Extended Interview: Senator Bill Cassidy

18:53Margaret Brennan:We're four months until midterms. You've got six months left. Is health care your top priority? So I've got so many things because I'm going to run through the tape. But right now we're working on Social Security. Social Security is insolvent, going insolvent. And when that happens, there will be a cut of 22 % to 25 % in someone's benefits. if we follow the current law. I've been working on a plan for about six years. I am still working on that plan and I want to bring it to completion. How do you make health care more affordable? Second thing, in our help committee of which I'm the chairman, we're working on price transparency.

19:28Wouldn't it be great if a mom, daughter has an earache, could say, hey Siri, where is the most affordable urgent care center near me? Oh this one's 50 and that one's 500 dollars and so she goes to the one that's 50. Let's give her the tool of price transparency so that she can make the best decision for her family's health but also for her pocketbook.

19:51Margaret Brennan:From the vendor not the insurance company. From the vendor, well both the vendor and the insurance company would have to publish what they are either charging or being paid and it actually works where you need both. But in this case there's people out there in the private sector creating these apps that take this information and would make it available for that mom who's looking for the best price for her daughter's earache. And so how do we bring health care, make it more affordable? One way is to give people the power of price transparency. By the way, I just got my renewal from OptumRx for a prescription,$50.

20:29I'm thinking,$50? It's never cost me that much. I go on to, I think, GoodRx or Mark Cuban's site. It's$7. The power of price transparency can make a meaningful difference. Lastly, or last thing I'll say, I'm working on something regarding dyslexia. 20 % of us, of we, have dyslexia. Where normally, you know, kind of how you read kind of tracks how smart you are, your IQ. Here, you can be a really bright child, but you can't read. And that destroys someone's self-esteem. Statistically, if they don't overcome, they're more likely to end up in jail. because illiteracy is such a major reason. So we've been working, and my daughter has dyslexia.

21:13We have been working on a solution for this. I'd like to bring that solution to completion before I finish. How do we make it so that these children are identified and hopefully set it up where they'll have the resources to accommodate their dyslexia?

21:29Margaret Brennan:Let me ask you about that. You said your daughter's dyslexic. Your wife, who's a breast surgeon, actually set up a school, as I understand it, to help those with learning differences. And you're working on this legislation you just said. It would make funds from the federal government available for literacy and early screening for dyslexia. Why does that need to happen at the federal level, not the state? Well, one, it's not happening in the states. There are some states that have actually put in screening programs in the first and second grade. But if the federal government kind of puts a little bit of oomph behind it, it's going to happen.

22:00And if you look at our reading scores, they've not really moved. Reading scores across the nation are kind of anchored. It makes sense. If 20 % of the children learn to read differently and we are not accommodating the difference in how they learn to read, then they're going to be stuck and we lose that social capital. We are about life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. If someone cannot read, if they cannot be accommodated and learn to read, we just snuff that out and we need to enhance it.

22:31Margaret Brennan:Well, the Trump administration is trying to dismantle the education department, though. They would say it differently. They would say that they are transferring portions of the Department of Education, maybe dismantling, but still preserving the function. And pushing it over HHS. By putting it in other agencies. And so we can argue about that. And some I agree with and some I don't. But in terms of dyslexia, we should be able to accomplish this. And we should. 20 % of us are dyslexic. Some overcome, but some do not. And, of course, I have a vested interest. My wife, as you mentioned, CEO of three public charter schools for children with dyslexia, starting a fourth in the outskirts of New Orleans.

23:08And you speak to the children. No, to the moms of the children. My child couldn't read, hated to go to school, cried every day. And now they're going to Purdue on an engineering scholarship.

23:19Margaret Brennan:Wow. Yeah. Whoa. And so that's the difference you can make if you identify and you accommodate. You take someone who's crying and perhaps destined for a poor self-esteem and a sense of failure into great careers. President Trump said a president of the United States should not have learning disabilities. And he actually criticized Governor Newsom of California for his disclosure that he was dyslexic. He referred to him as dumb. And he said it was a mental disorder. What does language like that do to younger generations? Well, one, it's just, of course it's harmful. You should not insult people.

