D4vd Preliminary Hearing: Day Four

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1:29Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:plea on all charges. And his attorneys have previously told us that, quote, the actual evidence in this case will show that David Burke, that's his real name, did not murder Celeste Rivas Hernandez and he was not the cause of her death. We will vigorously defend David's innocence. Joining me now is our reporter, Sam Mulick, who has been inside the courtroom all day in Los Angeles. Hi, Sam. Hi, Anushka. From everything you were sending through on the group chat and everything I'm seeing, it sounds like it was a really harrowing day. Text messages between Celeste and David that appear to show that she had an abortion and she felt forced to do so.

2:02Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Sexually explicit images described in the courtroom, as well as a detailed explanation from the medical examiner. Yeah, so this was our fourth day in court and out of the four, this was definitely the most challenging. We started out with seeing Celeste's corpse presented by the medical examiner, followed by photos recovered from David's phone about their relationship, followed by sexually explicit photos of the two of them, followed by many text conversations between them. So it started out bad with the corpse and the details of the wounds and the decomposing body, and then it got worse from there.

2:46Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Well, let's start with the medical examiner, Grant Ho, who picked up from yesterday and gave his final conclusions about how Celeste died. If we go back, we were waiting for a really long time for the medical examiner's report to determine a cause of death. So I'm really interested in how this played out in court. The medical examiner went through Celeste's corpse and we saw his analysis. We saw the body, you know, what was left of the body. And it was just, you know, we're sitting there and we're looking at a decomposing body, which is unrecognizable to, you know, a human person. And, you know, one by one, the medical examiner kind of went through the two penetration wounds that Celeste had.

3:30He also went through the multiple dismemberments on the body. It was very graphic, you know, strikingly, the colors of the corpse. He literally used the term that the corpse was skeletonizing. It was a skeletonization of the corpse. So this is what we're seeing. And he went into detail about the different wounds, the different dismemberments as well.

3:53Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:So let's take a step back from the unlawful dismemberment charge and look at the murder. We're waiting for a very long time to establish a cause of death. And you mentioned those two penetration wounds. Can you tell me more about what Grant Ho had to say about that? Certainly. So that's as far as he would go in terms of the words he used to describe the wounds. At one point, I believe one of the attorneys said the stabbing and he corrected to say it's a penetration. We cannot decipher at this point if it's a stabbing or not. So specifically, there were two wounds. One was above Celeste's belly button to the right.

4:30I believe the depth was about one and a half inches and it stopped right before the liver. And then there was another wound that was on the left chest. And so again, you know, he went into how the penetration happened. And so he went as far to determine that the cause of death was from these wounds and the cause of death was a homicide. But that was all. There wasn't any determination as to how or when or what caused the wounds.

5:03Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And I'm assuming that's going to be something that the defense then picked up in cross-examination. Yeah, so the defense was really adamant about pressing Ho on how long the death could have taken. They asked him, was it minutes? Was it hours? Was it days? And all he said was, I cannot determine it, but all I can determine is that it took minutes from the penetration wounds to the cause of death. And there was another point where the defense tried to press Ho on whether or not there is the possibility of substances to have caused Celeste's death. And all Ho said was that I have to refer to the toxicologist.

5:43I cannot make the determination myself. And there was also a moment where the defense asked Ho, is there the possibility that these wounds were the result of self-harm? And he said that the findings were not consistent because usually there is something that comes up with self-harm, which is, he used the term hesitation marks, which are present when wounds are a result of self-harm. So, you know, the defense is there just trying to press him and try to establish doubt in what was going on. But again, you have to imagine what this morning was like, because as we're seeing Hope present the autopsy and the corpse and different parts of Celeste's dismembered body, there was one point earlier on when in order to go to the first photo, they flickered through the whole slide, the whole PowerPoint, and we're all sitting there.

6:38And this was the very first moment where we saw the corpse. We saw the different parts of the autopsy, the different rotting and decomposing parts of the body. And I just remember that moment where everyone gasped quietly, but people were really taken aback because to be presented with one image is one thing. But then when you see kind of the whole thing very quickly was a whole different matter. But, you know, as the morning progressed, the tension in the room was just so palpable. And I remember there was one moment when we were looking at the left chest wound and we were all zeroed in on this wound that killed this girl.

