260: How Jacqueline Landed Her First $10K+ Freelance Fashion Project (Part 1)

0:01Do you ever wonder what it actually takes to land a$10 ,000 freelance project in fashion? Jacqueline is back for her third appearance on the show and this time she walks us through how a total stranger found her on Google, filled out her project form, and signed a$10 ,498 project without negotiating. We get into the exact pricing strategy, mindset shifts, and proposals she used to close the deal, plus what she did before the contract even landed to help make sure this client moved forward. This is part one of a two-part episode with Jacqueline. Let's get to it. Okay, you just landed a huge project.

0:35Your biggest project ever, is it not? Yes. Okay. Over$10 ,000. It was a really specific amount, like$10 ,000? $10 ,498. Okay. Tell me about the project. Tell me, and I think I and everybody listening, how did this come to fruition? Where did this client come from? And then like walk us through the journey from like first point of contact to like closing the deal. And yes, feel free to look at your notes. Yes. I had to write some notes because I knew that you were going to ask, you know, from when was, when did you have, you know, your discovery call XYZ? And it's been a few months now, so I had to go back and recap.

1:22So she, the client, she found me through Google. Which is amazing. Which is crazy amazing because I have not put truthfully any effort into SEO. Do you know what she searched? Like freelance denim designer or what? I don't know yet. Okay. It's one of the things I need to ask her. She found me through Google, so it pulled up my website. Okay. So she must have typed in something like freelance denim designer. And before that, probably a matter of weeks before that, I just did a whole overhaul on my website. Okay. I changed a lot of it and to make things a lot more clear and concise and flow better.

2:13And so it was great timing. Yeah. I've seen your website recently because we're working together on freelance intelligence. and I looked on it. And one of the things I'll say to compliment you and to also maybe give some tips to other people listening is like, I've seen so many freelancer websites that like you go to it and even after poking around a little bit, it's still like, what exactly do they do? Like they can arguably do a lot of things and a little bit of everything. And yours is like instantly you land and it's like oh denim and very deeply passionate about sustainability and conscious fashion and it's so clear like in 0.01 seconds so that's great because that's what I was going for yeah but I think like and it would be interesting if you at some point get to a situation with your client where you can maybe ask about some feedback but um I did ask her so I'm just waiting I'm waiting to hear back from her okay on that um and specifically I asked her was it my website as a whole because one of the pages on the website is portfolio where she can you know anyone can see the work um or if she clicked on download pdf portfolio and which one was it that really felt like it showed my work.

3:34So I was hoping to have that answer for this, but TBD on that. Okay. But I'm thinking it was probably the website. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's well done. And I know we, you and I chatted about it, but everything I just said, like it just, if I want someone to do sustainable denim, I land on your website. I'm like, no brainer. This is my person. That's what I was going for. So, okay. So she found your website and then what happened? Did Did you fill out your contact form or what? So I got an email saying I have a new project intake form. Okay. And so on my contact page on the website, I have my email, and then I have like a two little blurb thing that says kind of what the steps would look like.

4:22Fill out the project intake form, book the discovery call, and we'll go from there. Okay. So I got an email saying that, you know, someone filled out my project intake form, and I've tweaked with the questions a lot. Yeah. As far as what I actually need to know and to make the form not too long, too lengthy. Can you tell us what are the questions roughly? Yeah, so name, email, phone number, location. It's not specific, so they could put New York or they could put Europe. Sure. Um, and what services are you seeking? What timeframe are you looking at? I think the options for the timeframe I have are like a few hours of consultation, a few weeks, a few months or ongoing or retainer.

5:21Oh, you're asking them what type of support they need, not when they're ready to start working with you. I have that question as well. Okay. When, when I think the next question is when would you like to start? Okay. Options are as soon as possible in a few weeks or next quarter. Gotcha. And the, I used to have the question, what, what is your budget? Um, with a little line under it that said something like, this helps me understand if your needs align with the scope of work. And I took that question out, which is kind of a gamble, but after learning about the price anchoring theory which shout out to amanda russo another fast student she was the one that told me and some of the other girls about it and she said instead of asking someone else what their budget is they need to be anchoring off of your prices and your ballpark.