23:57We should really seek to encourage other people. Scripture speaks of a gift of encouragement. We should have a gift of encouragement, number one. Number two, if you look at some of the people who are dyslexic, who are really bright, they just learn to think differently. Charles Schwab self-describes himself as dyslexic. Charles Schwab is a pretty smart guy. And he's thought differently. And so the idea is most of us learn to read and we learn in a very linear fashion. That dyslexic learns to read differently. And learning to read differently opens their minds up to a different way of approaching things.

24:33Richard Branson self-describes as a dyslexic. Richard Branson's a pretty. Toby Cosgrove, former CEO, cardiovascular surgeon, former CEO of Cleveland Clinic. David Bowies, the famous lawyer. So if you learn to read differently, it is a strength sometimes, oftentimes. By the way, they also learn resilience. Because they've got to work harder, they actually end up doing better at the task that life comes before them. It may even be a qualification to be dyslexic.

25:04Margaret Brennan:I want to come back to some of these things with learning differences and health challenges. But let's come back to the price people pay these days for health care. When you were on the Senate floor recently, you were banging your hands down. You were yelling that the president needs to get engaged. Your party controls the White House. Your party controls the Capitol. Why haven't they done anything to deal with what you are describing as really a health care crisis in terms of affordability? If you fully elaborate on what I said, Margaret, is that we as Republicans and Democrats have to come together.

25:38You need 60 votes to get something done. But practically, you've got to be unified as a country. Well, first you've got to try.

25:45Margaret Brennan:You've got to try. The party hasn't put forward a plan. Well, I'm not going to blame that on the president. Congress has a role, and the president needs to collaborate, but Congress has a role. And by the way, that's what I'm attempting to do. And so everything's not Donald Trump's fault. But I do say that if the president gets engaged, it gives a real push. And I would argue that our number one priority should be that family sitting around the kitchen table, looking at their bills and wondering how they're going to pay them. And one of those big items is health care. And if we can do something positive for that, we absolutely should.

26:19And by the way, the plan I propose takes principles that the president has embraced and makes them and kind of puts them into practice, if you will. Giving cash. What's that?

26:29Margaret Brennan:Giving cash to individuals rather than directly to insurance companies. Is that what you're talking about? Yes. If you take somebody, a family owner, getting insurance to their employer, and if you give them for a family of four up to$2 ,000, money in their pocket, to pay that out of pocket, to pay that out of pocket, it actually benefits the family immediately. You can do that, and we can have that set up in a relatively short period of time. That would help that family. Do you have any pledge from leadership to move that forward? No, but partly you just got to make people aware of it, and partly the American people have to speak to our leadership.

27:02Margaret Brennan:And that's what November's about? That's what November's about. Okay. Let me ask you about your role on this powerful committee overseeing health policy. You were recently raised in concern that the World Cup and some of these other mass gatherings happening in the United States run the risk of transmission at mass scale of some of these diseases right now. America may soon lose its measles elimination status because of the outbreaks happening on our soil. Of course, everyone's watching what's happening in the Congo with Ebola. Given the cuts to personnel, given the concern you have about what's happening inside these institutions, is American public health up to dealing with this level of risk?

27:48Well, we would, one, we don't know the complete effort that's being taken. You don't. The Center for Disease Control, for example, has many things going on at any one moment that no one person knows unless you're directly involved in the agency. And so let me just say that. And I have no doubt that there is a commitment to making sure that there is not a widespread dissemination of disease at one of these mass events. I'll say that as well. We do see the consequences, though, of ignoring the benefits that things like vaccines brings for public health. And if you will, I think what you're going after is that this administration, parts of it, have tried to downplay the importance of immunization, The Secretary of War, Hegseth, recently did away with the flu mandate, and then there was a big outbreak of flu in one of their military outfits.

28:42If you ignore history, history doesn't necessarily repeat, but it has a rhythm. And we can look back in World War I, where the Spanish flu went through, decimating armies, But one of the reasons the Germans collapsed is because so many people died from Spanish flu that they had and didn't have manpower to fulfill that their lines began to collapse. Combat readiness means preventing disease. And if you want to be combat ready, you don't want everybody out with the flu.