7:20and there was a metal water bottle that fell in the audience and it fell on the floor and it made a big sound and a lot of people gasped and were startled just because of how focused we were on the images being presented.

7:36Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And was Celeste's family in for this? Celeste's family was not in the morning, but they did come into court later in the day, but they were not there for the autopsy and the corpse images. And as we know, that cross-examination is, of course, there for the defence, like you say, to weaken or destabilise the theories being put forward by the prosecution. We haven't heard that before about could it potentially be a self-inflicted wound. It's interesting to see that that's one of the avenues that they're pursuing. Another one of the charges being the unlawful dismemberment of Celeste's body. Was there a determination made by the medical examiner as to how it was dismembered or what tool was used?

8:13There wasn't any firm conclusion, but what Ho did say is that in order to dismember body parts like that, a knife or something that is not a power tool could not cut through bone. And while the prosecution was asking him, you know, when you examine a body, when you cut through tissue, when you cut through muscle, what do you use? And he responded, you know, I use a knife and a scalpel, you know, I use the proper medical tools. And then she asked, would a knife and a scalpel cut through bones? And he said, no, in order to cut through bones, you must use a power tool. So he was firm that non-electrical power tools could not cut through bones.

8:53He didn't go further than that, but that was a point that the prosecution made. And then the defense also pushed back on that claim.

9:01Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Now, obviously, this preliminary hearing is to establish probable cause, which is a much lower evidentiary bar. but that would potentially present a problem if this case does move to trial, that the two chainsaws in David's garage tested negative for traces of blood, which we found out yesterday. Talk to me a little bit about the tattoos on Celeste's body. Again, we did see photos of Celeste's left pinky finger and ring finger cut off and amputated is the word. And we've heard a lot about Celeste's missing two fingers. Did they go into that at all? They did not. They were still not able to determine the location of those two fingers.

9:42Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:When we were waiting for a cause of death to be determined, when the medical examiner's report came back, there was conversation around the fact that she was so decomposed that it was very difficult to establish a cause of death. Did the defence pick up on this at all and challenge that in any way? Yeah, so that was something that Ho said from the top, is that the decomposition of the body really did challenge his analysis. And this was something that the defense did pick up on in trying to say, well, how can you determine these things? You know, because we were going into the details of the skin because with the decomposing body, the skin becomes a lot looser.

10:20There's no blood left. Some of the bodily matter becomes liquid. So I remember at one point they were describing a bag with liquid decomposing bodies. So various of those elements, many of those elements did challenge the autopsy. I think at one point he talked about using biological matter from the liver rather than from blood to help identify Celeste and help create the tracking identification for her. So that was another significant thing that Ho discussed.

10:56Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And let's move on to the second part of the day where we really start to focus on that charge of continuous sexual abuse of a minor under 14 years old and I've said this before but just for clarity sexual abuse of children at any age is abhorrent in Los Angeles law they make a distinction when the child is under 14 years old because they see them as especially vulnerable and therefore the crime is elevated in the eyes of the law Sam talk to me about how they established the allegation that David and Celeste had an inappropriate relationship? So yeah, we've been in court for four days so far, and this afternoon was probably the most challenging we've had yet.

11:35So, well, it started with the Los Angeles Police Department detective displaying iCloud data recovered from David's phone, and it went into the details of these photos that they found on David's phone. So the first photos that were presented made an effort to establish their relationship. So we saw David and Celeste together in what prosecutors are alleging is the Black Tesla. We saw various photos of David and Celeste on FaceTime. And another really striking one was a photo of David and Celeste kissing. We saw that in the courtroom. We saw kind of another selfie of them with their faces next to each other making kissy faces.

12:24So this is all happening while the family is seated watching these photos come up on the screen in front of us.

