Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Sen. Tom Cotton, Rep. Jim Himes, Sen. Chris Van Hollen

20:51Margaret Brennan:Should a free and democratic Venezuela still be a goal of the United States of America? And if so, do you hear from the administration a plan to transition to that? I think it should. Secretary Rubio wasn't. I think it should be a goal. The opposition leaders, Ms. Machado, Mr. Gonzalez, have said they think there need to be new elections. I hope the government that's right now in place in Venezuela will allow them to return along with many other exiles who have left, political exiles who have left Venezuela, and that in some period of time, it probably is not going to be days or weeks, maybe a number of months, you can have new elections in Venezuela that are free and fair.

21:26The Venezuelan people have made clear now under Nicolas Maduro that they do not want a Chavista regime governing them. They want to say in their own future, Venezuela has a long history of stable, orderly government that was friendly to the United States. We are their number one customer for oil, and we work together to help build prosperity and stability in our own backyard. I hope that we can do that again with a future government in Venezuela.

21:51Margaret Brennan:CBS is reporting that the CIA source inside the Venezuelan government helped the U.S. track Maduro's location leading up to this capture by the Army's Delta Force. The president said yesterday the U.S. should not pay out that$50 million bounty that was on the head of Maduro. Does that mean that the CIA asset inside still works for us? Well, I have no comment on CIA sources or methods in Venezuela or elsewhere. But they won't be receiving the$50 million reward? I'll simply say that the CIA's amazing work here that has instilled such confidence in the president is a reminder, not just to Nicolas Maduro's cronies in Venezuela, but other bad guys all around the world, that we have very good insights into what they're doing and what they're up to.

22:37Margaret Brennan:So when the president says we will run Venezuela, you are confident that there are actual American assets helping to do that? Is that how I should interpret that? We have very good insight into Venezuela and other adversaries, foreign nations and terrorist groups around the world. Why was China there? That's why the president has such confidence in John Ratcliffe and the CIA. Well, China was trying to provide support to Venezuela during a U.S. pressure campaign. But where were they when Delta Force went in and got Nicolas Maduro? They were nowhere to be found. And frankly, that's the same thing you saw in June with China and Russia in Iran.

23:14We struck Iran. China and Russia did nothing. They stood idly by. That's a reminder that the United States is still the world's dominant superpower. Our friends are very happy today. Our enemies are very worried.

23:25Margaret Brennan:But the person running the country, Delcey Rodriguez, spoke yesterday with Russia's top diplomat. They are in contact with Russia. The defense minister has deep, deep ties to Russia. Is there a U.S.-Russia agreement here? Because there has been speculation based on testimony to Congress back in 2019 by one of Trump's top Russia advisors, Fiona Hill, that Russia has been floating a Venezuela for Ukraine deal here for some time. Is there any such deal? No, this was a U.S. operation that was designed to remove Nicolas Maduro because he was a U.S. indicted drug trafficker. And you don't get immunity from American justice when you're indicted by our courts just because you're the illegitimate communist dictator of another country.

24:09Margaret Brennan:But to be clear, that's not what I'm saying here. Is there an implication that if Russia doesn't meddle in America's backyard, South America, the United States will do something less in Ukraine, which Russia calls its backyard. No, there's no such implication. And obviously Russia doesn't need any kind of pretext to do so. It's invaded Ukraine twice over the last 11 years. There's no such implication here at all. And this is an operation the United States conducted on our own without any coordination or cooperation from other countries to advance our national interest, which is to stop the drug trafficking and stop Venezuela from cooperating with countries like Russia and China and Cuba and Iran.

24:48Okay.

24:49Margaret Brennan:I want to ask you about authorities here on the other side of the commercial break that we are going to take. So let me do that and come back. All right. Stay with us, Senator Tom Cotton. We'll be right back with more from Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Tom Cotton, plus the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Jim Himes, and Maryland Senator Chris and Holly.

25:17Margaret Brennan:We return now to our conversation with Senate Intelligence Chairman Tom Cotton, Senator Cotton. The president said Saturday that a second wave military attack had been planned. It wasn't necessary, but it could still be carried out. What would necessitate it and what would you support? Well, what I took the president to mean is that what we just did with Nicolas Maduro could be done again to other Venezuelan leaders. Several of them are indicted in U.S. courts. They're sanctioned by the United States and Canada and European Union and other nations. And if they continue down the path that Maduro took the took the nation of Venezuela, then we could conduct the same kind of operation as him.

25:56I took that as the president, urging them to change their ways or face the same consequences.