29:11Margaret Brennan:But he was following the Secretary of Health and Human Services push for medical freedom. So if you see that, you can see we have a mutual obligation. When our founding fathers pledge their life, their fortune, and their sacred honor, there is a sense that we all have to, one, achieve, to achieve those inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There has to be also a spirit of sacrifice among everyone else. And so, if we're speaking about how to protect others, obviously, more people being immunized makes it less likely that someone else gets ill. There was a woman in Canada who spontaneously aborted her child because she was exposed to someone who had not been immunized.

29:57And she got the disease that the person was not vaccinated for and her child died. Now, there is a consequence to not obeying the science of immunization. And one is children dying from measles, as has occurred, and thousands getting sick with many in the hospital. So I would argue, unfortunately, facts can be a tough, tough teacher. Protect yourself. Talk to your doctor. But society has a vested interest, as we all do, and we all be unprotected.

30:30Margaret Brennan:At DSW, we ask the important questions, like, what shoes are you going to wear? Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season, or just planning the ultimate vacay, The right shoes can make or break an RSVP. So own the moment. You've got big plans and we've got just the shoes. At the perfect price, of course. Get ready to get ready with Designer Shoe Warehouse. Head to your DSW store or DSW.com today and let us surprise you. There's a lot going on right now. Mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air. I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media.

31:14Margaret Brennan:Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here? And maybe how to head them off at the pass? That's On the Media's specialty. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts. Well, we now have a longtime vaccine skeptic who is running HHS. Who, in private practice, sued vaccine makers. How much harm has he done or do you believe that he has restored trust in public health as you thought he might do? Well, he has not restored trust in public health and you can see the administration, if you believe the press accounts, are trying to limit his range of activity. Polling shows that the American people understand that vaccines are important.

31:57And for someone to be out there saying that they're not goes against their experience. And again, if you look at the measles outbreak in which thousands of kids got measles, with the consequences of that. Clearly, the American people understand immunization is important. So I think you can see the administration responding to the American people's awareness that folks should be vaccinated.

32:20Margaret Brennan:But we looked at the vaccination rates, which have plummeted. There is not a single county or parish in Louisiana where kindergarten rates meet herd immunity protection levels for measles, meaning it could still be transmitted. Why do you think that is happening, particularly in red states like yours? Well. As Kennedy says, it's not his fault this predated him, even though he had been working on the issue. Yeah. So leaving that aside, we can look back two things. One, people have not seen that illness. They've not seen illnesses. So if you've not been exposed to something, sometimes it's a little bit harder to imagine that it can occur to you.

32:58When I went to LSU, there was a gentleman, Tom Keister. He had polio, quadriplegic. I drove him to work every day for three years. I sat next to a man who was a quadriplegic because of a disease that could now be prevented by vaccines. When you have that experience, when as a physician, I had patients dying from diseases that had they been immunized, they would be alive, healthy, and whole, then you have a life experience which is different. But let's be fair to our fellow Americans. If you've never seen a case of, if you've never had somebody who's had a child who's deeply mentally retarded because the mama was exposed to a disease while the child was in utero, you may not be able to relate to it.

33:49What we're going to find, though, is that people see these terrible events. When they see children die, a woman abort, perhaps a child unfortunately born mentally retarded, then they will have greater understanding. Facts can be a tough teacher, but they do teach.

34:07Margaret Brennan:Do you see Secretary Kennedy learning from those facts? Is he open to those facts? He and I have had multiple conversations, text messages going back and forth and emails, and he seems pretty dug in on his positions. And whatever you bring to the table, for some reason, is not adequate. So I don't see him changing his mind. Do you think he's going to still be here after you leave in January? He serves at the president's pleasure. And so I can't answer that. Well, I know that you have this oversight role. You've taken it seriously. You've called forward some of these former CDC officials to share with you what's happening inside public health.

34:49Margaret Brennan:Secretary of Kennedy went on television and made false claims about the MMR vaccine, even claiming there were fetal parts in it. I mean, you had CDC officials saying that the secretary is out there in the middle of a measles epidemic telling people false information. Why isn't that disqualifying for the job? Well, first, he's already in the job. And so, again, he serves the president's pleasure. And you think the president is now aware that this is a problem? The polling, just what I read in the paper. the White House has seen polling that shows the American people rightly understand that immunization is important.