12:31Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:The photos then stop and you move into descriptions of photos. Talk to me about that. And I'm just going to give another warning before we get into this because this is very graphic and some listeners might find it upsetting. So the detective described out loud the child sexual abuse material. And I believe the detective described about 40 photos I counted in my notes. And it was just one after another of Celeste's naked body, the two of them performing sexual acts. There were photos of David's naked body. There were photos of what was described just as a penis. There's photos just described as a woman's breasts, as a woman's vagina.

13:17So there are some photos that you couldn't make the determination just based on the photo as to who it is. But many of those photos also had the background that resembled David's residence. And of course, the prosecution made sure to mention that. So one after another, after another, after another of the description of these photos are being read out aloud in court describing a child having sex with an adult, describing a child being photographed having sex with an adult, performing different sexual acts, being in different nude positions. and so very early on in the reading out of these photos Mercedes Rivas Hernandez Celeste's mother began crying she was disturbed she was looking down and the deputy district attorney came over to comfort Mercedes and talk to her briefly and in a quiet voice and I couldn't really make out exactly what they were saying it did sound like she encouraged her to take care of herself and leave if she had to because the photos followed by the rest of the evidence presented in the day were just extremely difficult to look at and to hear about.

14:35Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Yeah, that is a very heavy day. Not to drill down on this, but you mentioned photos of them engaged in sex, photos of them engaged in intercourse? Yes, what appeared to be photos of them engaged in intercourse. Yeah, from the descriptions given. And the reason I say that is because when you look at that charge of continuous sexual abuse of a minor under 14 years old, the way that it is proven, the way that the jurors make their determinations is that you need three qualifying acts spread over a period of at least three months apart to get the continuous element. So moving to trial, if this does, the prosecution could then use the time and date stamps on those photos if they are as they purport to be.

15:16Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:It's one of the ways that that charge is determined by jurors. They don't even need to agree on which qualifying acts they are, nor do they need to agree on the dates that they took place. So it's just an intricacy of that law. Now, this is, like we say, establishing, well, the prosecution attempting to establish this inappropriate relationship through the pictures, and then there are accompanying text messages that go alongside it. Can you talk to me about those? I just want to give one more warning, because what we're about to hear is very graphic and detailed, and you might find it upsetting.

15:51So the rest of the day was hearing these and seeing these text messages read out in front of the whole courtroom between David and Celeste. And many of them centered around their romantic relationship, their sexual relationship, performing sexual acts with each other, recording themselves performing sexual acts with each other. The prosecution kept making a note with each new text thread. she asked the detective, and in this text thread, was the victim still 13 years old? The detective would say yes. And was the defendant still 19 years old? And the detective would say yes. And then they would read the contents of the text messages.

16:37Some notable ones being that the text messages suggested that Celeste had an abortion performed while she was 13. There were text messages that even said from Celeste, I cared about you. I killed my kid for you. I'm still wanting to talk about it. It's my baby, so I want to talk about it. David's saying, I don't want to talk to you when you're upset. David's saying, I'm saddened by it. I'm even more sad of the way it was conceived. David said, I can't change it, but I can change the way our next child goes.

17:11Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And I'm seeing some here talking about abortion gifts. Yes, there was one text where after it was suggested in the messages that Celeste had an abortion performed that David then sent a message saying, I'm thinking about your abortion gift. Celeste responding, I want a Balenciaga hourglass purse. Celeste then texting David, do you ever think we have a whole ass sex tape? She's referring to the amount of sexual acts that they've recorded themselves doing. And David's response to that question, do we have enough material for a sex tape? And his response was, a few of them. We could make a few sex tapes.

17:55And then Celeste said, don't leak it. And then David said, you don't leak it. So in these text messages, it was very clear in different parts as to David being aware of Celeste's age and the nature of their relationship, the nature of if people knew about their relationship, what the response would be.

18:18Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And we see these references to OA, Operation Awesome. Was there any indication as to what that actually is? Yeah, so it wasn't exactly clear. What it seemed like from the text messages is that that's how they referred to their relationship, but also to what seemed like the desire for Celeste to leave her parents' house and to move in with David. they talked about conceiving of a plan of her packing her things David providing her with bags to pack her things Celeste saying I don't know what to bring David responding we've been over this whatever I can't immediately give you make sure to bring it one thread that was really striking was David suggesting that in four years that they move out of the country and get married in Italy, Celeste responding, and David bringing up again the OA.

19:12I'm saying after all these OAs, God made it happen without any cops and all these posters. And so believed to mean that referring to the previous wellness check that, you know, police officer in West Hollywood approached David, and then also the posters referring to the missing persons reports that Celeste's parents filed multiple times when she left the home to be with David. And David clearly acknowledging this text, and again, you know, making a suggestion that he saw them coming together as God making it happen without police or missing persons reports intervening. And again, I mean, you know, these text threads throughout the day that we're hearing in court are of a child and David, who was 19 at the time, engaging in a romantic and a sexual relationship.

20:13And all of the texts of two people talking about having sex with each other, having a connection in that way. And it was very intimate, these intimate words between each other that we're hearing. But as you said, Celeste also kept bringing up the pregnancy and that she had an abortion performed. And at one point in another text thread, David was saying, and it's believed that Celeste was pregnant at this point, again, Celeste being 13 and David saying, I'm sorry again, baby, I don't want to ever put you through this. Celeste saying, no, it's okay. Don't worry. Both of us are not able to take care of it, it being the baby.

20:59And then David saying, when you gonna get it done, which believed to mean the abortion. Celeste responding in two days. And David sending a text that says, also, my mother always told me to ask this question. If I was ever in this situation, I'm not insinuating anything, but it's mine right. To which Celeste responded, of course it's yours, David.

21:26Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And I've got in here, David's mum knew about him and Celeste together. Is that right? There was one text that Celeste asked David, does your mum know that we're having sex? To which David responded something along the lines of, that's all she thinks we're going to do once we see each other. So the texts as of now have not revealed the extent to which David's mother was aware of the relationship, whether or not she knew that Celeste was underage. But what we can tell from that text is that she knew about Celeste and David's relationship and she knew that they were engaged in a sexual relationship.

22:03Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And it's going to become, if this moves to trial, really important who knew what and when, because the claims from the defense team is that David thought Celeste was 18, that she'd told him she was 18. And in these messages, that narrative is being somewhat challenged by some of the stuff David is saying. But also it sheds light on some other stuff about Celeste. Talk to me about the tattoo on her finger. Earlier on with the photos that the detective presented that were recovered from David's phone, it was clear that on Celeste's left ring finger that later was amputated, there was a tattoo of David's name in red ink.

22:42It just said David, D-A-V-I-D, in red ink on her left ring finger. And as we know, we no longer know where that finger is.

22:52Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:We know that David had a corresponding tattoo as well. Yes, as we know, when David was arrested, they took photos of one of his fingers that had Celeste's name on the finger. So we've seen text messages throughout this, what the prosecution are saying is an inappropriate relationship. And then we see sort of the breakdown of that relationship. Yeah. So later on, we see text from Celeste being angry toward David for the abortion, again, saying, I killed my kid for you. At another point, she says, we had sex for a year. How is that not connection? How do you not care about me? And then we kind of see in David's response, him saying, we tried, this doesn't work.

23:39You know, you're acting like this is the first breakup. And then one thread presented on March 14th, 2025, allegedly a month before she died, there was a thread where Celeste said, let's just be friends, but just online. I don't want anything to do with you. Celeste saying, all we do is have sex and hang out, man. I want more than that for myself. Celeste then saying, without a label to is insane. David agreeing, saying, yeah, the boundary setting is terrible. And then Celeste saying, it's not just that, David, a lot more than that.

24:18Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And if those messages sound familiar, that's because one of them was included in the pre-court briefing that we had from the prosecution, that one about what we do is have sex and hang out, man, I want more than that for myself. Trying to show that this was a coercive relationship. This was a relationship that was abusive at its core, which of course, if it is what the prosecution are alleging, this is a minor talking to an adult. So all of these messages are evidence of an abusive relationship. But that is something for the defense to come in and counter. You haven't got to cross-examination on this yet, I believe?

24:50No, that is to come. Right.