Avsnitt 588 - Halvårsavsnitt

36:17They have guided down the production for 2026. And Fukushima, if anyone remembers it. The tsunami that he took in Japan. The earth. Kärnkraftsoron there. Fukushima, what's it, Kärnkraftverket. After that, it was like, no, we can't go on with Kärnkraft. and even idiot-European who doesn't have jordandals who decided to be able to get our power it's completely lobotomerated if you ask me or if you just set yourself to write on it but it was in at least so, Tyskland began to get down it was a previous decision in Tyskland that Schroeder was pulled with Putin and we could buy gas from Ryssland but then we have geopolitics have shown that That this was, as most of the people with any form of normalization could have had, that it was a decision to put on the power of power.

37:15So it has become very trendy again. But still has not your ETFs taken? No. It has not been created many new power of power. So it has been made of lagers. For it has been very large after Fukushima. so for example Japan has not been out and bought uranium on the market since then but now they have started because the law has begun to start I think that USA has half an hour of uranium in the law so before or before you have to buy uranium and buy uranium and it's a little that's my take when you look at the raw material there are different ways to do many people are on after the question and that can all do and it goes to do blue sky scenario in after the question and how much after the question should go up and hit and hit I think that you don't have to focus on after the question it's much easier to look at supply so if you find a supply where you actually miss then you have a latent squeeze in price that's where you're at then the timing is difficult to say so some say that you're going to buy in half or a year it can come up to the price also if it's a hug 6 but I think that uranium can do a good squeeze

39:01when it starts to be a trend again. And if you look at the market that uses uranium and kärnkraftverk so uranium-priset is not an issue. If you look at what it costs to drive a kärnkraftverk or to drive a kärnkraftverk or to just drift it so uranium-priset is not an issue. We talked about it in a percent max of cost. So if it goes 4x it doesn't matter. It's not a role And you have capital Stack a company It's a state And so it's a very little market And then So I'm going to I'm going to sit on it For I think That it's a asymmetry There I'm going to So This is why My bet Is that The price On Iran Is going up And I don't want to Have a company That the Gruv of Paj Or That they Will Finansier And Take In Peng And Etc And it's fine just with Iran that it takes 15 years to build a gruva live, which is called today.

40:06Ungefähr 15 years. And it has not been done since Fukushima. So it takes a long time and now is the end of the lag. So it takes a long time before it comes a new supply on the market. In-Yed and other countries have already bought off-take-off from Casotom and Cameco. so that a lot of what comes out is already bortloved and then you have hyperskrivels that they start with their own and so that they can drive they can come in, now I don't know with them on after the question because I don't look at the question not that they can increase I look at what what consumer the world just now and then it will see the market tight but they can come in and buy and they are quite and OP-syncs for what they should have.

40:55Then we talk about the new kärnkraftsreaktorer and the SMRs and so on. And there many have said that it doesn't require much uranium for that to drive them. And it's true. But then you need to set yourself in how it works. With SMRs you need a higher aner, you need uranium. And then you need a higher Anirik than what it needs for the Stora, like the Klassical, kärnkraftsverken And for that anirik You need more of From the beginning So it's about 5 times more 4 to 5 times More uranium that needs For the bränsle Then consume the bränsle Mindre and it's longer Yes, then there is another Technique where you need to use Kärnanfall för att drifta också Men den tekniken är 15-20 År ut Så det är en asymmetrisk Jag tror att det finns en asymmetrisk Long take för 0 ,33 % Jag hoppar vidare till Kambi och det har ju du har pratat om Det var det du ville säga Jag hoppar vidare till Kambi Som jag körde De har ju faktiskt för en gång skulle levererat VM verkar gå stabilt Mycket skrällar, nu har det varit lite mer Favoritvinster so yeah it känns som det är bara början på återtåget för Kambi sen min plump här då det är Snapchat som jag ägde som jag slagit ut när den kraschade ner när den är ner 40 % det känns som att bolaget, vi pratade om den lite under året, gjort mycket rätt nu släppte de sina glasögon som man ville spinna bort och få bort från det här bolaget de kändes inte stekhetan nu tror jag att den gick upp i veckan för de hade fått väldigt mycket bokningar alla som har sett bilder på Even Spiegel som är vd där går runt med de här brillorna.

