Coyote vs. Acme and The Rocky Horror Picture Show | #1080

18:45Adam Kempenaar:I do hope more people see it. I hope the company that bought it, Ketchup Entertainment, I hope that they are getting their money back and more. It would only be fitting for this film. And yes, I was surprised that it could get me to think about Wile E. Coyote any differently than I did previously as a kid or even just enough to sort of hang a movie on and hang the plot on. But you're right with what you're talking about here, Josh, because one of the other aspects we never would have thought about as a kid, and this movie makes us now consider, is since we saw, or since I certainly saw Wile E.

19:27Adam Kempenaar:Coyote as such a loser, it never occurred to me that maybe some of the equipment was letting him down. It was always I was I was taking always the side of Acme Corporation, even as a kid. No, it couldn't be the equipment. Of course, it's Wile E. Coyote. Now, maybe the animators were also then nudging us a little bit in that direction because that was part of the humor and part of the dynamic in the relationship. But I think there is also something a little bit more provocative there, at least that this movie wants us to consider. Because now when we watch this film, even at the beginning, Josh, in those first 20 minutes or so that you were speaking to, I found myself even knowing a little bit about the backstory here.

20:18Adam Kempenaar:Even when the equipment was failing him, I still was in my childlike mindset or an adult like mindset, just accepting the capitalist structure under which we all live and saying, well, that's just the way things are. and the the corporation the equipment probably all works just like it should and the person using it's probably user air and if it's not user air well what's the point in fighting it i just i immediately even as a viewer i took on the mindset of will forte's character that there was no point in fighting it and so this movie does somehow coyote versus acme does make you think in a way you you maybe haven't thought as much before that we just take, we take these things for granted far too often, the system that we do live under.

21:14Josh Larsen:Absolutely. And to connect it to, you know, the Warner brothers of it all. And this Wile E. Coyote is standing in for consumers getting ripped off. I have to imagine that real world scenario is that this is a good movie to your point that deserves an audience, deserves a large audience, a family audience that those subscribers who are paying, what is it? Is it HBO Max now? What is Warner Brothers calling it? They change the name all the time. Whatever their streaming service is, presumably you're paying monthly and the trade-off is like you're getting good original content, right? And to your point about shelving it, they made a choice to save their own money to withhold product from the consumers that the consumers have already paid for.

22:01Josh Larsen:So there's just so many amazing ways this connects to the real world. The last thing I just want to cite on this is the slogan. Again, I know a lot of hands were on the screenplay before Sammy Birch, who got the final credit. Maybe this is from Birch, but the slogan for Acme is just genius for where we're living today. We're a company of family values that values its family of companies. Of companies.

22:26Adam Kempenaar:That says it all. Josh, the line of the film, the line of the decade, the line of our society, it made me laugh harder than any other thing in the movie. And the best thing about it is that when that is said, and if people haven't seen the movie, I just want to make sure that you heard that right. We're a company of family values that values its family of companies. So good. It is as if the PR people who write that kind of nonsense and they all say that kind of nonsense. Of course, a company of family values. Yes. And if you work for a company that starts talking like that, that starts talking about how we're one big family, that is when you know it's time to jump ship.

23:16Adam Kempenaar:Okay. Just so you know.

23:18Josh Larsen:Or at least double check your benefits.

23:21Adam Kempenaar:Yes, you need to. That line is so good. And the best part about it is, is the footage on the screen that accompanies it is jet planes shooting other jets out of the sky. You know, the height of empathy and compassion is what accompanies that line. It just nailed me. This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture East. That's with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like, wait. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Kewpie mayo. It's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle.

24:02Adam Kempenaar:You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake. Because this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Kewpie only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers. Some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Never tried it?

24:34Adam Kempenaar:Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. QP, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem? Running a business is hard enough. Don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. That's software overload. Odoo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR. Fully integrated, easy to use, and built to grow with your business. Thousands have already made the switch.

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26:03Adam Kempenaar:Oh, and it is completely ad-free. Yes, I said it, ad-free. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Trial eligibility varies, terms apply, cancel anytime. Hey, this is Kevin.

26:19Josh Larsen:This is Joe. And this is Nick from Hey Jonas.

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26:56Adam Kempenaar:But we're not done yet. We need your help. Together, let's bring every warrior home. Join the fight to end childhood cancer at HyundaiWarriors.com or ask about Hope on Wheels at your local Hyundai dealer. I do want to go back real quick to something about Roadrunner. What I said when I was comparing Wile E. Coyote and how the movie challenged a preconceived notion. because that scene, I think it's the scene where we discover that now Acme is determined. Maybe it's the one where Will Forte and crew are trying to subpoena Roadrunner. I can't remember, but it also might be the one where the company is trying to catch Roadrunner.

27:42Adam Kempenaar:And we see Roadrunner scampering across the desert and between the way the animation portrays the body moving through time and space. And then we get a close-up of Roadrunner's face. Now, it's entirely possible, Josh, that we used to get a copious number of close-ups in the cartoon. But I don't remember that. I don't remember ever really identifying with Roadrunner in that way. And seeing its face, and even though the expression, I don't know that Roadrunner's expression ever actually changes, but what I associate with Roadrunner in that moment certainly changes. And what I associated watching it was joy, a pure visceral pleasure in its own movement.

28:40Adam Kempenaar:And that's where you do get a sense that Roadrunner is almost mythical. This creature that is enjoying its own existence and the way it moves through space. And in that way, it becomes a little bit disheartening that all Wile E. Coyote wants to do is get it on a plate and eat it. But then at the same time, it also justifies the quest, the fact that that it warrants that Roadrunner is so such a transcendent figure that that Wile E. Coyote is is going to pursue it to whatever ends it takes, because it is such a beautiful figure. The fact that I'm watching Coyote versus Acme and having that reaction to it, certainly something I never felt watching the cartoon.

29:37Josh Larsen:Well, and that's why Roadrunner needs Wiley, right? To be able to achieve that level of beauty, you have to have a pursuer, right? You have to have something pursuing you. And I do wonder if you could say that the understanding of that dynamic for these two characters changes by the end of the film compared to what it, maybe it doesn't quite so much for Wiley, but I think it might a little bit. I'm glad you started bringing up the visuals because we absolutely have to spend time on this. as this combination of live action and animation, the director here, Dave Green. And I think the filmmaking team understands not just we have to make this work, but choosing this form opens up the possibilities.

30:23Josh Larsen:It goes back to the possibilities of escalating the joke. Now they think they can escalate, to your point, space, an understanding of space, understanding of time. my um my memory of those scenes of roadrunner running in the desert is that it's in the actual desert right and so clearly roadrunner is this old school 2d animated figure the the location is actual location and then there's a merging it seems like of the dust and smoke roadrunner creates while running along that's somewhere in a good uncanny valley in between it kind of it kind of makes it make sense that this 2D figure is in this actual locale.

31:08Josh Larsen:And so much of the movie is seamless in this way. Little touches like when we encounter Daffy Duck, who starts, as Daffy Duck tends to do, lose his mind, bouncing literally off the corners of the frame, of the screen. Like he's trapped by the mise-en-scene. Just like little bits like that are where they're taking the opportunity that this particular rarely used format were in, you know, brilliant Roger Rabbit territory here. What does that allow? And I think visually they take such great advantage of that. It's one of the other delights of the film.