6:27And that will help them understand that the type of work you do costs that much instead of the other way around. And then being like, oh,$500 or yeah. And you're like, no, packages start at 5 ,000 or whatever the number. Okay. Yeah. So I, so I took that question out a while ago and I added pricing to my website and it's under each service. Okay. So I have consultation, tech packs, uh, product development, and each of those specifies what you get with that service and starting at prices. Oh, great. And I debated about putting prices on my website for years. Yeah. And I finally did it and I put it up there before she, um, before her and I started working together.

7:21Okay. So do you know if she saw it? She did see it. She did. Yeah. She saw the prices and I have different tiers and because each project is different, I have starting at, right? Not just like one. Can you share what the numbers are? Yeah. Um, I would need to pull it up on my website. I think my phone is on it. Yeah, it's right here. Cause I forgot. I, I tweaked, I've tweaked it and I played with the numbers for a long time because it's really, it's really difficult to, I mean, I don't know a freelancer that hasn't struggled with pricing. it's just it's a living breathing beast it's it's yeah it's so difficult so product development I have concept to market from 3 ,888 per style very specific number 3 ,888 dollars so I read yes it's very specific you read about pricing psychology a little bit I read about pricing psychology a few different articles I think one or two books and I wish I could quote the guy but I can't recall his name he talked about making your prices very very specific which conveys that you've spent a lot of time thinking about it and that you just didn't throw out a number, which is what I did before because I wasn't sure.

9:04I was just like, I just need to pick a number, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. 3000 or 2 ,500. Sure. Sure. Sure. And then I listened to a podcast and read more about pricing psychology and I was like, Oh, okay, let's go back and tweak this. Yeah. So it's very specific. Yeah. Um, okay. So product development is 3 ,888. That's concept to market per style. Gotcha. Starts at. Yeah. Yeah. Starting at, concept to sampling is 2 ,993 per style. Okay. Concept to tech pack is 1993 per style. Okay. Tech packs, 999. Okay. Like if they already have the concept and the style and they just need the tech pack. And then each of those four services within product development, you can see on the website, like what all of that entails.

9:53What it includes. What it includes. Okay. And we'll obviously link to your website so people can check all this out okay so she saw that which is great because not every client that might fill out a form goes pokes around at everything some people are deep researchers some people aren't but she saw that um so she filled out the form and she filled out the form yeah and so that was on april april 2nd of this year okay and it's july 12 that were recording. Yeah. 2025 in my house, in your house here in Virginia beach, Virginia beach. Yes. Cause you live close and you came up to record. Yes. Which is super exciting to us in person.

10:32It's very exciting. Yeah. Um, I was hoping maybe we could film it, but that takes so much more. It's a whole other setup. It's a whole other setup, but yeah. So she filled out the project intake form April 2nd. We had the discovery call the next day on April 3rd. Okay. And then we, I sent her the proposal that night. Okay. And we had one more call to go over it. Because I was hoping to implement the Nikki Roush technique of, you know, having the proposal sent when we're on a call together so that we can review it. But the timing just didn't work out. Okay. So at that point, I was kind of thinking, oh, shoot, like I missed the boat on that one.

11:21but the timing just didn't work out so we had another call on April 15th and I offered that I didn't charge her for that because I felt that it was for what she wanted it was a big enough scope that I really wanted her to get the chance to talk more and if you think about it from an even more broad perspective you're meeting someone you've never met online and you might hire them for thousands of dollars I wanted to give her the opportunity to to talk more maybe get to know me a little bit more ask more questions so I offered that second call we had that mid-April and then I sent her the proposal right after that call wait hold on You had, so you guys had your discovery call.

