Sen. Bill Cassidy, Sen. Tim Kaine, CBS Chief Legal Correspondent Jan Crawford

19:46Margaret Brennan:What are you hearing from your NATO partners there about the American plans to reduce the presence in Europe? So it would be difficult to reduce the presence in Europe based upon some NDAA provisions that we have put in place that kind of set a floor in terms of U.S. troop strength. And here's the good news, Margaret. both because of President Trump, but also, frankly, because of the actions of Vladimir Putin, European nations are really stepping up their investment in their collective defense. They see the need to do it, and they understand that the United States is right there with them. There's some political churn, no doubt about it.

20:28European nations are not only concerned about rhetoric coming out of the White House, they see a chaotic tariff policy as hurting their economies. But they I also see the U.S. continuing to make sizable investments in European defense, troop presence. The Senate version of the armed services bill that we just passed has sizable investments for the defense of Ukraine. And I think you're going to see some positives coming out of the NATO summit next week. That's my expectation.

20:55Margaret Brennan:So you just mentioned the defense bill that is so significant. And we looked and you said that for the first time in your 13 years on the committee, you voted against it. I understand you have objections to the Iran war, but given the significant military community you have in Virginia and the need the military says it has, how can you defend that? Margaret, it was one of the hardest votes I've cast in 13 years in the Senate. But here was the reason. President Trump is seeking at least a 40 percent increase in the defense budget in one year. He hasn't really told us where that money's coming out of.

21:38Is it coming out of education? Is it coming out of health care? And to vote for that kind of an increase without knowing where we're going to pull the money from in the middle of a war that I think is illegal, unnecessary and foolish. and also to support that kind of an increase without guardrails about how the money is spent. I just couldn't do it. Part of protecting our Virginia troops and going to bat for them is making sure that when we use troops, especially when we go to war, we do it the right way, not the wrong way. Our troops have deployed into the Middle East often over the last 25 years, and in an illegal war for kind of a suspect rationale, that's no way to treat our troops.

22:19Margaret Brennan:Well, I need to talk to you about more in regard to this, but I have to take a commercial break, so please stay with us if you would. Senator Cain there in Brussels. We'll be right back. In just under a week, America will be celebrating its 250th birthday, and we hope you'll join CBS for a special presentation of the festivities. The Great American Block Party airs at 8 p.m. Eastern on the CBS broadcast network, CBS 247, as well as Paramount+.

22:53Margaret Brennan:welcome back to face the nation we return to our conversation with virginia democratic senator tim kane uh senator i want to ask you a little bit about what's happening here at home um there were three far left candidates handpicked by new york city mayor mamdani who won last week over more centrist candidates some are looking at that and saying the reach of the left wing of your party seems to be expanding. And here is what President Trump said. Take a listen. It's becoming a communist party. These are not social Democrats. These are hardcore, godless communists. They're godless communists. All communists are godless.

23:34They don't believe in God. This is the most serious threat to our country since its existence.

23:42Margaret Brennan:What do you make of that attack here? And do you have concerns that the progressive platform of some members of the party will make it more difficult to win in other parts of the country headed into November? Margaret, what the president said is just goofy word salad. I'm not an expert on New York House races. I am an expert on Senate races. And we have got Senate candidates all over this country working to flip red seats blue by focusing on the president's mismanagement of the American economy. Families are suffering cost increases because of chaotic tariffs, illegal war, and focus on goofy things like ballrooms, arches, and the reflecting pool.

24:30And in Virginia, at the House races, I've got four Democratic challengers running to flip red seats blue who are focused on that same kind of cost and affordability agenda that led us to have a landslide win in state races last fall. So I can't really explain what's on the voters' minds in New York City congressional races, but I know it's on Virginians' minds, and I think I know what's on Americans' minds. Let's focus on the economy and bringing costs down, not foolish wars and chaos.

24:58Margaret Brennan:Well, Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan said the party needs significant new leadership because the old models are not working. And she pointed a finger at leadership. Leader Jeffries, Leader Schumer said they need to make room for others who can adapt if they cannot. Do you agree with her assessment? Well, I don't know exactly the context in which she was making it. look, I do think some of these elections can show that there's a desire for new, and it's a tough environment for incumbents. And that, I think, works to the Democrats' advantage in November. Remember, primaries are interesting, but where you really make the difference is not trading out one Democrat for another or one Republican for another.

