Dog Day Afternoon at 50, Ne Zha II Review

17:19Josh Larsen:And they're there, but none of those even felt as lived in as Pacino is here as Sonny, where to your point about no one else being able to play him, like this is the only Sonny that there ever could have been. And it's the only person Pacino maybe could ever have been. They're so intrinsically connected. And so I think this is the hallmark of the movie is this performance. I think also we might, this touches on what you were asking a little bit in terms of the hero, Adam. And I think he becomes a symbolic hero. And I want to talk about that when we get into the political connotations. But think about all of the awfulness he has caused.

18:02Josh Larsen:And in some cases we've seen him do. He even sort of betrays Sal at one point. He even sort of betrays Leon at one point. And if we're to believe to what you were talking about Leon's stories about him and Sonny's wife's stories about him, he's been truly awful to people. And yet how about near the end when he's quoting out that sweet, tortured will that includes both Leon and his wife? To my wife, to my sweet wife, Angela.

18:425 ,000 from the same policy. You are the only woman that I ever loved. And I re-pledged my love to you in this sad moment.

19:00Josh Larsen:I mean, think about even tinier moments. Let's go back to the pizza guy. I got to pay for the food. You know, it's his good instinct to cover the bill. Because deep down, he knows he's caused this. And maybe that's where he's expressing that knowledge. But you talked about Mulvaney, the bank manager. I think it's so crucial that Lumet includes this moment later on, specifically after Sonny does something that could win our sympathy as the audience or the people's sympathy in the bank. He says, you're not, and here's the quote, an angel of human kindness. And so is he too likable in this movie?

19:36Josh Larsen:That's always the push and pull for an anti-hero. And I think Dog Day Afternoon includes enough little moments like that to keep us from falling completely in love with Sonny even as we fall into those eyes.

19:48Adam Kempenaar:I absolutely agree with that. And to what you were saying about those puppy dog eyes and the way he seems to constantly be pleading and how you know he is so unfit for this job, which some characters say about him, that this just isn't in his nature. And we see that. There are many examples. But the one for me that gets me every single time is right at the beginning is the character named Stevie, the third wheel who can't take it and runs. And when he says they're standing in the doorway and he says to Sonny, I need the keys. How am I going to get home? There's a moment where you can tell that Sonny actually is contemplating letting him take the keys.

20:35Adam Kempenaar:Absolutely. Even though they're robbing the bank and they obviously need a getaway car, there's a moment where he is so sympathetic to Stevie having to take a train or walk a long distance that he is considering giving him the keys. I got to pay for the food. You need to know. I got to pay for the food. It's crazy. So I so badly almost want to get into all of the amazing Lumet filmmaking touches here. But let's talk about the hero question, because I think that's where we're at. We've certainly prompted that here. I agree with you. I think he does come to symbolize something and in some ways then maybe even backs in to being a hero.

21:20Adam Kempenaar:And that might be a strike against him as a hero. If it, like so many other things that happen in this movie for Sonny, if it almost happens against his will. I think there is one particular thing that Sonny realizes and that he provokes. And it's in this provocation that he becomes that symbolic hero. And that is enough. That's enough for this movie, for him to be the hero that the people of New York, the people on these streets need, if not the type of mythical hero that many of these other antiheroes that we're talking about become. This movie, right from the beginning, that great Lumet opening sequence, which we can share more details about later, grounds us in this gritty reality.

22:12Adam Kempenaar:And he is playing this everyday type of character. It wants to ground us in this 1970s where we recognize there is an immediate distrust of authority. They are coming off of the killing of many people, many innocent people, reportedly at Attica. There are these economic concerns, and that's the first time that people start to get on his side. The hostages there get on his side, where he's talking about how you can't get a job if you're not in the union, and he can't be a bank teller, which he tried because you don't get paid enough, and they all nod their heads, right? He understands that. But what he really understands and what Lumet shows with his camera is that what the people are really afraid of is the potential for the state to wield violence with impunity.

23:10Adam Kempenaar:That's what Attica showed. Even though they couldn't witness it, it revealed the potential for the state to do that. And Sonny recognizes, and here again, Lamette with his camera shows that claustrophobic nature of every time he's outside and he says that great line, he can't wait to shoot me. This guy can't wait to shoot me. The way they're constantly encroaching. Every cop out there has his gun. Even when Durning's just trying to have a conversation with him, every cop has their gun drawn. Lumet wants to constantly show us how from every angle there are groups of cops who are moving in and moving in.

23:50Adam Kempenaar:And they really do seem bloodthirsty, even though it's just little old Sonny who is standing out there. And when he says there's a line later where it's not clear what he's referring to. It's later in the film. He's ramping or amping the crowd up. And he says, you got it, man. You got it, man. a couple of times. And I really think what he's saying is, is you got it. Like you've got the power. You've got, you've got this sense of power. We're taking it back from them. And what here again, Lumet does with the camera. That's really interesting in these shots, Josh. And, and he, he juxtaposes it later when we see that Sonny no longer has this power when he's dealing with Sheldon, the FBI guy later, that spotlight is in his face.

