Claims the Macrons paid for a hit on Candace Owens are “deranged”, says lawyer

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1:37Hello and welcome back to Fame Under Fire with me, Anushka Matanda-Dowdy. This week, assassination claims and the ongoing feud over Charlie Kirk's murder. In the universe of the U.S. right-wing influencer Candace Owens, which is ever-expanding, There are a few allegations she's known for making or repeating to her millions of followers. Number one, you guys know this. Brigitte Macron, the French president's wife, was born a biological man and then transitioned to a woman. If you don't know what I'm talking about, we have a whole episode on it. So go back and listen. You are officially a very goofy man, Brigitte.

2:12But I got to give it to you. You've definitely got balls. Brigitte Macron denies this and has filed a defamation lawsuit against Candace Owens in Delaware. Number two, this is something else Candace Owens has been repeating. the assassination of conservative influencer Charlie Kirk was not all it seems and involves the French government, the Israeli government and Turning Point USA. That's the non-profit that advocates for conservative politics on high school, college and university campuses, which Charlie started and Candice used to work there as well. There were, for whatever reason, 12 Israeli cell phones on the ground at Utah Valley University the day that Charlie Kirk was assassinated.

2:51Now, US media have reported that Candice has provided no proof for the allegation that there were 12 Israeli cell phones on the ground that day. The Israeli government have called the idea that they were involved in the assassination of Charlie Kirk a monstrous lie. The French government haven't responded and Turning Point USA have called it absurd. Now, the third thing you might know Candice for at the moment is a recent claim. She said that there was an assassination plot against her paid for by the Macrons and planned by the National Gendarmerie Intervention Group. That's France's elite counterterrorism and hostage rescue unit.

3:23Her initial tweet alleging this has been viewed more than 44 million times. Two days ago, I was contacted by a high-ranking employee of the French government. In short, this person claims the Macrons have executed upon and paid for my assassination. The Gendarmerie told French media this is fake news. The Macron's attorney, Tom Clare, has called it deranged. On Monday, Candice sat down with Erika Kirk, Charlie Kirk's widow and the new CEO of Turning Point USA. We know what Erica has had to say about conspiracies surrounding her late husband. Stop. That's it. That's all I have to say. Stop. Joining me now to walk us through this is Will Summer, a senior reporter at The Bulwark, who covers and reports on disinformation, conspiracy theories and right-wing media.

4:10Hi, Will. Hi, thanks for having me. I just want to get in there before the commenters do and say why we are covering this. Why is Candace Owens important? Candace Owens is a massively popular podcaster and YouTuber in the United States. She's a long running right wing activist of about a decade. Her most recent live stream about Turning Point USA had like 100 ,000 concurrent viewers. So, I mean, this is someone who has a lot of influence. And I think the larger takeaway here is, you know, yes, this is YouTuber drama. This is sort of a soap opera, but it's one that I think Republicans are really concerned about because it is having this effect of sort of dissolving the good feelings the party had after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the sense of mourning and coming together.

4:54And now it's sort of dissolving into backbiting. And, you know, look, I mean, they have elections for Congress next year. And I think there's concern that this could hurt Republicans. And you mentioned that Charlie Kirk, obviously, Candace and Charlie had a longstanding friendship and she used to work at Turning Point USA. Charlie was kind of known for prioritizing conversation about Republican viewpoints in schools and college campuses and university campuses. That's certainly how he described himself. Let's have an open debate about what he believes in and what Turning Point USA stood for. What was Candace's relationship like with Charlie for people who don't know?

5:29So Candace Owens emerged in the sort of the Internet fever swamps, perhaps these sort of culture war fights over video games. Were video games too liberal? Were they too conservative? Whatever. And then from there, she kind of entered the world of right wing media more broadly, thanks to Charlie Kirk, who obviously was a very successful young Republican activist and brought her in sort of as his sidekick, perhaps his co-star. And so she, in particular, worked to try to convince black Americans to leave the Democratic Party and what she called, you know, you guys had Brexit. They called this Blegxit, so black exit.

6:03And so she tried to convince them to leave. And that's kind of how she she built up a lot of her audience with Charlie Kirk. They had this friendship with Kanye West. They were clearly very close at one point. Yeah, I mean, if you go and look at Candace's social media or her YouTube, it's hundreds of videos of her and Charlie and pictures together. And the friendship that they had is very clear. So we just heard about Candace and Charlie's relationship. Can you walk me through what happened to Charlie Kirk on the day of the assassination, the official line, and then some of the questions that Candace has started to ask?

