Tupac: Day 6 - Courtroom Clash

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0:31Hello and welcome back to the Tupac Murder Trial from Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anushka Matandadati. It is day six here at the Regional Justice Centre in Nevada. And it was a pretty, how should I say, spicy day. A lot of back and forth between the prosecution and the defence and even a witness, a witness objecting to a question themselves. And then turning around to defence attorney Michael Sampton saying, do you actually have any evidence to ask me that question? which, by the way, is not allowed in a courtroom, so he was reprimanded and told, you don't get to ask questions back.

1:02But let's get into the beginning of the day. Now, at the start of the day, there was a discussion without the jury president about prior bad acts. And prior bad acts are really important. Oftentimes, a defense team will say, we do not want the introduction of prior bad acts because we don't want the jury being told that our defendant is the kind of person who is likely to have committed this crime because we've told you that they shoplifted, they shot someone, they stabbed someone, they stole a car, and therefore they have a propensity for violence or a propensity to commit this particular crime.

1:30We want you to base it off just the evidence that you've had today. But that's how the day started, with a conversation about the fact that there has been a lot of discussion about cases where Keefe Dee has been accused of being part of it and then cleared, like the Viggy Smalls case, where we've spoken about drug trafficking charges, where we've spoken about him being previously incarcerated. And Michael Sampson was saying, you know, this is probably about access, but we don't want going in front of the jury. Now, normally, you can't just bring out stuff that the defendant has been accused of, charged for, convicted of, gone to jail for.

1:58But the judge is saying, because you, the defense, have said to the prosecution, everything this man says is a lie. Dwayne Keefe D. Davis talks out of his ass morning, noon and night. You can't trust a word he says. If he's admitting to something, if he's putting his hands up, he's just trying to make some money of a book. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go and watch our episode on opening statements because the whole defense here is basically, quote, my client is a liar. When you say that to the prosecution, they then have the burden to prove that the defendant does tell the truth. So they're using some of these things where he does talk about his drug trafficking case, where he talks about being previously incarcerated, to say, you know, on these interviews, he is saying stuff that is true.

2:35This is all verifiable. This is factual. So therefore, he potentially is also saying other stuff that's true in this interview. It's not all rubbish, is it? But it's an interesting distinction that's being made there. And it's interesting and unique to this case, because once again, we come back to the central argument from the prosecution, which is that, quote, this case is remarkable because Dwayne Key, P.D. Davis, the defendant, is going to tell you himself that he did that. And this is what we've been focusing on for the past couple of days. There's 2008, 2009 interviews that came as a result of that proffer agreement.

3:04And then the BET documentary going, listen to the last episode, if you don't know what I'm talking about. But Dwayne Keper D. Davis appears on a BET documentary talking about the rise and fall of death row records, where he says, I'm finally ready for the truth to get out there. I was there that night. I'm the only person who can tell you what happened to Tupac Shakur on the 7th of September, 1996. I was in the car and we had a montage of that on Friday. Some of those clips of Dwayne Kefidy Davis talking about how he wants to get the truth out there and what happened that night. And then today we continued hearing from Mike Dorsey, who was one of the consultants who worked on that BET six-part documentary series.

3:39He says he's a documentary maker and he specializes in crime. So he's done a lot of this kind of stuff. And he was brought on to verify some of the claims that Kefidy was making, to make sure he was asking the right questions, pointing questions for the interviewer and to do a lot of the background research. And I'm going to say a name that I told you was going to be super relevant last episode. We've been saying it since the beginning and it is Greg Kading. If you don't know who I'm talking about, I think we spoke about him literally every single episode, but he is an ex-LAPD officer who wrote the book Murder Rap, which came out in 2011.

4:12Now he was across those 2008 recordings with Dwayne P. Fede Davis that we focused on so much over the previous couple of days where we hear him essentially admitting to being the architect of the crime that led to the shooting that led to the murder of Tupac Shakur. He was across that. He was the detective in charge. And then the allegation from the defense is that he is disgraced because he stole the Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smith's murder files, published a book claiming to have caught Tupac Shakur's killer, Dwayne Kepi Davis, monetized it and profited of it. Now, Mike Dorsey testified that Murder Rap, the book written by Greg Kading, was one of the foundational pieces of research he did when looking into this case.

4:50and Greg Kading was brought on as another consultant to help verify what Dwayne Keefe D. Davis was saying. Now, we already know what the defense are going to say about Greg Kading because they told us in opening statements. I'm saying this a lot, but really opening statements are your thesis. And then for the rest of the trial, you try and back it up. If you went to school in the UK, it makes me think of point, evidence, exclamation paragraphs that used to get us to do for GCSE. Your point is in your opening statements. Your evidence comes in the trial. Your explanation is posing arguments. So their point was, Greg Kading is a disgraced LAPD officer.