42:49Måste ju tro att han är galen när de satsar jättemycket pengar på det här. Alla vill ju in i AR. Jag fortfarande känner ingen som går runt typ med AR-glasögon. Men vi är för gamla tror jag. Ja, vi är för gamla. Däremot så använder ju alla kids och ungdomar Snapchat. Jag tror inte de kommer gå över till Instagram, Facebook och liknande. Och de här människorna blir bara äldre, mer köpstarka, mer reklam. Så att liksom i grunden finns det en väldigt bra business här. Sen är det lite olika parameter man ska väga. It comes a lot of forbidden for social media and like and it is in some countries 11, 12, 15 years but it looks like 15-year-old or 14-year-old when it comes to do it when it is available and it is not one of the competitors so it is a good case here that the company is relatively cheap they will stop giving out the company to their own which is up all the vinst I look at how to buy again but I want to have some kind of trigger here we talked about the website It's a fund, it's an old Elliot That's a fund that started Bring back snap.com Snap back to reality Snap back to reality.com So it's good that they've got a little press Then it's new affairs Sparky all the other, a little Spotify moment So I'm not going to get it if this has gone 10 times on 2 years now For it was what happened with Spotify When they started to focus on the company So it was my three cases I'm also long snap I'm not long I'm not long, but I'm going to buy one.

44:17It's just me that I'm sitting with all the way. But of the same reason you... Lulad! Of the same reason you've been doing here. I think that kids don't get up and they don't get up. Just like we don't... We don't go over to Facebook for that we're getting older. My second case was Telsat, of course. And that we've talked about very much. We've talked about it very much for the year. For the week. For the year and for the week. I think that it is not that it has been so many for the year in the course. If you want to have a rymd exponering, I think that it is why I am I think that it is an interesting risk reward.

45:05Yes, what had you more? Geo Group, the world's biggest The first thing is a Operator And they're going to be in the field So they're going to be in the field And they're going to be in the field As a fastball I didn't get to pick up No, it had to be the best It was not that I had to spark it out under the field Exactly But the one is up on 88 % I was long from 13 or something So we were around 20 And now we're over 30 Men den handlades liksom De har utdelning Och alla svenska fastighetsbolag har ju gått åt skogen Jag tror fortfarande att det våras för fastighetsbolagen Ja den handlades ju typ av Ebit 6 Och de driver fängelser Det finns alltid efterfrågan på fängelser Ja och så som världen ser ut Ser det ju ut som att de lär få fler bokningar Om man ska se det som en hotellverksamhet so yeah now it was up it was a little Trump

46:17winnare or forlora Trump winnare for now it was more hard but I think so even if the Democrats should have won so they should see in in the top and the top and the top of the top all the people should sit there and corruption will be just So it's after the question

46:42It's a bit sad that I saw it for a while I could have gotten 10 dollars to Here Not like this No And it's for If Trump Can come to the election It will probably do it Sentiment-like Yeah Yeah, all right. You can't sit on the same thing on the fengal or something. But in all of a sudden, it was very good. Yeah, we followed up this year by the year. It's a little on the special-fasthets... ...the play. Yeah, a lot. You as a fast-the-sat. Many people don't see it as a fast-the-sat-bolag, but it's what it is, really. With a fast-the-service. So it's what it is. Then they were involved in ICE also.

47:32the migration and there it was not ESG to be able for ICE was very hard and they also drifted detention centers and so on and so on and that's why they were a little symoderligt behandling but when the värdering of the world so apparently it was not And if we say a short comment Then it seems like the first one has been I think it will be a little more We have a little bit of a year And I Have well My biggest bet is Kambi and Octave Fram till Des And I don't have so many It seems like AI and everything else will be in focus and all of a sudden it comes another just now it's robot focus exactly, we took it for the week so today came SKF or today came SKF, it was a lot of they would start with it, I saw when Apple they had slated their first robot that they would be able to do it so that was the next big topic and I was going to Serenity was going to write a wild about CCXI, which I had to but didn't get into it, I was going to be I was going to be long ago, the kvällen The one dipped the one.