12:19She sent the form April 2nd. You got back to her, I imagine, right away and booked the discovery call for the next day. You guys got on that call. You sent the proposal the same day. Yeah, that night. So she must have had a pretty clear idea of what she wanted. She did, yeah. So I don't want to say too much about it. Totally fair. But it's completely from scratch. So concept to market for a denim brand that is starting from scratch. Okay. So I knew that the scope of work was going to be very, very large. Right. You're building the whole foundation. Yeah. Okay. So you said the proposal on the third and then you, and then what happened?

12:57Did it just, I know you said you had the call on the 15th, but like, were you just waiting to hear back? And then you're like, let's get on our call. so between April 15th and the end of May I so I sent the proposal mid-April and we had oh I'm confused I thought you said you sent it the same day you had the discovery call I oh you're right you're right third yeah April 3rd then you had another call on the 15th yeah yeah we talked through the proposal we had she booked the call for the 15th okay and she wanted to you know ask more questions talk more about it and she was starting to say like verbiage that hinted at that she did want to work with me okay like oh when we do this or when we what your ideas are for xyz okay or when we would launch yeah and those little signs to me say that in their mind they're already thinking of me like because she's saying we instead of like oh when I launch so in her mind she's already extended that to like I want to work with you yeah um but as we've all learned it's not a done deal until the contract is signed and money's in the bank yeah yeah um so I didn't want to get too attached or just like really kind of get my heart set on it because I've had a potential client say yes I want to work with you send me the contract and then they it didn't pan out it didn't pan out yeah um so I took it very very seriously but I I kept some distance from it and we my family and I had a trip planned to Disneyland in between the time that I sent the proposal I sent her the contract so she could see what it would look like because she had questions about that and she had other stuff going on she was out of town so there was over a month about five weeks where I had sent the prices I sent the proposal Was it for that$10 ,498?

15:21So I gave her two options. Okay. I gave her package A, which was concept to market, and then package B, concept to sampling. Okay. And the way that I, I guess, created it, I wanted it to be a little bit more visual than just a Google Doc. Sure. So I made it in Canva and I kind of wanted it to resemble kind of the pricing that you see. Like if you're going to start Hulu or Disney Plus and you've got or Spotify and you've got like these three options. Comparison charts. Yeah, a little comparison chart. Because just like with those, you're comparing it and you're seeing, okay, do I want to pay less but have ads?

16:13Yeah. Or am I willing to pay more and not have ads while I watch Disney Plus? Yeah. And I wanted to make sure that she could visually see what she was losing if she had gone with the less expensive option. Okay. So I think the proposal was a few pages. And I wanted to make sure that she saw that. So I visually it was laid out like that. And I have on my website that if you work with me for two styles or more, you get a 10 % savings. Okay. So I worked that into, I even put like a, you know, three styles times X amount of dollars per style equals this amount and then cross that out. You get a little lower price.

17:06Yeah. So she could see that savings. and then the total price at the bottom. So package A was$10 ,498. Package B was$8 ,100. That's just concept of samples, not to bulk production. Okay. Yeah. Market, yeah. Yeah. And she ended up going with package A. Yeah. And like the price you gave her initially from day one, like didn't negotiate on the price at all. No, she didn't negotiate on the price at all. Right. And because I've had that before. Sure. And it's a tricky conversation because for me personally, if I get too involved, I start feeling like I should give them a discount because times are rough.

18:01You get some type of emotional sympathy or something. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not doing that anymore. Good. Because I need to be paid as well for my time. Yeah. And it does convey a level of respect. Mm-hmm. So I'm glad that she didn't negotiate. Mm-hmm. Um, she, the only questions that she had on the price was how it was going to be structured. Okay. And I offered her a bunch of different payment structure options. Like she could pay all in one lump sum. She could do half and half. Um, we decided on four different milestones. Um, so the initial deposit and then three other milestones within the project.