35:27And they see these measles outbreaks and they understand that folks under that the American people, whoa, we're not getting immunized. And now we have children dying from measles. We have people in the hospital because of measles. We have schools that can't open because of measles. And so so the administration clearly has gotten off the anti-vaccine message into something more positive. By the way, let's give the secretary credit. He is very much into ultra-processed foods. If that's where he stayed, our country would be really much better off. But the concept that immunizations somehow are bad has been clearly disproven by life experience because what's happening is people getting sick, in some cases dying.

36:11And the administration clearly has moved away from that.

36:15Margaret Brennan:Well, there's no Senate-confirmed surgeon general, No Senate confirmed CDC director. There hasn't been for nine months now. No Senate confirmed FDA chief. 13 of the 27 NIH centers are currently run by acting directors. Is this a problem? Is this something you want to move through by the time you leave? Clearly, it is a problem, if you will, that will reflect a wider problem at HHS. That just goes without saying. Lack of stability is a problem. But there are people nominated for some of these positions. We will process them in this committee, the committee I'm chair of, the help committee. We're in the help committee room.

36:53As soon as we get their paperwork. That's something we just have to have. There's a process you go through. But I've met with the nominee for the Surgeon General, and I met with the nominee for CDC director, and very favorably impressed. And so I imagine they will, I can't speak for everybody, but I imagine they will be approved. And so progress is being made. But you're right. To be this far into an administration with that much turnover is not a good thing. And going back, our goal to be, my goal, our goal to be, should be to serve the American people. and you better serve them in terms of public health with stability and with an acknowledgement of that which is actually true.

37:33And in this case, immunizations work.

37:36Margaret Brennan:Well, I mean, the current CDC autism and vaccines page has a heading that says vaccines do not cause autism very clearly, but there's an asterisk next to it. And it says it's up there due to an agreement with you, the chair of the committee. You go to lower down on the page and there are some confusing things said there, including that there's no scientific foundation to rule out a linkage. Do you think there will be strong oversight after January? Do statements like that disappear? I cannot tell you that it's going to disappear. Excuse me. I can tell you that that broke an agreement that I had with the Secretary, that that was not supposed to happen.

38:20So once you lose trust in somebody, you're not quite sure what the trust is going forward. In fact, you don't trust anything. It should go away because the evidence is that that is not the case. That is a prejudice being brought. And by the way, if you build public health upon a foundation of lies, then you're going to have the absence of adequate public health. You need to build everything in life on truth. I go back to being a doctor. You've got to search for the truth and use the truth for your solutions. That sounds kind of, oh my gosh. No, that's the only way you make the correct diagnosis and the correct.

38:58This is not true. And there'll be a consequence of it. And that consequence, unfortunately, will be borne by those who actually are influenced by it. I will say, except for news anchors, very few people read the CDC website. And so I'm not sure how much influence that has, how much negative influence that has.

39:16Margaret Brennan:But the message is from the president of the United States' own social media account. Oh, I get that. He linked the MMR vaccine. I totally get that. And Tylenol to autism. I totally get that. And that's wrong. Isn't there damage that's done? Well, I don't, again, people have sensory overload, so I'm not sure how much that does, but that's false. It is wrong. And if you build a position based upon lies, upon falsehoods, that position cannot stand. I am a doctor searching for truth, both for the diagnosis of the problem and how do you cure it. In this case, autism is, oh my gosh, doesn't our heart go out for those parents who have autism?

39:53But putting them on a guilt trip because they gave their child a Tylenol or they took Tylenol when they were pregnant is not the answer. You don't make that mom guilty. What you do is you invest those resources into finding the true answer. Actually help the child. Don't just fear monger.