5:22You shouldn't listen to a word he said. He fabricated parts of that book so he could make money off it, so he could be the man who claims to have caught the killer of Tupac Shakur. So by using him as a consultant for the BET documentary series, you've got somebody verifying claims. He wants those claims to line up exactly what he wrote in his 2011 book. So when Samft stands up to do cross-examination, a lot of it focuses on Greg Kading. and that is because essentially the defense need to undermine what the jury have heard in those bet clips they're saying yeah yeah we know you can hear kifi saying this but this was a documentary that was worked on by somebody who'd already put out the book or it was convenient to them that that narrative lines up with what kifi is saying now and the defense is ultimately trying to undermine what the jury have heard from those bet clips so once again yeah we we know the defendant has said it themselves we know you're watching an edited sizzle reel of them basically saying i'm the only one can tell you what happened that night i was there i was in the car but that documentary was verified by greg kading it was researched by somebody who was using greg kading as a foundational basis of their research verification process and greg kading is a disgraced lapd officer who stole files should we really be trusting his word so he starts talking to Mike Dorsey about break-hating.

6:39How much of his work was based off of murder rap? How much did he verify it? Mike Dorsey's saying, yes, I did. I did look at murder rap as a foundational text. I also looked at other books as well that were written much earlier. I did interviews with police officers. I did interviews with witnesses. I really researched this. But Sam pushes back on this and he says, okay, you're talking about how foundational break-hating it is to the research that you were doing and murder rap. Were you aware that he stole the police files of Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls. And that's when Mike Dorsey says, I object to that question.

7:08You got to understand, Greg Kidd was not responsible for the investigation of the Tupac murder. Correct. He was part of the task force specifically for the Biggie Smalls murder. That's correct. And you are aware at some point he's removed from that task force, right? Yes. And one of the things he does is he steals the Tupac file. I object to the word steals. now maybe you're not familiar with courtrooms but it's not the witnesses who do the objecting so everyone in the courtroom well half were shocked and half were laughing and the judge is like it's not for you to object they said no no i don't object in a legal way but i don't agree with that question i don't agree with the word stole because i've worked on lots of crime documentaries and it's not uncommon for detectives to take the files of cases that they've worked on i just i mean i'm not i don't mean like a legal sense i object this is a person i object to I'm not raising an objection.

8:02I take issue with the word steal. Any detective can take case files with them when they leave the department. It happens all the time. It's extremely common. And Sam says, yeah, are you a detective? You worked in the police force. And he says no. Dorsey says no. And he's like, so how can you testify as to what is normal for a detective to do? Are you a detective, sir? No. So you can't sit here and tell us what a detective can and cannot to be fair. You're not a detective. Like legally, I can't say that. I can say based on my experience as a true crime producer for the past 20 years, it's very common in my line of work to come across files that the Texas has taken home with them.

8:38That's fair. And there was a lot of back and forth like this, and it started to get a little bit tense in the courtroom. And Sampt continues, were you aware that there were credibility issues around Greg Hayden? Were you aware that he was ultimately dismissed from his position? And this is when the prosecution object. They say, hold on, This is speaking to the character of a witness who's not on the stand. So Greg Cading's not on the stand. Mike Dorsey's on the stand. But now we're talking about how reliable he is, whether he lies, whether he tells the truth, why he was dismissed from his job.

9:07And this is asking Mike Dorsey to testify as to the character of somebody else. Now, that would be OK if the prosecution had opened up that avenue of questioning in their direct examination of Mike Dorsey. If they'd said, Mike, isn't it true that Greg Cading is like the best police officer ever? He's so trustworthy. He's so reliable. He's such a great guy because you're introducing statements about his character that can be cross-examined. But the prosecution is saying we didn't do any of that. We said you read his book. You got the files from him. He handed over the Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls files and that he was foundational to your research.

9:41But we didn't speak about his character. So why is there, quote, a character assassination taking place right now with Michael Samford pushing for the witness to answer questions about Greg Cading's character? So then this becomes a whole back and forth. The jury leave the room. They go to talk to the judge. I asked no question as to his opinion of Greg Cady, either as to his credibility, as to his quality of his detective work, anything that would allow the defense to then go into specific acts and ask questions about someone's character. So what's the predicate foundation that has been laid that says, I can now attack the character of somebody whose character is being somewhat assassinated here, right?

