President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Sen. Chris Murphy, Former Vice President Mike Pence

24:13Margaret Brennan:How do you convince the public that Democrats are telling the truth now?

24:20Chris Murphy:Yeah, listen, I think Democrats do have to be honest about the mistakes that we made in 2024. Obviously, in retrospect, Joe Biden should have stepped away from that race. We should have had an open contest. And in this book, I frankly talk about how tribal our politics have become, how Republicans are willing to excuse Donald Trump's corruption because their entire identity structure is built around their party. And I think that happens on the Democratic side as well, where we are willing to look the other way too often at mistakes that our own party leaders are making. And this book says that that's not just up to politics to fix, that we actually have to create more healthy identity structures for people outside of politics so they see their purpose through their work or through their connection to a local community.

25:09Chris Murphy:That makes our politics less tribal and maybe allows us on both sides to stand up to our party when we think they've gone wrong.

25:16Margaret Brennan:All right. Senator Murphy, we have to leave it there. Thank you for your insights today. We'll be right back with more Face the Nation.

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26:53Margaret Brennan:Welcome back to Face the Nation. We are joined now by former Vice President Mike Pence, who has a new book, What Conservatives Believe, Rediscovering the Conservative Conscience. Good morning to you, Mr. Vice President.

27:05Mike Pence:Good morning, Mara. Good to see you.

27:07Margaret Brennan:You clearly think your party needs some reminders here. And you write that Americans are confused about what it means to be a conservative. You say, for many right-wing populists, grievance dictates policy. Who or what are you thinking about there? Well, I think, look, from all of my adult life, the Republican Party has been defined by a commitment to a conservative agenda,

27:32Mike Pence:to America as leader of the free world, to limited government, free market economics, and traditional moral values, especially the right to life. And I'm proud to say that from the Reagan administration to the first Trump administration, we governed on that agenda. But I wrote what conservatives believe, because just in the last four or five years, there's been a rise of what I call the populist right that focuses more on what we're against than what we're for, focuses more on grievance than a positive conservative agenda. I mean, the conservative movement has always been battling politically with the progressive left.

28:14Mike Pence:But now there's a new threat from the populist right that would embrace policies of isolationism abroad, that would embrace big government and protectionism at home, marginalize the right to life. And as we go into this fall's elections and go into 2028, I thought it was important that we take a moment as a party and as a movement to remind ourselves what we believe.

28:38Margaret Brennan:But some of what you are describing isn't just on the fringes or within the party. It's the president of the United States who's leader of that party. And you write he has not always governed as a conservative. I understand that the president's overall approval rating is low. It is. But he still seems to have this vice grip on the neck of the Republican Party right now. So how can you revive a portion of it that that he is in opposition to? I mean, right to life was one of them, as you just detailed. You split with him very publicly on that. You think he betrayed it. You think he betrayed on, for example, spending and the way he's dealing with some of the free market issues.

29:21Mike Pence:Well, look, I think the second Trump administration has got a lot right. They got the border secured after the worst border crisis in American history. They extended those Trump-Pence tax cuts that we passed in their entirety. They've stood without apology for our cherished ally Israel and took the fight directly to Iran. But on other instances, you've seen the impact and the embrace by the president and people around him of the politics of the populist right, price control. on credit cards and pharmaceuticals, nationalization of American businesses, of course, broad-based tariffs on friend and foe alike.

30:04Mike Pence:Add to that marginalizing the right to life, doing nothing about the broad distribution of the abortion pill by mail that Joe Biden's administration made possible. And then the stops and starts on Ukraine. While they've been strong on Israel, strong with Iran, the stops and starts reflect more of the politics of the progressive left and appeasement than that time-honored conservative agenda that's defined our party at home and abroad.

30:31Margaret Brennan:Why isn't the party standing up to him then?

30:33Mike Pence:Well, look, I give the president all kinds of credit. You've got the majority in the House and the Senate. They're pretty silent. He has earned great loyalty among Republican primary voters. We saw that in Texas.

30:48Mike Pence:Primary Senate primaries. And I think it's because, look, the progressive left has been essentially in the saddle for about 100 years in this country. Ronald Reagan began the battle back. I think Republican voters truly appreciate the way that President Trump has fought back against the radical left and continues to. But I want our voters to know that there is this new push from the populist right. And as we look at the midterm elections, as we look at 2028, I think it's important that we focus on on what we're for, because not only is it a winning agenda for Republicans, Margaret, I believe it's delivered freedom and prosperity for the American people.

