, you're not talking about illegal people who cannot vote.

22:25Governor Larry Hogan:No, I'm talking about how the census is determined, who how your congressional districts are put together. All I can tell you, it was a mess in those four years. And the same legislative template was in place during the Biden administration that the Trump administration has used. I think everybody agrees that we've got to have border security. And what we're hearing here is that immigration is definitely important, legal immigration. And the country was built upon immigrants. And when you're in a state like ours where you're constantly looking for workforce, you need to do it. There was even a conversation in an executive session at the NGA about governors getting more involved in work permits and bringing people in coordinated.

23:10Governor Larry Hogan:You know, I think that's a good idea.

23:12Margaret Brennan:How would that work? What do you mean?

23:13Governor Larry Hogan:Well, that would mean that governors would have some say so, like the dairy industry in our own state. Many other industries need certain workforce that generally is coming legally across the border. and many now illegal that are not documented. So there's a lot to get fixed, but we've got to look at why the problem we're dealing with now occurred in the first place.

23:38Margaret Brennan:But just to put a button on it, because I don't want us to speak past each other, what Governor DeWine was talking about was legal immigration and people with legal status, temporary protected status, not people who were profiting.

23:50Governor Larry Hogan:No, I know that, and I think we all agree on legal immigration. All I'm citing—

23:56Margaret Brennan:But you would like to keep that temporary protected status?

24:00Governor Larry Hogan:If that was something that was aimed at a particular workforce need, yes, it occurred. So I think you have to respect it. But I think it was all part of a really kind of chaotic approach that allowed a lot of illegal immigration to come across. That's what we're dealing now with ICE enforcement. And I'll agree, too. That's got to be done in a way that has humanity to it. I think the reason Tom Holman went up to Minnesota is maybe that was for that reason. But again, to bring humanity, to do something other than what we were seeing, to try to put some something together that was going to be different from what was occurring there.

24:38Governor Larry Hogan:But again, I think you've got to respect why did it happen? And this was due to bad policies in the prior administration. That's why we're dealing with all this.

24:47Governor Gretchen Whitmer:I should just jump in here. I've been governor now for seven years. I was a state senator for 14 years. So we're looking at over 20 years. Immigration, legal immigration and workforce have been issues forever. These are decades old. This didn't start in the Biden administration. And, you know, it's not only the Trump administration. This is just and I hope you're right, Governor DeWine, that when this election is over, that we can sit down and have that really important conversation and get something done so that we do have a common sense, responsible immigration policy that meets the needs of our businesses and our communities.

25:32Margaret Brennan:It's a whole bipartisan agreement on that one. That cooler heads prevail and policymaking actually happens? Yes.

25:39Governor Asa Hutchinson:Yeah, that we actually do the math and get the law right.

25:42Margaret Brennan:Yeah. I just want to move us along here because you touched something that I want to bring to the table as well, which is just the environment we are in and how difficult it is to get things done. Governor Braun, there were at least 12 state senators in Indiana targeted with swatting or bomb threats this fall. And that happened after the president faulted you as well, by name, in a social media post.

26:09Governor Larry Hogan:I was one of those targets as well. You were.

26:11Margaret Brennan:And that's why I want to bring it up to you. You were being faulted by him for not getting the votes to redistrict your state and carve out a more favorable voting map for Republicans.

26:21Governor Larry Hogan:That's because he didn't understand. All I could do is call a special session. OK, so be clear on that.

26:27Margaret Brennan:That the president didn't understand.

26:29Governor Larry Hogan:Well, I don't think that's the only thing I as governor could do. And that was to call, which I did.

26:35Margaret Brennan:OK, I'm not faulting you. But are the elected officials, though, who don't deliver the president what he wants at risk? I mean, that is difficult for you. You're having to explain that.

26:49Governor Larry Hogan:I think there's a political consequence to anything that you do. And in this case, well, in this case, every other state that was requested to do it did it. That doesn't mean that the next state has to. But let's look again. I always like to look at the root of the issue. The root of the issue is that Massachusetts, which is a same size state we are for 20 years, 60-40, blue-red, we're 60-40 the other way, has gerrymandered to where there isn't a seat in New England, the place where there are a lot more electoral votes than the four or five western states that hardly have any congressional districts.

27:29Governor Larry Hogan:They've done it. I think what he was looking for is an even playing field. And now it's kind of back and forth. I don't know what we're going to end up with.

27:39Margaret Brennan:He was looking for a Republican majority. He said it out loud.

27:43Governor Larry Hogan:Because I think if you look at it, the other side is gerrymandered more effectively over the years. And that's what he was asking.

