Macron vs Candace Owens lawsuit

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1:35Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anushka Matandadauti. For those of you who have been with us since Diddy on Trial, welcome back. And to our listeners who are dipping in a toe and seeing if they like it, This is the place to come for a facts first approach to the topics dominating our timelines. When celebrities, sports stars, politicians, influencers and royalty find themselves in the firing line, whether it's a lawsuit or a scandal, we're going to pre-bunk, debunk, fact check, myth bust, interrogate and of course answer your questions.

2:11Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:You can send them to me on social media or on our WhatsApp at 0330 678 1114. That's 0330 678 1114.

2:24Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Now, coming up today. The life of Candace Owens, it works like this. I wake up, I stretch, I have a cup of coffee, and then I am served with a lawsuit. I think that's the morning routine, my friends. That is clearly my morning routine. It is so effortless. And today, I have been sued. Then we have the Blake Lively deposition happening. She's suing her co-star, Justin Baldoni, and his production company, Wayfarer Studios, for sexual harassment. Joining me today to break all of this down is our resident criminal defense attorney from South Carolina, Sean Kent. Hi, Sean. Hey, how are you doing, Anushka?

2:57Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:I'm good. And our PR and crisis manager, Molly McPherson, joining from just north of Boston. Hi, Molly. Oh, happy to be here, Anushka. Right. So first up today, we have Sydney Sweeney. First came the bathwater soap scandal where she was literally selling her bathwater soap. And now this advert for American Eagle Jeans, which has upset a fair few people on socials as they feel it has an undercurrent of eugenics. Jeans are passed down from parents to offspring, often determining traits like hair color, personality and even eye color. My jeans are blue. Sidney Stweeney, Casper Keynes. Now, Molly, I have no doubt that you've seen this.

3:37Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Sean, this is definitely your first time watching this advert. For the uninitiated, Sean gets all his clothes tailor made and he doesn't shop off the rack. so I don't think he's paying attention to American Eagle adverts. But this is what people on TikTok have had to say. It's diabolical copy in this political climate. Let's talk about that American Eagle Sydney Sweeney ad and eugenicist dog whistles. We can't keep pretending that media and marketing exist in a vacuum. That ad doesn't exist without the culture it's selling into. This is American Eagle's most expensive ad to date, meaning that nothing in this ad was accidental.

4:06And there was a decision made about what cultural cues they wanted to sell to in this ad.

4:10Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Now, this advert is clearly making a play on the word jeans, jeans. We've seen this before. It's important to note that a portion of the profits are going towards supporting survivors of domestic abuse, although some people think that that actually makes this a lot worse. Wait, I thought that the super sexed up American Eagle ad with Sydney Sweeney, with all the eugenics and Aryan race overtones being for domestic violence awareness was a joke. I thought that was a joke that people were making. So we've had some different perspectives there. But for somebody who doesn't really understand why people are using the word eugenics, there is a broader context you need to consider.

4:46Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Sydney Sweeney is a Caucasian woman who is seen as someone who typifies Western beauty standards. The use of the word genes has historically been the language of eugenics, which is a belief that humans can be improved genetically by selective breeding. This has been obviously discredited. That's pseudoscience. It's often used to celebrate a so-called ideal of someone with white, blonde, blue eyes. Sydney Sweeney. Molly, the sentiment online is that this advert is completely tone deaf without understanding that the idea of good genes and using that wordplay can upset a lot of people. Well, in ad campaign like that, when you're working with a celebrity, there's so much intentionality behind it.

5:26This campaign from concept all the way to production to distributing it out to everyone in the younger female algorithm went through a lot of hands. And when no one flags something like that, it has an intentionality that is so obvious. We're talking about it right now. People are talking about it online. I bet everyone behind the scenes from American Eagle and that campaign views it as a success. Would you go as far as to say that this was rage bait? I don't think that's printed anywhere in the concept briefing, you know, at the ad agency. But if you walk into an American Eagle, you're going to walk in and you're going to see a lot of girls who look like Sidney Sweeney.

6:06I mean, that is their target market. They want conversation. They want dialogue. This is viral marketing in this day and age. You know, if people aren't talking about an ad, then the ad isn't successful. The fact also that they had money flagged to go towards domestic violence shows that they were thinking about that. You know, they wanted to have kind of that backup as well, that the money is going somewhere when the rage started. It's all about inciting a conversation. And in that case, it worked. The question is, is it the right thing to do or not?

6:40Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Now, we asked American Eagle and Sidney Sweeney for a response and they didn't get back to us, nor have they made a comment anywhere else. and all the adverts are still up and the press release is still up. Sean, could someone sue American Eagle and say that they are perpetuating a rhetoric that encourages racial tension or racial hatred? They could try. I mean, that's the one thing about being in America is you can sue for just about anything. Is it going to go anywhere? No. The easiest way to remember what lawsuits is you have to have some type of damages. And so if somebody was to sue American Eagle and say, we think this is awful, because an ad can be awful.