31:31Margaret Brennan:Well, when you say primary voters, you know that that is not necessarily all Republican voters. Certainly, you just look at the turnouts in that Texas race to speak to that. But isn't your party from the president on down with this gerrymandering push locking in the changes that will only feed into that more extreme part of the party?

31:52Mike Pence:Well, the populist. It's, you know, it's awfully hard for Democrats to throw stones when they live in glass houses on gerrymandering.

32:02Margaret Brennan:Sure, but there are states around the country that incentivize bipartisan. Right.

32:06Mike Pence:There are states around the country, though, where 40 percent of voters are Republicans and there are no Republican representatives from those states in the Congress. So you support. I've never been a fan of gerrymandering, gerrymandering. But look, I have great confidence in the American people and in Republican voters. I think if we hold the banner of American leadership on the world stage, of limited government, free market economics, of traditional values and the right to life high, I think voters will rally to our cause in these midterms. And in 2028, when we're going to decide whether the progressive left with its embrace of socialism is in the lead on the national stage or or whether a populist right that that is a form of progressive politics.

32:55Mike Pence:I mean, this is when you look at the embrace of isolationism, protectionism, nationalization of companies and marginalizing values. It's it is it's it's more and more an echo of what the left has provided. I think, as President Reagan said years ago, the Republican Party ought to offer a choice, not an echo.

33:18Margaret Brennan:But isn't the vice president J.D. Vance an echo of all of those things? If President Trump's not a conservative, is J.D. Vance one?

33:24Mike Pence:Well, look, let me say I lost count of the number of times President Trump corrected me when I said that a particular position was conservative. In fact, he said himself he he's not a conservative. He's never really claimed to be. I'm less clear about the vice president's views and his philosophy of government. But I'm very clear, as I wrote in my book, that there is this new tension within the Republican Party that will take those pieces of the agenda, the populist right agenda that President Trump has embraced, and try and make that the new direction of the Republican Party. I think that'd be bad for the Republican Party.

34:04Mike Pence:I think it'd be worse for the country that needs a vigorous, strong, conservative party committed to freedom, committed to free markets, committed to traditional values.

34:13Margaret Brennan:Talking about the midterms, you also spent a lot of time writing about character. And you say it matters. Last week, Texas Republicans voted to make, you know this is coming, Ken Paxton, their nominee. He's the current AG. He was impeached by the Republican-controlled House. Multiple charges of abuse there, including bribery. His wife, a sitting senator in that state, accused him of committing adultery and is divorcing him on, quote, biblical grounds. He was indicted in 2015 on securities fraud charges, though those charges were dropped. And the president chose him over a much more conservative, in your description, John Cornett.

34:57Margaret Brennan:Does character represent, does character of Ken Paxson represent your party? Well, I think as I write in my book, I think character, integrity to principle are enormously important

35:09Mike Pence:in the life of our movement and the life of our nation. But, you know, when I look at the Texas primary, when I look at Louisiana, Kentucky, Indiana's many state Senate races, I see it more as a reflection of the grip that President Trump has on Republican primary voters who are grateful for the way that he has stood up and fought against the radical left. You look at where the Democratic Party is today. I mean, it's amazing to see if Republicans in part have lost our way with the embrace of the populist right. Democrats have gone over the beam with embracing socialist candidates, socialist policies.

35:50Mike Pence:So you would separate yourself from Ken Paxton.

35:53Margaret Brennan:He does not represent conservative values.

35:54Mike Pence:Republican voters want to push back on that. They respect the president's views. I just want to make sure people understand that as we sort through all these elections this year, that there's a new force afoot in the Republican Party. And I think we've got to get back to those core values and principles that have always made our country and our party strong and prosperous.

36:13Margaret Brennan:Well, at Louisiana's Senator Bill Cassidy, his offense to President Trump seemed to be that vote to convict him in the second impeachment trial following the attack on the Capitol on January 6th. Does it trouble you that the president is even making primary choices based on grievances having to do from January 6th?

36:30Mike Pence:Well, I don't know precisely what the president's reasons were for weighing in in Louisiana. He tweeted pretty explicitly. The way that he did. So, you know, we haven't chatted in a while. But, yeah, I'll be honest with you. I'll never minimize what happened on January 6th. And I'll always believe, by God's grace, we did our duty that day to the seat of the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution. It's one of the reasons why this talk of a weaponization fund, Margaret, the idea of creating a fund that could compensate people who assaulted police officers and vandalized the Capitol, that day is totally unacceptable.

37:13Mike Pence:My hope is the administration will drop it, drop the idea entirely.

