Extended Interview: America's Mayors Panel

15:09Mayor Michelle Wu:Well, I don't know, a few observations in reaction to that. I mean, first, it's really important to point out that we have enforced immigration laws in this country for over a century. ICE has been around for two decades. There was even a previous Trump administration. And in none of those times did you see this level of chaos in our cities. I understand in the previous Trump administration there was controversy about things at the border. But I'm talking about all the, you know, a thousand miles from the border. Internal importance. In places like Minneapolis. us. So we can look back to previous eras of normality and appreciate that there are ways to competently enforce immigration laws in this country.

15:54Mayor Michelle Wu:And I think that's what we're kind of asking for is that sort of pivot back to a new strategy that may be an old strategy. And I think we all accept that this administration prioritizes a higher level of enforcement. But what we're seeing in the conflicts in the streets of Minneapolis is just obviously unacceptable. And we're still sort of reeling from what happened last Saturday. And, you know, we're generally encouraged that the administration seems to be exploring that pivot, you know, and of course we understand it takes time to sort of get the right personnel in place and make the policies.

16:30So, I mean, we're giving them that space, but what was happening in Minneapolis that kind

16:35Mayor Michelle Wu:of culminated in the second death of a protester last Saturday is obviously something that we would all fear to happen in our cities and and we we fear that that kind of chaos was starting to potentially creep around the country. I think the other thing I want to observe though is that mayors are certainly caught in a little bit of an impossible situation because you know we take these roles with our chief obligation being the protection of our residents and we're even given a police department, people with guns to aid us in that pursuit. But there is a thing called the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution.

17:11Mayor Michelle Wu:And when the federal government and federal law enforcement comes into your city, we are fully subservient to that in the eyes of the law. And we also believe in the rule of law. So we get caught kind of in the middle of these tensions. And we need a federal government who will use discretion and restraint with that power. And And that has mostly worked for the last 250 years. So I think we just need to remind everybody that this is possible. And I think you see mayors maybe messaging some of that to our residents, some of it to Congress, some of it to the administration, just trying to find a happy medium for everybody where we can coexist with all of these inherent tensions that, of course, have always existed.

17:51Mayor Michelle Wu:And we have largely been able to manage.

17:54Margaret Brennan:But that's why I think it's so interesting to talk to you all as mayors, because you actually have to deal with these people day to day and secure their safety, as you said, but also, you know, remain compliant. In Oklahoma, it looks like the Highway Patrol works with ICE to conduct sting. So you do have some working together of state and federal. Yeah, I mean, it's a state agency, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.

18:17Mayor Michelle Wu:That is not our police department.

18:18Margaret Brennan:Right. But when you see that working together, is it smooth? Are there tensions now because of what just happened in the past few weeks? Like, are people questioning whether these policies should stay?

18:33Mayor Michelle Wu:Well, I mean, let me differentiate and make it clear.

18:36Margaret Brennan:Do people look at Minneapolis and say that could happen here?

18:38Mayor Michelle Wu:Well, of course, I'm sure every mayor in America here in D.C. was feeling that way. And again, not because any of us think that there shouldn't be immigration enforcement. I mean, this is not the question. It's just how is it managed? I mean, we have some mayor colleagues that were former police chiefs, for example, have really great expertise in law enforcement. We're all amateurs, right? But these are people who did this for a living. And they're telling us, they look at these videos and they see police tactics that haven't been utilized anywhere in 30 years in a local law enforcement agency.

19:12Mayor Michelle Wu:That these are not the cutting edge techniques of law enforcement that we have been using, our police departments have been using for the last quarter century to build trust with our communities. And so that's what's, it's not the, we're not really arguing about whether this country should enforce immigration. Right. Everybody believes that. I mean, not everybody, but the broad swath of the American public does. But what we are arguing about is police tactics and strategies and managing engagement with residents on the street. You know, we have built so much trust in these last few years and worked really hard at that.

19:49Mayor Michelle Wu:And obviously this whole situation has threatened to erode that trust.

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20:53Mayor Eric Adams:ABC and stream on Hulu.

20:57Margaret Brennan:Mayor Lucas, I want to come to you on this idea of how the federal government is trying to implement immigration in your city, because we checked and I believe you have a similar experience out in Oklahoma, too, where the federal government's looking to turn industrial warehouses into large scale detention facilities for up to 10 ,000 people. That has caused some friction in Kansas City. You have tried to change things. you passed a city ordinance to combat it. Can you actually stop the federal government from doing it?

21:27Mayor Karen Bass:You know, I think there's a substantial question to it. The people of Kansas City have asked us to make sure, though, that we stand up for, in this situation, simple zoning, that we make sure that we share what is the viewpoint of the people of Kansas City. There absolutely is a supremacy clause. There's also a Tenth Amendment. And so in our view, that is, which is reserved to the states, which includes local zoning, local police powers, particularly where private contractors are in the transaction with the city, we have the opportunity to engage. There's been a long fight near us in Leavenworth, Kansas, you know, for a prison and a military base, where they've also managed to reject the placement of a federal facility working through a private enterprise.