26:01Margaret Brennan:And would you support a stabilization force? What U.S. boots on the ground? As the president said, he wouldn't rule out. We already had boots on the ground as Nicolas Maduro learned the hard way. It's always the president's option to use the American military to protect American citizens and interests. And obviously we have many American citizens inside of Venezuela and we have many interests and property as well. But you know, combat and stabilization forces are there. But I don't think he plans to do that. And I think we've seen too, the president's way of war over the last, or over five years in office, if you look at four major operations, the killing of the ISIS leader in Syria, the drone strike against the Iranian terrorist mastermind in Iraq, the strike against Iran's nuclear facilities, and now this capture of Nicolas Maduro.

26:48When our vital national interests are implicated, the president takes bold, audacious, direct action. He accomplishes the mission, and then the mission is over. In some ways, this is the greatest mission of them all. I mean, as impressive as our military was in Iran in June or in its first term in Iraq and Syria against those terrorist masterminds, it's probably harder to capture someone and get out with no American loss of life than it is to kill a target or to blow up nuclear facilities.

27:17Margaret Brennan:So you are drawing a distinction there in terms of authorities and use of the military. The War Powers Act requires the president to notify Congress of the reason for committing troops within 48 hours of their deployment and requires they be removed within 60 to 90 days unless Congress authorizes it. You OK with this open ended commitment to keep forces as they are? Well, I think he has removed the troops. They were only there for a couple of hours to nab Nicholas. You're talking about the Delta Force operators who are on the ground. But there is a significant military buildup all around South America right now.

27:51Yes.

27:51Margaret Brennan:You're comfortable with that? Does Congress need any authority? I strongly support it. I mean, part of that deployment was to collect intelligence, to conduct this operation, to quarantine the oil trade that Venezuela was sending to Cuba or sending to our adversaries around the world. But it's not mission accomplished. We won't have accomplished our mission until Venezuela starts acting like a normal nation. It stops the drug trafficking and human trafficking. It kicks out Islamic radicals and Iranians and Cubans and helps the United States build a more stable, prosperous Western hemisphere. That's the ultimate goal, and that's what President Trump laid out yesterday.

28:26Margaret Brennan:So last month, the chief of staff to the president, Susie Wiles, told Vanity Fair that attacking targets on Venezuela's mainland sovereign territory would force Trump to get congressional approval. Quote, if he were to authorize some activity on land, then it's war. Then we'd need Congress. You are a co-equal branch of government. Why doesn't the president need you or your authority or your consultation? Well, I consult routinely with the president and his senior advisors. You personally? Sure. Well, as the chairman of the intelligence committee, they keep me apprised of what their plans are and what's going on.

29:02I mean, I spoke in the last 24 hours, not just with the president, but with his senior team. Every man that was on that stage with him yesterday, Marco Rubio, John Ratcliffe, Pete Hexeth, Dan Cain, Stephen Miller, the core architect of the president's policy here. I've spoken with every single one of them in the last 24 hours. Congress has acted to provide the president the resources and authority that he needs to protect the vital interests of the United States, whether it's taking out this drug trafficker, Nicolas Maduro, who had contributed to the deaths of hundreds of Arkansans and hundreds of thousands of Americans or striking Iran's nuclear facilities.

29:36He has the inherent authority under our constitution to protect these American national interests. and as the chief law enforcement officer to make sure that indicted drug traffickers face justice, whether they're indicted in Venezuela or indicted in the United States.

29:48Margaret Brennan:But by his own admission, the DEA administrator said that cocaine prices have gone up nearly 45 percent. Drug traffickers have only changed routes. Venezuela is not a fentanyl producer, not a cocaine producer. Do you really think that this has ended the drug problem? Venezuela is unique in Latin America, though, because the Maduro regime is itself in league with the drug trafficking cartels. It doesn't just tolerate them or it doesn't just fail to control its territory. It is in league and profits from drug trafficking cartels. That's the distinction between Venezuela and other nations. Senator Cotton, thank you for your time today.

30:23Thank you, Margaret.

30:23Margaret Brennan:We'll be right back. Fox News is now streaming live on Fox One. When it matters most, turn to the voices you trust. We go beyond the headlines, bringing you the stories you won't hear anywhere else. Live coverage, sharp analysis, real perspective. At home or on the go, stay connected when it counts. Stream Fox News on Fox One. Download today.