37:17Margaret Brennan:Do you think Senate Republicans will make them drop it because it's hard to stand up to the president, many Republicans find?

37:23Mike Pence:Well.

37:24Margaret Brennan:Because of what you just said.

37:25Mike Pence:It is.

37:25Margaret Brennan:The primaries and those midterms.

37:26Mike Pence:It is, but I've been heartened by the number of Republicans in the Senate who've spoken out against it. Look, people that assaulted police officers on January 6th and vandalized our Capitol should not get one dime of taxpayer money from that fund or anywhere else.

37:46Margaret Brennan:But I mean, even just the precedent of setting it up, should they exclude January 6th attackers, that the idea of a weaponization fund is its own thing that it bears examining. But I want to explicitly ask you about something also that happened.

38:03Mike Pence:In Washington, we don't need slush funds to settle cases. You view it as a slush fund. There was a pro-life family that was literally run over by the Biden Department of Justice that it was just a seven figure settlement for them. The DOJ can settle these issues where people have had their rights trampled on and ought to do that. I welcome that settlement greatly.

38:25Margaret Brennan:Last week at the request of the Department of Justice, a federal appeals court threw out the convictions of four members of far-right extremist group, the Oath Keepers. That was a militia involved in January 6th. Do you think that the Trump administration is deliberately whitewashing that day?

38:45Mike Pence:Well, I've certainly seen evidence of that. Particularly, I was offended on the anniversary of January 6th when the White House put out a timeline that literally blamed Capitol Hill police for the riot that took place that day. Look, I'm very confident that of the judgment of history in the years ahead about our role, about all the Republicans and Democrats who returned that day after Capitol Police secured the Capitol. And we all did our duty under the Constitution. But but there there's clearly been an effort by some to rewrite that history. But I don't expect it'll work. All right.

39:31Margaret Brennan:Mr. Vice President, thank you very much for sharing your reflections. It's good to have you here in person, too.

39:36Mike Pence:Thank you, Margaret. Appreciate it.

39:38Margaret Brennan:We'll be right back.

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40:39Margaret Brennan:World Food Program Executive Director Cindy McCain is stepping down from her post Monday. During her three years at the helm of the U.N. agency, there have been two famines. And when we spoke with her late last week from Rome, she told us we're looking potentially at several more, among many other challenges. There is this emergency response to Ebola in the Congo. That's a country that's already struggling, as I understand it, with about 27 million food insecure people. I know the U.S. State Department is pledging some help here. But what are you hearing about the situation on the ground for emergency responders like yours?

41:19Chris Murphy:It's not good. And this is it's it's hitting people in a mass way. And there's really no way to know right now how many people have been affected by this. We know that it's a rampage now with it. So what we need to do is not only be able to get in, we run logistics, we bring in supplies, we bring in people, and we do much more than that as well just in the region. But this is going to take a real-world effort. This is very deadly.

41:51Margaret Brennan:You said there's a rampage of Ebola. I mean, are you able to keep your workers on the ground?

41:59Chris Murphy:Our workers are on the ground, but one of my big projects, a large reason of what we planned today, was taking care of our own people, the duty of care. And that comes into play because right now there's no adequate facility set up to handle that. And so we're looking, you obviously putting together a task force and a team that will do just that to make sure that we're protected as well as, of course, anyone that is from WFP.

42:27Margaret Brennan:Well, you have been in this role at a time when there are so many hotspots, so many conflicts. And of course, the Mideast continues to be a big challenge. I understand that you still do have some operations inside of Iran. As you know, there isn't a free press on the ground able to document what's happening. What can you tell us about how civilians there are doing?

42:52Chris Murphy:Things aren't good. I mean, let's face it, when you shut the Straits of Hormuz and you've got bombings on both sides all the way up and down, people are going to not only become food insecure, but they're going to starve. It's time to end this and make sure that we can open the Straits of Hormuz because it's affecting everybody. And it will take us months to get back on track when they do open it.

43:16Margaret Brennan:Months to get back on track. Why is that? Because the ships with the food are stuck or because of the food prices? Why?

43:24Chris Murphy:Prices, availability, movement. A good example is that we do work in Afghanistan. And before what would usually take us three weeks maybe to get the food in from where it comes in from, now it takes us almost three months. And so in the meantime, women and children, which are always the first to be hit, are starving. And so this is the case with all of them. When you talk about fertilizer, when you talk about seeds, of course, and other things, they're being moved around that helps stave off hunger. It's a real problem.

43:59Margaret Brennan:Bigger picture, when you look at the destruction in the Middle East just within the past few years, How do you describe to an American at home what the longer term impact is?