27:50Margaret Brennan:And Democrats, no doubt, are gerrymandering as well. I want to give Donald Trump credit.

27:55Governor Asa Hutchinson:He owns his policies and he just said out loud, I want more Republican seats.

28:01Governor Larry Hogan:And that's because of the best example cited. New England been gerrymandered for years. They've been faster footed than we've been on that issue.

28:10Margaret Brennan:And California as well, jumping in on that. But Governor DeWine, we're talking about the environment we're in right now. And when I brought up the Haitians in your state, I mean, you have also brought national, that has brought national attention to Ohio, the president's messaging around this. You've had bond threats you've talked about recently. How do you deal with that, with this level of rhetoric and managing that?

28:38Governor Jay Inslee:Well, when that came up a year ago.

28:40Margaret Brennan:But it's continued.

28:42Governor Jay Inslee:I understand. I mean, you ask how we deal with it. We deal with it. The schools, the superintendent wanted to close the schools, felt he needed to close the schools. They were getting bomb threats every day. So I called him up. I said, what do you need? And we put in the highway patrol in the schools. And we kept them in for three weeks. Look, you do what you have to do. That's what all governors do. You do what you have to do. We want those kids in school. And that's what we did. I mean, the bigger question is, how do we tamp down the rhetoric from both sides? and how do we, you know, get things done.

29:17Governor Jay Inslee:And I think one of the things coming out of the last three days of the National Governor's Association, whenever we get together, it's pretty clear we're all problem solvers. We deal with problems every day. We solve problems or we try to solve problems every single day. And I think, you know, to me, that's where our focus needs to be, but solve the different problems that we have.

29:36Margaret Brennan:Well, and that's what's interesting in the dynamics both of you have in your states as Democrats, but with states that voted overwhelmingly for Trump and states where you're dealing across the aisle with Republican-controlled legislatures. How do you govern as a Democrat in this environment? And are there lessons? I mean, is that too simplistic to say that there are lessons on the state level you can bring to the national level? Well, my approach has always been to go across the aisle, form relationships, and get things done.

30:12Governor Gretchen Whitmer:I started, you know, the day I walked into the state Senate in 2005, I was one of eight Democrats and 32 Republicans. It was very clear to me if I didn't make some friends across the aisle, I was never going to get anything done. And just like Governor DeWine said, we're problem solvers. We get into these jobs because we want to do something. And so that was the approach I took then. And I think that's carried over into my time as governor, the relationships that I formed in the legislature. has boded well for my time as governor. I've been able to continue those relationships, and clearly we don't agree on a lot of things, but I think we have enough respect for one another to sit down and to listen and to, not always, but at times come to some consensus on legislation.

31:05Governor Gretchen Whitmer:you know at the times we don't they you know i work with the super majority you know and they can easily override my vetoes um tell me about it yeah i know i i know but uh but even even there you know uh because of the relationships i have we've been able to if it comes to that you know been able to go down and work with some of the republicans to get them to perhaps sustain the vetoes because it's in the best interest. And I think most legislators, regardless of party, really are interested in doing good things.

31:37Margaret Brennan:Can you bring this to the national stage, this idea?

31:40Governor Asa Hutchinson:I think governors can. I mean, my approach is to spend 80 percent of my time on things that matter to 100 percent of the people of Kentucky or the American people. Those are things like your job and whether you make enough to support your family, your next doctor's appointment for yourself, your parents or your kids, the roads and bridges you drive, the school you drop your kids off at or whether you feel safe in your community. Those aren't bipartisan issues. They're nonpartisan issues. I'm working with both of these governors on building bridges, actual bridges between our states. You know, infrastructure is something that's good for everyone that everyone benefits from.

32:12Governor Asa Hutchinson:And maybe if we all spend 80 percent of our time on things that matter to 100 percent of the American people, we get a lot more done.

32:20Margaret Brennan:Governors, thank you for having this conversation today. Thank you very much. It's good to have you all We are at the same table.

32:25Governor Asa Hutchinson:A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story. But right now, you probably need more. On Up First from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes. Because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big, crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the Up First podcast from NPR. I'm back. I'm really back.

32:51Governor Larry Hogan:School Spirits returns.

32:53Governor Asa Hutchinson:Why am I here?

32:54Governor Larry Hogan:I'm not dead, right?

32:55Governor Asa Hutchinson:This place is an absolute death trap.

32:58Governor Larry Hogan:We need to get out of here now. School Spirits new season now streaming only on Paramount+.