Diddy on Trial - Investigating Diddy's secret world, plus verdict reaction

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1:09Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

1:22Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Hello and welcome to Diddy on Trial from BBC Sounds with me, Anushka Matanda-Doughty. So the trial ended on Wednesday and Sean Diddy Combs was cleared of the most serious charges, racketeering and two counts of sex trafficking related to ex-partners Cassie Ventura and another woman referred to as Jane. But jurors found he was guilty of two other counts related to the transportation for prostitution of both Jane and Cassie. In many ways, the trial was the end of something, a conclusion to questions we have been asking for nearly a year now. But the conversation? The conversation is far from over.

1:56Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Power dynamics and working practices in the music industry, coercion, control and consent, these buzzwords are on the lips of social media commentators the world over. Joining me today to tackle some of these big topics are two women who couldn't be any closer to the trial. With me is the BBC's investigation correspondent, Rihanna Croxford. Hi, Rihanna. Hi. And Laura Coates, former federal prosecutor, now CNN anchor and chief legal analyst. Hi, Laura. Hi. Glad to be here. Thanks. Now, we have a lot to get through today, Rhianna. You have done an in-depth investigation into the inner world of Diddy.

2:29Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And Laura, you've spoken to one of the alternate jurors. So let's talk about Rhianna's investigation first. You've seen messages and recordings from former staff members in Combs' household. Tell me about your interviews with Phil Pines. If anybody's been watching and following along with the trial, they might recognise that name. It came up on a few documents a few times. That's right. So Phil Pines is one of Sean Combs' former assistants. He worked for him between 2019 and 2021. And he's also one of the more than 60 people to have filed a lawsuit against Combs. He's accused him of harassment as well as unfair working conditions.

3:09And Phil was one of several former household staff who I spoke with. I've been speaking with lots of people who worked in his Holmes across Los Angeles, in Miami, in the Hamptons, to get a sense of what Combs was like as a boss on a day-to-day basis. And they really did paint a picture of a very intense and demanding and volatile person to work for. They said that Combs could be really unpredictable, and they attributed that to his drug use. I spoke to another former assistant, who wasn't Bill, who told me about an incident where he says Combs smashed a glass against a wall in a fit of rage and the shards cut his face.

3:55So he's got a scar on his forehead as a result.

3:57Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:What did Diddy have to say when you put this to him? So Diddy didn't comment on the specific allegations that we put to his team. What they did give me was a statement from December 2024 when Bill Pines first filed his lawsuit. and it basically says that Sean Combe says that he's never sexually assaulted or sex trafficked anyone, man or woman, adult or minor, and that anybody can file for any reason. But he has obviously previously denied these allegations more broadly when it's come to these lawsuits, but he didn't comment on the specific allegations that we put to him. Laura, hearing that now, I can't imagine you're super surprised because it does fall in line with some of the testimony we had from other assistants that took the stand.

4:47Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:I'm thinking here about David James and George Kaplan. What do you think when you're hearing what Rihanna's told you about? I mean, you're almost compelled to just shake your head repeatedly and almost in disbelief. but for the fact that you heard testimony from people who would have relayed perhaps something analogous to that. And at the same vein, would have then told the jurors and, of course, the attorneys asking questions, how they revered and respected him as a businessman. And there was always this split screen of this Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde being painted, where on the one hand, somebody was engaged in really egregious professional behavior.

5:24On the other hand, someone would say, but I learned so much from him. And it was like a business school in and of itself.

5:30Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And a lot of that is about lifestyle and the defense attorney lead counsel, Mark Igniflo, saying this is a lifestyle. This is hip hop. This is who he was. So, Rihanna, what did Phil tell you about Diddy's lifestyle? So both Phil Pines and the second assistant that I spoke with painted a picture of a very hyper sexualized lifestyle. lifestyle. So both of these two assistants told me about how they were having to regularly organise and clean up after these so-called freak-off events and how humiliating and at times traumatising that was, having to walk into the room when either sexual activity was taking place or immediately after and having to clean up very intimate fluids.

6:14And they also talked about how regular these nights became over time, going from sort of being weekly to daily, and that they could also take place on an international scale. And at least one staff member told me that they were also required to both search online and book escorts for Sean Combs and send him photos for his approval. And both of these assistants who I spoke with also talked about how there was a constant rotation of young women going in and out of Sean Combs' many residences, including in Miami, which was his main home. And Phil Pine says he got to see quite a few of these people, and here's what he thought about it.

6:56A lot of people looked like they were enjoying themselves. A lot of people I witnessed looked like maybe they had never done anything like that before. I witnessed one woman one time, I took her home from his Miami residence, and she uttered the words to me, I've never done anything like that before. and she was shaking and shivering like she was coming down off the drugs. You mentioned in your lawsuit that you'd once witnessed Sean Combs being violent. Yeah. Can you tell me what happened? Yeah, there was an incident that happened at Star Island where him and a female guest were arguing. They're arguing stuff's moving to the street.