25:41Where you make the difference is flipping a seat from red to blue. And it is a challenging environment for incumbents, but that's going to work to Democrats' advantage in November.

25:49Margaret Brennan:So you will continue to support Chuck Schumer as leader? Yes, he was one of the best majority leaders we've had in a long time. And if he gets the chance, he's going to be a good majority leader going forward. Well, just to pick up on something Senator Cassidy said, he was talking about health care affordability. Is there any Democratic plan for health care or opportunity to work across the aisle? There is. And look, Bill has been a good chairman. I agree with him on a lot. We have some disagreements, but he's been a good chairman of the Health Committee. And we're working on some affordability issues.

26:25For example, we have a bipartisan bill that we've enacted some pieces of, but we could do more to rein in pharmaceutical costs by more effective regulation of the PBMs, the pharmacy benefit managers. On the Democratic side, we want to reverse some of the harmful Medicaid cuts that the Republicans put in place a year ago. And we've had some interest by some Republicans in that. But reversing those Medicaid cuts and the cuts to SNAP benefits is something that we feel very, very strongly about as Democrats.

26:54Margaret Brennan:Senator King, thank you for joining us this morning. We'll have to leave it there. Sometimes historic events suck. But what shouldn't suck is learning about history. I do that through storytelling. History That Doesn't Suck is a chart-topping history-telling podcast. chronicling the epic story of America decade by decade from the 18th century to the 20th. Original music and immersive sound design accompany us on our storytelling journey. Listen to and follow History That Doesn't Suck, an Odyssey podcast, available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we return now to our conversation with Republican Senator and Dr.

27:34Margaret Brennan:Bill Cassidy. Let me ask you about your role on this powerful committee overseeing health policy. You were recently raising concern that the World Cup and some of these other mass gatherings happening in the United States run the risk of transmission at mass scale of some of some of these diseases right now. Given the cuts to personnel, given the concern you have about what's happening inside these institutions, is American public health up to dealing with this level of risk? Well, we would, one, we don't know the complete effort that's being taken, okay? You don't. The Center for Disease Control, for example, has many things going on at any one moment that no one person knows unless you're directly involved in the agency.

28:22And so let me just say that. And I have no doubt that there's a commitment to making sure that there is not a widespread dissemination of disease at one of these massive events. I'll say that as well. We do see the consequences, though, of ignoring the benefits that things like vaccines brings for public health. And if you will, I think what you're going after is that this administration, parts of it, have tried to downplay the importance of immunization. The Secretary of War, Hegseth, recently did away with the flu mandate. And then there was a big outbreak of flu in one of their military outfits.

29:00Yes. If you ignore history, history doesn't necessarily repeat, but it has a rhythm. And we can look back in World War I, where the Spanish flu went through, decimating armies. But one of the reasons the Germans collapsed is because so many people died from Spanish flu that they had and didn't have manpower to fulfill that their lines began to collapse. Combat readiness means preventing disease. And if you want to be combat ready, you don't want everybody out with the flu.

29:30Margaret Brennan:But he was following the Secretary of Health and Human Services push for medical freedom. So if you see that, you can see we have a mutual obligation. When our founding fathers pledge their life, their fortune, and their sacred honor, there is a sense that we all have to, one, achieve, to achieve those inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There has to be also a spirit of sacrifice among everyone else. And so, if we're speaking about how to protect others, obviously, more people being immunized makes it less likely that someone else gets ill. There is a consequence to not obeying the science of immunization.

30:12And one is children dying from measles, as has occurred, and thousands getting sick with many in the hospital. So I would argue, unfortunately, facts can be a tough, tough teacher. Protect yourself. Talk to your doctor. But society has a vested interest, as we all do, and we all be unprotected.