31:48Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, absolutely. I think the way you framed it in terms of merging these two worlds is brilliant. It's integrated seamlessly and the attention to detail is something you can't help but notice, including even in scenes such as when the real world they're approaching or they've been given a tip to drive down to scary road drive. and then we see the sign and it says scary road drive and because it's a scary road there's a there's a cartoon web and a spider and what do we see another spider pulling a knife on on another spider right so the that speaks to what you've said earlier too is it it's a little bit of a heightening of the joke or adding on.

32:42Adam Kempenaar:Not that, not that in this case, there's necessarily a joke to begin with. I guess the joke is that it's called scary road drive, which is just so silly. And we're going to have a spider crawling on the sign. And then you add that on top of it. Right. And it totally makes it, it makes it instantly hilarious. And those kinds of touches, if you look for them, I'm sure Josh, and it didn't help that I got to the theater a little bit late and I was sitting there with Quinn and Connor and we ended up in the front row. So I haven't watched a movie in the front row. I don't remember the last time I watched a movie in the front row.

33:17Adam Kempenaar:I literally don't remember. I might have been in junior high. But I think there's probably a visual gag like that in almost every scene, in almost every cut in this film. And one of those that I'll also mention, because there are a few more bits that I think we just have to single out here. And not that this is a small one or one you really have to be paying attention to, but I'm watching the scene. It does speak to how the world is integrated so well. The scene in the law firm, Avery Jones and Maltese, which I knew that had to be a reference. It had to be an Easter egg to something. And I figured Jones was Chuck Jones.

34:01Adam Kempenaar:And it turns out Avery and Maltese are also references to animators. And Maltese may be a double reference to the Maltese Falcon 2 with Peter Lorre, who is a character in this film. But when we see at one point all the law books behind one of the characters and it's just like shelf after shelf of Anvil law, as if there's that much case study on Anvil law in this world, it really is so right on.

34:35Josh Larsen:Will Forte is just perfect because he manages the comedy, which you'd expect. But also, I mean, there's a bit of an arc to his character that actually works and goes along parallel with Wiley's a little bit. John Cena, I thought it's kind of at this point, you almost expect John Cena to be in something like this and he's fine. And then he gets that exchange with Tweety where I'm like, okay, John Cena. No, that's where he knows. You win.

35:04Adam Kempenaar:that's yeah that that's for the oscar reel john cita there you go that scene oh you taught utah like that's it you just need that one line so it's so good and and forte i just want to add real quick yeah i agree with you that it's a really good performance and i think the reason why he's a good actor he's a very good comedic actor but you think of him or i at least immediately think of him going back to snl and all the losers that he played on snl and this character is kind of a loser like wily coyote and they were so over the top and you think he might bring that here he really embellishes those characters and that makes sense for sketch comedy on snl a movie is obviously a different thing a cartoon movie is obviously a different thing and here he he plays it so smartly he doesn't have to add any whiny affect to this character to the voice he doesn't have to embellish him in terms of his physicality by making him any less imposing or anything like that.

36:06Adam Kempenaar:He just has to be this character. And that's what he is. Mr. Coyote. Coyote. Coyote. All right. Well, how can I help you?

36:19Josh Larsen:He's almost in Nebraska mode. Honestly, I think of a line he says, explaining about his ineffectiveness as a lawyer, he says it is really super easy to lose at one point. And he means it and somehow finds like sadness, but also an acceptance with that to the character, which is way more than you're going to expect in something like this. Right. But I mean, in terms of putting in the hours, we probably have to credit the vocal work here of Eric Bauza, who once I looked up all the characters that Bauza is doing, which apparently he's done work um in other projects as some of these voices but he is bugs bunny charlie dog daffy duck who i mentioned tweety who i mentioned elmer fudd you mentioned gossamer porky pig foghorn leghorn and you know again my memory is a little hazy on some of these characters it's been many years but as far as i could tell man bauza is dead on he is um and And more importantly, correctly playing each moment as they're needed for this movie.

37:26Josh Larsen:So that's what really matters in terms of Coyote versus Acme. I'm just going to give you two more bits that slayed me.

37:36Adam Kempenaar:One more goes to Cena, which is after his opening statement in court, how does he conclude it? God bless America. God bless the troops. which isn't even so much his delivery which is perfect it's the writing the fact that his character would say that and it goes over as well as it does just just a perfect little bit of satire there and when will forte when his character kevin avery cites precedent and the precedent which is perfectly dead on in this context. He's citing precedent of a job, saying that this actually is a job and the precedent is Sylvester v. Gonzalez. And you have to, for a second, think about it.

38:31Adam Kempenaar:Just for one second, you have to go, yeah, I get it. I know who Sylvester and Gonzalez is in this context. And just there are so many moments like that that that speak to how clever this film is. You add that onto the attention to detail visually as well onto the satire. And this is a winner.

38:54Josh Larsen:So do we have our I mean, we've got a ways to go and there's some good looking animated films coming up. But do we potentially have our animated film of the year or is this not considered? we're going to have to do some hashing out of where a movie like this falls in terms of end of year honors. Is it an animated film?

39:15Adam Kempenaar:I could see, let me put it this way, I could see people who have made 100 % animated films being very upset that this movie is in their category, but I would consider it an animated film. There are animated elements in every scene, aren't there? In probably every frame or close in almost every frame.

39:37Josh Larsen:Close. There might be a few with Forte and his co-workers where there's not. But again, to your point, you know, it's moving fast. I wouldn't be surprised if we look in the background of those and there's a little gag somewhere.

39:48Adam Kempenaar:Right. Coyote vs. Acme is out now in wide release if you see it. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Tell us your favorite gag, visual, or otherwise feedback at filmspotting.net.

40:00Josh Larsen:Adam, let's take a minute to thank the Film Spotting family, their membership. That's the largest support for the show that we have. It does keep us doing what we've been doing for over 20 years. This week, we want to thank family members Michael Brantner in Kiel, Germany, and Jared Williams in Dallas, Texas. Michael shared this, When still a student of language, culture, and media studies in Flensburg, I looked for a film podcast and yours came up in some list. I was impressed by the high quality of your discussions, while most other film podcasts I found, especially the German ones sounded like two guys talking without any preparation at their kitchen table.

40:38Josh Larsen:One of the earliest reviews I remember is American Sniper, a movie I hated while you were quite positive.

40:43Adam Kempenaar:Two things real quick. Yep. Film spotting has been recorded over 21 plus years at a lot of different tables. This is true. In a lot of different places. I don't think it's ever been recorded at a kitchen table. And don't you put that on me, Ricky Bobby, American Sniper, two out of five stars by Adam company.

41:01Josh Larsen:I was going to say, I don't remember. I'll take the hit for liking it. I did. I think I was like three out of four. Maybe that is quite positive, but yes, a good point of order there. I'm trying to think now, how have we not done a kitchen table? Certainly during the pandemic, did you come over once and we did a janky, like a sideboard we pulled into the middle of my office?

41:27Adam Kempenaar:Yes. Yes. Okay.

41:29Josh Larsen:Yeah. And then I think that's probably the closest we've ever come.

41:32Adam Kempenaar:Because there was a time in the suburbs where we actually lived only like 15 minutes from each other.

41:38Josh Larsen:That's right.

41:39Adam Kempenaar:And we recorded at least once at your house. I don't remember why. Not a kitchen table, though. Not a kitchen table, though.

41:46Josh Larsen:A random table. All right, Michael. A random table, indeed. Michael also says, Then came kids and a full-time job, and I became less of a cinephile for some years because I simply didn't have the time for it anymore. So at some point I decided to stop listening because I wasn't going to watch the movies you spoke about anyway. But now that the kids are older, I have resurrected my hobby and I am glad to hear that the both of you are still doing this and that the high quality hasn't declined at all. Michael credits Fight Club with becoming a cinephile.

