The Epstein Files: Fact or Fiction?

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1:00Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:But the sheer amount of questions about Epstein means we're going to dedicate a whole episode to it. Now, reminder, those files detail a huge investigation into the late Jeffrey Epstein, who sexually abused dozens of young women and girls. And of course, the victims and survivors must remain at the centre of all of this. Now, we asked you, what questions do you have about the files that you're not seeing covered in the headlines? You sent them in. Today, I'm going to answer them. It's just me and you. There's no Sean. He's doing that lawyer thing that he does in court. But later, I am catching up with Eric Fidali from the Bloom Law Firm, and he's going to fill me in on some updates about the survivors.

1:35Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:But first, we're covering everything from cannibalism to torture references and conversations around babies. Is this all actually in there? And what more do we know? This is a Jeffrey Epstein fact or fiction from Fame Under Fire. But three things before we start. First, a warning. Some listeners or viewers, if you're with us on YouTube, might find some of this content distressing. Second, as we heard last week, we have to remember that just because somebody's name is in the files, it's not an indication of any wrongdoing. And lastly, you might hear me say this email appears to be from so-and-so, even though their name is actually in there.

2:10Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:That's because they could come out and say, well, yeah, it's sent from my account, but I didn't actually write it. And sometimes we just don't know who it's from because it's redacted. And sometimes it's just not clear who sent it. But I'm going to jump straight in. I've got senior producer Jim in the gallery. Jim, what's the first question?

2:26Arick Fudali:Are the emails about torture true?

2:29Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Yeah, and I know what emails that is referring to. I've seen them all over TikTok.

2:32Arick Fudali:Where are you? Are you OK? I loved the torture video. That is an email sent to somebody that has been redacted from Jeffrey Epstein.

2:41Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Yes, they are in the files. This is a direct quote from one. This is an email from Epstein, which is redacted. So we don't know who it was sent to. It was sent on the 24th of April 2009. It says, quote, where are you? Are you OK? I loved the torture video. That's EFTA 00663685 if anybody wants to look on the DOJ website for themselves. Another one written by Epstein, we're not sure who to, again says, quote, do you want me to try to do her dot dot dot or just torture her? Now, those emails are in there. The screenshots you've seen on social media are real. But what do we actually know outside of this?

3:18Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:We can't see in the files if the FBI have actually investigated him for torture, if they followed these emails up and found it was something benign or if something criminal was going on? Can we glean anything from the federal indictment? Now, reminder, a federal indictment is a lawsuit that lists charges made by the federal government. Now, the actual crime of torture doesn't exist as a statute in US law, so it can't be prosecuted under the banner of torture. But what we might think of as torture is prosecuted as other crimes. Think assault, battery, locking someone in a room, So false imprisonment, those all can come under the headline of torture that a prosecutor might say happened in court, but they'll actually exist in the indictment as other crimes.

4:01Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:When you get to sentencing, there's something else that can happen. The prosecutor can include torture as an enhancement. We've spoken about that before on this podcast. It's basically where they say, judge, Mr. So-and-so is a sex trafficker, but the method through which he coerced his victims was torture. so therefore he should get even more time on added at sentencing however none of this is alleged in Epstein's indictment but I want to make a really clear distinction here because I've seen some of this stuff on social media if you keyword search torture in the Epstein files it's going to come up a lot of times it comes up 518 times by no means are all these references similar to the ones I just read out from the emails that are in there it says things like quote I don't mean to torture you but can you please sign this contract so if everybody's saying all 518 mentions are about him saying things similar to what we just said that's not true there are other messages where references to torture imagery appear to be dropped into what seems like casual conversation for instance in this one reference EFT A02640135 it says this is a direct quote from the email number one, Madonna on the way.

5:12Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Number two, instead of torture photo, maybe portrait of me instead. Number three, presentation of Trumpville. Those messages are sent to the artist Andres Serrano, who produced a series called Torture. Now you can Google that online and see what it looks like. He's known for creating some provocative works. Epstein was also going to him to get his portrait done by him. And so we can see this email seems to be organising what our Epstein would be buying from Serrano and the reference to a torture photo could be about Serrano's work. Once again, there is no other information provided on this email chain, but it must be noted those are not the only mentions of the artist Andre Serrano in the files.

5:53Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:He's in the files multiple times and at one point Epstein says to him, quote, I hope you are enjoying our girl. That's EFTA 0100 8005609 if you want to go and look at that. Of course, as we always do, we asked Andres Serrano about his relationship with Epstein and what these messages mean. And we got a response from his wife, whose words are spoken by one of our colleagues. She said this. Andres' relationship with Epstein was mostly based on Andres' desire over years to acquire an antique statue Epstein

6:26Arick Fudali:had. Andres told this story in press a few times.