7:35I'm paying security to come out because it's getting heated. They're going back and forth and he pushes and kicks her. and at that time he's telling her, take off that hoodie. He curses at her. So after he kicked her and pushed her, she takes off the hoodie. She's topless, no bra on nothing, no T-shirt on. So I take off my jacket and I wrap it around her to kind of shield her from it. At that time, security got him, taken him, pushed him back a little bit. Within a minute or so, her Uber arrives. She gets in the car, she goes home.

8:11Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:We've heard a lot about violence. Laura, this came up again yesterday when he was requesting bail, where Judge Arun Subramaniam said, you've put your hands up and you've admitted that this is a violent person. Just talk me through some of the stuff that the defense said about that. You know, here in the American system of the law, there's this saying, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Well, you think about that when an officer is maybe arresting you, when you think whatever I say here can be used against me at trial. And then the perception is, but once the trial is done and the jury has rendered their verdict, let alone that I've been acquitted of something, then nothing is really used against me.

8:53I go from the presumption of innocence throughout the trial to having been proven not guilty. And yet we saw yesterday that that's not entirely true. The judge certainly took into account different aspects that were not things related exclusively to the prostitution-related charges. And the statements that were made not by Sean Diddy Combs at trial, because we didn't hear from him on the witness stand, although we heard audio notes. We did hear through the advocacy of his counsel that he owned the violence, not because he accepted or thought it was the right thing to do or that they agreed with his violence, but that he was somebody who was violent.

9:34He was a domestic abuser, but he was not a racketeer. He was not a sex trafficker. And the judge had to essentially evaluate that and say, look, I've got these factors in front of me as to why I have to consider somebody being released until they're sentenced or held. And part of that is a threat to the community. A part of that is whether they're a flight risk. A part of that comes from the statute and what needs to be proven to hold someone in detention until they are actually sentenced. And he took all that into account and used the defense's own words that confirmed the violence that Sean Diddy Combs owned through his counsel's statements and said, you've already told me full throatedly he's violent.

10:15If this is a crime of violence, this is a violent person, then that's a reason to detain them pending sentencing. I've rarely ever seen a judge that will hold someone in detention pending sentencing because he intended to have them walk at sentencing.

10:31Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And we spoke briefly there about predicate offences. And of course, when we hear from the assistants, the prosecution were trying to build that forced labour predicate offence. But there was also a drug trafficking predicate offence in there as well. Rihanna, you spoke to Phil about travelling with drugs. What did they tell you about that? So Phil travelled with Dili everywhere in the two years that he worked with him. And he often talked about how he had to take a Gucci bag full of drugs and also supplies for free coughs for him. everywhere they went, even on the private jet. The same drugs he would use at his home.

11:09Marijuana, mushrooms, some of his other pills that he likes to take, put it in the safe, have a combination for it. No one was going to ask what's inside of these bags. It's Diddy, you know? You're not going to get there and somebody will be like, open up all these bags. He's a celebrity. Were there things that you were uncomfortable about carrying? Absolutely. Marijuana. I don't want to carry domestically or internationally. Other drugs, mushrooms, ketamine, ecstasy, all that stuff. I don't want to take that stuff. It was a requirement. If he gets there to his next destination and doesn't have it, it's your fault.

11:51Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:As you mentioned there, Laura, we didn't hear from Diddy, even though he did put his hand up and he was waving And it did sound like he wanted to get up there and get on the stand yesterday. But we did hear voice notes that you mentioned where he's speaking to Cassie and Jane. What did that tell us about who he was and the messages he was sending them? I think you've got a clear indication that he had the upper hand in terms of what he felt entitled to. And I found it fascinating when you think about the way in which you're always gauging as a trial attorney what the jurors are accustomed to and what they're hearing in the real world versus what you traditionally can bring in as evidence to prove your case.

12:32And here we are in 2025, when you no longer have to ask the question of whether you'll only hear from a defendant through, say, a police station video with a detective where they're in those sort of rooms and there's a corner table and you've got this gritty, grainy video of them perhaps confessing or otherwise. Now you've got them able to use and speak their own words, not just in writing through text messages, not just by taking the stand, but by being able to hear that person. And when it came to Sean Diddy Combs, this is a voice that people know through his music production. And you only heard him speak a couple times in court, one when he was complimenting the judge, one when he was at the beginning when he wanted some water to use the bathroom out of the earshot normally of the jurors, and then through his own voice, through these notes.

13:22And I have to tell you, at the bail portion of it, or you recall that moment when they're considering whether to release him pending sentencing, I'm sure he wanted to speak and plead his case because he wants to go home. And he was probably thinking, I've got life in prison off the table. I'm hoping, he's probably thinking, the prostitution-related charges will be months, not years. So I'd like to be home back on Star Island. But the words you say can be used against you. And just because the jury has made their determination and was excused, that judge still has to make a decision about your sentence.

14:00And it was probably very prudent and strategic for the defense counsel to say, let me talk to him first. And ultimately, he ended up not speaking because there can be a level of arrogance and confidence that comes from the hope one feels when there is some form of an acquittal that could really come back to haunt you in the eyes of a judge who will judge remorse, who will judge the attitude of the person who has gone through that seven weeks' worth of trial.