18:56And this one is going to be about 10 months. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah. Good. So it's about five weeks. She's traveling. You're at Disneyland. Like, when was the moment? Did she just email and say, I'm ready? Or sign the contract? I think you said at that point she had the contract. She did have the contract. She had a few questions on it. She wanted to meet one more time, which we met. We had a video call end of May. okay to one last time I think for her to just solidify I am going you know this person I met online I'm going to invest in and believe in and trust and um she needed to feel good about it and I wouldn't want anyone to pay me if they didn't feel that I was the right person to work with yeah and so i got the email that you know you have a new contract that that just got signed what tool are you using just curiosity um so i use square okay um so i do contract signing and invoicing through square okay and which is great because she can just sign online make it really easy.

20:14Yeah. Um, I restructured my contract to make sure everything was good to go. And, um, she completed the deposit the same day. And I, what were you feeling? Like you got the email that the contract got signed. Like I, I mean, especially considering what you mentioned earlier, where you said you've had some that like they say like yes we're ready we're gonna do it and then it doesn't pan out so this is kind of the opposite right that she's a serious client yeah um I think for maybe a day I was I I don't know how to articulate it I think I was just like huh waiting for the other shoe to drop um meaning like you got the contract and she had paid and you were like waiting what was the other shoe would have been um I guess just something to go wrong in life which is so I've been working on changing that mindset but I have recognized that I do have the waiting for the other shoe to drop um because so many other great things had happened at the same time um I had a very difficult mental health challenge and which you know more about it and so I guess I was kind of afraid all of that was going to come back up again and so many great things were happening at the same time um Um, we planned a trip to Disneyland, which the money for that lined up, just it all fell into place.

22:14Um, and we had dreamed about taking our family to Disneyland for years. This was like a really big moment. It was, it was really big. And, but while we were at Disneyland, I wasn't thinking about like, oh, I hope I get this project. Like, I'm like, yeah, of course I hope I get this project, but it didn't feel like it was out of desperation. I would have been really, really, really bummed if it didn't work out or if I didn't get the project, but I didn't feel so desperate for it. And so after kind of feeling like waiting for the other shoe to drop, I started to feel more excited. Like, no, she, she's a serious client she really wants to do this and she she doesn't check those boxes of like a startup where you're like I don't really know if they're fully invested they've got other things going on um she's in this and so I started feeling more excited and like this is what I've been working for this is what I've I've been waiting for a project of this size and I can do this.

23:30Yeah. Did you have, cause you and I have talked about your experience in the industry and I know you have waves of self doubt. Can I just say, cause you haven't worked at these like air quote name brands, these corporate, you haven't worked in-house have you worked in house in denim at all no okay not even not just name like big names that make people might recognize but like i had a four-month internship doing after fit them yeah and that was it and what type of product was that i think it was dresses okay you don't even remember barely um so your only air quote official work experience in fashion you went to FITM in LA and you had a four-month internship so I know there's been some maybe imposter syndrome I'll let you label it but like I'd love to for you to talk about that because I I know for a fact so many other people feel that and they're like well I can't do this thing or I could never do a ten thousand dollar project because I don't have this these credentials or this background or this experience.

24:52And, um, we just chatted the other day as part of, you know, working together for freelance intelligence of you have been so deeply invested on a personal level in denim and in conscious denim specifically for the last year, five years. Yeah. Extreme. And, and you've been educating yourself and learning and, but it's all just been self-directed um it has yeah so how did you and I believe I said to you I said I think you likely know more about the circularity or circularness but circularity circularity of conscious denim and all the nuances that go into that specific product um better than some people who maybe air quote have those credentials and work in-house and I think it's because you lead with so much passion and you're genuinely just so deeply curious.