40:09Margaret Brennan:Can they trust anything that comes out from the administration on autism? At this point, well, anything. Anything is a pretty broad term. There's a lot of people at the NIH. If you include that as part of the administration, then you are actually kind of encompassing more in terms. And there's a lot of people in the administration who are scientists, who are doctors, who have studied this, who understand kind of how complex the issue is and how ridiculous that is. So I wouldn't. Anything's a pretty broad term. You said that Secretary Kennedy broke promises to you. It's pretty clear. Do you think he just made those promises to win your vote, that it was just political expediency?

40:52Easy to shmise.

40:55Margaret Brennan:You hate the question of whether you regret your vote. Can you explain why you said yes? Of course. And I have before. Bobby Kennedy was going to have the ear of the president. The president seems to be fascinated with the Kennedys. So either he was going to be in a position where there are guardrails, and I did have commitments made as to kind of guardrails, or he was going to be appointed White House health czar. In which case, he would have the president's ear without the guardrails. Now, I had to make a decision. He's going to have the president's ear. Is it going to be with some sort of guardrails where there'd be a commitment to meet on a quarterly basis in which there could be regular communication, in which there would be kind of an agreement that I would have, you know, obviously as a chair, I have some role in terms of the people who assist him.

41:45Or would he be an unappointed, I should mean a non-Senate confirmed health care czar? That's kind of my choice. And I chose, you can criticize it, but I chose to have the one with the guardrails.

41:57Margaret Brennan:Do you think you reined him in? The commitment. It would have been worse? I don't, well, that is something that you cannot know. We can't go back in time and say, White House are. But we do know the president is very influenced by Bobby Kennedy. And so if that's the case, if that's the case, is it better, at least at the outset, when these decisions are being made, that there's an open line of communication, a commitment to appear on a quarterly basis with a commitment to say that to preserve this and to preserve that what was better at the time i made the decision it was better to have the guardrails you can criticize that but i think again as i'm searching for kind of the right diagnosis and the right cure you can criticize me but i'm not sure it's quite as as kind of black and white as people like to say but there have been changes as you said that that violate many of the promises made to you, including the advisory role, that panel, federal advisory panel on vaccines.

43:02Margaret Brennan:I mean, you said there are people on there who don't know anything about epidemiology. Does the damage that you think may have been done here outlast all of us? I mean, is the damage to the institutions such? No. I mean, our government has a wonderful ability. Our people, the United States is an incredible country. and our institutions have the ability to be rejuvenated in a way that is really positive. Again, I am so bullish on the United States of America and the scientists that are underpinning our efforts to help our American people to have life, liberty, and the ability to pursue happiness.

43:41They're going to bring their knowledge in a better form of communication with the American people in order they can achieve that. And I am so confident of that.

43:49Margaret Brennan:So if Dems flip the House, if Democrats win the House, Do you think RFK will be impeached? You're asking? I don't know that. I mean, I don't know what's in the mind of a Democrat. You think there's evidence enough to move on that, though? I don't know what the impeachable offense would be. I just don't know what it is. I mean, I just don't know what it is. But you don't think he should be in that job? At this point, the commitments that were made to me have been violated. When commitments are made, trust is destroyed. It's difficult to have effectiveness. By the way, I once read trust is the coin of the realm.

44:25If you lose trust, you lose everything here. And by the way, the ability to work with others is essential for our government to function. Essential. And I go back to pledging your life, your fortune, your sacred honor. There was a commitment of trust there by our founding fathers in order to make sure that folks had access to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Now, when I ask the president to work with me and Democrats and Republicans to work together in order to come up with something which is beneficial to that family sitting around the kitchen table, there's mutual trust required.

44:59It's required. And we have to capitalize, have to hope for that to achieve that purpose. If someone breaks that trust, then you kind of excuse yourself from the ability to work with others.

45:11Margaret Brennan:The head of the political action group, Make America Healthy Again, or Maha, says they poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into your primary race. This is a reliably red state, and they're spending serious money not to flip to a Democrat, but just a different Republican. They took a real focus here on you. Do you think it made a discernible difference? The chief issue, let me talk about my rights for a second. Yeah. Let me first quote a famous philosopher, James Bond in Quantum Solace. And he says, you can be judged by the strength of your enemies. To beat me, I had a governor, a state legislature, a president, cabinet officials, and members of Congress all coming at me.