48:59And then it went straight up. And then it went straight up. But maybe it's R-Tax. Spax. Yeah, it's the one. The one you have to see. Now it's going to take up here on the last one. So it's maybe not on the one. But I think that you should remember that it's like. It's like. It's like there's a lot there that hasn't gone well. Look at Microsoft. It's like it's been there on the year. Yeah, it's like it's like. And it's like. that the minnesbolag and the half-leads sector has stamsuged capital from everything else so if you can't get to the half-leads or that Trump will buy a kinesis so that it will come in a little konkurrence I don't think that hyperscalers like Magnificent Seven think that it's skitkul that Bränna hela sitt kassaflöde Sälja aktier Och belåna sig med obligationer Allt för att ge pengarna till Micron och Sandisk Och SK Hynix Och Samsung För det är egentligen det de gör De tar på sig massa risk Späder ut sina aktieägare Bränner sina pengar Och ger det rakt För att få minuskort av de andra Jag tror att Det måste ju vara en väldig urgency Hos Hyperscribers Att lösa den här knuten Att betala överpriser för minneskort Och bränna liksom Alla sina pengar på det Det är ju ingenting de vill göra Nej, det känns ju mer som att det går till att bygga serverhall Och likna inte till det här minneskorten Men en stor del av kostnaden kanske är det nu Men det kommer ju inte vara det om ett år Nej, men Exakt, så jag tror att de lobbar väl för Lite varstans För Kina har ju satt upp typ två stycken spelare Some have become very big Very very short The one is about 14 % of the world's volume But The USA has said no That you don't have to buy it Apple has been able to buy it in the week For that you can buy it I think that if you look at CapEx That they say that It doesn't continue For it will be for big Tal And I don't think that they are willing to do it all for länge.

51:22So you can expect to see that it will be a konkurrence or something that makes it like... And it's probably what people forget, for people just look at the question and the volume. Like when I talked about the raw material here before. But all the numbers you see, SK Hynix and Alla Tjana and Sandisk and Micron and all all the time, the numbers are so much it's worth to find out that you can find out And in my world, it's like, then it will happen. Yeah, the question is about when. And listen, now we're going to talk about the interview with Russell Thompson from Hilbert Group, where we talk a little about Bitcoin and crypto market and Hilbert Group as a company.

52:10Today we have Russell Thompson, CIO of Hilbert Group. Welcome back to the podcast.

52:16Russell Thompson:Very nice to be here. Thanks for having me back again. And we can do a quick recap. Tell us a little bit about Hilbert Group for those who didn't listen last time. Well, Hilbert is an asset management business. The core business is generating alpha returns for our investors. We run, depending on the price of Bitcoin, but we run about half a billion dollars, of which about 120 million is in what we would call hedge fund alpha products, where we get paid$2.20. And we're also the investment manager on the Byzantium Fund, which is in partnership with Zappo Bank. Our flagship product is Basis Plus.

53:01Russell Thompson:It's designed to generate yield for holders of passive Bitcoin on their balance sheet, which they want it to work for them. So in 2025, we generated gross returns of 30 % on our US dollar stablecoin fund and 25 % on our Bitcoin fund. Yeah, so we were quite acquisitive last year. We acquired, I'm sure we'll talk about this later, but we acquired Enigma. We acquired Nordark and we have an on-chain business called Synthetica, whose purpose is to drive crypto native businesses and individuals through on-chain rails into our alpha products. So there are three sort of subsidiary businesses that are rolled up into the hole.

54:03Russell Thompson:So, yeah, it's an asset manager and it is not a digital asset, Treasuries. I think I stressed many times when we spoke back in, I don't know, was it March or February? Yeah. That, you know, we are not holding Bitcoin in any size on our balance sheet. And so, you know, our returns are driven by the alpha that we generate on other people's holding of Bitcoins. and to some extent on our own proprietary trading. And if we're going to summarize Q1, the Q1 report for 2026, the record revenue, we can talk about what's behind the number and how sustainable is it. Could you talk a little bit about the Q1 report?

54:53Russell Thompson:Yeah, well, the record revenue number is not very relevant to me, shouldn't really be relevant to our shareholders. We had an 85 % increase quarter on quarter in terms of the revenue from our asset management business. The huge jump in the revenue on the top line number, I think we were at something like 3.6 million SEK. It's largely to do with our acquisition of Enigma. Enigma is a high-frequency trading business. It trades StatArb. It trades a funding arb, which we're working on at the moment with them. And so it generates a lot of revenue through the trading of those two products. But if you look, if you dive into the Q1 numbers, the cost of sales nearly matches that rise in revenue.