30:33Margaret Brennan:We now have a longtime vaccine skeptic who is running HHS. who in private practice sued vaccine makers. How much harm has he done? Or do you believe that he has restored trust in public health as you thought he might do? Well, he has not restored trust in public health. And you can see the administration, if you believe the press accounts, are trying to limit his range of activity. Polling shows that the American people understand that vaccines are important. And for someone to be out there saying that they're not goes against their experience. And again, if you look at the measles outbreak in which thousands of kids got measles with the consequences of that, clearly the American people understand immunization is important.

31:17So I think you can see the administration responding to the American people's awareness that folks should be vaccinated.

31:23Margaret Brennan:But we looked at the vaccination rates, which have plummeted. There is not a single county or parish in Louisiana where kindergarten rates meet herd immunity protection levels for measles, meaning it could still be transmitted. Why do you think that is happening, particularly in red states like yours? Well, as Kennedy says, it's not his fault this predated him, even though he had been working on the issue. Yeah. So so leaving that aside, we can look back two things. One, people have not seen that illness. They've not seen illnesses. So if you've not been exposed to something, sometimes it's a little bit harder to imagine that it can occur to you.

32:02If you've never had somebody who's had a child who's deeply mentally retarded because the mama was exposed to a disease while the child was in utero, you may not be able to relate to it. What we're going to find, though, is that people see these terrible events. When they see children die, a woman abort, perhaps a child unfortunately born mentally retarded, then they will have greater understanding. Facts can be a tough teacher, but they do teach.

32:32Margaret Brennan:Do you see Secretary Kennedy learning from those facts? Is he open to those facts? He and I have had multiple conversations, text messages going back and forth and emails, And he seems pretty dug in on his positions. And whatever you bring to the table, for some reason, is not adequate. So I don't see him changing his mind. Do you think he's going to still be here after you leave in January? He serves at the president's pleasure. And so I can't answer that. You've called forward some of these former CDC officials to share with you what's happening inside public health. Secretary of County went on television and made false claims about the MMR vaccine, even claiming there were fetal parts in it.

33:13Margaret Brennan:You had CDC officials saying the secretary is out there in the middle of a measles epidemic telling people false information. Why isn't that disqualifying for the job? Well, first, he's already in the job. And so, again, he serves as the president's pleasure. And you think the president is now aware that this is a problem? The polling, just what I read in the paper, the White House has seen polling that shows the American people rightly understand that immunization is important. And they see these measles outbreaks, and they understand that the American people, whoa, we're not getting immunized, and now we have children dying from measles.

33:55We have people in the hospital because of measles. We have schools that can't open because of measles. And so the administration clearly has gotten off the anti-vaccine message into something more positive. By the way, let's give the secretary credit. He is very much into ultra processed foods. If that's where he stayed, our country would be really much better off. But the concept that immunizations somehow are bad has been clearly disproven by life experience. Because what's happening is people getting sick, in some cases dying. And the administration clearly has moved away from that.

34:33Margaret Brennan:Well, there's no Senate confirmed Surgeon General, no Senate confirmed CDC director. There hasn't been for nine months now. No Senate confirmed FDA chief. 13 of the 27 NIH centers are currently run by acting directors. Is this a problem? Is this something you want to move through by the time you leave? Clearly, it is a problem, if you will, that will reflect a wider problem at HHS. That just goes without saying. Lack of stability is a problem. But there are people nominated for some of these positions. We will process them in this committee, the committee I'm chair of, the help committee. We're in the help committee room.

35:12As soon as we get their paperwork. That's something we just have to have. There's a process you go through. But I've met with the nominee for the Surgeon General. And I met with the nominee for CDC director. And very favorably impressed. And so I imagine they will, I can't speak for everybody, but I imagine they will be approved. And so progress is being made.

35:32Margaret Brennan:Well, I mean, the current CDC autism and vaccines page has a heading that says vaccines do not cause autism very clearly. But there's an asterisk next to it. And it says it's up there due to an agreement with you, the chair of the committee. Do you think there will be strong oversight after January? Do statements like that disappear? I cannot tell you that it's going to disappear. Excuse me. I can tell you that that broke an agreement that I had with the secretary, that that was not supposed to happen. So once you lose trust in somebody, you're not quite sure what to trust going forward. In fact, you don't trust anything.