45:56And they obviously succeeded. But we used to have an open primary in which 1.2 million people could vote for or against me, and they closed it to 400 ,000. Trying to distill it down to those who are least likely to vote for me. And among those people, the critical issue is, who did the president endorse? He endorsed somebody different. And so...

46:18Margaret Brennan:He openly encouraged a primary challenger. Absolutely. And so, and we know why. I voted to uphold the Constitution. The president was offended by that. But that said, it took all that effort in order to beat me. So in one way, I'm complimented. Maha, they just supported my state's economy. Because the real issue is, who did the president endorse? We can say that in retrospect. I was hoping that my record could convince even those folks who were kind of distilled down to those least likely to vote for me that they could. I was wrong. But I will note they had to close that primary because if it had been open, which anyone could vote, then they thought I would win.

46:57But we'll never know.

46:58Margaret Brennan:The advocacy group Maha Action touted the win as the Maha movement's taking its first scalp by defeating you. Yeah, that's a press release they're going to put out to try and raise money. It was a president's endorsement period, end of story. You don't think all that money and the accusation of you defending Big Pharma that they made matters. This isn't a formidable political force in the future? I don't see that. I see them as, I just don't. The issue there was who did the president endorse? And he solicited, and I'm not even sure his endorsed candidate's going to win. It looks like the person he didn't endorse may beat her, Dr.

47:42John Fleming. You think so?

47:44Margaret Brennan:You think? The polls I read. Congress someone let low is going to lose. I can't say that, but the polls are neck and neck. I'll just say that. So point being, but really it came down to the president being offended that I voted to support the Constitution in his trial. And so that was it. Let's just acknowledge it. And then you combine that with the closed partisan primary. But I don't complain about it. I don't go around saying the election was stolen. That's not the thing to do. The thing to do is these are the rules I play by them. Let's move on. So even though in your state the vaccine hesitancy is measurably there, even though some of these health issues have come up during the campaign, you do not think that was a factor?

48:25Margaret Brennan:or it just wasn't the deciding one? Not at all. By the way, one thing that I have going for me is that I am a physician and people know that physicians are trying to find the truth of a situation. And isn't that true? And by the way, I demonstrate that. And I will explain my reasoning to get to a decision. There are Democrats who are changing to become Republicans or no party in order to vote for me. I'm incredibly honored by that. Incredibly honored. Because they saw, I may disagree with him on this or that, but I absolutely agree with him on the fact that he is trying to find out what the problems are in our society and trying to find the true way to address it.

49:06And so I'm honored that people did that. Obviously it wasn't enough, but I'll go back. They had to close the primary in order to beat me.

49:15Margaret Brennan:So do you think that you have a career in public health after this? I don't know quite what I'm going to do, but it's a big world out there. Remember the last episode of Calvin and Hobbes? I don't. Oh my gosh, you got to look it up. But anyway, in Calvin and Hobbes, I think Calvin and Hobbes are talking to each other, and what are you going to do next? And he goes, in the middle frame says, I'm not quite sure, but I do know this. And the last frame was just a blank whiteboard. The fact is that you can write that out. So my future and my wife, we will figure that out. I'll support her as she works for dyslexia.

49:50I'll continue to try, if you will, to do my version of pledging life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. My life, my fortune, and my sacred honor for others and myself to achieve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness because that gives me joy. That actually gives me joy. So I will figure out how that is, but it's going to be an exciting next chapter.

50:14Margaret Brennan:So what do you think your single biggest accomplishment in Congress has been? My biggest single accomplishment is to show that if you take on a difficult problem and you're willing to really stick to it, you can find an answer. And we say our problems are so big, but there's things, my social security proposal we've been working on for six or eight years. Yeah. And so but those serious things aren't getting done here. Well, it takes a while both to prepare the American people for how you're going to solve it, but also to bring people along with you. And so folks want to snap their finger like three minute rice and three minutes later have their rice.

50:51It takes time to come up with the solutions, to listen to the stakeholders, to go out and talk to people and to find out the answer. Now, my strength, if you will, is to show you can solve big issues. You just got to work at it. And one thing I do is I work. I work really hard. And so No Surprises Act, which prevents surprise medical billings for the American family, began to bring in price transparency. I'm told it prevents a million, a million surprise medical bills per month. That's my bill. And we started working on it two years in advance. And I said to my team, this isn't quite the issue, but it's going to be the issue.