30:55Margaret Brennan:We turn now to Connecticut. Congressman Jim Himes, he is the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, and he joins us this morning from Greenwich. Congressman Himes, you are part of that gang of eight, which means that information about these secret operations is statutorily intended to be shared with you as part of this very small group. Given that and what you should know, can you clearly explain what the United States is doing?

31:26Yeah, by the way, I was delighted to hear that Tom Cotton, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, has been in regular contact with the administration. I've had zero outreach and no Democrat that I'm aware of has had any outreach whatsoever. So apparently we're now in a world where the legal obligation to keep the Congress informed only applies to to your party, which is really something. But yeah, no, look, I know exactly where we are, Margaret. We're in the euphoria period of acknowledging across the board that Maduro was a bad guy and that our military is absolutely incredible. This is exactly the euphoria we felt in 2002 when our military took down the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2003, when our military took out Saddam Hussein.

32:03And in 2011, when we helped remove Muammar Gaddafi from power in Libya, these were very, very bad people. By the way, much, much worse than Maduro in Venezuela, which was never a significant national security threat to the United States. But we're in that euphoria phase. And what we learned the day after the euphoria phase is that it's an awful lot easier to break a country than it is to actually do what the president promised to do, which is to run it. And so, again, let's let let's let my Republican colleagues enjoy their day of euphoria. But they're going to wake up tomorrow morning knowing, my God, there is no plan here any more than there was in Afghanistan, Iraq or in Libya.

32:40Margaret Brennan:Well, you heard the secretary of state say, well, this is not the Middle East. There are conflicting statements from cabinet members. Hegseth told CBS, you know, the president of the United States will absolutely be in charge here and leaned into the idea of military options. President Trump said there will be an option of boots on the ground. Secretary Rubio, though, really just leaned into an oil quarantine here. What what exactly is the point of leverage here? When do you expect to get answers? Do your Republican colleagues promise you that they will get some of these answers to the questions you have?

33:21Of course not, Margaret. I mean, look, you're seeing it on television today, right? two thirds of my Republicans pick up every single morning. And the only question they have is, what can I do to prove my loyalty to the president today? And we see this because the president has completely shifted who he was. I mean, as I watched that news conference yesterday, I thought, oh my God, this is Dick Cheney and the neocons. Not only are they taking out a, they're doing a regime change in a country, by the way, not a tier one threat to the United States, but that they just don't like, they're warning the other dictators.

33:53This is Dick Cheney in 2002 saying, we're taking down Saddam Hussein. And by the way, Syria and Iran better watch out. And the fascinating thing about that and why it's really hard to answer the question of where the hell they're going to go from here is that the president won by promising MAGA and his own people that this kind of stuff was done, that the neocons were over. And here we are. That was Dick Cheney in the conference yesterday, you know, deciding that the United States was going to, you know, militarily change regimes and threaten other ones just because we don't like them.

34:23Margaret Brennan:Well, but then the secretary of state was talking about working with the regime and working with Maduro's number two, who's now running the place and other indicted criminals, according to the Southern District of New York, who are continuing to run Venezuela. So can you really say that's regime change if they're working with the regime? As you pointed out, it's not much, right? And, you know, a loss to explain any consistency here. I mean, as you pointed out, it was a very bad guy in an indicted drug traffic. Five weeks ago, the pardoned bad and indicted drug traffic. These guys get a part. Some of them get the full fucking milk.

35:09They'll take them to New York. I can't explain that. There is no law. Maybe, maybe he believes that he can work with the, but I mean, look, again, go back to it.

35:23Margaret Brennan:Congressman Himes, I'm sorry to cut you off here. I'm having a terrible time audio wise. I'm going to take a break because hopefully our technicians can fix it in those two minutes. So please stay with us. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Face the Nation. Just want to apologize to our viewers there. Congressman Himes did not have a bad case of the hiccups. We have technical problems. That's why he was getting interrupted there. It's called Live View. That's the technology being used and it wasn't working. So apologies for cutting that short. You're back with me now in studio. And we're going to talk to Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen, who is here in person.

35:59Good to be with you, Margaret.

36:01Margaret Brennan:We'll not have those problems, we hope. But let's pick up on that very same point that we were discussing with Congressman Himes there. He says that no information was being shared with the top people who have oversight, like himself. What leverage do Democrats have to force the administration to treat Congress as a co-equal branch of government? Well, Margaret, it's hard when the Republicans in Congress are totally AWOL, right, when they want to give Donald Trump essentially a blank check because they continue to have majorities, of course, in the House and the Senate. Obviously, in 2026, if Democrats regain control of either House, we will have the gavel.