24:36Adam Kempenaar:It's completely discombobulating him. He's cut off at the waist awkwardly. He really seems like he has no control of that situation at all. The stage.

24:47Josh Larsen:His stage has been taken away.

24:49Adam Kempenaar:It's been taken away. He does feel like a person on a stage there. The way Lamette shoots that is you see Sonny almost the entire time in a full, long shot. You see his body. The early scenes. You see how his body moves across that sidewalk almost like a stage and he controls it. He owns it. That's the only time in the film once he gets outside and he gets in front of that crowd. And once he realizes that there's something there that he can exploit, that's real, that's very real, that the police do seem like an oppressive force. They are bloodthirsty. That's real. And he can tap into that. That's when he finally takes over some some power.

25:32Adam Kempenaar:And that's a legitimate, that's not just something he's exploiting because he wants to take control of the situation. It's a real concern. The crowd has a real concern about that as we're looking at that New York crowd in 1972.

25:50Josh Larsen:Yeah, I think Sonny becomes this heroic figure and a political figure mostly by happenstance, you know, and that fits who he is as a person. when he does yell Attica and starts chanting that, it comes out of him almost as this impulsive bit of desperation that I'm sure is buried in some real fears and rage as well, but it's not like he planned to have this in his back pocket to use if he needed it. It's very impulsive, not an intentional statement, but he sticks with it. Why? Because of what you're talking about. It works. It works for the crowd. And so I don't think you'd call Sonny a moral crusader, crusading against state violence.

26:30Josh Larsen:As we've tracked, he's deeply flawed, but that doesn't mean he can't be capable of making moral points. And the Attica context is so crucial. Most listeners know, but again, this 1971 revolt at Attica Correctional Facility, which was in New York, about 30 inmates, 10 officers were killed, mostly by police. And so it is that state violence you're talking about. And here in front of the bank, the police arrive as so often happens, boys with toys, way more boys, way more powerful toys than are necessary for the situation. They arrive with escalation tactics, not a de-escalation strategy. And so when Sonny yells Attica, it's the moment where he is so overpowered and so overwhelmed.

27:18Josh Larsen:And I understand that's the point, but it's different to be prepared for the situation and to come prepared to kill enough to kill 30 times over. And so Sonny yells Attica, he's reclaiming what little power he has, including with the crowd, while he has it. And this was one of the revelations for me, Adam, on this revisit. I saw it a little more recently than you did. 2005 was the last time I watched Dog Day Afternoon, and I wrote about it at that time, I saw it mostly as a media critique and spent a lot of time, which, you know, and that's there, it's there, right. You can obviously revisit that as well.

27:57Josh Larsen:I'd love to, but it's interesting when I look back at what I wrote, didn't really touch on these elements at all in 2025 dog day afternoon really struck me more as this searing, uh, very desperate anti-authoritarian protest film. And it's, it was reminding me watching it of that all too brief move toward police reform we had in 2020, not all that long ago in the wake of the murder of George Floyd by police. I think this movie reveals the buffoonery of escalating police response. And you called out the one moment where Sonny is pointing out all of the cops with their guns. How about when he's screaming?

28:38Josh Larsen:It may have been then, but maybe it was another point where he's put the effing guns down, put them down. I mean, that worked in the moment of the movie, in the context of the movie. And I got to say, for me, it was just like this invigorating call for a new way of law enforcement, one that does prioritize de-escalation. And if that was fitting in 1975, fitting in 2020, it's even more fitting now. How about the moment when Sonny accuses the cops of bringing in his word, militia? What do we have right now? I mean, we've got these rampant, often illegal ice arrests, dangerously silly boys with toys running around if I've ever seen them.

29:19Josh Larsen:And so for me, this no way feels like an artifact from a previous time. It is a cinematic protest sign for our own time. And I really wonder, this movie really made me wonder, are we going to get a movie as defiant and daring for our era as 1975 did with Dog Day Afternoon? I mean, it could be seen something like Cuckoo's Nest. We touched on some of these ideas, even more so in Nicholson's The Last Detail, I would say. Dark Day Afternoon, definitely a response to the Nixon years, right? I hope we get an equivalent response at this point. I fear not, given how so many institutions have kind of wilted before this administration.

29:57Josh Larsen:It's yet to be seen how Hollywood is actually going to respond. We don't even have a Hollywood that has space for movies like this anymore, Or let's be honest, maybe it'll have to come from independent cinema. But man, this movie just really popped for me as political protest in a way it didn't, what, 20 years ago.

30:17Adam Kempenaar:Got the militia out here. Same for me. And that's why the media critique aspect fits into more of the disillusionment and the distrust of your institutions. with the fourth estate being a key part of that as opposed to just isolating that element and realizing that they're just in it for their own angle. They're in it for the scandalous nature of it and they're getting out of it whatever they need and they'll use him and they'll use whoever they need to to get what they want. It's like 25 % of this is Lumet's network, right? Whereas network was like all this.