6:31Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Now, she's included in the email a linked to a Vanity Fair article where he does talk about this, she said the reference to the torture picture is a reference to Serrano's series titled Torture in All Caps 2015. On the message about enjoying, quote, our girl, she said, This Andres doesn't remember at all.

6:49Arick Fudali:Most of the emails are lost on our side due to several computer crashes and updates.

6:54Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:So I sent her a screenshot of the email that the, quote, our girl reference was from and she responded with this.

7:00Arick Fudali:Epstein's perverted sense of humour refers to a Madonna statue that Andres got from Epstein.

7:07Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Again, let's be absolutely clear, an inclusion of somebody's names in the Epstein files is not an indication of any wrongdoing. But yes, there are references to torture in the Epstein files and those screenshots you've seen flying around, well, they are real. But like I said before, we have no extra information from the FBI as to if they looked into this, if they investigated this. That's not in there at all. But that is the answer to that question. So the next question we got sent in a lot was this one. Is there a photo of Jeffrey Epstein with Kuru disease? Now, if you don't know what Kuru disease is, I don't blame you.

7:41Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:It's a rare neurodegenerative disease that occurred primarily in the Papua New Guinea highlands due to ritualistic cannibalism. That was part of a burial rite. This claim, oh my gosh, I've seen this everywhere, absolutely taken off on social media, particularly on TikTok. videos viewed millions and millions of times and it's it's a falsity wrapped in a real exhibit from the epstein files let me play you one of those videos i've had the displeasure of coming across

8:07Arick Fudali:this picture and video in the files and it has brought to the forefront of my brain a story that

8:12Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:my dad used to tell me all the time when i was a kid and i didn't the photo that they're talking about that is real if you're with us on youtube this is what it looks like i'll describe it it's Jeffrey Epstein with a swollen side of his face down to his lip. That's actually in the exhibits, but he does not. And let me categorically say, he does not have Kuru disease. That disease is fatal. No cure. You can't survive it. You lose your ability to walk, to sit up unassisted, to be able to eat. You have slurred speech and you are dead within 12 months. Jeffrey Epstein was giving interviews and writing letters in jail.

8:46Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:His death was not caused by Kuru disease. The official cause of his death remains a, quote, suicide by hanging, according to the New York Medical Examiner in August 2019. Now, I just played you that clip about Crore disease. Let me play you another one.

8:59Arick Fudali:I've had the displeasure of coming across this picture and video in the files, and it has brought to the forefront of my brain a story that my dad used to tell me all the time when I was a kid.

9:08Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And I didn't notice they're saying exactly the same thing in the video, word for word. But when you look at it, it looks like two separate people. One is an African-American girl, one's a Caucasian girl. But if you look in the corner of the video, it says AI generated media. So not only has this false claim taken off on TikTok, it's actually being pushed out by AI generated content creators. Now, I will say another email that is doing the rounds is where somebody asks Epstein if he isn't feeling very well. It says, quote, did you eat something bad? Now, I'm quoting this directly. What is that what it?

9:39Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:And we think she means, is that what it is? And he responds saying, quote, quote, thank you for your concern, comma, not food, people. Now that is the screenshot that's going around social media. And it's real, it is. But that's not the entirety of the email chain. The person responds to Jeffrey Epstein by sending a picture of a sleeping tiger, the tiger surrounded by sleeping pigs that are dressed as tigers. And Epstein responds to that image saying, quote, predator on the outside, gentle on the inside, the opposite of what I have to deal with. Once again, I'm just giving you a fuller picture of what's in the email chain.

10:13Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:You can make of that what you will. What's our next question? Is there a reference to killing babies and murdering innocent children in the files? Yeah, I've seen this question a lot. This conversation online appears to have come from this email exchange. It's an email which appears to be from Sarah K. It's FTA00563164, if anybody wants to look. Sarah K was one of Jeffrey Epstein's assistants. Here's what it says, quote, Hi Rich, Jeffrey is asking if you can FedEx the painting he had made of the Massacre of the Innocents to the ranch. It's the large 9x9 canvas that we had rolled out for him to see in the entryway where they are killing babies.

10:50Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:He wants to use it on the ranch and hoping you could FedEx it to arrive by Wednesday. Thanks, Sarah. Close quote. So we're not quite sure who Rich is, but we do know about the reference to the Massacre of the Innocents. It's a reference to a painting. Now there are several under the same name, one by Bruegel, for instance. Now it depicts the scene in the Bible where, after hearing from the wise men of the birth of Jesus, King Herod ordered that all children in Bethlehem under the age of two be murdered. That's a real email, but they're talking about a painting. Let's move on to the next question.

11:20Arick Fudali:People are saying he was trying to start a baby farm where he would impregnate women with genetically modified babies. Is that true?