36:46But in the meantime, we need to go directly to the American people and just make it very clear that in this case, it's my view that the Trump administration has been lying to the American people. This has never been about stopping drugs from coming to the United States. We all support stopping drugs. This from the beginning has been about getting rid of Maduro, grabbing Venezuela's oil for American oil companies and Trump's billionaire buddies. That's what this is about. That's why Donald Trump spent so much time yesterday talking about oil.

37:18Margaret Brennan:Twenty times the word oil was used in those remarks. The defense secretary spoke to my colleague, Tony DeCopal, and used the word oil about six times. There is a lot of focus on those natural resources. But arguably, isn't that what China, Russia, Iran, others are also trying to do, which is to extract their own benefit from this country? You know, what is the counter to that point that the administration would argue? Well, the counter is you don't invade a country to grab their natural resources, right? Do you consider this an invasion even though, although it's unclear because Senator Cotton both said there were boots on the ground and that there aren't.

37:57Well, they took, they had boots on the ground, right? They took out the leader and now they're demanding access to Venezuela's oil. That's what this has been about. I mean, Donald Trump, you know, claimed that he'd been against the war in Iraq from the beginning. That wasn't true. But what we do know is he said, well, having gone into Iraq, we should have gotten their oil. This is what drives Donald Trump. And our servicemen and women perform magnificently. But I think it's outrageous that the president of the United States puts American lives at risk. So big American oil companies and his billionaire buddies can profit.

38:35Margaret Brennan:But arguably, there are also critical minerals there. There are all sorts of natural resources in Venezuela that the drug cartels even were getting in the business of that the Chinese were there trying to get. How do you do both things, both corner the market on things that are of vital national security interest, those kind of minerals, and still actually maintain the principles that you're arguing should be upheld? Well, the United States is working and under the previous administration also worked to secure critical mineral supply chains. Unfortunately, in many of these areas, the Trump administration actually has surrendered to China.

39:15I mean, if you look at, for example, clean energy and all those issues and batteries, we've essentially surrendered that market to China. What you don't do, Margaret, is you don't put American lives at risk to go in and grab oil resources to benefit the billionaires that support Donald Trump.

39:35Margaret Brennan:So Chevron, an American oil company, has been operating in Venezuela throughout. And they told CBS yesterday that they continue to work there. My understanding is there are hundreds of Americans working and living in Venezuela still. Reportedly, there are at least four who have been detained by the regime, the regime that remains in power here. You are on Senate Foreign Relations. What do you know about the detained Americans? What can you find out about how they're doing? I've not gotten an update from the administration on those detained Americans. Months ago, I did work to secure the release of an American, a Marylander, who we now have back in Baltimore, Maryland.

40:17I think the administration is looking at those detentions currently ongoing in Venezuela and determining how many of them are wrongful detentions, how many that they don't think are wrongful detentions. But certainly my view is we should work to bring back every American who is wrongfully detained overseas. I think this is going to complicate that effort, what the Trump administration just did.

40:41Margaret Brennan:Because they could designate Venezuela as a state sponsor of hostage shaking now? Is that where you're going with that? No. My view is that the administration should designate as wrongfully detained any Americans that the Venezuelan government has seized wrongfully. And then there are ways to continue to put pressure on. Now, normally that pressure would be through sanctions. Here, the administration obviously has taken military action. As you've been pointing out, we're still left with the regime. I mean, the vice president is part of the regime. Donald Trump says he's running Venezuela. This is not going to end well.

41:21Iraq did not end well. Other efforts to try to get rid of bad people and we're glad to get rid of Maduro. I'd like to get rid of leaders in other countries, but you don't do it through force. That just doesn't work out well in our experience.

41:36Margaret Brennan:Right. And even on that point, the Secretary of State Rubio challenged me and saying, oh, we couldn't grab all those people at once. But former Attorney General Bill Barr was on Fox News this morning, the man who put together that first indictment of Maduro. And he said the intention was to clean the place out of this criminal organization so there's going to have to be follow-up action. To be clear, do you oppose all snatch and grab operations of indicted people? Well, I don't think we should be putting American men and women at risk in a situation like this. I mean, I'd have to look at every situation.

42:11But again, the motivation here is about grabbing Venezuela's oil for American oil companies. You already see folks on Wall Street lining up. So let's just be real as to what is really behind this operation. I mean, Donald Trump said he was going to focus on the United States. We have people's health care costs going through the roof because they refuse to extend the affordable care tax credits. Meanwhile, he bails out Argentina and wants to run Venezuela for the benefit of American oil companies.