6:33Sure. So let's start with the line from the FBI, from local law enforcement. So on September 10th, Charlie Kirk was giving a college event at Utah Valley University in the state of Utah. According to the FBI, a sniper nearby, a young man named Tyler Robinson, who was on a nearby rooftop, While Charlie Kirk was speaking, he shot Kirk through the neck. Kirk was killed essentially instantly. The video was captured very broadly. A lot of people saw it all over the world. Within a few days of the assassination, Candace Owen started to say, well, did it really happen this way? I don't really believe Tyler Robinson did this.

7:08And she started to initially point fingers at Israel, which she's been a very outspoken critic of Israel and is also very anti-Semitic. I mean, she goes much beyond, I think, typical criticism of Israel. And so suddenly she was bringing this conspiracy theory element. Before Charlie Kirk was even buried, she was bringing this story up. So you say she's questioning, you know, I don't think this is what happened. What are some of the theories that she put forwards? So, you know, it can often be a little hard to describe her conspiracy theories because there isn't sort of one single idea that she has.

7:40She sort of cycles through things. I think, to be frank, I think she's looking for whatever is going to keep people tuning in. And there's got to be some new revelation on each episode of her YouTube show. So she has posited that Charlie Kirk was maybe shot from an underground tunnel. There are utility tunnels on campus. Maybe someone from a trap door shot him. Possibly was there a cult surrounding the insect, the bee, like a beehive? There's a lot of bee symbology in Utah because they're Mormons. They love bees and beehives. And so essentially she's seen all these bees and she said, this is a cult.

8:11You know, how could this happen? So it's a very sprawling conspiracy theory. And she keeps returning to the idea of Israel having some involvement. Now, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has flat out denied this, actually came and directly addressed this. Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister, said that the bigger the lie, the faster it will spread. Well, somebody has fabricated a monstrous big lie that Israel had something to do with Charlie Kirk's horrific murder. This is insane. It is false. It is outrageous. But Candace is saying, actually, I have a basis for this allegation.

8:51There is text messages that support this theory that she has. Tell me a little bit about that. Sure. So Candace argued, and this was a big revelation at the time, she said, well, I know that in the weeks and days leading up to his murder, Charlie Kirk was getting increasingly fed up with Israel. Turning Point USA, Charlie Kirk were seen as very staunch defenders of Israel and Jews. But in the final months before his death, Charlie Kirk, she claimed, was basically saying, you know, we need to get some distance between Israel. Young Americans in particular were getting fed up with the war in Gaza.

9:23And so she presented text messages where Charlie Kirk said, you know, I'm getting sick of this particular donor because he doesn't want me to host an anti-Israel speaker. Or he was saying, you know, essentially that he felt that Israel was being very demanding and that pro-Israel donors were really exerting a lot of control over his organization. And for a lot of people who are critical of Candace, this falls into a pattern of allegations. She's been accused of anti-Semitism by the Anti-Defamation League. They say she embraces and promotes anti-Semitic tropes and anti-Israel rhetoric in her videos.

9:55But there is also a large group of people, her followers, people within Turning Point USA who were asking questions as well. She wasn't just shouting in to avoid people who were saying you're crazy. Yeah, I mean, I think there's been a lot of tumult within Turning Point USA after Charlie Kirk's assassination. I mean, I think there was this moment of unity, but then was replaced with kind of like a lot of factionalism, a lot of discontent. I mean, the reality is there were I mean, Charlie Kirk really does seem to have been at odds with his pro-Israel donors in the weeks leading up to his assassination.

10:24There was a meeting in the Hamptons hosted by the billionaire Bill Ackman, where, according to Candace Owens, that sort of the pro-Israel elements of the group sort of braced it. Charlie Kirk and said, you know, you need to get in the party line here. Bill Ackman has said that it wasn't really like that, but that there was this meeting. So I think often with these conspiracy theories that are successful, there is kind of a kernel of truth here. And I do think it's true that Charlie Kirk was growing a little discontented with his relationship with Israel. On the other hand, she really has not presented any proof that they killed him.

10:54But she does say the text messages that she shows, they have been confirmed by Turning Point as authentic. Yeah, right. So Turning Point did validate or verify a lot of the text messages Charlie Kirk sent where he was saying, you know, these Jewish donors are in some ways their worst enemies or these pro-Israel donors because they're so demanding. They want to exercise so much control over the organization. And so, I mean, that is true that her claims that he was sort of having a falling out with Israel, which were initially treated when she said them as just impossible. I do think a lot of that has borne out.