10:24And the judge is saying, OK, well, examining his reliability is important because we've established that Mike Dolce was working off of the files that he handed over. So the defense is trying to interrogate the veracity of those files. But speaking to his overall character, that can't happen. They have a discussion. They come back. The jury comes back in the room. Then Michael Sampter resumes cross-examination. But as the cross-examination unfolds, we find out a new piece of information. Michael Sam says Detective Cading should be testifying. Now, we always thought he was going to testify because in opening statements, Michael Sam said, you're going to hear from Greg Cading, and then began to offer why he was an unreliable witness.

11:01But today, it sounded like the prosecution weren't calling him at all, and the prosecution then backed this up and said, well, he's not going to be testifying. And I found this confusing at first because, yes, we're doing the prosecution's argument right now, and they can put on their witnesses and make their case in whatever way they want. Michael Samp also has the right to call Gregory Cading to stand and put on the case that he wants to, unless he didn't get him under subpoena in the right amount of time. And Michael Samp came on to Dwayne KPD Davis's case rather late in the day. So it's quite a possibility that he doesn't have Gregory Cading under subpoena.

11:32So if the prosecution don't call him, we won't hear from him at all. And he won't have the chance to cross-examine him as a witness. Now, that would be quite a blow to the defense's strategy, because in opening statements, they spent a long time undermining Greg Cading and talking about why the book Murder Rap and the allegation that Dwayne Keefe D. Davis was the architect of Tupac Shakur's death, which was made by Greg Cading in that book, it's nonsense. He's a disgraced officer, they said. So we're starting to see the shape of the prosecution's witness list a bit more, and we're finding out we're not going to hear from people we thought we were going to before, but this had all created a tension around what we're saying about Greg Cading, why we're talking about his character in this way and it was getting a little bit icy between the prosecution and the defense then the cross-examination goes in a little bit of a different direction so Mike Dorsey is obviously someone being presented to the court as having done a lot of research on this case and a lot of research on the night of the 7th of September 1996 so Sam starts to ask him questions were you aware that Tupac was upset with Suge Knight question mark and he says uh there's different accounts I know some people say he was others say that's made up Sam continues were you aware that Tupac had asked for an audit of death row records to see how much money he'd made them and how much money he was owed.

12:42And once again, Daltsy says, again, I've heard conflicting statements on this. And then he says, but I am aware that a lot of what you are asking me is based on conspiracy theories. So I would like to ask you, what evidence do you have for asking me that question? Are you aware if Tupac had requested an audit of Death Row's books to see what money they may have taken from him? Again, I've heard rumors of that. I've never seen any evidence of it. A lot of the questions you're asking me right now I know are based off conspiracy theories out there about alternate theories of this. And I just would wonder if you have any evidence of that that you would base your question on.

13:25Mr. Garcia, you can't ask him questions. He asks you questions. OK, well, that's fine. I'm just wondering. Let's just do it by the bar. Sure, understood. Once again, if you don't frequent the courtroom very often, you might think that's not a big deal. But the witness absolutely does not get to question the defense or the prosecution. It's not their job to answer questions, just like it was his job to object to a question earlier. So the judge does say, you know, that is not your job to do that. But it sets off a very icy tone between Sanft and Mike Dorsey, which then progresses into Michael Sanft asking questions and Dorsey answering them a little bit before he'd finish.

14:00And Sanft responding saying, you're very eager. I know you're very eager. This was said about six or seven times, at which point the judge does say, actually, let's stop with the eager comments and let's let him finish asking a question before you answer it. And when you said you did the research, what research did you do to verify? Oh, wait, let me finish, sir. It's all right. You're eager. I get it. What does she... Can you please stop badgering me? It's ridiculous. It's up to him to object. I understand that you are the one. You feel like that it's up to Mr. DiGiacomo. I object to the commentary first of all, second of all.

14:33And this might sound like not a big deal, but it's actually pretty rare in courtrooms to be there to be a level of hostility and a level of... I don't know how else to term it other than snippiness. So the date had moved in a different direction. One of the other interesting questions that Michael Samft asked during cross-examination was about Foxy Brown. He asked Mike Dorsey, did you ever interview her or do you know any detectives who did? And Dorsey answered no to both questions. But I've had so many questions from you guys about Foxy Brown because of what we heard Dwayne Keefe D. Davis say in those recordings the other day.

15:02He said to police officers that Foxy Brown was inside the car with Eric Zip Martin, who is the man he claims supplied the gun to him that was eventually fired by Orlando Anderson. And the number one question has been like, OK, so if we're looking for material facts or witnesses who can place him in Las Vegas, surely Foxy Brown is top of that list because she was in the car. She saw him get in. She saw him have a discussion. She is on the witness list. It doesn't necessarily mean she's going to be testifying. Remember, Sugar Knight's on that witness list. And then we get into the much talked about book, 2019 published Compton Street Legend, which was allegedly, and I'm going to say allegedly, penned by Dwayne Kephidi Davis and another co-author.