22:07Mayor Karen Bass:So we wanted to make clear not only that people largely didn't want a 10 ,000 person detention facility near them, but also that they have to go through things like zoning a special use permit, it sounds in some way boring. It is core to what government is. But I think taking us from perhaps the political issue, there's the simple one, which is in all of our communities, we want to make sure people are treated humanely. Converting a gigantic distribution facility next to railroad tracks and all of that into a warehouse for 10 ,000 people for which it was never designed is not right. And it is fundamentally something that is inhumane and inhospitable, at least to the senses that we have in Kansas City.

22:48Mayor Karen Bass:And I would submit to you most American cities. So whether it is converting giant distribution facilities into mass detention warehouses, whether it's alligator Alcatraz in Florida or anything under the sun, I think you are seeing communities say we want to make sure that if there will be detention, if there will be enforcement, it is consistent with constitutional principles.

23:09Margaret Brennan:Can you stop it? Do you know yet?

23:10Mayor Karen Bass:You know, I think that probably that'd be a federal district court determination. I have seen there have been many zoning battles over the years about what can be done. I think the fact that you mainly have private enterprises that are looking to build these then lease to the government creates some level of a question.

23:25Margaret Brennan:And just on you, Mayor, quickly, I saw that the owners of the warehouse are now trying to not sell the property to Homeland Security. Is this because people just don't want it in their backyard? Well, yeah.

23:38Mayor Michelle Wu:I mean, this is actually, I think this whole question is interesting because it's actually where we can find a lot of unity. It's a land use question. It's not a political question or even an immigration question. Well, for some people it is, right? Yeah, I mean, maybe, but also you can be for a very aggressive approach from ICE and not want to live next to a detention center, right? So it becomes an IMBIE issue. Yeah, not in my backyard. And we also have a fundamental belief always in local control and the belief that if there's a land use question, it should be adjudicated at the local level.

24:08Mayor Michelle Wu:There should be hearings and people should be able to talk and there should be votes. And, you know, when the federal government, however, historically acquires land in a city because of the supremacy clause, they don't ask for a thing. They don't ask for a zoning approval. They don't ask for a building permit. They just do it. And that's the tension inherent here. But it's kind of easy for mayors to set aside the political dynamic here and just say, hey, that's a high impact use, a detention center. We have a special permit requirement for that. We would really like to go through a process, take that through a process.

24:39Mayor Michelle Wu:And so, yeah, Kansas City passed a resolution to try and create what may ultimately be an adjudicated flashpoint over that question. In our situation in Oklahoma City, the facility that was proposed, now the owners are no longer engaging with the EHS over that conversation. But we'll see where all that goes.

24:59Margaret Brennan:And before we leave the topic of immigration, Mayor Higgins, nearly 7 % of Florida is undocumented, according to Pew. In Miami, the police cooperate with ICE, but you, during your campaign, were very critical of that decision to cooperate. Can you change the policy without the governor being on board?

25:19Mayor Francis Suarez:We were. The governor issued a requirement that local municipalities cooperate with ICE. And many municipalities, including the city of Miami, before I became mayor, signed that agreement. It is very difficult to unwind. it would take a vote of our city commission to do so. So obviously as mayor, I intend to comply with the law. And so what we have done in our 1 ,500-person police department is we have trained three individuals, should ICE call, that are able to answer that call and work with them. Obviously, we're going to comply with the law, but we are not going to help beyond that. Because in my community in South Florida, we are the most affected.

26:03Mayor Francis Suarez:ICE and its tactics have been in my community for over a year. They have been causing great fear and terror in our residents. I cannot go anywhere without meeting someone, my brother, my uncle, my sister, Alligator Alcatraz. No sabemos dónde está. We don't know where they have been taken. And that has been going on for months. It is inhumane. It is cruel. I'm a Catholic. I can barely grapple with the lack of humanity around all this. And then what we have, very differently from any other community, in Miami-Dade County, which we are part of, approximately 15 % of our population has TPS. So you're talking— Temporary protected status.

26:50Mayor Francis Suarez:Temporary protected status. We're talking about between 250 ,000 and 300 ,000 individuals that have slowly but surely, as they've lost status, become overnight illegals in the eyes of the federal government. And this enforcement in our Nicaraguan community, our Hondureño community, our Venezuelan community, has driven many people into hiding. Children are not going to school. And obviously ICE is deporting them. Tuesday night, we face a very, very dire situation. Our Haitian community loses its access to TPS at midnight. 20 % of TPS recipients with Haitian heritage work in health care. So on Wednesday, we are talking about nursing homes, home health care aides, hospitals, nurses, physician aides.