55:56Russell Thompson:So the profitability number is what really matters to me. The revenue, I don't think many people pay attention to it. And, you know, it's a bit of a red herring, to be honest. And what can you say about the company's development? The Bitcoin market has been pretty rough the last three months. How is your development? We're very happy. If you look at some of the benchmarks that we track to, The VisionTrack index, which is run by Galaxy, is down 3.6 % on the year. The VisionTrack quant index is down 6.3 % on the year. And market neutral from VisionTrack is up 2%, 2.2 % on the year. The Barclay Hedge Crypto Traders Index is down 18.44.

56:55Russell Thompson:And it's looking like June from two days ago, closing out June from what's been reported. June could have been the worst month since February of 2025 on the Barclay Hedge Crypto Traders Index from so far the firms that have contributed. In contrast, we are up month on month. We're turning our multi-strat is up around 30 % on the year, and basis plus on an annualized basis is up about 7%. Now, that is considerably less and lower than we returned in 2025. I think I told you when I came to see you guys in Stockholm that we have dialed the risk down on our models. That is still the case. So we are happy generating positive returns.

57:51Russell Thompson:The market is quite difficult. Funding rates are non-existent. Implied volatility in the number of cases, certainly at the moment of the last week, is lower than realized volatility. So these markets are quite tricky. So I think 7 % annualized so far this year puts us right at the top of the tree in terms of outperforming our competitors. So we're not blowing anyone's socks off with our returns, but I think relative, I'm pretty happy. We are in the process, however, of beginning to turn some of the risk up on our models. And we've been working, which we'll cover later, we've been working on introducing some revenue streams primarily from Enigma, which I think will have a material impact on the positive returns for the rest of the year.

58:50Russell Thompson:So I'm pretty happy with where we sit at the moment. Our investors are happy. We've been getting month-on-month increases in allocations, and our pipeline remains strong. So yeah, all things considered, we're in a pretty good spot. And what can you say about the interest of your asset from investors when the temperature is so low?

59:23Russell Thompson:Well, the temperature is low, but when Barclay Hedge, the crypto index, is down 18 % and we're up 7%, I think that we're fine. So I'm not really concerned about investors going, your returns are too low. The problem is that we are in a bear market for Bitcoin. And so that means that certain types of investors, primarily family offices, rotate capital. And so we've definitely seen a rotation out of Bitcoin into gold, then into oil. We're beginning to see family offices to start to buy the US dollar. I'm sure you're very well aware of the correlation of the US dollar to Bitcoin. So there's been a bit of a capital rotation out of the space.

1:00:17Russell Thompson:And I think Bitcoin needs to bottom and it needs a catalyst for that bottom to be strongly in place for it to start moving back up again. And then we'll start benefiting or the space will start benefiting from allocations coming back into Bitcoin. That being said, our investor base is very strongly institutional. And institutional investors tend to operate in a different way. And they're not really so worried about buying into dips into markets because they're looking at a longer time frame. the KYC and the onboarding process with some of these people can take a significant amount of time. And so they're not going to go and do six months of KYC and not want to be in the market for two, three years.

1:01:10Russell Thompson:So we are still seeing assets coming in from our institutional investor base. We did a press release last month. We've picked up a nice allocation under a new structure for a crypto native foundation that want to use some of their tokens to generate Bitcoin denominated yield. We see that as quite a growth area. I've actually just got back yesterday from New York and we're pressing ahead with our NASDAQ listing. The market seems to be completely ignoring that we're doing this and they better wake up quite soon. We're going to be moving forward on our NASDAQ listing. And I met some institutional foundations while I was there.

1:01:58Russell Thompson:And some of the investment banks that we're talking to in terms of the book running, in terms of doing the IPO, are going to be introducing us to some really significant U.S.-based crypto investors for our next trip over there. And in fact, I've got a call with the CIO of a very big potential investor via that network next week. So that's all very exciting and is moving forward on plan and on schedule. Our audit, the regulatory audit that needs to be completed prior to going on to the NASDAQ is in full swing. And yeah, we're moving forward on that quite quickly. Interesting. And you talk about bodding out the market with like a trigger.

1:02:49Do you have an example? What could that trigger be for the Bitcoin market to turn up again?

1:02:55Russell Thompson:Yeah, the problem is that the nature of the beast has changed with Bitcoin in the last 18 months because, you know, much as the crypto native market don't like it, There is now really significant institutional exposure into Bitcoin. Well, significant in terms of the market cap of Bitcoin, not significant at all in terms of if this sector wants to start heavily investing, then all bets will be off. But that isn't happening at the moment. And you are seeing Bitcoin, certainly outflows. We had about 500 million last week, outflows from the ETFs. I think we had about 1.5 billion the week before. So institutions or that part of the business is coming out of Bitcoin.