11:27Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Okay, so there are a series of emails with Brian Bishops. He's best known for his work in crypto, who, according to an article in the MIT Technology Review, was in 2019 working on a designer baby startup. The term designer baby's been around for a while. He didn't invent it. It means an infant whose genetic makeup has been altered or selected. So removing certain disease, causing genes or picking the eye color of the child. The emails from 2018 that appear to be between him and Epstein show Epstein agreeing to fund Bishop's designer baby startup. Reminder, this is after Epstein's conviction for child sex offences.

12:04Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:It's EFTA 01004801 if you want to take a look yourself. The quote is from Jeffrey Epstein, I have no problem with investing. The issue is if I'm seen to lead. Now Bishop responds assuring Epstein that he had always assumed there would be quote anonymity requirements about babies. He goes on saying we can't publicly identify who these are or their parents or benefactors, it would brand the child as essentially and sadly a freak for life in the media. Now, we contacted Brian Bishop for a comment and he said this.

12:37Arick Fudali:He didn't get involved and I never received money from him.

12:41Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:So that's what's in there about designer babies. Now, the claim that Epstein wanted to impregnate women himself actually comes from a 2019 report by the New York Times. They reported that during the early 2000s, Epstein had confided in a number of scientists and others about his plan to use his Zorro ranch as a base in which women would be impregnated with his sperm and give birth to his babies. Now, according to an article in The Guardian this week, several women said they were abused by Epstein on the ranch. The article says that the Attorney General of New Mexico said that his office had investigated Epstein's activity in New Mexico in 2019.

13:18Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:We don't know to what extent the FBI also investigated. The Guardian report says that the emails released last week suggest there wasn't a search at the time of his arrest. So that's what we have on that. I think we've got time for one more question. Hey, Fame Under Fire pod. I can't tell what's real and what isn't. TikTok says there are emails in there about getting infants to suckle on pacifiers harder. Please tell me that's not true. That is true. That's an email sent by Mark Tramow, a professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, UCLA, now and at the time he sent it. He sent this to Epstein, quote, was just reading today that newborns will suck on a pacifier more vigorously if it triggers playback of a recording of her slash his mother's voice than another woman's voice.

14:05Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:Have you read David Brooks' Social Animal? was number one on New York Times books for quite a while. Now at the time Mark Tramow sent this email to Epstein, Epstein was a registered child sex offender. There is no extra context given as to why he would send that. And that's not the only time Tramow appears in the files. Tramow also forwarded several 2010 messages he received from students seeking research guidance to Epstein, who responded to him, quote, are either of these cute? And Tramow said back, quote, we'll see in brackets, you're terrible. That is EFTA 00762250 if you want to take a look.

14:45Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:In a statement to UCLA's campus newspaper Daily Bruin, he initially denied discussing students in email exchanges, then later acknowledged some involvement, though he says the students mentioned were not from his classes and that he did not commit any crime or have any knowledge of Epstein's abuse.

15:06Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:So those were some of our top asked questions on Epstein. And I want to thank you for sending them in and please keep sending them. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok at Anushka underscore MD. But we have to remember with this story, at the heart of it always is the survivors and the victims. Now, earlier I spoke to Eric Fidali from the Bloom Law Firm. He represents 11 survivors and he filled me in on an update in their fight for justice.

15:30Arick Fudali:We've been scrutinizing everything the DOJ has been doing for decades because it's important to remember that the DOJ law enforcement administration after administration absolutely failed the survivors going all the way back from the 90s. So in the 90s, of course, we've learned in the past, when these past few document dumps, that there was very credible reporting to the FBI about Jeffrey Epstein and what he was doing. And it appears from our research that the FBI didn't really do anything in response to very credible reporting, very credible complaint about Jeffrey Epstein's activities, which then resulted in allowed Jeffrey Epstein to continue to abuse throughout the 90s into the 2000s without really any scrutiny, any real investigation.

16:12Arick Fudali:So they've been wronged every step of the way. There's been no justice for these victims, despite their continued fight for decades. So we're looking into every avenue. We researched and actually even filed a lawsuit against the FBI. We're certainly at this point looking into potential lawsuits against the Department of Justice for how they've handled this document dump, how they've handled their redactions.

16:33Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty:But in filing that lawsuit against the DOJ, isn't their response, we're doing our best, we get this information, we're investigating what we can, and don't they technically have immunity from lawsuits?

16:44Arick Fudali:That's the problem. So the United States government, not surprisingly, makes laws that makes it difficult to sue the United States government. There's no shock there. So yes, the FBI and most law enforcement agencies and federal entities and state entities as well have some sort of immunity in the United States where they're able to avoid lawsuits, avoid liability for these types of things. Unfortunately, that might be, it looks like what we're running into with this lawsuit that we filed recently.