27:39Mayor Francis Suarez:All of them are going to be out of a job when they wake up on Wednesday morning.

27:43Margaret Brennan:Because their legal pathway and status is going to be revoked, and suddenly they become...

27:49Mayor Francis Suarez:Yes, unnecessarily. Haiti is not safe. Venezuela is not safe. TPS should be extended immediately for Venezuelans. It was erased with a stroke of a pen. It could be put in place with a stroke of a pen. And TPS for Haitian immigrants should absolutely positively be extended. Our economy is at stake and our humanity is at stake.

28:12Margaret Brennan:We're going to watch that developing story. We've been talking about it here on Face the Nation. I want to quickly get to you all on one of the big drain on resources that we've been seeing, but also possibly a jobs boom, and that's in the tech space, particularly with these data centers that are being built. Out in Arizona, of course, taxpayers at the national level have funded this huge computer chip investment that's happening out in Arizona. How do you balance technological innovation and maintaining access to water and making energy affordable? How do you do that?

28:44Mayor Michelle Wu:Well, we do it collaboratively with our energy supplier. You know, one thing about Arizona, we're really fortunate. We have TSMC, who's the largest semiconductor manufacturer in the world, in Phoenix. And so that ripple effect with that manufacturer has caused a lot of great things for Arizona, especially for Mesa. We have 30 Japanese companies, Korean companies, Taiwanese companies in Mesa supplying things for the semiconductor industry. And water is a key thing. along with that. And we continue to incorporate that. We've worked with Arizona State University on their advanced technology. They just opened up a$180 million facility,$100 million worth of robots in there to teach about high tech.

29:29Mayor Michelle Wu:And that's going to bring jobs. That's going to bring affordability to the city of Mesa because then it'll allow people to have high-paying jobs and be able to meet the needs and demands of living and work. Now, did you want to get into water?

29:42Margaret Brennan:Well, you just sold me in all the good things, but you practically are going to have to figure out all the other things, too, like higher energy prices. And you already said it's not a water crisis, but it's a water issue.

29:55Mayor Michelle Wu:It is a water issue because I told you that we have a 100-year assured water supply in Arizona, and it's a requirement for cities to move forward with that.

30:05Margaret Brennan:Let me get to you here, Mayor Holt. Energy prices in Oklahoma up 7 % year over year. How much is the tech boom driving up the energy costs?

30:15Mayor Michelle Wu:I don't know. I think - Is it? I would love for somebody to say Oklahoma City's having a tech boom, actually.

30:22Margaret Brennan:Well, you've got data center.

30:24Mayor Michelle Wu:Well, there's some proposals - In the state. Yeah, in the state. There's some proposals coming forward to put them in the city, and I think we're still trying to figure out what we really think about that. I think we all are. And if I'd have been on this set six months ago and you'd ask me about data centers, I would, I don't know what you're talking about. This is embarrassing. But now it's like everything. It's a huge issue. It's a huge issue. We all got them coming forward with zoning proposals and the need for water and energy. I will say, and we don't have all the details at my fingertips, but part of the reason we come together is best practices.

30:59Mayor Michelle Wu:And Lansing, Michigan would be worth a Google because they recently came to an agreement with somebody opening a data center. And the mayor shared all that with us this week. And it sounded like a pretty good deal, right? So I think that's going to be, I think we're all trying to find benchmarks and try to find, okay, if we're going to do this, what should we be asking for? And the Lansing, Michigan model sounded pretty impressive. But, I mean, you know, we're all interested in jobs and investment in our cities. But obviously, we've got to make sure the cost-benefit analysis ultimately works.

31:27Margaret Brennan:And last question to you, Mayor Lucas, more than 30 AI data centers in Kansas City. I had no idea.

31:34Mayor Karen Bass:Yeah.

31:34Margaret Brennan:How are you managing that, though?

31:36Mayor Karen Bass:You know, I think it is highly controversial. So you hear about the benefits. Largely, the discussion of the benefits are the revenues. They come both to local government, obviously the companies, the tech jobs, although there aren't that many that come with each data center. The challenges are this. There aren't. Right. You're using a lot of land. You are using a lot of utility resources and you're using the grid quite a bit. And so even though you may have the best contracts long term, the question that isn't just at the city level, but really for public regulatory commissions at the state level and beyond is how much is too much?

32:09Mayor Karen Bass:How much in one community do you want to be dependent on one economic sector? And fundamentally, do you want this large scale of a use across the street from somebody's house in their neighborhood with all of those challenges?

32:21Margaret Brennan:Well, I know we'll be tracking it more on Face the Nation. Thank you all for joining us in this bipartisan fashion. This is what we do.

32:29Mayor Michelle Wu:This is marriage.

32:31Margaret Brennan:Hey, this is Washington. OK, it's great to see you guys sitting down and talking to each other and having a conversation about real issues that impact real people. Thank you all for joining us.

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