1:03:51Russell Thompson:And one of the reasons is that there is significant concerns around the global macro environment. And so one of the triggers we need to see, and I'm actually, for people that know me, I'm generally more bearish than I am bullish. But I think that this market is being completely misunderstood as to what the direction of travel is going to be. And I'm nowhere near as bearish and I'm nowhere near as concerned on these elevated equity multiples and SpaceX at$2 trillion. And this market is going to collapse because these multiples are very, very high. Now, as you guys know, I've been trading global macro for 37 years.

1:04:41Russell Thompson:So, of course, valuations on equities are very, very high. But that just does not mean – ask Julian Robertson at Tiger when he shorted the NASDAQ. It does not mean that the market can't outlast you. And I think that we can go significantly higher. there will be a reckoning without a doubt. I'm just not convinced that it's going to be, you know, in the next, maybe in the next year. I think that the direction of travel will be to go higher. So sort of the second catalyst, I think, is that this Fed is going to be much more dubbish than people have got any idea. If you look at the inflation break-evens, completely ignored by the market, we've had 10-year inflation break-evens have gone from 2.5.

1:05:41Russell Thompson:They've dropped 30 basis points in June. Now, inflation expectations are one of the things that the Fed watches the most closely. And so we're seeing the market is driving up bond yields, And again, you'll know, I look to like bond yield rates as being the truth in the market. I don't really look at equities because equities can be so easily manipulated. But U.S. Treasury rates are where it's at. And we're at 10 years at 4.5, two years at like 4.15. They're not particularly elevated. And I can see U.S. Treasury yields coming back down as these inflation expectations start to manifest themselves in better inflation numbers.

1:06:28Russell Thompson:And if you look at how the market Fed fund futures are pricing in U.S. interest rates, they're consistently across the board pricing in a series of hikes now. And I just do not believe that that is going to happen. So that's sort of catalyst number two is going to be an improvement in the inflation numbers. And we've got a little bit of a pocket of event risk in the middle of July. We've got the Fed hearing from the House committee on July the 14th. I think we're going to get a lot more clarity as to what Walsh is thinking there. We've got CPI that hits on July 15th. And then we've got the granddaddy of it all.

1:07:14Russell Thompson:we've got the House meeting on clarity, which is now scheduled for July 17th. And I think clarity could be the catalyst. The problem is that if you look at like Polymarket and where the market is pricing in, the chances of clarity getting passed in 2026, we're in the low 40s at the moment, so less likely than more likely. And I've got no particular transparency on that. I do know, though, that both sides want to get something in because I think it's increasingly likely that the Republicans are going to dip into the November midterms. And I think if we get any Democratic majorities, then probably any legislation on clarity is done for Trump's term.

1:08:03Russell Thompson:So we can say goodbye to anything for a couple of years. So I think that is focusing minds on getting something done before the summer recess, which is in early August. So I think I would say that there's more likely than the market is pricing in for something to get done with clarity. And that could be a good catalyst. And I think that could get things going. But it's set in a very complicated soup of global macro risks, geopolitical risks. And Bitcoin sits right there. It is a risk on asset, and it is negatively correlated to the dollar. And if we start seeing a flight to quality and people buying dollars, they go and liquidate the periphery assets from their portfolio first.

1:08:49Russell Thompson:And one of those will undoubtedly be Bitcoin. So it's hard to really say with any degree of certainty where we go. I think if we're going to head lower, which I believe is still more likely than not, we've had a little bit of a bounce in the last two to three days. But I still think that the options market in Bitcoin is clearly pricing lower. and I think that we are probably going to have a look at 50 to 55, somewhere in there. I think there's a chance that 50 goes and if 50 goes, then we're probably going to be bottoming around about 45. For those sort of crypto natives that are very aware of sort of the dynamics of the market that might be listening, there's a very well-known day count between peaks and troughs in the Bitcoin cycle.