7:17There have been awful ads in America since a generation of time. But those ads have to be something that creates damages for somebody else that targets someone specifically and then it specifically hurts somebody. So let's take that one step further. Let's say it is doing some type of rage baiting and then let's start saying that short, white, blonde, blue-eyed women are starting to attack and physically beat African-Americans or people who don't fit in. Then they could say this ad is responsible for X, Y, and Z. In the 80s, there used to be a lot of lawsuits brought against rappers because they said rappers and so forth was creating these songs that would make kids do certain things.

7:57There are people who tried to sue shock artists such as Marilyn Manson and things of these nature because they were saying people were killing themselves because of this music. It's so hard and it's so targeted. So is it possible? Yeah. I don't think it's gotten to that threshold yet where something bad has happened.

8:16Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:That's so interesting. Now, if you don't reside in the same corners of the internet, you might not have stumbled across this. But for quite some time now, podcaster and right-wing political commentator Candice Owens has been accusing the first lady of France, Brigitte Macron, of being born a man named Jean-Michel Trogneau, which is actually the name of Brigitte's brother. And this is very confusing, and I'm with you on that. But follow me. Candice claims that Brigitte lived the first 30 years of her life as a biological male before undergoing a sex change and stealing the identity of the real Brigitte.

8:50Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:These claims were first kind of semi-popularized by a journalist called Natasha Ray and a now deleted four-hour-long interview with a spiritualist called Amadeen Roy. The video got 450 ,000 views before it was taken down and it made some waves. Brigitte Macron sued Natasha and Amadeen for the defamation and won. But that verdict was then actually overturned by an appeals court in France. So Brigitte Macron and her brother are escalating the case to a higher court. But this conspiracy really erupted when Candice Owens started a series on it on her podcast called Becoming Brigitte. Alongside the claims that Brigitte is lying about her identity, Candice has implied that the Macrons are silencing journalists who are looking into this story.

9:33Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:But the Macrons are now suing Candice. And the lawsuit claims that Candice has said that the The Macrons are part of a very small group of elite oligarchs who routinely practice homosexuality and paedophilia, as well as worshipping a transgender deity. Molly, a claim like this flies on social media. And the Macrons say in the lawsuit that many people have seen it and believed it. So tell me, Candace has made this claim Sunday night. It's Monday morning. You're the PR and crisis manager for the Macrons. What are you doing? Well, to file a lawsuit for claims like this, it's really difficult to prove in a court of law.

10:11And Sean knows this, certainly. But this is so clearly false that they absolutely have a case. So typically with clients, they always come to me and they want to go legal first. Most often I tell them not to do it because it is so difficult to achieve a legal win in this. But in this case, they're going against a personality who is struggling a bit reputationally in the U.S. So she's almost a good target to win a case like this. So from the Macron point of view, I actually thought it was a good move.

10:43Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Do you think that maybe she should have just been like, here's a picture of me at this age? Here's a picture of me at this age. Here I am doing a blood test or whatever. No, because they're not just attacking her. They don't want to prove and be on the defensive. They want to be on the offensive here. It's they're sending a message and she is someone who is considered a conservative Republican. But what may not be clear from a global perspective is that she's split from the mega crowd. You know, she is not aligned with mega as much anymore. So she is someone who's clamoring for relevance. She's clamoring for clicks and views for money.

11:21And it's pretty obvious here. So I think legally they found a weakness in her brand right now and attacked.

11:29Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Sean, you've read through this 200-something page lawsuit. It starts by laying out— It's so long. It's so long. And I thought we had long ones with the Sean Combs trial, but this is long. It's very thorough. It starts by laying out who Brigitte is, including pictures of her when she was a young girl, including newspaper clippings that announced her birth, accompanied by a photo. In that photo, you can see her along with her brother, who is Jean-Michel Chocneau. Candace is an American. This lawsuit is filed in Delaware. You guys have a codified, entrenched constitution, unlike us, and we know you don't play about your amendments.

12:03Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:How far is Candace protected by her First Amendment right to free speech? By far one of the best questions you have asked. I love that Molly made the comment that, and I've done it, she's exactly right, we generally don't encourage people to jump into the lawsuits. I've had a lot of people come to me and they're like, I want to follow law. So I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down a minute. It is easy to sue somebody for defamation. OK, a personal person, a regular person, because we don't want people out there talking about us. A defamation lawsuit means just that I am talking bad about you and people are hearing it and it's upsetting them.

12:38What changes when you sue a public figure or a public official? That is so much harder. In the United States, we have a case called New York Times versus Sullivan. What ended up happening? That's a case from the civil rights movements back in the 60s. What ended up happening? Somebody brought an ad and they said there was all this racist stuff happening down in Alabama. Some of the stuff in the ad just wasn't true. So the sheriff down there, Mr. Sullivan, or the publicist said, I have a problem with that. I want to sue the New York Times. Stuff in this article is simply not true. He won in Alabama.

13:14They appealed all the way up to our Supreme Court and our Supreme Court said, no, the press should have a right because of freedom of speech to talk about public officials. We don't want public officials because they're public, because they're president telling the press, you can't talk about me. So what they said is to be able to sue a public official like Candace or like the president or anybody of that, you must prove actual malice. OK, you must prove when you are saying something about somebody, you knew its falsity at the time that you made it and you said it with actual malice that you wanted to hurt somebody.