51:28I got Democrats and Republicans. Maggie Hassan was my chief Democrat. We worked together on a bipartisan basis, talking to stakeholders, and then at the end, we're able to bring it together. It was hard, but it was big. And that is something that's going to help that family sitting at the kitchen table, helping them now. You can solve big problems. You just got to look for the truth in terms of the diagnosis and the cure, and you got to work hard.

51:55Margaret Brennan:And you need leaders. You need leaders. And you need a leader who's willing to pledge life, liberty, and life, the fortune and sacred honor. And that's what I think we should all be like, be about, if you're going to be an elected leader. Who is the best Republican to lead the country right now in 2028? You've been reflecting a lot. I've seen you say, we need leaders who are steady, not erratic, thoughtful, not impulsive, lower the temperature rather than inflame division. It's clear who you're talking about. So I can't tell you who's going to be the best person in 2028 because part of that choice will be the refining process of the electoral process.

52:37We cannot get ahead of the American voter. You can trust that voter. And that voter sooner or later is going to, they'll make a mistake every now and then. I think they made a mistake in my race. But that said, over the long haul, the American voter, you can trust their wisdom. And I think that process of who's going to lead us in 2028 will be decided by voters. And that's the right thing. But you see anyone emerging as embodying the things that you say leaders should. There's there's the people we speak of, but it should be something which is able to be demonstrated to the American people. You can you can be the perfect person in the world.

53:16but unless you can communicate it to the American people and reassure them that, my gosh, you stand up there. You're the guy looking for truth. You're the guy who is trying to bring solutions. You're the guy who's going to work hard. You're the guy pledging your life, your fortune, your sacred honor. That's the person who should be our next president. And whoever can communicate that to the American people should be our next president.

53:42Margaret Brennan:You spent a lot of time with the vice president last night. I did spend a lot of time with the vice president, and obviously he's one of the names being touted. And he will have the chance to present his case to the American people. I know we're out of time. I wanted to quickly ask you, though. Secretary Rubio recently said that the State Department needs to take back control of some of the vaccines that are distributed overseas, where Secretary Kennedy had been exerting some influence. Do you think some of this is factored in to the Ebola outbreak or the lack of preparedness overseas, the fact that this vaccine skepticism has even touched programs within the State Department?

54:25Well, there's not really a... First, you got a lot in there. First, I think I applaud the... I strongly objected to what Bobby did with immunizations overseas. That is a form of soft power. We are in a global geopolitical competition with China. One thing that has helped us tremendously in sub-Saharan Africa is the PEPFAR program and immunization programs in which people there thank the United States and are predisposed to work with us. That is soft power. It is better than sending troops. It's cheaper than sending troops. It's a humane thing to do. And by the way, it's in the U.S. interest. Bobby was opposed to it because he had some foolish notion about the dangers of vaccines.

55:08But instead we see, Mo, no, people dying of disease. Next, there's not a vaccine for Ebola. But it's fair to say that the infrastructure we had helped create in Africa had been damaged by the changes in USAID, for example. And that probably made us less capable of responding. Now, the United States is the indispensable nation, and we can argue that it is in our self-interest to take care of our people. There are missionaries in Africa, physicians for example, with their families who are exposed to Ebola at risk of getting sick. And so I'm a guy who says, let's prevent disease. It's in our self-interest to project our power in a positive way as opposed to sending troops.

56:01It's cheaper. It's also humane. It's consistent with our values. That's who I am. I'm a physician. Bobby felt like, I don't know, vaccines were dangerous, and so he wasn't going to do it. Rubio taking it back, I think, shows that there's a recognition that soft power is important. In this competition with China, the ability to go to a head of state in Africa and say, listen, we have helped you so much. We have a strong relationship, let's work together and this is how we can, can be effective. And I'm glad that they recognize that.

56:33Margaret Brennan:Dr. Cassidy, Senator, thank you for your time. Thank you.