42:17Adam Kempenaar:Thank you, Michael. I don't know for sure about Jared, but I know that Michael is very active in the Film Spotting Family Discord and we appreciate all of his contributions. Jared writes, I found you via the 2019 Top 10 list. It's where I first learned about Portrait of a Lady on Fire. And Michael Phillips rightfully supported Trey Edward Schultz's Waves. I love the episodes where there is a draft or when Adam and Josh disagree. A movie I credit with becoming a cinephile, Roma. A favorite book about movies or moviemaking is Spike, a great coffee table book. That's a career-spanning monograph of Spike Lee's filmography featuring photos by his brother, David Lee.

42:54Josh Larsen:I would recommend Spike, although you have to be okay if you're putting it on a coffee table in your main room with hot pink. The whole thing, just bright hot pink. It's a beautiful cover. I think the lettering's in gold. But yeah, be ready for that. That is a good book recommendation. Jared, thank you. And thank you, Michael, as well for joining the family and, of course, for listening. Jared is on Letterboxd at Jared Williams.

43:22Adam Kempenaar:We do encourage you, if you are interested in supporting the show, to go to filmspottingfamily.com to learn about all the benefits. Those benefits include getting to listen early and ad-free. And I'll just say this. We know that you hear a fair number of ads in the show, but it has been a long time since you have heard. I'm not going to get into the weeds, but I'm just going to say it's been a long time since you've heard host-read ads in the show. And that does tell you that we're not kidding when we say that the biggest source of support for the show is membership. We appreciate every single one of our members, and we try to show that appreciation by doing things like giving you monthly bonus shows, like playing trivia spotting, which we are doing here in September.

44:12Adam Kempenaar:The monthly bonus show for August had a really fun conversation about Kiyoshi Kurosawa's cure from 1997. That's in your family feed. But trivia spotting coming up just next week as we're taping this Thursday, September 17th. If you're a family member who hasn't signed up, there is still time to do that. If you don't know how to do that, just email the show and we'll tell you how. And here's the good part about this, Josh. Not only have I secured myself and you and Sam and Michael Phillips, as we previously announced, but Mariah Gates is going to play trivia spotting on the 17th. So we'll all lose, but okay, go on.

44:51Adam Kempenaar:Exactly. We're sunk. Film spotting SVU hosts Jordan Hoffman and Matt Singer are also going to play. So we've got a good group of captains in store.

45:03Josh Larsen:Well, what I haven't told you, Adam, is, you know, I haven't been able to play the last few trivia spottings because the timing didn't work out. I was over in Scotland. I was not getting a master in the masters in theology in the arts. I was actually just boning up on my movie trivia for nine months so I can come and have a triumphant return on Thursday, September 17th.

45:23Adam Kempenaar:It's finally here, Josh, in select cities at Regal Cinemas this weekend, starting September 11th. You can see Oasis, Don't Look Back in Anger. That song, Don't Look Back in Anger, is a song I did bring back from London when I studied there. And I'm not going to say force because I can't force anybody to do anything. But I did convince through playing it at the coffeehouse with my lead singer. I convinced my band in college to perform that song as a band. And we even played it recently at our 30th anniversary performance on campus. Love Oasis. Love the album. What's a story? Morning glory did not get a chance to see the brothers reunite on stage.

46:10Adam Kempenaar:So seeing this concert film on the big screen at a Regal Cinema, that's the closest I'm going to get to ever seeing, maybe ever seeing Oasis Live and certainly the closest I'm going to get to enjoying that concert tour. Can't wait for it. And you may get to see it as well and see it for free with Regal Unlimited, the all you can watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. Yes, Regal is offering our listeners endless movies for less. All you have to do is sign up using the code filmspot26 and you get 15 % off. You can see any standard 2D movie anytime with no blackout dates or restrictions.

46:56Adam Kempenaar:And you don't just save money on tickets. You also save on snacks. You get 10 % off all non-alcoholic concessions. Sign up now in the Regal app or at the link in our description and use code filmspot26. That's FilmSpot26 to get 15 % off. well you got caught with a flat well how about that well babies don't you panic by the light of the night it's time now for our tim curry tribute a blind cow review sacred cow for you i suppose as a cult classic as a midnight movie hall of famer we can say that the Rocky Horror Picture Show has achieved sacred cow status, but blind spotting for me, as I have now just seen it for the first time.

47:47Adam Kempenaar:And maybe the best place to start, or where I want to start anyway, instead of just seeing what I think of it, Josh, having now watched it for the first time, I want to know what your experience with the Rocky Horror Picture Show is. Was this the second time you've seen it? Have you seen it multiple times before this and has your experience with it changed over the years and did you see it for the first time the ideal way with a big audience with full participation what was it like

48:19Josh Larsen:sort of sort of i wish i could say yeah that i went to one of these you know costumes props and sing-alongs i saw it for the first time related to one though so this would have been in the 2000s Sometime when I was a critic for the Naperville sun and Hollywood Boulevard, which was right next door in Woodridge, Woodridge theater. Yeah. Would all often do special events, you know, movie type events every year. And they had a long run of the Rocky horror picture show, these, these midnight sing along screenings. And so writing a story about that kind of previewing that they were going to start this had to watch the movie for the first time.

48:58Josh Larsen:So that's when I did it. And, you know, interviewed, I think, in advance, the owner of the theater or something like that, but then didn't go to the actual event itself. Right. It was kind of like a review of the movie. I had a DVD library column at the time, which was older movies. So a review of the movie that acted as a preview of the event. That's what it was. And it was, yeah, it was just watching at home is wild. Right. Because this is a movie, and we'll probably get into the other wild rock or somewhat similar musicals that came out within three or four years of Rocky Horror Picture Show.

49:39Josh Larsen:They're all wild in their own way, I think. This one, incredibly distinct, and I think it still retains that. So it hasn't really, even though the culture has in some ways caught up with Rocky horror, in some ways contradicted it, progressively contradicted portions, segments of Rocky horror. I think overall it still stands as, um, maybe not a transgressive, but a gleefully alternative way of thinking about identity, gender, sexuality. it's that gleefulness, the joyousness, the inclusiveness that the movie leads with that I feel like makes it distinct and still its own joy to watch.

50:26Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I think that's right on. And I will note that here in Iowa City, we have a great theater that has a lot of great events. And the Refocus Film Festival here has some events at this theater. the England classic movie theater, much smaller, but similar in some ways to the music box in Chicago. And I think annually they do a Rocky horror event. But last year when it was its 50th anniversary, I found out about it too late and all the tickets were sold out. They have one coming up on October 30th. And as of right now, tickets are still available. So I need to check my calendar and see if I can make it out.

51:05Josh Larsen:And having now inclined, are you inclined to do that

51:08Adam Kempenaar:now that you've seen the film. I am absolutely more inclined. Though I'll say this, I'm not going to lie, watching the film, I did feel a little bit lost like Brad and Janet walking into the castle for two reasons. One, because I was obviously so aware of its status as this all-time midnight movie. And I was thinking about how, So if, you know, if I'm not going to see it at a public showing with full audience participation, you know, then am I am I getting the full experience that that was in my mind? And not only was that in my mind, I was thinking sometimes during certain songs or during certain scenes in a certain moments.

51:56During the live event, what would be happening here?