15:39And I'm saying that because Dwayne Keefe-Dee Davis claims that he didn't write as much of the book as he previously claimed to. Large sections were embellished to sell copies. And this has become a key tension point in the trial because the prosecution is saying not only does he admit to it on tape, he wrote a book about it. He wrote a memoir where he admits to it. So Sam starts breaking down some of the statements made in that book. He says, in the book, on the night of the MGM fight in Las Vegas, Keefe D, with the caveats I just applied, has written that Orlando Brown bought a brown tuxedo because he saw Gary Bonds with a brown tuxedo when he was there and he really liked it and he wanted a matching one.

16:15Did you verify the whereabouts of Gary Bonds to Mike Dorsey? No, I didn't. In the book, he claims, Keefe D, that he was sitting second row at the Mike Tyson fight. Did you find any pictures of him there or anything that could back up that claim? Mike Dorsey? No, I didn't. and then the ultimate question that Michael Samp is always coming back to you do you have any physical evidence that Dwayne Keefe D. Davis was in Las Vegas on the night 7th of September 1996 and the answer just like all the other times it's been asked is no I don't so yeah towards the latter half of the day there was a lot of nippiness it was quite icy in there the prosecution and the defense were going back and forth even the judge you know had to step in a few times we had a witness objecting and then saying to a lawyer you've got any evidence to ask me that which I've never seen before but once again the chunk of the day was taken up by hearing more recordings this time the uncut recordings made by Mike Dorsey so while Dwayne Kephidi Davis was doing his interview for BET Mike Dorsey was in another room recording what was going on so he says he recorded it so that he could make sure they asked all the correct follow-up questions uh where he was being evasive and not skirt around any issues.

17:24That's why he claims it was being reported. In that recording, we heard things today such as, you're asking me who shot the gun. If I answer, that would be incriminating myself. He claimed a couple of times that Suge Knight was protected by the mayor and the police and that the police had very nice cars, which was, it was being indicated that Suge Knight had given them those nice cars to pay them all for their protection. He also refuses to say who shot the gun. He claims they weren't driving around in the white Cadillac looking for Tupac Shakur and Suge Knight. So these are differences to some of the other recordings that we've heard inconsistencies in what he's saying.

17:54And he speaks a lot about street life, gangster life. And he's saying, you know, we were trying to get out of this lifestyle. People like me, we're born into this community. We're born into this way of life. We're trying to become rappers and sports stars to make our way out of the gang lifestyle. And that's flipped. He was speaking to the fact that he claimed Tupac was a fake gangster and he kind of jumped from gang to gang and it was very performative. And he was saying, you know, I'm truly from here. And I find it funny when I see people trying to claim that lifestyle but we also heard in that recording he pd say quote i'm a killer and then ask are we going to go over this stuff before you put it out now mike dorsey testified that he made that recording and he kept that recording but he never ever thought that he would be playing it in a courtroom in 2026 but we did listen to the full recording today so we've listened to that bet full recording which was i believe about two hours we've listened to the 2008 recordings we've listened to the 2009 recordings we've heard recordings from 98 99 i think we're all recording out at the moment and now we're moving on to the book so you've got the audio emissions and and now we're moving on to hardback so that's what we're going to be taking a look at tomorrow we don't know who the witness is going to be because they just won't say although there has been some conversation around keeping people safe and not revealing who's coming next so they can't be interfered with which makes a lot of sense given that kifidi expressed some concerns about the safety of his family and saying his house was being vandalized.

19:17But that's it for this episode of the two-part murder trial from Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anishka Matanda-Dowdy. Please make sure you are subscribed with those push notifications turned on. We're doing daily updates right here from Las Vegas in the Regional Justice Center every day. This is a trial that has been 30 years in the making. You don't want to miss it now. The EFL has a brand new home. Hello and welcome to 72 +, the home of the EFL from Five Live Sports. Aaron Paul and Joby McEnough tackle the biggest stories from across the Championship, League One, League Two and beyond.

19:50A minimum of one week's wage is fine. And we may even write to your wife and tell you what you've been fined if you carry on. And the biggest talking points from across the Football League. Well, we spoke well at Joby and enjoyed working with him. It's my show too now, but yeah, thanks for that. Sorry, Aaron, there you go. Search 72 Plus, the EFL podcast on BBC Sounds. Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and You're Dead to Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription.