Unpacking Unwell’s failure and predictions for the live shopping boom

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0:26Jasmine:This episode of Female Founder World is presented by OmniSend. Hey everyone, welcome back to your weekly business group chat episode by Female Founder World. I'm Jasmine. I'm the creator of Female Founder World. Hi everyone, I'm Nat. I'm a team member at Female Founder World and I'm also the founder of Beach Street Swim. And I'm Paige. I'm a contributor here at Female Founder World and one of the co-founders of Benny. The first thing I want to talk about with you guys is Unwell and Alex Cooper's beverage company because Unwell Co., the beverage business started by influencer, podcaster, Call Her Daddy host, Alex Cooper, has closed down.

1:01Jasmine:And at the same time, her media business raised a ton of money and is now valued at$500 million. And I'm very interested in both of these things happening at the same time. And I also want to unpack why didn't that beverage company work? Because I feel like it should have. And Paige, you are in the beverage industry and I want to know if you've got any behind the scenes goss on why this actually didn't work and what happened. No, excited to get into it, you guys. Big Breverage is going to find me. They're going to take me out back. I feel like I'm like sharing the tea. We'll see what I get. Keep up this conversation.

1:36I will try not to. But by all means, this should have worked. And I think like an MBA like case study, this should have worked in my head, at least from what I know. And I'm no expert. But she had the biggest digital distribution. Like it's Alex Cooper, the entire podcast network. Like they're all cracking and unwell in the podcast. then she has like the most mass retail distribution in all target doors like it should have worked you're pairing the digital with the in-person like that's what we're trying to do every day at Benny but I think it really is just a testament to like if the product doesn't work and the product doesn't resonate like you can only go so far with a face or someone a little deeper on the product so she launched with the hydration like plastic bottle there's something about the plastic bottle you guys that just like clearly doesn't work it was prime was like the two billion dollar like whatever those what are those guys called the pauls yeah and then big soccer player i'm horrible someone's gonna be like yelling at their phone did moss i want to say like cristiano ronaldo cristiano ronaldo i sorry boys like boy names and don't know but he's massive he's like one of the most followed people on Instagram in the world had this exact same, all of them, this electrolyte hydration beverage in a plastic bottle, all three of those done.

2:56So she had that. Then she had the energy drink. Then she had the powders all within a year. So I think one, maybe the core product never really worked to doing too much too fast. And three, like, I don't know how, you know, who really converts and has a cultural impact because I think as we go into like talent discussions now with Benny. There is a bit of a difference on converting on e-commerce and converting in store. And I do think that's almost like a different person and persona. It almost goes back to what we were talking about a few weeks ago with Ben Bennett and the center on the group chat and his brands and these amazing outcomes that they have had.

3:32They do amazing in retail, but they also do incredibly well. And I think probably build this foundation with the creators digitally and on e-commerce. I think that to me, what I, my like hypothesis, and I want to hear what you guys think after this is these creators and these creator led brands really need to have the digital arm and the e-commerce arm to really like capitalize on what their worth is as a digital first creator whereas maybe a traditional celebrity can really drive like that target like top of funnel maybe an Alex Cooper is more of like a bottom of funnel like we're really like driving that e-commerce and that's amazing but is that like target is that starting at target and is beverage ever going to be an econ play?

4:15Probably not. That's a lot. That's all my thoughts for now. My thoughts are twofold. First of all, I think that this was just a little too late. I think that if this existed a little sooner and by a little, I mean maybe more 2020 when she was pivoting away from having a show with one other person to her own empire, people loved her. And I felt like anything that she had built at that point could have had a different life. although my second point is that I think really there are few people who have more cultural and digital relevance and impact than Alex Cooper so for her to have this situation just proves more and more to me that no matter if you're a celebrity or a creator your business has to make so much sense to you and who you are and your values and while she does have that background as an athlete and she did partnerships with the Olympics.

5:09And I thought that was so thoughtful and that made sense. I felt like energy and hydration was just too quick. And while it did make sense because she originally would always talk about being hungover and unwell and needing something that hydrated her, it didn't click, I don't think, for the customer. And me being someone who's followed along with Alex since I think like 2018, I can say like when this launched, I wasn't dying to try it. And I wasn't like, oh, this makes so much sense. I see so much success for this. So I'm sure they did a ton of research and did what they could. And I don't think that this is necessarily a loss for her.

5:48Like, I think Nestle is probably taking on a lot of the financial risk there. Paige, you probably know more about that than I do. But I just think that no matter what your relevancy or your impact is, it could still not work. Exactly. I feel like to me, that's the nail in the coffin is like it very much could still not work and I I think these specifically beverage brands obviously that's like where I play you need to find the cultural relevancy and the product market fit beyond the creator like so fast I think Chamberlain Coffee I don't know enough about their story but they were I was thinking this page right they were everywhere and now they're not now they're kind of pivoting into like IRL and it seems to be like wonderful Emma seems to be very happy with that but I don't know like I think actually bloom is a good example marie llewellyn was one of their co-founders and she has like a million followers but very quickly it grew to be beyond mari in a way that maybe unwell just like didn't have that product fit and like honestly the operational chops that they should have it's

6:50Jasmine:nestle they should have well this is what i'm curious about is the nestle of it all yeah is that actually part of the downfall where if it was alex cooper and she did it in-house herself I feel like they would have pivoted really quickly on the format they would have pivoted to like the can delivery because clearly that's like an actual unlock that makes sense I just think that she would have seen that she would have been able to make that switch and I just think that she would have been able to make those changes more quickly and maybe it was the partnership with Nestle that actually just wasn't working yeah I think you might be right Jasmine I've actually been advised this and I think you know take any piece of advice with a grain of salt but I've heard of smaller brands and like these kind of indie brands partnering and not necessarily with a Nestle, but just with larger distribution.

7:34And because your business, even if it's a$10 million business, is such a small fraction of this company's business, you're just not getting like the same like TLC and boots on the ground that you really do need. So it's a blessing and a curse. But it's just like I want someone to do like literally an MBA case study on like what went wrong because I would have thought like check, check, check. You have everything for this to be the next like billion dollar brown.

7:59Jasmine:I'm also curious about the timing of this around just when they announced the fundraise for the media company, because I think to me, those two announcements were very, very specifically timed where we didn't have, it really softened the blow. No one was saying like really going deep dive into, you know, how she failed at this thing. It was kind of positioned by all of the people on TikTok doing rabbit holes as like every, as a shift in priorities for her rather than influencer consumer brands don't work or like there wasn't as much of that and I feel I feel like that was like a very intentional PR move by her I agree I am personally happy for her in this sense because you can really like her and be a fan or not but for her to focus on what she's good at is only going to make her more powerful and she's so amazing at what she does like the media portion the shows she's coming out with she's just incredible on camera and on the microphone so in my opinion yeah like why why go into this whole other category when your talents and her gift truly is in media so I'm like yeah take that investment and do what you're good at you know 100 % and I heard they're actually buying media properties like they're buying shows yes which is interesting rather than like starting and incubating things.

9:21Jasmine:But I'll be interested to see who they pick up and what happens, especially like, I don't know what's gonna happen with the burnouts. This is the next conversation we should probably have around fear and what's happening with the fear founders. So, you know, for people that don't have contacts, we have talked about this on the show before, but Phoebe Gates and Sophia Chiani, who have actually been on the podcast before because they spoke at Female Founder World Summit last year. They are the founders of fear, which is basically an affiliate, you know, shopping platform. And they have been accused of cookie stuffing and some like super shady things within the platform where they've been able to claim credit for sales that they didn't necessarily drive.

10:03Jasmine:And that article that originally came out on Bloomberg, they've had a follow-up article on that now as well, where they're saying that actually the founders knew that it was happening. And so a lot of the, you know, I think the one thing that was left in that conversation that was unsaid was, was it an accident or was it intentional? And now Bloomberg is taking the allegations a step further and saying it was intentional and people internally are saying that the founding team knew, which I think changes the game on that conversation as well. And then Sophia and Phoebe host the burnout podcast with the Unwell Network.

10:40Jasmine:So I'd be curious to see what happens with that as well, because I do think that they might have a harder time booking guests on that show than they had previously. Is the burnout still going on? I thought it had ended. I feel like I'm still seeing clips. I don't know if the podcast is still going. Let's have a look. Yeah, I'm curious. Paige, do you know? I feel like I'm the same as Jasmine. I'm like, I swear I've seen clips. Oh. I think I definitely looked it up because I was like, is it still going? What's happening? No, 7th of May was the last episode. You're right. Interesting. Interesting.

11:13Which I find to be interesting timing.

11:15Jasmine:Yes. Like how much of a mess would that be for Alex Scuba right now? Yes. If they were still. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I'd be very curious to see who they buy. Yeah. It's funny. The last time we talked about this topic, we were in a totally different space than where we are now. And I'm curious what you guys think is going to happen now for these businesses who may have necessarily felt like they're stolen from yeah what happens now I know Benny B-E-N-I another beautiful Benny yeah I know Benny I like I love them I use them a lot through my like bridal era so go plug to Benny what is Benny I don't know Benny it's essentially what Fia okay so this is actually an interesting like little segue because I want your thoughts on this what Fia launched as was and correct me if I'm wrong Natalie but what Benny really is which is you know say you want I don't even know I'm looking at my like specific work bag yeah exactly you look up any product and it'll show you everywhere you can find it secondhand yay yay sustainability so awesome the world has enough clothes um or apparel and it's like a plug-in yeah super simple i loved it i love it so good and it's great for like hard to find like sold out everywhere even if you know sustainability is like the second thought to that and fashion is first and that is i think what fiat launched as and i think quickly saw that like maybe that sustainability messaging was just like not as resonant as it was you know a few years ago and the Benny girls have done some really great content around this whole thing very classy nothing has been you know um I don't even know what the word would be none of it has been yeah nasty I've also seen I've also been interested watching Kristen Christine Christine from Locker yeah uh which had also has a similar platform in this space and she did a video when they launched saying that like Bill Gates' daughter copied my business or something, which I was like, oh, which that originally went live.

13:08Jasmine:Anyway, her content has been quite interesting. I think that she's been very like taking the high road where she's been speaking about it as well, but they must just be looking at this thinking. Wait, I think Benny did put something. Benny did, but like the way that they handled it, I thought was like really tasteful. Like I think that they couldn't not talk about it, but they're basically saying like the mission pivoted, this is what they were supposed to be doing originally and they just like were following the money basically which I have to say I use both Benny and Locker and I love them both I really do I don't know that I ever actually use via no I actually did I mean I don't use any of those tools to be honest I mean look I haven't used it I don't know but this this controversy doesn't mean that it was necessarily like a product that was a not a good experience for the consumer that's a different conversation I feel yeah yeah so what would make me so happy I think actually is an outcome of all of the FIA stuff is maybe some of these like celeb investors backing some of these more independent shopping platforms that we're talking about but on the celebrity so take that because FIA had so many celebs backing them and that's what everyone's saying like how did no one check this literally we need Kris Jenner we need you we need your PR team Kris Jenner to take over this and back you know the bennies and the lockers of the world not my bennie unless you would like to well your bennie too why not yeah come on but on the the uh celeb kind of investing stuff have you guys seen everything with Alex Earl and Symbiotica another port co-op hers yes exciting can you give some context for people who aren't as online as us totally so Symbiotica is like an OG I don't even know when they would have launched you guys I want to say early, like mid 2000s, OG supplement brand.

14:59They're known for their like liposomal. So like they're kind of gel format delivery. They launched D2C. They were very D2C heavy. And in the last year or so have been a lot more in retail. But Alex Earl just joined as an investor. Kendall Jenner, Hailey Bieber, The Weeknd. It's interesting. And Alex, I think, has been getting like the most news of those, like that handful of celebrities as now becoming this like a real like investor business woman what do you guys think i'm i have thoughts but i want to hear yours first

15:30Jasmine:nat you're like resident influencer tell us well i i like we said a couple weeks back i think this is just the beginning i think we're gonna see so much more of this i feel like we always had cap tables that were a little bit more behind the scenes maybe they weren't advertised as much and Now I feel like a celebrity of this size investing is almost like a PR move and establishes legitimacy or maybe people think like so much is coming because of this. Yeah. I haven't like talked about Symbiotica in a while and I feel like I've talked about it seven times this week. So I don't know. I think it's only the beginning of us having an insider look as to who our favorite celebrities are investing in and like the people that we want to be like, what are they using?

16:14It's also kind of funny because it's like the weekend. Like, what are you doing here? Like, yeah, like now it's just every. I forgot about you. Yeah, exactly. And I think now we're just going to see so many people investing.

16:26Jasmine:You know what I think is really interesting is I think it's like people are talking about how there's this shift from creators being. I really love how Jacqueline Johnson talks about this. She started a media business and she also started Cherub, which is an angel investment platform. and she's now kind of cherubish switching or pivoting so that they are bringing in more creators investing in brands, which makes sense. And she says that the whole, you know, mission behind it is creators and influencers belong on cap tables, not just on guest lists, which I think is like a really great way of phrasing this.