51:59Adam Kempenaar:What would they be saying back to the screen to this character here? I would be conjuring that in my mind, right? So I was detaching myself a little bit, wondering what the moment might be like in the theater. The other part of that is really all the films, maybe except for one or two that would make up any appropriate science fiction double feature that that were major influences on this movie, the songs that really are part of that song, all those B movies and the classic hammer horror films that are that are blind spots. they are blind spots for me. Clearly, Richard O 'Brien is having a tremendous amount of fun paying tribute to and parodying those films.

52:43Adam Kempenaar:They'd all make a great marathon topic for me, multiple marathons for me here on this show. But I don't know those films. I can understand beyond the song referencing them. I can understand that he's paying tribute perhaps and parodying those films, but I don't know them. I certainly don't have them in my soul. So, yes, I am curious about all the levels that I could be appreciating this movie on or appreciating it more on. I'll say appreciating it more on because I was still unmoored in a positive way by it. The Rocky Horror Picture Show is so dizzying and singularly ecstatic that unmoored may be the highest compliment.

53:30Adam Kempenaar:I can pay it. And I think what surprised me most is the expectation that it was a cult classic because it was almost certainly a bad movie, as in poorly made. The midnight showing was its refuge, its reclamation. And yes, it was a disaster at the box office, so that's certainly true financially. but but formally we we haven't even mentioned richard o 'brien who stars in the movie as as riffraff and who who wrote the original musical and and wrote the wrote the songs and jim sharman who directed it you watch this movie it's clear they're quite intentional about all of their choices and and whatever it lacks i'll leave it here josh for now or you can pick up this thread But whatever it lacks in story coherency, let's face it, it makes up for in Tim Curry's lips and eyebrows.

54:26Josh Larsen:Yeah. Oh, we'll spend some time on Curry because he is a revelation in many ways in this role. And perhaps the reason the movie persists. But I think you're onto something with the midnight movie element of it. And does that mean it's camp? Does that mean it's bad, reclaimed? I think it needs a certain level of shoddiness to fully live up to that experience. And I will admit to me, the Rocky Horror Picture Show has that in some of the filmmaking. I think some of it is conscious. Some of the use of Zooms here are just unhinged and egregious. The editing is particularly ungainly and awkward at times.

55:13Josh Larsen:and if you put it up against one of those other movies i was thinking of in terms of um you know sensibility and rock opera type um phantom of the paradise so the diploma film which we did as a bonus episode i think two years ago right of course which preceded rocky horror by a year and their diploma is trying all sorts of stuff as well right so many aesthetic choices but has even though they're experimental, a firmer control of how to employ them and why he wants to employ them. You just don't have that here. And I, you know, you have to admit that I think Rocky horror is a better film. I liked it.

55:53Josh Larsen:I do too. I was going to say, I still, I still have, I still

55:57Adam Kempenaar:enjoy this much more as a singular vision than fantasy paradise.

56:00Josh Larsen:Exactly. So I want to be clear about that, but I do think part of its midnight movie character is that you need a little of that um, slipshod filmmaking for it to fully, fully embody. Sure. That quality cabaret is the other one I was thinking of, of course, which also preceded both films. I think they're more in terms of sensibility perhaps than aesthetics, but yeah, you know, the filmmaking cabaret probably stronger here. So that aside, I still think, um, I still think the energy that Charmin harnesses and proceeds with is also necessary to the full experience of the movie. If this, if Rocky Horror tried to slow down to be more disciplined in some way, it would ultimately lose something and become perhaps more polished, but less distinct and less itself.

56:54Josh Larsen:And so maybe that's a, that's a cop out, but it's why I do think it's, it's the better film than something like Phantom.

57:07Adam Kempenaar:And I think both things can be true at once, that it can be less polished or not as polished as some conventional fare and have the slipshod style that you're referring to that gives it the qualities you need for a midnight movie and still have the intentionality that I'm referring to. Meaning there are some cult films that really do feel simply shoddy. And I think you can see in this film, in terms of the craft, a lot of very clear choices that are being made that enhance the film, that enhance the story, that actually draw out some of the key ideas of the film that I want to talk about. I want to talk about Curry first.

57:55Adam Kempenaar:So, come up to the lab and see what's on the slab. I see you shiver with anticipation.

58:11Josh Larsen:I think the thing that stuck out to me is, and this speaks exactly to what you're talking about, is it's the joy of the performance that is ultimately what I'm left with and how much fun he's having. Yet, if you watch it, it is incredibly precise, incredibly disciplined. I mean, he, he knows, he knows his lines, he knows his notes, but he also knows exactly how his eyes look in that makeup. That's it. And what every widening of them, narrowing of them, side, side eye he gives of them, which sometimes is given directly to the camera. Love the bit when he throws the water at the camera. And, you know, this is where it's becoming a midnight movie is when all of a sudden we're asked, we're invited in, to your point, we are Brad and Janet, and we're included in the fun.

59:10Josh Larsen:Curry's doing that in his performance. And at the same time, he's hitting every mark. The voice, I mean, he's got to be, Debbie's watching this and she's like, that's Bowie, right? He's doing Bowie. it's like, well, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's, he's, he's matching that,

59:27Adam Kempenaar:but also that's the glam rock era,

59:30Josh Larsen:you know, that he's, he's evoking here. I also think it's interesting. We can talk a little bit about, um, Frank and further as the villain. I had, it'd been a while and I forgot about what a villain he actually is, which is an interesting as conceived and written, but also performed. That's not something Curry backs away from, um, either. So yeah, Yeah, it's, you know, again, unfortunate that his passing is the occasion to watch this movie, but his performance is maybe the reason also to watch this movie.

1:00:04Adam Kempenaar:I think so. I think you can still say it's the main reason to watch the film and precise is a great word for it. It's a precise performance. It's also. and i do want to get to this a little more even post the specific curry conversation it's a bit tragic and i'm not disagreeing with you about the villain part that's the complexity of the performance and even the movie as it's written he's not just a chaos agent he's not just the antagonist you could argue that not brad or janet he gets the main arc of the film And certainly whether you fully agree with that, even or not, you can't say that he doesn't, that Curry as a performer doesn't get to do the full scope of just about anything a performer can do on screen or stage as Frankenfurter.

1:00:56Adam Kempenaar:Emotionally, he gets to explore just about every emotion in this film, emotionally, psychologically. And it's absurd. I think it's absurd that this is his screen debut, Josh. And to translate, of course, the precision of it isn't surprising considering that he played the character on stage. But what is surprising is how good he was in front of the camera. Because Frankenfurter is this larger than life character. And on the stage, you can imagine him. And it would have been glorious, too. You can imagine him fully leaning into that grandiosity and the frivolity of it. And the doctor's sheer volume and the size of the antics would have been necessary and brilliant.

1:01:52Adam Kempenaar:But you can't do that in front of a camera. And what I'm going to say, I'm saying this rhetorically, but I suppose you could disagree with me. What's the most seductive? And I'm also going to suggest unsettling part here. I think it's the close ups. I think it's those direct addresses to the audience, which puts us directly in the shoes of Brad and Janet, because I think we are in the shoes of Brad and Janet. That's all it takes. It's it's a raise of the eyebrows. It's a purse of those lips. And then what happens when they open? We hear that low, sultry voice. And whether it's singing or it's it's talking to us slowly and sultry, seductively, we are paralyzed.

1:02:53Adam Kempenaar:I could show you my favorite obsession. I've been making a man with blonde hair and a tan. And he's good for relieving my tension. I'm just a sweet transvestite. So for him to modulate that performance perfectly for the camera without sacrificing any of the bravado or energy or dynamism of that character is the wonder of it.