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16:01Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And I think the point you just made there is absolutely fascinating about the type of evidence that you can get in these trials. But like you say, these voice notes, this comes up again and again. Rihanna, you heard some that were saved by some of his employees sent to them. Did they touch on similar themes that Laura's just mentioned there? Yeah, absolutely. A lot of those voice notes centred around Combs asking his staff to bring him drugs. Combs asking his staff to come and clean up after these so-called freak-offs. Combs also just ranting. So I saw quite a few videos, quite a few images, heard quite a few voice notes.

16:40Hearing Combs really, in his own words, making these direct demands to his staff. Hey, Phil, can y 'all come straighten it up over here? Not looking luxurious. Hey, Phil, I need a plan B. Can you give me 20 Xanax, please? Phil, I need some Cialis. Phil, can you come back upstairs to help me set up the red light? Can I give you a little bit of tea, Anushka, as well, Ades? Yeah, of course. So today I had the chance to interview exclusively for CNN an alternate juror. And he actually talked about the impact of the technology and the text messages, not just in terms of the voice notes from Sean Diddy Combs, But how the jurors were viewing the text messages that they saw from Jane, from Cassie Ventura, and we looked at that throughout the course of trial as an indication of consent and proof somehow that there was a seed of reasonable doubt that had been planted as to coercion and force.

17:43You heard Cassie or Jane describe that what they put in writing sometimes was to placate Diddy, was to maintain the relationship out of concern that it would end for a variety of reasons. But at least one juror evaluating that evidence as an alternate thought, hmm, those text messages tell me something different than what the prosecution wants me to believe. It's fascinating.

18:10Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:That is fascinating. It's like you're still on the stand in the ether of the courtroom somehow for messages you sent in some cases a decade ago. Laura, we were in that courtroom yesterday. I came and saw you afterwards in the scorching heat to have a little debrief about what this all means. I mean, I can't emphasize it enough, guys. It was a circus outside. I'm sure you'll see the videos on social media. Laura, what are the implications of this trial and the verdict that were reached in your opinion? I mean, people looked at this in many ways as trial attainment. They were out there days on end, weeks on end.

18:43There were journalists. There were influencers. There were people who were just interested from the public. And all of it came together in this sort of motley crew melting pot of people with a wide range of opinions. And you also had among them some very vocal provocateurs, including people who were pouring baby bill on one another and themselves. Even as Sean Combs' mother, Janice, was walking by to different cheers. You had people trying to rage bait others. You had screaming matches as people were either pro-Diddy or they were not. And this conversation entirely, it took on a life of its own because it seemed very clear from almost the beginning, didn't it?

19:23That this trial was obviously in reality about Diddy as the defendant and the witnesses and alleged victims who came forward. But it was also a conversation about our societal power dynamics. about celebrity, about Me Too, about believing women, about delayed reporting, and about sexuality, fetish, and kink. And it became almost emblematic of a critique of the government and overreach or the role that we all play in the court of public opinion.

20:01Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Something that I worried about from day one, and it is because it was so heavily included in the indictment and we understand why the government went with this, but the memification of the details of the Diddy trial and the fact that we did have all these influencers there. And influencer isn't a dirty word, but some of the stuff that was being said was out there. Some of it was offensive and some of it was unnecessary. Do you think that now we have this verdict, we're no longer going to focus on what the charges were, how certain things happened, whether he was unable to act in a certain way.

20:33Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And this is just going to pass into the history of sort of joke, meme, and internet fodder. I certainly hope that people will be able to distill the conversations that need to happen and to extract that from the memification that you so aptly identify here. But I also think that people are going to have a discussion on what the law is and what it ought to be. And I think they're also going to be continuously evaluating. If you are a survivor, if you are being victimized currently as well, you're going to weigh in some respects, was it worth it? Was it worth it to come forward? Was the courageous bravery that is required to do so, is it enough?

21:15Or will people be relegated to silence? And I ask those questions in my own mind all the time based on being a sex prosecutor and somebody in the media when you have people who are telling their story. And I know painfully what it, I'm empathizing and can almost speculate, to what it would feel like when that light of the camera goes off. And here you are dealing with the ramifications of having spoken up. And I think that's going to be one of the things that I am biting my nails about in terms of what this all means in the end.

21:53Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Absolutely. And Rihanna, you've been across this for a long time. You've been investigating before the trial started and you've been across the civil lawsuits as well. You know what the verdict was. You've been following the trial closely. What do you think the implications are now? I've been in touch with a number of people who have filed lawsuits against Sean Combs in the past year. Not all of whom are ready to share their stories and speak out. But some of them are messaging me yesterday just telling me they were absolutely devastated. absolutely devastated that somebody like Cassandra Ventura could take the stand and testify in such graphic and harrowing detail about these experiences.

22:34This was a woman who took the stand to say that the trauma of these encounters of these freak-offs nearly drove her to take her own life and they'd been depressed also in their own words seeing these conversations play out on social media with people minimizing domestic violence, something that Diddy and his team admitted to from the outset. So they've been really demoralized and they wonder what it means for survivors of abuse going forward to speak out, to bring claims, but also what it means in terms of further prosecutions of powerful people, will prosecutors now take a pause and think, should we be bringing this case?