17:03Jasmine:But what I actually think it is, I don't think it's necessarily just, okay, brands understanding that creators give you distribution and you want to have them more integrated into your brand. But I think it's like the mainstreaming of some of these creators where like celebrities have always invested in consumer brands and like tech companies has kind of always been a thing that they've done. Now, I think just some of these influencers are celebrities, like they just are the new celebrity. And so I don't think this kind of thing is super new. I don't think Alex Earl investing in Symbiotica necessarily is like a big signal for like the creator economy getting on cap tables I actually just think it's more indicative of the fact that Alex Earl is an A-list celebrity yeah 100 % Jasmine no I think that's something that in the last like the more I learn I'm like wait what this whole world has been going on without us like knowing like the amount of celebrities with like a family fund and it makes sense you have wealth it's interesting I'm curious what you guys think so I was just catching up with a founder who has a big a-list celebrity as an investor and it came about like pretty organically but this celebrity creator celebrity like alex earl adjacent i would say maybe a little bit more traditional celebrity has never like posted about the brand it's a consumer brand and they're like how do we get her to want to post because you would think as an investor she would you know post it once and it'll go totally viral do you like should we be including like deliverables Like, how can that, you know, go the extra mile or does it need to go the extra mile?

18:37Like, is just having the name on the cap table enough? Paige and I were talking about this last week and I was saying it's so hard because if you're an influencer doing a brand deal, you're going to have a contract in place. But then if you're having equity in a business, wouldn't you want it to do well? And wouldn't you do everything in your power to make sure that happens? But that might not be the case for some people. And so in that case, I do think that there needs to be a candid discussion around it because you don't want to leave the business disappointed as a creator and vice versa. You don't want to give equity away to someone that you think is a champion of your brand because it looks amazing.

19:14And then once they're on board, like isn't organically helping. So I don't know. I've never been in this situation and I'm curious what people are thinking at home. But I don't know, Jasmine. What do you think?

19:24Jasmine:It'll be interesting to see how the, like Jacqueline's platform cherub actually formalizes this, because I think that exactly what you said is the tricky thing. Like, I think at this level, I don't think Alex is going to have like deliverables for Symbiotica. You know what I mean? In the same way that if Christiana invests in a brand or Hayley Bieber, like no one's expecting them to post or do a, you know, 15 years ago, they weren't expected to like be the face of it. It was just like the name association. and then the press around that was, I think, the pull and why they were brought on. And then also the fact that she's on there, on that cap table means that they then are going to be able to attract other investors because it's like such a big name and it's just the pull and the cool factor.

20:06Jasmine:But I think it'll be interesting to see how Cherub kind of formalizes this because I do think that when you're going to like the next tier down of creator and even smaller creators, bringing those folks into the business, like that's not going to have the same halo effect of legitimacy and buzz as someone like an Alex Earl being on your cap table. And you, I do think you're going to have to have like very specific deliverables to be able to unlock equity at certain points of the business's growth or like the creator's contribution. Yeah. I think something that I have just started to like wrap my head around, it's actually a point I was going to to share with you guys on the unwell conversation it's really just like the opportunity cost of these creators as well like investing in a brand and really being vocal about investing in a brand like Alex Cooper couldn't be you know doing a deal with Celsius for the last however many years and that's a multi-million dollar deal if she wanted it to be so for these creators it's like okay I'll invest and like maybe spray and pray a little bit but the more vocal that they are like they're losing out maybe on these true cash opportunities.

21:14So it's like so tricky. I can imagine as a creator, like how do I, you know, triage my funds, my time, my availability? It's like ad slots, you know, like how do I make my catalog work for me? The one thing that's really tricky that I think about as a creator is exactly what you said, Paige. Why would I, you know, do this for nothing when I can do a one singular brand deal for five grand and like do that brand deal every month and call it a day. It's so easy to just take that route. But I am very curious what Sherry will do. And I do think it's really hard to give creators, especially of a certain tier, deliverables.

21:51Because how are you going to – you don't want to be responsible. It's just one more thing on your plate to check how many stories it do. So finding someone that really is a champion of your brand in the first place, I think, is going to be so much easier in the long run for everybody. Like, it should be always beneficial for everybody.

22:06Jasmine:I think it's interesting timing as well because there's – I I think we're at peak, like being a founder is cool. You know what I mean? And I think being an investor as well, although I think once you've actually started a business or like invested in multiple businesses and had no return, like that changes a little bit. But I do think that a lot of these creators want to be seen as investors and founders. They don't want to be seen just as creators. And so I think it's actually at the moment, like actually quite a good time if you are a founder and you do want to partner with creators in this way, because I think you You can actually get quite a lot more out of the partnership by just giving them that seriousness and credibility that I think a lot of creators are really craving to be taken seriously in the world of like business.

22:45Yeah, 100%. You guys, you just reminded me, Natalie, I was catching up with another, so I'm in New York catching up with like everyone I've ever met, which has been so fun. But catching up with a founder friend who has a celebrity, like cheap creative officer kind of thing for her brand. And she was sharing that they literally, it's a small team, front of the brand, female founder world brand. she has a basically a consultant that is like making sure this celebrity is doing all of their deliverables because that's a huge thing i guess for these deals if they're missed then the timing is missed and maybe they'll make good someday but like you need it now and who has the time you guys know like we're busy who has the time to be like hey did billy bob post their stories this month like that's a job like we need an intern for that yeah yeah that's interesting that that's a job i I used to do that as an intern all the time.