44:14Chris Murphy:Well, the longer term impact, to put it very bluntly, is not good. You know, we staved off hunger in Gaza when it was finally the ceasefire held and we were able to get trucks in at scale. We're back to where we were. We can't get trucks in at scale. People are, you know, as you know, there's bombings, there's all those things. and we're looking at not just a serious situation, we're looking at possibly losing a generation of children. So in any of these countries where there's an issue, Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, Sudan, all the ones that I've been to, plus Ukraine,

44:53Chris Murphy:access and being able to get in at scale is most important and making sure that our humanitarian workers are not targets and that we respect humanitarian law, and that simply isn't happening right now. It's very dangerous to be an aid worker right now. What do you mean losing a generation of children? Well, when you talk about kids that are either not getting enough food or what they're getting is not nutritious enough, and plus there's no schools open and there's no proper housing, clean water, et cetera, medicine, et cetera, that spells disaster for a child especially. And so I'm obviously one that has, as a mother first and a grandmother, six times over.

45:37Chris Murphy:And so I see it through my mother's eyes. You know, you will do anything to feed your children, anything as a parent. And the fact that it's not happening in so many of these areas now is really alarming and very desperate.

45:53Margaret Brennan:I've heard you say, feed them now or fight them later. You draw a direct connection to national security. and radicalization. Yes.

46:03Chris Murphy:No, you're absolutely right. We believe that because when folks who are hungry can't get adequate nutrition or food, they will turn to the bad guys because food's offered there.

46:16Margaret Brennan:You recently were asked about the conservative movement and that within the conservative movement, aid, you said, has become a dirty word and being a humanitarian, useless. You're a lifelong conservative. When you describe things going this direction, that has to be hard to stomach. Why do you think this is happening and do you think it is temporary?

46:46Chris Murphy:I will say this. Obviously, that was frustration speaking to a great degree. I believe there are many, many, many good people in the United States that are more than willing to help this cause or help, you know, whatever they see fit to do for all of this. But we need more of it. And we need actionable items from not just the United States but other countries around the globe that will stand up also and help us. We can't do this alone. And we're hoping, as you know, the United States is our largest donor and we're very proud of that. But we need everybody involved in this.

47:25Margaret Brennan:America, though, has changed its policy towards aid. The Trump administration uses that phrase, trade, not aid, arguing they're going to be more efficient and more effective with the support they provide in the form of foreign assistance. When you look at the places you operate, do you think there has been an impact from the dismantling of USAID?

47:52Chris Murphy:I do. I really do. AID was an intimate part of all of these things. And of course, we relied on them to a degree as well. I wish we still had AID, but it was the choice of this administration. And so we have to work with that. I am hoping, though, that eventually we can put back some of the soft power aspects that we were able to do as well. As you know, that's a very important part of at least USAID. But again, I'm not criticizing anybody in the administration. I'm simply saying we need help.

48:31Margaret Brennan:Our full interview with Ambassador McCain is on our YouTube channel and our website and on Face the Nation's podcast platform. The Kennedy Center will soon once again be the Kennedy Center. On Friday, a federal judge ordered President Trump's name to be removed in the next two weeks, saying, quote, Congress gave the Kennedy Center its name and only Congress can change it. The judge also ruled that the Kennedy Center's board, led by President Trump's handpicked trustees, cannot move forward with its plan to close the facility in July for a multi-year renovation. President Trump expressed his frustration at the decision in a social media post and said that he had canceled involvement with the failing and unsafe to be in Kennedy Center.

49:16Margaret Brennan:It's just the latest setback for the president's effort to reimagine some of Washington's historic landmarks. His renovation of the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool and his demolition of the White House East Wing to build a ballroom are also facing legal challenges. That's it for us today. Thank you all for watching. For Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan. The senior executive producer of Face the Nation is Mary Hager-Lair, the executive producer is Anne Hsu. This broadcast was directed by Shelley Schwartz. Face the Nation originates from CBS News in Washington. For more Face the Nation, we're online at facethenation.com and on YouTube.

49:53Margaret Brennan:Face the Nation is also rebroadcast on our CBS News 24-7 streaming network at 1230 on Sundays. It's available through our Paramount Plus app.

50:03Chris Murphy:Now streaming only on Paramount Plus. Chicago, it's my home. The acclaimed series The Chi reaches its final chapter. This is The Chi.

50:13Mike Pence:Anything's possible.

50:14Chris Murphy:The Chi, the final season now streaming only on Paramount Plus.