36:11It should go away because the evidence is that that is not the case. That is a prejudice being brought. And by the way, if you build public health upon a foundation of lies, then you're going to have the absence of adequate public health. You need to build everything in life on truth. I go back to being a doctor. You've got to search for the truth and use the truth for your solutions. That sounds kind of, oh, my gosh. No, that's the only way you make the correct diagnosis and the correct, this is not truth. And there'll be a consequence of it. And that consequence, unfortunately, will be borne by those who actually are influenced by it.

36:52I will say, except for news anchors, very few people read the CDC website. And so I'm not sure how much influence that has, how much negative influence that has.

37:02Margaret Brennan:But the message is from the president of the United States' own social media account. Oh, I get that. He linked the MMR vaccine and Tylenol to autism. I totally get that. And that's wrong. Isn't there damage that's done? Well, again, people have sensory overload. So I'm not sure how much that does. But that's false. It is wrong. And if you build a position based upon lies, upon falsehoods, that position cannot stand. I am a doctor searching for truth, both for the diagnosis of the problem and how do you cure it. In this case, autism is, oh my gosh, doesn't our heart go out for those parents who have autism?

37:39But putting them on a guilt trip because they gave their child a Tylenol or they took Tylenol when they were pregnant is not the answer. You don't make that mom guilty. What you do is you invest those resources into finding the true answer.

37:52Margaret Brennan:You said that Secretary Kennedy broke promises to you. It's pretty clear. Do you think he just made those promises to win your vote, that it was just political expediency? Easy to surmise. You hate the question of whether you regret your vote. Can you explain why you said yes? Bobby Kennedy was going to have the ear of the president. The president seems to be fascinated with the Kennedys. So either he was going to be in a position where there are guardrails, and I did have commitments made as to kind of guardrails, or he was going to be appointed White House health czar, in which case he would have the president's ear without the guardrails.

38:37Now, I had to make a decision. He's going to have the president's ear. Is it going to be with some sort of guardrails where there'd be a commitment to meet on a quarterly basis in which there could be regular communication, in which there would be kind of an agreement that I would have, you know, obviously as a chair, I have some role in terms of the people who assist him, or would he be an unappointed, excuse me, a non-Senate confirmed health care czar? That's kind of my choice. And I chose, you can criticize it, but I chose to have the one with the guardrails.

39:06Margaret Brennan:Do you think you reined him in? The commitment. It would have been worse? I don't, well, that is something that you cannot know. We can't go back in time and say, White House are. But we do know the president is very influenced by Bobby Kennedy. But you don't think he should be in that job? At this point, the commitments that were made to me have been violated. When commitments are made, trust is destroyed. It's difficult to have effectiveness. By the way, I once read trust is the coin of the realm. If you lose trust, you lose everything here. And by the way, the ability to work with others is essential for our government to function.

39:48Essential.

39:48Margaret Brennan:The head of the political action group, Make America Healthy Again, or Maha, says they poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into your primary race. Do you think it made a discernible difference? To beat me, I had a governor, a state legislature, a president, cabinet officials, and members of Congress all coming at me. And they obviously succeeded. But we used to have an open primary in which 1.2 million people could vote for or against me, and they closed it to 400 ,000, trying to distill it down to those who are least likely to vote for me. And among those people, the critical issue is, who did the president endorse?

40:25He endorsed somebody different.

40:27Margaret Brennan:He openly encouraged a primary challenger. Absolutely. And we know why. I voted to uphold the Constitution. The president was offended by that. But that said, it took all that effort in order to beat me. So in one way, I'm complimented. Maha, they just supported my state's economy. Because the real issue is, who did the president endorse? The advocacy group Maha Action touted the win as the Maha movement's taking its first scalp by defeating you. Yeah, that's a press release they're going to put out to try and raise money. It was a president's endorsement period, end of story. Secretary Kennedy testified last year that he is complying with all the agreements he made with Senator Cassidy.

41:13Margaret Brennan:We did reach out to HHS to confirm that the secretary still believes that, but we did not hear back. We have requested an interview with the secretary for this broadcast, and we will continue to do so. Our full conversation with Senator Cassidy can be viewed on our website and our YouTube channel. We'll be right back.