1:03:26Josh Larsen:Yeah, and that's what you would think might have gotten lost translating it from stage to screen, right? The close-ups, the eye work, and that's absolutely one of the strengths of the performance. So it really is remarkable. And as to this character being somewhat of a villain, though a complicated one we should talk about, You know, I'm, I know that there are conversations in terms of Frankenfurter as trans representation and critiquing that, right? There's much deeper analysis than I can provide on that topic, but it's probably worth tracking down some of the people who have done that writing.

1:04:03Josh Larsen:Cause I think it's a good conversation to have. And it's also related to this villainy because I had forgotten that he takes a pickaxe to Eddie. Yeah. He's pretty cold blooded. It's, and it, and it gets bloody. Totally forgot the cannibalism aspect that he serves Eddie up to everyone at dinner that night. A little Texas chainsaw massacre.

1:04:27Adam Kempenaar:Yeah.

1:04:28Josh Larsen:Yup. And yet, interesting to me that the movie makes space, and so does Curry's performance, for him to be more than just the villain or the chaos agent or even the hedonism agent necessarily, that it seems to be, that Frankenfurter seems to be selling. And it's, you know, it's striking that everything is free for all until Janet and the creature hook up, right? Then all of a sudden, then there need to be rules imposed. Then Frank and Furter is like, well, wait a minute. This is, this has gone too far. And he has a line here that I thought was, was fascinating. That speaks, I think, to his envisioning as a villain.

1:05:15Josh Larsen:At one point, this may be one he delivers to the camera. I don't remember precisely. but he just laments it's not easy having a good time and to me i was like there it is like that's why this movie is way more complicated than i think not only it's detractors yes who might say that this is is just like um you know some some sort of um you know like orgiastic celebration but also i think maybe some of its celebrators it's more it's more complicated than that as well Because you have this figure at the middle that wants to be the representative of ultimate human freedom. And yet at one point says out loud, it's not easy having a good time.

1:06:03Josh Larsen:Yeah. Like, what does that mean for someone who theoretically exists only to do that and has the power only to do that in this castle that he's built for himself?

1:06:13Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. You have this line at one point, too, right, that Dr. Scott says about how society must be protected. And this goes back to the line you're saying here, too. You have to question that even when you want to have total freedom or liberation, society still has to operate and it still does require some lines being drawn. And where do you draw the lines and who draws them? And so I do think this is one of the more interesting aspects of this film is to consider by the end or even as it's going, where do our sympathies lie when we watch this movie? Because the movie puts us in a position where not only are they the protagonists, so this is the case initially, but I think in terms of, I'm going to use the word normality too, we as audience members, because this is such a weird, intentionally weird transgressive space and meant to be that.

1:07:15Adam Kempenaar:it's meant to introduce us to it just like it's introducing brad and janet to it we immediately identify with them and so are we by the end supposed to identify with brad and janet who just want to get their tire fixed we could be them getting lost in the night getting our our car breaks down we just want to get to a phone i love the way i love the way barry bostwick says that when he shows up at the house. He is really good. Hey, Janet. Yes, Brad? I've got something to say. Uh-huh. I really love the...

1:07:59Adam Kempenaar:skillful way. You beat the other girls to the bride's bouquet. Oh, Brad. He is exactly as stiff as he has to be for this without being boring. That's right. Because he has to play the role of dominant American male, trying to play the character of dominant American male. And he does it so well. So they just want to get their tire fixed. They just want to get on their way. They aren't looking to be enlightened in any way. They don't want to get corrupted. And that's probably who we are as well. Right. So are we are we with them or if they do, if we see them as people who get corrupted, then Frank is definitely the villain.

1:08:50Adam Kempenaar:and you do understand and even may agree with his punishment at the end society does need to be protected and he has gone too far the things he what he did to eddie serving him up too certainly and and just the the hedonism everything he done he has done is an overreach of his power so he is a bad guy and and so then you can say that magenta and riffraff well maybe they're the heroes because they've put things back in order restore order they've punished him but don't they by the end also seem with their their uniforms and their severity don't they also seem like they're kind of interested in in restoring their own sort of the fascistic order like they don't seem like the one the the the type of system that you would want to embrace either right that and for a brother and

1:09:46Josh Larsen:sister granted they're aliens who knows there's there's an awful lot of um a little too cozy stroking going a little too cozy look closely between those two so i don't know if they're the i agree the squares they want to pretend that is that is true but then that does bring you back

1:10:02Adam Kempenaar:to frank who is clearly this authoritarian who did all the things we said he has done He has he himself has clearly been corrupted by his power, but arguably he has also helped Brad and Janet be liberated in a way that we as viewers should embrace. And at least at least his ethos is rooted in pleasure. It's rooted in pleasure and sexual freedom. But but that said, Josh, there are by the end of this film, there are at least three different types of authoritarianism presented here, including the fact that I love the nod to the fact that he calls him. He calls Dr. Scott, Dr. Von Scott. I know this in this strange love in sort of nod in the wheelchair.

1:10:50Adam Kempenaar:Right. Like he's a Nazi. the suggestion is he's a Nazi and just in the hypocrisy there of of straight militaristic America that that brought the Nazis over to be our scientists that's who this guy is and and so you're looking at this and you're thinking none of these paths are are being prescribed to us as the obvious path to take as the obvious that's right or righteous path and I think that then does leave us as viewers to we can't do anything but to question authority which is then what makes it subversive that that's part of what makes this film so subversive i mean it really is a portrait

1:11:33Josh Larsen:of the human condition it's just a broader portrait of the human condition than the movies are usually willing to entertain right and if it's subversive it's in that way yes otherwise I think it's, you know, it's very, again, amenable to anyone coming to it from whatever their background is, being welcome to it, and also being allowed to ask these questions about themselves and what authority they're going to bring into their own lives. I do love though. I think the framework you set up, I think is very true, but I love the initial subverting of us as audience members. If we are the squares, um, coming to it as audience members, subverting that early on in the wedding scene of Brad and Janet's friends who have just gotten married.

1:12:22Josh Larsen:Did you notice what's written on the side of the car in, in shaving cream as I did,

1:12:27Adam Kempenaar:I did go off. And let me see if I can remember it. She got hers. Now he gets his. something like that now he's going to get his the idea right that like she got the ring which is all she needs she and and what a line too now she gets to be mrs ralph hapshats or something like the worst shackling she could ever be shackled with is she's lost her identity completely yes and and she's taken on that identity that's what she gets to be called for the rest of her life But now he gets his, he gets to claim sexual power over her.

1:13:02Josh Larsen:And it's, and it's, that is pretty much it, but it's even more violent really. It is. Because it starts with wait till tonight. Yes. Wait till tonight. She got her. Foreboding. Now he'll get his. And it's just, you know, it's this idea of the movie already poking holes in, you know, conventional perfection and suggesting perhaps that square life comes with its own quote unquote perversions. Yes. And that, that a phrase like that could be written on a car and everyone laughs it off is deranged. Yes. So, so this is a movie that opens before you even get to Frank's castle with a perverse derangement that's being accepted as, well, this is just what we do.

1:13:46Josh Larsen:It's part of tradition. And, and so I think that's just very sophisticated in terms of complicating things in the way that you've described.

1:13:55Adam Kempenaar:I want to just briefly expand on that, that complicating and maybe that perversity a little bit, if that's the word that you used. And I'll set it up by saying I think the best visual gag in the movie, the best little scene is that moment that happens twice that's repeated under the sheets. the repetition we get when when frankenfurter seduces first janet and then brad but it's clearly barry bostwick talking to her yeah yeah but but then it seems like he's transformed right into all in silhouette the silhouette right and so it's it's set up for us as if tim curry was imitating brad but it clearly was bostwick and then later it's as if frank was imitating Brad, but we know that it was, you know, the other way around.