11:26Well, look, Turning Point USA have denied any involvement or wrongdoing. Blake Neff from Turning Point USA addressed the allegation in a video posted on X saying they showed a total reckless disregard for the truth. And he added, we thought that her fabrications were so absurd that no one would believe them. The French government have not responded to her claims. But there was a reaction when Candace started saying this, particularly within the sphere that she exists in, this sort of right wing influencer space online. What were some of the reactions? So over the past several months, Candace Owens has sort of increasingly approached criticizing Turning Point USA and even Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica, directly.

12:03And so initially, it started with Israel, and she got kind of closer and closer. And obviously, I think, privately, a lot of right-wing media people that I talked to were really horrified from the beginning that she was doing this. I mean, this kind of twisting of Charlie Kirk's legacy, this sort of commercializing of the death, turning it into this sort of investigation where she's making, I would say, minimum tens of thousands of dollars, and I think likely a lot more than that, from her videos. You know, people were horrified. But most people were quiet because they were concerned that she would turn on them.

12:31More recently, though, in the past few weeks, Turning Point USA essentially said enough is enough. And they sort of challenged her to this showdown. You mentioned Blake Knaff. He said, you know, come meet us and we'll debate all of your conspiracy theories about Charlie Kirk on a live stream for the whole world to see. Then she's this builds up to this meeting with Erica Kirk, who's the new CEO of Turning Point USA. Just for people who are completely new to this story, it feels like there would be a large amount of backlash to start questioning a grieving widow. But a lot of the discourse online, there has been a large amount of discourse questioning Erica Kirk, her motives and her reactions.

13:11It can be hard to believe. And in a way, it's still kind of hard to believe myself. You know, initially, I think Erica Kirk, who pretty quickly was made the CEO of Turning Point, and it was really seen as her husband's heir. Even Candace Owens, I think, was sort of suggesting, well, you know, maybe all these other Turning Point USA people were corrupt or they betrayed Charlie Kirk, but not Erica. And then she started kind of changing her tune. She was saying everything in Charlie's life was a lie. You know, maybe everything was fake, presumably including his wife. I think Erica Kirk has been hurt, but she's had a couple pretty unflattering interviews.

13:46I don't think she's as charismatic as Candace Owens, which I don't think is hard to be because, I mean, Candace Owens, I think, is very charismatic, whereas Erica Kirk, I think, is obviously going through a lot. And I think her attempts to push back on Candace Owens, I think, has prompted people to say sort of, well, OK, she's a figure in the arena now and now we can target her as well. There is a large group of people as well who were sort of voicing concern that Candace was going to step into a sit down, not streamed, not live, not on camera with Erica Kirk and people from Turning Point USA.

14:16There's no indication that anybody was going to harm Candice. Erica, turning point, you're just anybody, anybody at all. However, if you look in the comments section when she announced that she was going to have this sit-down, Candice, be careful. Candice, are you taking security with you? Will you have bodyguards? So there was this level of fear about it. And then Candice, after her sit-down, she posted this. Four and a half hours later, I'm alive. I'm alive. I'm totally fine. And I'm sorry I was going to do a show for you guys this evening, but I am truly exhausted. And even the comments underneath that are saying they got Candace.

14:52People are skeptical of her motives for posting that and why it wasn't live streamed and why there were no cameras in the room. But now she has streamed for an hour going through what she says. She spoke to Erica Kirk and other people at Turning Point USA about. What are some of the things she says happened in that room? So this was a meeting that was brokered by the right wing podcaster herself, Megyn Kelly. No recorders were allowed. We're told maybe they secretly recorded it. I really people in this world love to secretly record each other. So I wouldn't put it past them. They were allowed one aid each.

15:24Candace Owens brought her husband at one point, brought her cousin. He swapped him out. Erica Kirk had a Turning Point USA employee. I think also what's maybe not being discussed here is whether Turning Point suggested they might sue her if she kept it up. Candace mentioned that there was a lawyer at one point. So, you know, I think that's very believable. But, you know, overall, she had her kind of first broadcast after the meeting. And I think it's interesting that her fans, as you mentioned, are acting like they've really been betrayed, like she's sold out. I mean, I think if you look at her words, she's more or less, she backed out a little bit.