25:53And so you're really driven to like find this information and learn and educate yourself on a really high level. That all being said, I think passion can take you really far, but there's a balance between like, okay, I've studied this stuff versus, wait, do I actually know what I'm doing? Did any of that creep up for this specific project yeah not at first okay um like I said at first once I got past that waiting for something bad to happen um I I didn't feel the imposter syndrome at all I felt like no like I am I am ready for this during the discovery the proposal the whole thing I did that's amazing yeah I truly felt like I've had so many discovery calls and just calls with other folks in the industry under my belt that I'm ready for this I feel really great and the moment that the imposter syndrome set in during this project or since the project has started is when I listened to a podcast episode interviewing Benjamin Talley.

27:12He's a denim designer, like 25 years he's been doing it. Yeah. And that's when it set in. And all I thought was, why didn't she choose him? I mean, is he even available? So yeah, yeah. The logic goes out the window. Okay. but that was your reaction yes because she had mentioned him and like his aesthetic and his style and he's worked for brands that she really likes that is like kind of her customer that she's going after and there's so many denim brands out there but they're all in very different market categories Like, obviously, you've got the mass market, like, No Boundaries, and Target and Walmart, free assembly for Walmart.

28:10Then you've got mass market, fast fashion, like H &M's. Sure. All of those, you know, they have, they're not denim brands, but they have denim in their lines. And then you kind of take a step up and you've got Madewell and Levi's and, you know, arguably, arguably Levi's is mass market, but it kind of goes into that brand. But I listened to the interview with him. Did you know of him before she mentioned his name? I didn't. Oh, so then you took it upon yourself to research. Yeah. And that made me feel like an imposter because I'm like, I should know about him. I I how do I not already know about him and I I don't know I'm sure you've had moments like that where you're like how did I not hear about this 100 I mean I think I've I've I know this exact moment yeah yeah yeah and either it might be like right before or right after you sign the contract and then they say something and you're kind of like I'm gonna make note of that and I'm gonna research that oh yes I've had this moment too yeah yeah totally yeah and I just felt like why did she choose me like why didn't she go with him and then like I said logic goes out the window and it's just emotion and I look I looked into him more and he's he's done anything from Kate brand which is a more um like for me would be like aspirational like not quite luxury but more of a designer like anywhere from like 170 bucks for jeans so like 220 or 250 okay um not at all in my budget or anything and he's so he's worked for brands like that and then I get farther along in that podcast episode interview with him and he's worked for all different kinds of markets and he started talking about free assembly for Walmart and I just started thinking wow he's his breadth of work really spans the market segments I mean a$27 pair of jeans at Walmart is not the same for a$300 pair totally and for some reason knowing that he this like very experienced seasoned denim designer has worked on a line for Walmart made me feel like more confident.

31:04I don't know. I'm not sure how they like really intersect. I don't know. And I looked into him more and he does consulting now. So I'm like, she really could have gone with him. Um, but with someone who has 25 years under their belt, they're going to charge so much more and you know obviously my client has a budget and um the reality is is that she didn't go with him and so that's to answer the imposter okay syndrome question you didn't have it looked into this other guy listen to the podcast all of sudden this wave of imposter syndrome came but then it sounds like it got released pretty quickly It did by the time I finished my run.

31:51Go ahead. Because I listened to that episode while I was on a run. Yeah. So I sweated out. Yeah, that's always good. Do you know if she was talking to any other freelancers? Like, did she, like, look at people on Upwork or anything? I don't know yet. You don't know? Yeah. That would be interesting just to, as you develop, you're going to work with her for 10 months. Yeah. I'd be curious to know. But we actually just spent an entire day together. Yeah. Yeah, so, okay, let's talk about that. So, it's July, and you just got back from a trip to L.A. where you went to do an on-site factory visit with her.

32:28Is that correct? Mm-hmm. Okay, talk a little bit about the whole thing. So, in the discovery call and getting to know her needs, she was talking about manufacturing in L.A. because she's in L.A. right now. Is that where she lives? Yeah. Okay. And L.A. And just for context, you live on the East Coast. Yeah, we're in North Carolina, but L.A. is like a denim hub. San Francisco is not nearly as much as L.A., but it's a denim hub. And so I'm like, okay, manufacturing in L.A. would be great. Does that work with production costs and price point and all of that? and around the same time I had a call with another fast uh student Candice Stokes oh yeah been on the podcast too yeah and she had another one of those how did I not know about this moments she said oh have you heard of XYZ company um and I won't share it yet because it's there's info that I can't share yet but yeah um it's a denim manufacturer with a location in LA and she said they're doing something really really innovative and really cool like have you heard of them and so I looked it up and I had that moment how have I not heard of this company do I actually know what I'm doing do I know what I'm doing and so I reached out to that company after I saw that They had a location in L.A.

34:06And I had a call. I just said, hey, I'm in the denim space. I'm really interested in what you're doing because you're completely flipping the denim production. Like it's a full 180. This is before you landed the contract. This is before I landed the contract. Okay. And I said, is there any way we can hop on a call? I'd love to hear more about what you're doing. and so we had a video call um she told me more about the company what they're doing and come to find out she's also a professor at FIDM where I went to school so there was like just a great personal connection um I was like oh I went to FIDM and so we had a really great call and during that call I had told her I have a potential client that I think this would be great for and then once our family Disneyland trip was planned I thought I'm going to be in Anaheim I know that train ride is only 45 minutes so can we meet in person and so a day after Disneyland I was still like so exhausted so exhausted sunburned I spent the day on the teacups and the Star Wars rides.

35:31And I knew I was going to be exhausted, but it was only 45 minutes away. I couldn't pass that up. So a day after Disneyland, took the train from Anaheim to L.A. And that was the first time I had been back to that area since I graduated from FIDM. Which we told that story on a previous episode you were on. Yeah. Okay, we'll link to that because that is a roller coaster of a story yes okay yeah so you were back there for the first time since then yeah all these feelings of like how far I've come and where my life is now um it had been 10 years wow since I'd been back to LA yeah and so I met with the with the factory and And the person I met with, she was amazing.

36:28We, like, connected personally. We connected professionally. We had a really great meeting. It went over by, like, an hour because we were just, we had such a great connection. And my friend, I don't remember who it was, but my friend was saying, like, oh, you're going to go all the way to L.A. just for a meeting when you don't even have the client yet. I said, absolutely, because making that connection and that foundation, those are going to be the decision makers between them wanting to work with me and choosing someone else to work with. And this is your niche that you live and breathe. And so even if that client doesn't pan out, you now have this relationship.

37:15I mean, I see it as a win-win on any level. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how I saw it. I'm like, even if this project falls through, I still want to be somehow working with this company because they're using 90 % less water. Wow. Which denim is, the amount of resources that it uses between water, cotton, synthetic fibers, synthetic indigo. I've never heard of a company that uses 90 % less water. it's typically like oh we use like 15 to 20 percent less water yeah so it's significant um and they have an indigo alternative which is huge because natural indigo just isn't even a thing anymore because it's too unstable and so we had a great meeting and then when my client signed the contract.

38:20I told her about it. And I said, this, like, this is the way that you need to go. So you didn't even use it as leverage before she signed the contract? I did. Yeah. Okay. So, but you just maybe didn't tell her who the factory was. I didn't tell her who the factory was. Okay. How did you, it sounds like, I mean, you had made the comment to the person who said, wow, you're going to go to this meeting. You don't have the client yet. And you thought, well, that could be a good leverage point for her to choose me versus someone else. So then how did you actually leverage that? So I had, so one of the questions in the project intake form asks where, do you have an idea of where you want to manufacture?