1:14:50Adam Kempenaar:So the, that scene is, is funny. First of all, it's really funny, but it, it does set up. It's at the core of what makes this movie, I think special of what makes it so transgressive and use that word and said, maybe now looking back on it, it doesn't seem that way or so transgressive through our, our 2026 lens. And I get that, but I was trying to watch it through a 1975 lens. I was trying to think about what it would have been like seeing this in the theater. And I think I'm going to echo some of the things you were saying before, because I can imagine a lot of Brad and Janet normals in high school and college going to see this movie in 1975.

1:15:34Adam Kempenaar:75, the allure of it would have been that this is something so weird and so, so challenging the status quo and the norm that, that we're doing something wrong. We're doing something naughty by going to see it. Right. And not only that, Josh, by going to see it, finding themselves stirred by certain feelings that maybe they had never experienced before, maybe by some of those closeups from Tim Curry, just like Brad and Janet are when they find themselves under the sheets with Tim Curry now even if those feelings were fleeting it was something they had to actually acknowledge and they had to accept for a second and I do think there's power in that especially when it's a communal theatrical experience before the whole spectacle that surrounds this movie just it being communal and theatrical all of a sudden you're saying to yourself wait, we're all just now accepting this kind of fluidity.

1:16:35Adam Kempenaar:We're all just kind of accepting this openness, this weirdness. And Brad and Janet were probably never the same, right, after leaving this castle. And nobody in the audience was never quite the same after walking out of the theater, after watching Rocky Horror. And the mashing together of all these different cultural touchstones and influences, is this just Richard O 'Brien having a goof? Is he sort of bereft of ideas? And so he did it. I think of it more like he understands that these narratives are ultimately what form our cultural narratives. And so you have to be willing, if this is your goal, you have to be willing to challenge those in order to be transgressive.

1:17:19Adam Kempenaar:And so even just to give you one example, having Rocky carry Frank up to the top of the RKO tower and have them plummet to the ground, even with the sound effects of airplanes, even though there are obviously no airplanes coming in non-diegetically, it was beauty that killed the beast. and that imagery in our minds of King Kong and Fay Wray, that is a parable at this point for us culturally as much as anything in the Bible, right? So what does it then mean to have a film like this have this monster, monster that's been created, even though is it really a monster? Does it really behave like a monster?

1:18:10Adam Kempenaar:carrying this even bigger monster potentially up to the top. And then, but, but he's also beautiful. Right. And then, and then come crashing down to earth with it. This, like that encapsulates the, the transgressiveness of this film for me.

1:18:28Josh Larsen:Yeah. You're onto something too about the touchstones because horror in particular, and them being specific choices on O 'Brien's part, maybe as you said, these are just movies he loves. But I think often you will hear people talk about or critics write about genre, particularly horror. So the Frankenstein myth or King Kong even more so than maybe sci-fi. But being like moments of awakening for people in watching movies, older movies like that, maybe has nothing to do with how those films were intended. Maybe some of those films, their subtext that was intended. but at any rate having those sorts of experiences with these cultural myths and so to that sense and to your point weaving them into a story like this absolutely seems like a reasonable

1:19:20Adam Kempenaar:and a fruitful strategy maybe i'll report back after october 30th if i do in fact make it to rocky horror in the theater i would love to hear obviously your thoughts we always want to hear your feedback for any review that we have, but especially if you have been to the live experience, and I'm sure that many of you have, tell us what it was like. Feedback at filmspotting.net.

1:20:02Adam Kempenaar:It's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake. Because this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Kewpie only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers. Some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it.

1:20:35Adam Kempenaar:People who really care about flavor use it. Never tried it? Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Kupi, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem? Running a business is hard enough. Don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. That's software overload. Odoo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, fully integrated, easy to use, and built to grow with your business.

1:21:12Adam Kempenaar:Thousands have already made the switch. Why not you?

1:21:15Josh Larsen:Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's odoo.com.

1:21:23Adam Kempenaar:Hey, what's up, guys? It's Haley Bailey. Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium. It's got tons of awesome features like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have Wi-Fi, because we all know airplane Wi-Fi is the worst. I get ad-free, I get backroom play, and there's like a ton more in there. You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Try it now for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium.

1:21:54Josh Larsen:Hi, I'm Sean Evans from Hot Ones, and I want to tell you about YouTube Premium. It has offline downloads, so you can watch without Wi-Fi. Background play, so you can lock your phone and it still plays, baby.

1:22:06Adam Kempenaar:Oh, and it is completely ad-free. Yes, I said it, ad-free. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Trial eligibility varies, terms apply, cancel anytime. Hey, this is Kevin.

1:22:23Josh Larsen:This is Joe. And this is Nick from Hey Jonas.

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1:23:17Adam Kempenaar:A quick note, speaking of feedback, Josh, We have gotten a lot of great feedback in response to our top five needle drops with Rico Galliano from MUBI. Some folks in the FilmSpotting family discord suggesting that that's a top five that might go into the FilmSpotting top five Hall of Fame someday. So I'm very pleased to hear that folks enjoyed it that much. We certainly enjoyed putting it together and recording it, even if it did go long. But it went long because we were having such a good time talking about those films and those songs in particular. That brings me to a note that I wanted to make people aware of, which is there are playlists available.

1:24:06Adam Kempenaar:Apple Music and Spotify. We will link to them in the notes for this show. If you want to find them, if you would like to hear the 15 songs that made our top fives, they're available. Apple Music playlist, Spotify, check them out.

1:24:27Josh Larsen:And do we have these? It's all one list, right? So one list. Are we cycling what, like the, the, the round that we picked them? How's it organized?

1:24:37Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I think, well, I can tell you cause I put it together and what I did was I started in the order that we went. So Rico, you, me, but I did go one, two, three, four, five. So it starts with Rico's pick of before sunrise and then to your number one from Darjeeling, right? And then to my number one from fight club and then two down to five. Nice. And there is one more that we will link to. Dennis, I hope I'm saying this right. I apologize if I'm not. Dennis Hui, he also made a film spotting needle drops playlist on Spotify, but he was way more ambitious than I was, Josh. It has 51 songs in it.

1:25:21Adam Kempenaar:Whoa, is this every song we mentioned? In the description, it says parentheses almost. And then it says all the songs mentioned on episode 1058. So it is it is missing at least one song. I think I noticed that it's missing at least one of your picks somehow. I think one of your actual picks. But don't take that the wrong way, Dennis. You did amazing work. I'll let you know which one and you can add it. It has 51 songs. Pretty much as we said it, he added it to the playlist. No wonder we had to do a two-parter for that. That's it. 51 songs, three hours and 45 minutes of music. Dennis did Yeoman's work.

1:26:01Adam Kempenaar:So you can check out the abbreviated Just Top 5 version, or you can check out the extended, the quadruple LP, if you will. We will link to all of them in our show notes over at filmspotting.net and also in the podcast description for this episode. And you think if you save poor Catherine, you could make them stop, don't you? You think if Catherine lives, you won't wake up in the dark ever again to that awful screaming of the lambs. Let's get back to our horror talk. We have some poll results for you a couple of weeks ago. We asked you to choose one and only one 90s villain. The choices were John Doe from Seven, Agent Smith from The Matrix, Annie Wilkes from Misery, Hannibal Lecter, The Silence of the Lambs, Scar from The Lion King, the T-1000 from T2 Judgment Day, or you could write in Other.