15:54She said, well, maybe I shouldn't have called Turning Point USA a godforsaken organization and told people not to donate to it. I think the most direct attacks on Turning Point. But then she still put up faces of the staffers and said, this guy's suspicious. I don't believe this guy's a liar. I mean, I don't think she's necessarily totally abandoning her conspiracy theories. But I think what's interesting about the fact that her audience feels betrayed is that that suggests to me that in the same way that Candace Owens is sort of this creation of right wing media that is now turning on it. I think potentially her audience is turning on her now as well.

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17:57It's interesting, isn't it? I was going to ask you, do you think the conspiracy theory in and of itself actually will outlive Candace, who is the mouthpiece for it? Because when you look, the top comments, the top liked comments are they got her. She's yeah, they've got Candace. They showed her something. They scared her. She's going to back down. And we all know what that means, guys. You know, I think the private nature of this meeting could really backfire on Candace Owens because people, you know, she's saying we're all in this together. We're all part of the Candace intelligence agency, as she called it.

18:29And there was a sense of, you know, the audience is sending her tips, what have you. And then suddenly the leader of this movement meets privately with, you know, someone she's portrayed as sort of the villain. And then suddenly says, well, you know, maybe I went a little far. So I do think when you have a conspiracy theory that, to be frank, is based on zero actual evidence, I think it's in some ways inevitable that it ultimately will turn on its leader once that person tries to apply any sort of breaks to it. people within Turning Point who support it, who pay, you know, pay to support it, who are members, they were asking questions as well before all of this, before Candace.

19:06That's right. I mean, I think there is this sense of, you know, rudderlessness at Turning Point USA. I mean, Charlie Kirk was a very unique figure in American politics. He was a media figure. He was an activist. He had a lot of ties to the Trump administration. He was a very successful businessman in a way. I mean, Turning Point USA brought in a ton of money. in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's assassination, I think there's been a lot of discontent and factions that have emerged, both among Turning Point staffers, but also among right-wing media personalities who were friends with Charlie Kirk, who were affiliated with him.

19:35I mean, there's clearly a vacuum that's been created in sort of who will be the new face or who will absorb his followers and his power. And so people like Megyn Kelly, the former Fox News host, who's now a successful podcaster, Tucker Carlson, again, former Fox, now a podcaster, but also even some of Charlie Kirk's enemies, people like the white nationalist Nick Fuentes. I think there's a real scramble on for influence after the assassination. I mean, to be frank, these are not people who really, you know, stand on ceremony. And she's also been talking to other people. She recently did a sit-down interview with Russell Brand.

20:08Now, our listeners might already know this. Russell goes on trial in the UK in June on charges of rape, sexual assault and indecent assault. He's pleaded not guilty and told his followers that he's grateful for the opportunity to defend himself in court. And since the COVID pandemic, he's developed kind of a cult following for his views on politics and society with videos challenging mainstream media reporting and often amplifying conspiracy theories. So, you know, a lot of people saying this is a natural fit for these two to sit down together and talk to each other. Let's hear some of what she had to say to him.

20:37Do you think these things are connected? Brigitte Macron's true identity and Charlie Kirk's murder? Yes, I think it's all connected. And I think in many ways we already live in this sort of one world government system. Maybe it's two worlds. But in terms of the West, I don't think there's any difference in the governments. And that's kind of the point that we're making and maybe why the Charlie Kirk case is so crucial, because it's showing us that, wait, what is the divide here between America and Israel and France, right? Then we start to see Candace bring in some of her, you know, here's one I made earlier, conspiracies about the Macrons and how this is all interconnected.

21:10And the French government has a part to play in the assassination of Charlie Kirk. What kind of a reaction has that globalization of the conspiracy theory had on the ground? It makes the conspiracy theory exciting. I think for people outside of her bubble, even people who are Trump supporters, it looks a little crazy, even crazier than usual, because it says, oh, really, the whole conspiracy theory, the whole Charlie Kirk assassination was really ultimately about Candace Owens in her telling that it was about sending her a message or it was sort of taking it back to the Macron's who she's been investigating this whole time.

21:43But at the same time, I think for her audience, I think people are really enthralled by this story. But then it goes one step further because she says that there's also been a plot against her life, an assassination attempt that's been verified, she says, by people in government that the French ordered and paid for an assassination attempt on her. Yeah. So now Candace Owens, her, she added more to conspiracy theory and she said, this isn't just about this assassination that's in the past. This is about a live attempt on my life. Israel and France, the Macron's, they've dispatched a multinational team of assassins to take me out.