13:55It seems easy. That is such a high standard. So that's going to be the hard part for them to be able to prove that Candace acted with either actual malice or her recklessness was so gross it raised to a level that a normal person should not have done that. And the lawsuit, I think it does a decent job of showing that she's acted with actual malice, but it's a higher standard than you think it is. Sorry, long-winded answer.

14:19Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:No, no, but I tried to see where they were doing this in the lawsuit, how they could prove that. So in the lawsuit, it lays out that Macron sent Candace what they refer to as a December retraction letter, essentially asking her to retract her previous claims. And they lay out that in this letter, they provided photographic evidence of a young Brigitte and Brigitte at her first marriage. They also highlight how journalists have met with Brigitte's brother, Jean-Michel Truongneau, who has confirmed that he and Brigitte are not the same person. They also attach photos of Brigitte and Jean together in 2021.

14:46Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:All of the photos they say they sent to Candice in this December retraction are freely available to view in the lawsuit. So in sending her that December retraction and her continuing to make those claims after she has acknowledged that she's read it, surely then that is the proof of actual malice. Maybe. And that's going to be the question. And that is going to be their concept because they are doubling down. I don't know who is representing her is not the smartest thing that I've seen because her doubling down. She refers to it. She's gotten a lawsuit and she literally doesn't care. And she's like, this is and she's doubling down.

15:19That goes to show punitive damages. Punitive damages was where the problem occurs. Punitive damages in America basically mean these are damages to dissuade the conduct that you have done. These are damages that can go through the roof that can show significant more money. If you follow in America, if the Sandy Hooks shooting, there's a shock jock, Alex Jones, and he is to the tune of owing billions of dollars. Not with an M, billions, because he doubled down the same way that Candace did. The only difference between Sandy Hooks and Candace is, is she a public figure, what she is, and if they can prove actual malice.

15:56If they prove actual malice, you can see billions with a B because of the punitive damage aspect. Because what I was curious about is how are the Macron's going to be able to show regular damages? How is this hurt you? But the fact she's doubling down, they can show punitive damages and this could be troubling for her.

16:16Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:So we asked Candace's people for a response and they pointed us to her podcast where we could pull some clips of how she feels about this lawsuit. If you need any more evidence that Brigitte Macron is definitely a man, it is just what is happening right now. The idea that you would file this lawsuit is all of the proof that you need. Yeah. Even before she was sued, Candace encouraged the Macron's to file a lawsuit on her podcast saying, bring it. I'll run down to the courthouse and file the lawsuit for you. I might even cover your legal expenses. So she's been encouraging them to take legal action for a while.

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17:53Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:file now blake lively is due to sit for her deposition she will face questions from justin baldoni's lawyer that's the man she's suing you asked us so many times during the diddy podcast to cover this but for those of you who don't know this case or you need a refresher blake lively she's an actress you might know her from gossip girl or i know from the sisterhood of the traveling pants. She was in a film called It Ends With Us. She was starring opposite Justin Baldoni. He's an actor, but he was also a producer and director of the movie. So technically he was her boss. Blake is suing Justin and other companies and people involved in making of the film for sexual harassment, retaliation, breach of contract and defamation.

18:30Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:We asked Justin Baldoni for a response and Baldoni's legal team told the BBC at the time the allegations were categorically false. He also sued Blake for defamation, but this was thrown out. Now, Blake says the atmosphere on the set was very unprofessional. She highlights things like unchoreographed intimacy, claiming Baldoni discreetly bit and sucked on her lower lip during a kissing scene where he improvised numerous kisses. What we typically see in films is that the intimacy is choreographed almost like a dance routine. So they will agree how many times they kiss, in what way, what camera they're going to be facing.

19:04Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:She's saying that he just randomly slotted this in. She says it wasn't just her. She also claims that Baldoni inserted a sex scene in a flashback sequence where the younger version of Blake's character is shown losing her virginity. Lively says that she was told that after he called cut, Baldoni went up to the actors and said, I know I'm not supposed to say this, but that was hot. Did you two practice? But part of this lawsuit outside of the sexual harassment element is this allegation of untraceable, basically reputational damage being done. Molly, Blake is alleging that she was a victim of astroturfing and an untraceable smear campaign.

19:41Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:What actually is astroturfing? Astroturfing is not typically used in the celebrity realm. It's in the issues management realm. So if you were to think of renewable energy, for instance, versus coal, they want to, you know, blanket out, carpet out a type of issue to get out there, you know, from a lobbying perspective. You don't find it in the celebrity realm. This case has been so incredibly damaging for Blake Lively and her husband, Ryan Reynolds. It is a case of two people who will not stop digging. And they are looking for any type of out or blame shifting, whether it's astroturfing, you know, putting viral messages, negative reputation out there.

20:28It is absolutely going to damage her career that I don't think she's ever going to come back from it. And for them to put PR on trial, so to speak, I don't think that angle is working as well.