1:27:03Adam Kempenaar:Josh, who is the greatest 90s movie villain and give us the also-rans?

1:27:10Josh Larsen:Well, aside from other, which only received 3 % of the vote, bringing up the rear here is Scar and Annie Wilkes, 6 % and 7 % for those two agents. Smith got 10 % of the vote. Then very close here, 13 % for John Doe from seven and 14 % for T 1000. But yeah, as we expected, Hannibal Lecter takes this poll with 46 % of the vote.

1:27:36Adam Kempenaar:Here's Aaron. The 90s is more stuff full of villains than myself after visiting a Brazilian steakhouse. I'm kind of surprised that nobody has yet to mention Amon Guth from Schindler's List. I'm even more surprised that nobody mentioned Shooter Regavin from Happy Gilmore. My choice is still Hannibal Lecter, even though Buffalo Bill was the real villain of the movie.

1:27:56Josh Larsen:Good point, Aaron. Here's Juan. Of course, Lecter will justifiably run away with this, but John Doe was so patient, methodical, smart, and relentless that he lived in my nightmares for months. after I saw seven. Yeah, I guess that could have been a good way of thinking about this. Which one of these characters gave you the most nightmares?

1:28:17Adam Kempenaar:Here's Isabel Bishop. I'm not denying the eeriness of Hannibal Lecter or how psychotic John Doe is. And the T-1000 and Agent Smith are both terrifying monsters, but no scene in the history of film makes my whole body cringe more than that scene in Misery. Annie Wilkes is not a serial killer, a killing machine, or even a Shakespearean fratricidal lion. She's just a human being who has lost all semblance of her sanity. And she's the best 90s villain. Fratricidal Lion is a great band name. And Shakespearean Fratricidal Lion is a great band name if you're nasty. Wow.

1:28:53Josh Larsen:Nice work, Isabel. Thank you. Here's our friend Maria from Kent, UK. Scar is very cruel. He makes little Simba an orphan without batting an eyelid. Just watches his own brother being trampled to death. The other villains are sadistic, but they don't go killing their own siblings and then saying long live the king to Mufasa as he plunges to his death. Spine chilling. A really bad guy.

1:29:14Adam Kempenaar:A really bad guy. Yeah. And Jeremy Irons really knows how to play bad guys. I forgot about the long live the king. Long live the king. That's some evil stuff. Okay. Okay. Damian Cannon says, there's a big hole in your pole. If you're looking for an unhinged bonkers movie villain, I refer of course to Gary Oldman's Norman Stansfield from Leon, the professional. He's a pill popping agent of chaos, chaos and evil all the way through. And Jesper tacks onto this. Josh says, Gary Oldman had a pretty villainous run in the nineties. Norman Stansfield Zorg in the fifth element, Ivan Korshin, I've been Air Force one, Dracula, anyone, and the minor villain Drexel Spivey in True Romance, I should say.

1:30:01Adam Kempenaar:All these characters made a pretty lasting impression in this adolescence nightmares. With that being said, none of them scared me or scarred me like John Doe.

1:30:10Josh Larsen:Fair, but that does make me wonder. I remember that era and thinking, almost starting to write Gary Oldman off because of that run. I wonder if he was being punished. Like, was there some sort of, was that his penance he was paying for having to take all those roles? I mean, some of them are pretty good. to the listeners points. All right, Dave Davidson here, all good picks, but it's got to be Simon Peter Gruber, Jeremy Irons in Die Hard with Avengers. There he is again. Jeremy Irons. He's foreign. He's in a sequel. He's got an elaborate plan. And be honest with yourself, the rest of these villains could be from any time period.

1:30:46Josh Larsen:Simon very specifically occupies a pre-911 New York. Therefore, he alone truly epitomizes what it is to be a 90s villain. I rest my case. Thank you. Good night.

1:30:58Adam Kempenaar:I mean, a pretty compelling argument. If you emphasize the 90s, I see what Dave is selling there, Josh. Worth considering. That brings us to our final bit of feedback. Certainly, last but not least, it turns out we've got this from, oh, Hannibal Lecter. Josh, what an honor. It says, I'd advise voting for me. Of course, if you feel the T-1000, Hans Gruber, or some animated nonsense is more deserving, I will respect your decision completely. I would only ask that you leave your name, address, blood type, and preferred wine pairing in the comments. I do so enjoy meeting an independent thinker for dinner.

1:31:44Josh Larsen:And scene. What bravo for taking on the impromptu Massacre Theater.

1:31:50Adam Kempenaar:Yes.

1:31:50Josh Larsen:I think I'm impressed even if it was a little bit, you know, some Valium slipped into Hannibal's wine, maybe, maybe for that one.

1:31:58Adam Kempenaar:A little drowsy, little drowsy, little drowsy Southern gentleman, not so much Hannibal Lecter. But really kudos, kudos for digging into that. Here's my question. If it had worked out that it was your turn to read, would you have done it? You know, I would have had to do it. Oh, now I feel bad. Now I wish it was you.

1:32:18Josh Larsen:i'm sure this will this will actually kick off i know a wealth of opportunities from listeners

1:32:24Adam Kempenaar:are now going to be writing in i think animal actors respond to every poll that would be amazing whether he's part of it or not and i am going to regret that aren't i we thank everyone who voted in that poll and left a comment our new deeply flawed and i'm going to point out why it's flawed, Josh. Film Spotting Poll is inspired by our Rocky Horror Review. It is about 70s musical. We are asking you to choose the 70s musical. I think that's how it's phrased. Choose the 70s musical. So here again, like 90s movie villain, is it the best 70s musical or is it the most 70s of 70s musicals? You get to decide as the person voting in the poll, the options are.

1:33:09Josh Larsen:Yeah, that could really change things, couldn't it? All right, so we're giving you All That Jazz, Cabaret, Fiddler on the Roof, Grease, Jesus Christ Superstar, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, or Other. And the question I have for you, Adam, is clearly, and I think the way this poll will go, the cinephile choice is All That Jazz. It is. I know you love All That Jazz. Yes. Has your watch of Rocky horror caused you to reconsider that? Or are you going to go with all that jazz? Well, let me walk you through it here real quick.

1:33:47Adam Kempenaar:I have one blind spot here, so I do have to admit to that, but only one. So I feel like I'm still qualified to vote in the poll. I haven't seen Fiddler on the Roof. Yeah, me neither. Okay. the best film of the other five that are mentioned for me as you said for me is definitely all that jazz and i'm so in the bag for fossey that the next best film on the list very clearly is cabaret okay so those would be my top two however josh i know it's listed this way if you google it and it comes up and whether it's Wikipedia or whatever, I know all that jazz is listed as a musical and I understand why.

1:34:32But when I think of all that jazz, I do not think of musical scenes.

1:34:37Adam Kempenaar:Roy Scheider sings about four lines in the movie. There are musical numbers or there are scenes put to music, but those are musical scenes within a musical. It's not like any of these other films where characters are breaking out into song, expressing themselves. all that jazz to me is not a musical. It does not, it does not belong on this list. It's disqualified.

1:35:01Josh Larsen:I take your point, but I'm afraid when I look at my own website, I have it categorized as musical. So I, I, well, that trumps everything. I got to go with it.

1:35:11Adam Kempenaar:Larsononfilm.com has spoken.