38:57Okay. Um, North America, Europe, Asia, wherever. And she had said, she was thinking about LA and I'm like, that is perfect because it's a denim hub there's almost everything we need there and I've come in contact with this company that from I'm a little bit skeptical because the claims that they're making sound wild like this was before you had visited okay yeah um and that I want to see the product in person but that based on all of my research between their website their social media their LinkedIn the press articles that have come out press articles from Europe like that it seems legit and it seems like it would work just as well so I had told her about the company but I didn't tell her the name of the company and then she had two other factories in Turkey that we were thinking about.

40:07Um, and I had meetings with them as well, just video calls, um, just in case the one in LA didn't, didn't pan out. Um, but I, I don't, I wasn't thinking use it as leverage. Oh, okay. Which, uh, I guess just not those words, but I was absolutely thinking like this can help her make a decision okay um so i i was pushing it because i said this this could eliminate all this water it can it gives you production right where you live um you don't have to visit turkey to go see the production floor we would have actual firsthand eyes on the sewing floor to make sure like it's actually a nice place to work it's not a dungeon with yeah no windows and you know xyz so she was she was skeptical at first as well um but I I was really I was really pushing it because I believe in it and I was also telling her that not just from the sustainability or conscious standpoint but from a marketing standpoint of think about how many choices of brands that people have to buy jeans from that the market is so competitive that this can be another layer to differentiate yourself from the competitors because your competitors are not using this technology yeah so that that's another leg up in a competitive market and I she had she seemed like she was thinking about that yeah as well but I communicated that to let her know like this could be just another way yeah so yeah okay so you told her about it but didn't tell her who it was then the contract got signed and turned into a trip for you out to LA to do an onsite visit.

42:18Talk about how that all came to fruition.

42:23So she's going to be traveling a lot coming up here. So before she leaves for LA at the end of this month, at the end of July, she wanted to meet with them in person. And my contact at the factory or at the company, they said like, yeah we're we'd love to meet your client as as long as you're there because she's like I like I like you and I had asked the company how are you deciding which people and brands to work with and they want to diversify and work with bigger brands medium brands small brands and startups and she also said we really want to work with people that are not a total pain in the ass no PETA clients yeah they don't want to work with PETA clients and I said that's great because I hate working with PETA clients too and I had told my client like that's kind of how it's not the only thing but that's also how they're deciding who to work with and so and I told my client she wants to meet with us in person as long as I'm there so that I knew that I needed to bridge that gap between this factory and the client and be that one to bring them together and we can do a million things over zoom and online but there's no there's no true replacement for being in person and both my client and the factory I knew that they would see that as a level of commitment of I want to work with you and my client wanted to meet in LA as well with with the factory and so I flew out there on Tuesday okay today's Saturday today's Saturday I flew out there on Tuesday and we met on Wednesday.

44:33Then after the meeting with the factory, my client and I went back to a coffee shop downtown to debrief and talk about everything. I asked her what she thought about how the meeting went. and then I had left that whole rest of the day open for her if she you know had other questions or if we wanted to do anything else and the more that we talked this is at the coffee shop after the factory the more we were talking about the project and what she wanted to do she was like oh I wonder if we could go try on some jeans at Reformation or at Kate or some other brands and I was like yeah maybe we should just go try on jeans together yeah and we ended up spending the whole rest of the day together oh just like shopping yeah we're doing a lot of of research like what she likes in this fit from this brand why this doesn't work why this weight doesn't work why this wash doesn't work or why she likes this um so we went to a few different stores that kind of were a bit of a range of price point um we went to reformation we went to a designer store anine being I don't know if you I don't know it yeah yeah um a few different stores and we tried on jeans for like five hours oh my gosh and to be able to be there in person with your client like taking notes as she's like look at this I don't like this or I like that this is what what I view as designer or this is what I don't like um is totally different than having a meeting online yeah I was like here's my mood board or something yeah right right yeah and when you have meetings online you can have your note taker on to recap the call but like to be in person And then I'm like writing things down and making notes because I'm like, this is I don't have my note taker.