42:43Margaret Brennan:We're going to have to talk about all the things you just raised in a future episode of Face the Nation. But clearly on the question of war powers, does the president have the legal authority to do what he's doing? No, he does not. You're on the Appropriations Committee. You've got power. What can you do about it? Well, I worked with Senator Merkley already to offer a resolution in the United States Senate to cut off any U.S. taxpayer dollars to fund an attack against Venezuela. Republicans blocked us from doing it. So, yes, we will continue to push. In fact, I'm sure we're going to have a vote on a war powers resolution probably as early as this week, if not next.

43:23Last time we offered those, Margaret, Republicans voted no, all but one or two. Senator Paul voted with us, maybe one other. But for the most part, Republicans are happy to give Donald Trump a blank check and surrender their constitutional responsibilities to Donald Trump.

43:41Margaret Brennan:Senator Van Hollen, a lot more to talk to you about. Thank you very much for joining us here today. Thank you. To leave it there. We turn now back to our conversation with Connecticut Democratic Congressman Jim Himes, who I think can be heard now. Congressman. I'm glad we got the link back up for those viewers who lost you there. Can you explain to us, the administration is arguing that what they did is legal and that the snatch and grab operation of taking an indicted criminal, Nicolas Maduro, to the United States through military force has precedent. And they point back to what happened in the late 80s when Noriega and Panama.

44:27Margaret Brennan:What's your challenge to that? Yeah, well, first, it's clearly illegal under international law, right? No full stop. UN charter. No question there. Now, you may not care about international law, but if you don't care about international law, remember, you're going to be making an appeal to international law to try to get restitution for the seizure of Chevron's oil stuff. So maybe you want to rethink how much disdain you show for international law. Clearly not legal under the Constitution because though presidents of both parties have argued against this, the Constitution is really pretty clear that the representatives of the people get to be consulted and ultimately approve military activity.

45:06That has not happened here at all. And so, again, there's nothing legal about this. And more to the point, again, under the international law point, think of what Russia and China just learned. Russia and China just learned that all you need to do if you want to go into Estonia is to say that the leader of Estonia is a bad person. You don't even need to make a particularly good case. Look, there's no national security expert saying that Venezuela was a mortal threat to the United States three weeks ago. So what China and Russia just learned is that the beacon of liberty and rule of law in the world has now greenlighted snatch and grab operations in Estonia, in Taiwan, wherever Xi and Putin decide they want to go next.

45:47Margaret Brennan:So I take your point on the precedent there. Do you think that China or Russia would have the ability to carry out that kind of lightning operation the United States did? well um no uh but that doesn't mean well china yes china yes china very soon and you know their leader has said we will develop this capability we know that their intent is to do precisely this in taiwan russia is a more complicated case it's you know russia loses 10 000 people to get in you know three acres of land in eastern ukraine but that may not be true five years from now and by the way back to the noriega case because you do ask a good question there panama is a terrible precedent.

46:29Why do I say that? Because when we went into Panama, the Panamanian Congress had declared war on the United States of America, right? They had killed a United States Marine and wounded two others. And the Congress had been consultant. The Congress in the Noriega mission had authorized regime change. So it's a terrible precedent that the administration is using to say that this is legal.

46:56Margaret Brennan:Yeah, as we understand it, because we looked this up, Noriega claimed head of state immunity, and the court said that that immunity was meant to protect official state functions and private profiting off the drug trade. Basically, the courts ruled on his actions as a leader and not on the legality of the snatch and grab operation itself. So we're going to continue to track all of this. Thank you, Congressman Himes. Thank you, Senator Van Hollen. That's it for us today. and there has been a lot of breaking news. Thank you for watching. Be sure to tune in Monday night and every weekday night for the CBS Evening News as Tony DeCoppo begins a new generation here at CBS News.

47:37Margaret Brennan:Until next week. I'm Margaret Brennan and this has been Face the Nation. Today's guests were Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Arkansas Republican Senator Tom Cotton, Connecticut Democratic Representative Jim Himes and Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen. The senior executive producer of Face the Nation is Mary Hager, and the executive producer is Ann Hsu. This broadcast was directed by Shelley Schwartz. Face the Nation originates from CBS News in Washington. For more, we're online at facethenation.com and on YouTube. We're also rebroadcast on our CBS News 24-7 streaming network at 1230 on Sundays, and we're available through our apps, CBS News and Paramount Plus.

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