1:35:13Josh Larsen:You know, um, yeah, no, I get that. I mean, but also, and this gets to my choice, which is in the category of other, you could say the Muppet movie. is somewhat similar because it's a showbiz story. I think not all - But there's songs throughout that. The Muppets sing, don't they? There are songs throughout, but a good number of them are on stage as part of the Muppet show, right? I think in the Muppet movie. We recently watched The Muppets again, and that's certainly the case there. At any rate, I would allow all that jazz, but I get what you're saying. It is a way to make this poll a little easier, perhaps, if you remove that or maybe more interesting for people who are in the bag for all that jazz as much as you are.

1:36:00Josh Larsen:I'm torn actually between two other options. It is the Muppet movie and it is Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. I mean, I think. Yeah. Putting that in other.

1:36:15Adam Kempenaar:That's tough.

1:36:15Josh Larsen:I think I'm going to go with the Muppet movie just to keep that showmanship, showbiz, meta, thematic spirit that seems to be going through a lot of these. This somewhat is related to the 70s of it all, right? Rocky Horror has production elements to it. That's what Frankenfurter is leading us to, that big stage show at the end. Obviously, all that jazz you talked about. Cabaret, right? And so I like this notion of this period of movie musicals really exploring performance itself and show business itself. And the Muppet movie is aligned with that. That's enough for me to give it the edge in this poll over Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

1:37:03Josh Larsen:But it's really tough for me between those two.

1:37:05Adam Kempenaar:Okay. We have nobody but ourselves to blame for this because Sam gave us the chance to weigh in and determine what options were in this poll. I do think one of the flaws of this poll is not only that all that jazz is included, but that Willy Wonka is not included and Fiddler on the Roof is. And I know there are people listening who are saying, Adam, Fiddler on the Roof absolutely should be included. but I am going to posit that if we put head to head Fiddler on the Roof and Willy Wonka to our audience, Willy Wonka would dominate. So I think Willy Wonka probably should be in this poll and over that choice.

1:37:48Adam Kempenaar:As it is, it's in other and I am really inclined to go other and vote for it. As I said, I'm leaving off all that jazz. Can't vote for Fiddler on the Roof. I was very inclined to go with Grease, Josh, even though as a musical, the one on here, just as a musical in terms of the music, and listeners should know this about me by now, even though I maybe haven't talked about it exhaustively. Sam knows this the musical that I care about the most the one I can sing every song to the one I know line by line is Jesus Christ Superstar now as a movie the Norman Jewison film I can take or leave the film but the soundtrack from the movie is vastly superior to the original Broadway production with Ted Neely and and Carl how am blanking on Carl's last name because he's he's a legend but whatever the the movie version is the definitive version the movie the movie is is fine I was inclined to go with Greece here's where I'm coming out Josh the reason why I'm leaving off Greece and Cabaret here's my arbitrary thinking even though Greece arguably works for its time period because it presages the coming 80s nostalgia boom for the 50s neither cabaret or greece neither cabaret nor greece are products really of the 70s they have nothing to say about the 1970s the time in which they are

1:39:27Josh Larsen:released i mean okay this goes back to rocky horror though exactly what is cap how is rocky horror a you know british america by way of britain cabaret for the 70s you know and i realized cabaret was everything we talked about if you go to the christopher isherwood you know source material um and think about berlin and the end of the weimar republic and what it's saying about that yes how how much is so i guess what i'm saying is cabaret is in a way a 70s movie to me of course it is i don't really want to suggest in the way that grease is not yeah i and

1:40:08Adam Kempenaar:i don't really want to suggest that that period pieces aren't intentionally made obviously to inform the period in which they are released or produced but i still see that largely as as a reflection of the the period that it is it is set in whereas the rocky horror picture show for all the reasons we discussed, seems to me a direct reflection of the mid-1970s in its challenge of authority, its transgressiveness, and its prescience in terms of what is right around the corner, like right around the corner, it's ushering in of punk.

1:40:55Josh Larsen:I'm going with Rocky Horror. Okay. Yeah, it's definitely more of the 70s picture. And as to the music, I mean, yeah, if you give me any of these to just listen to, for me, it is Grease. And that is completely a nostalgic thing, not obviously going back to the 50s or whatever, but just my sisters watching that with their cousins and having it on all the time. And the music is kind of irresistible in that one. So, yeah, it'll be interesting to see where listeners come out on this. It could be tight across the board with a healthy dose of voting for other.

1:41:32Adam Kempenaar:Watch Fiddler on the Roof, 72%. The comments will just be, take that, Adam, Hannibal Lecter. Suck it, Adam, Hannibal Lecter. I can't wait. Hannibal's going to be so busy writing into us. Vote and please do leave a comment at filmspotting.net. We will share the results and your comments in a couple of weeks. Josh, that is our show.

1:41:57Josh Larsen:If you want to connect with us on social media, you can find Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, YouTube, and Blue Sky at Film Spotting. I'm at those places as Larson on Film. We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the Film Spotting family over at filmspottingfamily.com. That way you can listen early. Also, the episodes will be ad-free. You'll get monthly bonus episodes, a weekly newsletter, and access to the entire show archive. For show t-shirts and other merch, you can go to filmspotting.net slash shop.

1:42:29Adam Kempenaar:Out wide this weekend, The Fix. Liam Neeson and Zachary Levi are disgraced CIA operatives who attempt a life-changing score. They're always life-changing. Can't resist them. Practical Magic 2 is out. Rekindling the magic. Nicole Kidman and Sandra Bullock. They return for a sequel to their 1998 spooky season movie. Josh confession. I never saw the original Practical Magic.

1:42:56Josh Larsen:I did review the original quite negatively, but I am still just worked out. Timing wise, I'm going to go see the new one as soon as we're done here. And hopefully, hopefully I'll like it a little better and I can report back next week.

1:43:10Adam Kempenaar:Runner is also out a former soldier. Alan Richland is in a race against time when a critical medical delivery makes him and his unlikely partner, Owen Wilson, the targets of a ruthless cartel. They're always ruthless. How about this? I didn't know this until I read it here. I've been seeing the previews for Andrew Garfield in The Uprising. He leads a 14th century rebellion. And I'm just going to give you my honest reaction. Every time I saw the trailer, I thought, why is Andrew Garfield in this movie? I have no interest in seeing this movie. and now I have to accept the fact that Paul Greengrass is directing The Uprising and maybe I need to see it.

1:43:47Josh Larsen:I know that did push me. I'm hoping to go see it tomorrow night. We'll see if that works out, but it did push me over the edge as well. I'm looking here. I think I've missed the last possibly three films from Paul Greengrass, which is way more than I would have thought is this real the lost bus never heard 25 news of the world 2020 didn't see it 22

1:44:14Adam Kempenaar:july 2018 okay i i guess i also am a dilettante when it comes to paul greengrass how about that

1:44:22Josh Larsen:okay well hopefully um hopefully i'll fit this one in and get him back on my radar because he's an incredibly talented filmmaker next week in the film spotting feed we will have a new movie racket

1:44:33Adam Kempenaar:with Michael Phillips. We will have a new film spotting SVU on Tuesday, Untold Raygun, Breaking Badly. This is a documentary about the infamous Australian breakdancer from the 24 Paris Olympics. That's on Netflix. On Thursday, the next picture show will contend with It Ends and it's pairing with Solaris. Friday's film spotting. Since we don't plan to talk about The Uprising or Runner or Practical Magic 2 or The Fix, unless Josh comes back from any of those just raving about how great they are, we are going to talk about, as part of our Pantheon project, David Lynch's Blue Velvet, Can You Believe It, at 40.

1:45:13Josh Larsen:Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dissot and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Ariana Martinez is our marketing and social media assistant. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:45:36Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

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