23:32Jasmine:Did you? Yeah, track it. Also, this feels like some AI could be doing for sure. Yeah. Did you see the Whatnot valuation? I think this live shopping thing is really interesting. Live shopping is such a mystery to me. Yeah. Oh, my God. You would be so good as a live shopping host, Nat. I would buy everything you showed me. I have been asked. I have been asked. You would be so good. Okay, so just context for people. Well, Whatnot is basically a live shopping platform, right? And they just closed a$545 million Series G. Series G? Did we think? I thought we just IPO'd at that point. It's a$20 billion valuation.

24:11Jasmine:And that roughly doubles what the valuation was before, which was around$11.5 billion about a year ago. So that just shows you like the growth of that business. and it's interesting to me because I've been looking for probably the last four years at live shopping and watching what's been happening in Asia with live shopping and how absolutely massive this space is over there and how the US and also the UK and Australia, but mostly the US is slowly, slowly, slowly following that growth trajectory. And I think when you look at consumer behavior very often, especially when it comes to shopping and e-commerce, we'll see things happen in Asia first, and then they'll come over to the US, Australia, the UK afterwards.

24:59Jasmine:And so this live shopping thing has been fascinating. And I have absolutely been seeing a lot more brands start talking about the fact that they're leaning into live shopping on TikTok as part of their TikTok strategy. I saw Jade from 4am Skin. She was talking about how she was going to be starting to like test this out. And I messaged her and I was like, can you come on and like chat to us about it? We'll put it in the newsletter or let's do something. And she was like, look, we're still just, we're still testing it out. It's too early for me to have anything of value to share. But this is a space where I just think if you can start leaning into this now, you're going to be way ahead in three or four years.

25:36Jasmine:Like live shopping now is TikTok in 2020. What kind of brands, Jasmine, do you think it works for? Like would it work for Benny? look yes I think when you have a beverage company you're going to have that it's that harder unlock of converting to a d2c sale you're a brand that obviously retail distribution is a big part of what you do because people that's how the people purchase the product but I still think that it works like I still think it's something that you should lean into and I think it's also the platforms if you're doing it on tiktok other platforms like I do think that they are starting to prioritize live content as well.

26:10And so I think it's going to help you be prioritized in the algorithm if you're one

26:14Jasmine:of these accounts that's going live. I also think like Gary Vee, if anyone is into the Gary Vees of the world, these kind of social media guru folks like talk, have been talking about this nonstop for the last year and are really going live and investing in this quite a lot, which I find a really interesting signal as well. And I think if you're a creator, I would also be leaning into live, like find your live format, find your times when you're going live, think of it as scheduling in the same way that you would think about like TV scheduling. I was speaking with a founder a little while ago who I don't think I've had her on the podcast before, but she was saying that she is going live like four to five days a week at exactly the same time.

26:55Jasmine:And even if she doesn't have like a crazy amount of people join those lives, her brand, her, you know, her little like icon, her, her thumbnail and her name does get recommended like and get hundreds of thousands of views within the app just for the fact that she's live whether or not people join that and she said that she's seen that consistently grow but that she's committed to be live at the same time every single day so people like build it into their day and build it into their behavior I don't know if I have enough to say yeah wow I'm gonna try that we tried it okay we tried you guys we did a tour last summer we drove like literally across canada for a big retail launch we were on the road for like two and a half weeks and we would go live every day driving and like some kooky kooks would join but we had a fun time always but i do know do you guys know the brand they're canadian three ships yes skincare beauty they have been going live for years every launch they have they do like a big live like moment live shopping moment we need to have them on the show jasmine i know they have like a million tips on like going live.

27:59They, I think literally will do like a dress rehearsal of their live. And then the next like night do like a whole live, like in their like home. And it's, it's like a really big part of their brand. Okay.

28:11Jasmine:If you're thinking about exploring live, go and follow this brand. Cause that feels like a really interesting blueprint. But I would also say like live is its own format that requires its own skillset. And it's, I think a lot of the time you can just like go live, like you're creating any other content and then be confused why it's not like hitting. And I do think it's its own thing. Like it's its own format. It's like live TV. Like what goes into live TV to capture attention is full production teams. And I'm not saying that you need like beautifully produced content, but I do think that you need to have like very mapped out strategy of like holding attention for that period of time.