1:09:48Russell Thompson:And to the exact day, we have had that pattern has been repeated over a number of years. If that pattern does repeat, then we're looking at a bottom in Bitcoin. I'm not saying that it will, but if it does, we're looking at a bottom in Bitcoin around about the middle. There is an exact date, but it's around about the middle of October. And if we were still like, trending down into October, then I think that there is a good chance that we are looking in the mid 40s for that bottom to be in place. And that sort of corresponds with some really significant support and congestion. So I think that's the bear case.

1:10:30Russell Thompson:I think clarity being passed, I think the Fed and potentially the US government with, I wrote a, since I've like sat down with you guys in March, I wrote quite a detailed paper called The Liquidity Lie, which really looked at how liquidity drives global markets and in particular, how it drives Bitcoin. Very misunderstood. A lot of people just talk about global liquidity in terms of certain indicators such as M3. And that completely misses the point as to what liquidity, what type of liquidity and what the flows of liquidity are that are happening. And if you look at that, then a couple of things that I look at is the secured overnight financing rate and the ratio of that to the interest on reserve balances.

1:11:20Russell Thompson:And we saw that spike dramatically in October, November, December, which is a movement, that's a clear movement of liquidity out of the financial sector into the real sector. We're seeing that to begin to reverse now. So we're getting some liquidity coming back into the financial sector. Interest rate, as I say, interest rate expectations are beginning to fall. All of those things are potentially positive if Walsh signals that this Fed is likely to be more dovish or if Besant comes in on something like the supplementary leverage ratio or he starts drawing down on the Treasury general account, which I think is extremely likely because I think the Republicans will want to try and goose these markets into the November midterms, then all of those things are going to be positive for Bitcoin.

1:12:11Russell Thompson:And if that happens, then the bottom is already in. So, you know, take your pick from those two scenarios. Yes, thank you. And if we talk a little bit more about your business, you talk about your pipeline. What can you say about profitability and And how are you scaling your business when you get more assets? Well, we're really in execution mode at the moment. As you know, we acquired Enigma, Synthetica, Liberty Road, which is where I came from, was in March of last year, Nordark. And so all of those businesses, we're now in consolidation and execution mode. And they're all looking promising.

1:12:51Russell Thompson:um enigma um we have now got we've just allocated or i have just allocated out of the the firm's balance sheet some more significant capital to enigma and we are likely to start including enigma as a revenue stream on the funding arb and potentially on the stat arb um this quarter It's been running now. The stat arb for Enigma with real money is up 51 % on an APR. And we're expecting the fund arb to generate around about 18 % annualized. Those are going to have significant impacts on our overall returns once we include them. but we are very conservative. We're sandboxing these and make sure that everything works in terms of the process, the co-location, the latency, that everything is – that we don't have any downtime.

1:13:48Russell Thompson:So we're in the process of doing that. But Enigma is looking really promising, and we will probably be looking to launch those two products as standalone products as well this year. So that is extremely interesting. Synthetica, I know that shareholders that are listening to this are constantly, when Synthetica, when Synthetica? Well, I can tell people that are listening, Synthetica will launch in July. We will launch this month. And we have got a significant partnership that we are doing there who are bringing assets to the launch. so we're very excited about finally delivering on Synthetica and opening up the on-chain side of our business to allow crypto native foundations and businesses and asset managers to allocate Bitcoin into our alpha strategies on-chain and that will happen this month and I think you should be looking out for press releases on that in the next week or two so excited finally to be delivering on Synthetica.

1:15:01Russell Thompson:Nordark, it's a regulated business. We have applied for the Mika license, so that is in play. So again, we're moving forward on that in an execution phase. So all of those three businesses are looking promising. So was that the question? Yes, absolutely. My next question was, what kind of milestones should the market look out for? But you touched on those, both with Synthetica and E1. Well, the major milestone that we need to deliver, and we're very aware of it, is we need to become profitable. I did a shareholder update to a number of shareholders about a month ago. With our level of assets now, and if we deliver 2025 returns, as a business, we are going to be profitable.

1:15:54Russell Thompson:Now, we are not at 2025 returns. It doesn't mean that we don't get there in the second half of the year, but our alpha 2 and 20 business is growing. The pipeline is strong. So we will be profitable with the same level of returns with the assets that we now have. Alternatively, if we were to double our assets between now, which is we are talking to a number of significant strategic investors, They could easily do that if we doubled our assets between now and we generated our expected returns, which in basis plus is between 15 and 18 percent annualized. Obviously, we did much higher than that in 2025, but that's our expected number.