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42:03Margaret Brennan:The Supreme Court is on the verge of wrapping up this session for some analysis on last week's key decisions. And a look ahead to these last few cases, we turn to chief legal correspondent Jan Crawford. Jan, it's always the hardest ones at the end. We know the Supreme Court ruled the president or the DHS secretary can decide, the courts cannot, on the right to cancel temporary humanitarian protections or TPS designations for Haitians and Syrians. That was the decision, but it had bipartisan outcry because part of the impact on the economy. Should we expect everyone here on TPS to be expelled sometime soon?

42:42No. I mean, that will take some time. They're going to lose their legal status, work permits. But there will be some process as this kind of unfolds because they will now be subject to deportation. But advocates say that they could have other grounds for staying in this country, some of the people. And so it really will have to be done more on a case by case basis. Now, this was just one of two of the big immigration wins for the president last week. And in this case, it actually could go beyond the Haitians and the Syrians, some 350 ,000 who now are subject to deportation. President Trump is wanting to end or will be ending now 13 of the 17 countries that currently have temporary protected status for people from those countries.

43:26So we're talking upwards of 1.5 million people who now could be subject to deportation.

43:32Margaret Brennan:So on this particular ruling, the lawyers for the Haitian immigrants argued the administration's decision to revoke TPS. And specifically, the president's own language was racially based and therefore in violation of equal protection. I just want to read a few of the things he said. The president said Haitian immigration is like a death wish for the country. They probably have AIDS. He falsely claimed they're eating cats and dogs. You remember that from the presidential race. And he described Haiti with a word that I can't say on this network. Why did the court look at that and say this is not racial animus?

44:08Because of the sweep of the president's efforts to end these TPS designations for 13 of 17 countries. Right. And, you know, Trump wants to end almost all of them. So they're not just singling out Haiti. So they had a race neutral reason. And the court said that that was sufficient.

44:26Margaret Brennan:So among the other decisions, asylum, Stephen Miller, the architect of a lot of these policies, stood on the White House lawn and says America's doors are fully closed to asylum seekers. Yeah, I mean, no, not quite. I mean, it certainly could be severely restrictive. But this case was about a program that started under the Obama administration and President Trump expanded. It's not even an operation right now. It's called metering, and it allows agents when there's a lot of people trying to come into the country at one time, it's just overcrowded to stand at the border and turn people back. Well, that conflicts with federal immigration law.

45:02What does that mean for federal immigration law? Because you have to be physically present or have arrived in the country to apply for asylum or to seek admission. And so this case turned on what did the statute say? What does it mean to have arrived in the country? And the Supreme Court said arrived in means you're in the country on U.S. soil, not standing on the front yard, you know, front yard of the country. And I think if you look at both of these immigration cases, they both turn on what Congress said. Temporary protected status. Congress created that in 1990. And it says courts have no role in reviewing the president's determinations.

45:39So that's what the court ruled. But Congress can change these laws. And if you don't like it, they can change them. And that, I think, is a real theme that we're seeing from the Supreme Court. It's reinforcing the idea that elections have consequences. And who you vote for, whether in Congress or for the White House, that matters.

45:57Margaret Brennan:And if they can actually legislate very quick decisions, transgender, birthright, how are these going to go? Well, I think it's going to be a mixed bag for the president. He'll lose birthright, but he may get a win on another firing executive officers. All right. We'll be back in a moment. I'm Margaret Brennan and this has been Face the Nation. The senior executive producer of Face the Nation is Mary Hager Laird. The executive producer is Anne Hsu. This broadcast was directed by Shelley Schwartz. Face the Nation originates from CBS News in Washington. For more Face the Nation, we're online at facethenation.com and on YouTube.

46:35Margaret Brennan:Face the Nation is also rebroadcast on our CBS News 24-7 streaming network at 1230 on Sundays. It's available through our Paramount Plus app. There's a lot going on right now. Mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air. I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media. want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here, and maybe how to head them off at the pass? That's on the media's specialty. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.