1:16:40Russell Thompson:I would expect us to hit those numbers this year. If we were to double assets from here, we would be profitable. So we need to be profitable. And that is the major milestone that the market should be looking out for. And clearly, despite it being ignored and discounted by the market, the Nasdaq is going to be a huge step forward for Hilbert. This is going to open up access to both the American capital markets. But even more importantly, it's going to allow us to generate, get investments, build AUM out of firms in the US that are only mandated to deal with US firms. And quite frankly, even if they're not mandated to deal with US firms, that is the obvious preference that these people want to do.

1:17:33Russell Thompson:And the level, the pool of capital we're talking about there is really significant. So that's something that is going to be a real significant milestone for us. Myself and Bernali will be back in New York in October. We will have by then finalized which investment banks we're going for. We're going to have those banks are going to be covering us with research. And we will start getting the Hilbert name out there into the U.S. institutional market really significantly. And the second thing, which I don't think people realize, is there is a premium here on a dual listing. Investors that are in Hilbert are going to benefit when we do this from the NASDAQ US premium.

1:18:19Russell Thompson:And so the value of the business, if nothing else changes, should materially increase from doing our NASDAQ listing. So, you know, that's an important milestone. And clearly, getting profitability in the areas of the business outside of asset management, because asset management is already profitable. So we need Enigma, which I firmly believe will be profitable quite soon, and also Thinthetica. I think that that will be profitable this year. And so that really needs Nordark to come to the party for 2027. And then all areas of the business are going to be contributing. So, you know, those are the individual milestones and the big picture milestones that we are focused on.

1:19:07Great. Sounds like we have a lot to look forward to.

1:19:11Russell Thompson:Yeah, look, as I say, like over and over again, this stuff does not happen overnight. I know that we have got some frustrated long-term shareholders. Hilbert version 2 is nothing like Hilbert version 1. We have now got a very strong board with real proper corporate oversight. We've got strong pipeline. We've got a really good management team. We've got people like Anna Dinescu, who's running business development with Ashley Moore. We've got Tom Bowles, who's our CTO, who is running all of our AI, machine learning, all of our quantitative signals. Obviously, we've got Benali. We have a lad who is an absolutely super well-qualified COO.

1:20:02Russell Thompson:We've got a very strong team that are looking to deliver. But, you know, it takes time. It does not happen in a week or in a month. And, you know, I don't know if you're going to ask me about the share price, but I don't watch the share price. I don't really care what the share price is doing today or on Monday or on Tuesday of next week. I'm focused on delivering shareholder value in the medium term. And what I would say to shareholders is, look at where the share price is this time next year or even before that. That's what I'm focused on. I'm focused on the medium term building assets. And from my point of view, my remit, I'm focused on delivering returns.

1:20:47We have to keep generating decent, positive returns for our investors.

1:20:52Russell Thompson:We will keep doing that. Our asset management team is highly qualified. We've got very good risk management controls. We've got really strong portfolio managers. We will keep doing that. And that's what I'm focused on. And, you know, the share price is going to take care of itself over time. Great. Right. Russell Thompson, thank you very much for coming to the Fill or Kill podcast. And we will have you here again, maybe in the autumn to catch up. Yeah, I'll come to Stockholm again and we can sit down and discuss things in a bit more detail, like face to face. I enjoyed our last meeting in Stockholm.

1:21:32Russell Thompson:It was great. So did we. And we're looking forward to having you back. It's very exciting, all of this. Okay. All right. Well, nice to speak to you guys. Yeah, have a good vacation. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. We must have a round of here Sommaren kallar So then we're back with a lot of A few minutes here next week Again, will you say any of the main meaning In the abrupt end of the break? I think that you should hold on from a half-lead And look at other things That have been a bit of a deal Smart We have to thank you for being in media And our here are the clip We have a risk claim, I own Cumbi, Bonex Octave is what I'm talking about today.

1:22:19I'm talking about it. I'm talking about it. I'm talking about it. We talked about it. Snapchat, Kambi.

1:22:29Abseller. Abseller, personalis, Compass, Unicure. Unicure. What have we mentioned? What have we mentioned in the beginning? Oljebolagen has sold. I have no silver just now. No, it's not that. Snyggt! But come back all we talked about here is Phil and Kill, our own thoughts and we're going to see it as underwriting and inspiration. It's absolutely not financial aid. Over and out!

1:23:14a party.