30:55Josh Larsen:Yeah, exactly.

30:55Adam Kempenaar:But just to really underline it here, the element that's so fascinating about Sonny and this idea of power and why he leans into it so much is you have to imagine this character, this man, Sonny, who otherwise in his life, based on everything that we see about him, about how he behaves, his actions, where he's at in his life to do something this desperate, the people around him, he is a man who feels and probably is powerless. And he probably speaks for a lot of New Yorkers who feel like they are powerless. And only now by doing this, when he stands out on a street, all of these people who have gathered, all of these police officers with guns drawn, he can say, put them down.

31:49Adam Kempenaar:Like you said, he can say, put the guns down and they put them down now that's power that's power for once in his life he has power and once you you feel that you can understand why that character is going to want to keep wielding that or is going to want to try to maintain it but here's where i do think lamette is and you mentioned this as well i think he's very sober about how he depicts not only sunny but how he depicts the crowd too if we're saying the crowd is recognizing that they don't want to be oppressed and they're fighting back against the police yes there's there's that part where not only are they cheering him on because they they see him doing this on their behalf if you will and there's a moment josh where remember when he throws the money after he pays for the pizza.

32:41Adam Kempenaar:There's a reason why Lamette shows as they throw the money and the people kind of fight over it. There's really no reason why the police have to go into the crowd and start beating people and pulling bodies out and putting cuffs on people because they're fighting over some dollars. So that's more injustice and more oppression. But here's something I certainly didn't catch on to back when I saw this movie originally many years ago. And I wonder what you made of it or if I'm trying to read too much into it. Every time he goes out there, every time Sonny goes out, the crowd has different chants or progressively they have different chants and they're cheering him on.

33:25Adam Kempenaar:At the end of the film, once his true story, the full story has been revealed, there's a moment where there's chants happening and Lamette scans the crowd and we realize that there is a faction of the crowd that is the gay community that is cheering for him. And what happens is they chant. You don't see, but you hear the other side of the crowd. They're booing. They're booing, I think very distinctly. And it just tells you that, you know, at some point they don't like their oppressors, but also So tribal instincts are going to kick in and we'll also turn on each other and we'll start trying to wield power over people we think that we can wield it over if we have to.

34:11Josh Larsen:I'm glad you mentioned that because, you know, we shouldn't elide over the fact that, yeah, there are political elements, different political elements at play here. And the queer community is definitely one. And there is that part of the crowd who are there to support Sonny after the news does break that it's for this gender affirming surgery for Leon. And, yeah, I think that's part of the nuance that Lumet brings, the honesty, because you can imagine another movie. And maybe, I don't know, maybe it's the way Lumet felt it should have been played in 1975. You can picture a movie like this made, well, not now, but maybe five years ago, where that would have been played up more.

34:51Josh Larsen:And suddenly Sonny became this champion of the queer community. And all of New York came out to support him. And to your point, that's not life. We are tribal. We do have our prejudices that rub up against each other in ugly ways. And so including that, maybe it goes back to what you're saying about the prologue where we do see these bits of New York, all of the boroughs of gritty daily life. And so Lumet wants to inject that sense of reality from the beginning all the way through the film. And these tribal instincts are a part of that.

35:23Adam Kempenaar:And in that intro, it's not just that we see mostly those gritty everyday aspects, but we also see flashes of people with their private pools. and we get a great match cut, Josh, which is a woman who's standing out on her little lawn. It seems like more of a suburban shot and it's not big. It's just a little patch of grass, but it's her little patch of grass and she has it and she's watering it. And the match cut is as she's spraying the water to a man who's spraying water on the cement, clearing the grime off of the street in front of his shop. And you just you get right there that that kind of collision and that whole sequence gives us the collision of the the working class, the the middle class and the leisure class.

36:17Adam Kempenaar:There are different shots that give that give us the full spectrum of the haves and the have nots there. But what really stands out to me and I wonder if you have any other we've we've hit on a few, but maybe there are some other specific moments of the filmmaking that really stood out to you. perspective, the way he uses point of view, the way Lamet withholds information here is something that really stood out to me this time. The fact that we don't know at all, there's no hint given of why they are robbing the bank. Now we can, we can deduce that it has something to do with desperation. They need the money, but there's no talk.

36:59Adam Kempenaar:There there's no, there's no initial discussion in the car. There's no getting to know the characters. There's no sense of here's why we might need the money. We don't know anything at all until about 38 minutes in. And that's when that phone call happens. And he says, well, I can't get a job and et cetera. We don't get the full story about Leon, but we get a little bit that does provide some view into the mind of Sonny and does also give us a little sympathy. You can see how the bank workers start to kind of change their perspective on him a little bit there because they can start to relate to him a little bit there.

37:39Adam Kempenaar:But also what it is, Josh, is I think it's Lumet kind of wisely saying, I'm not going to predispose you. I'm not going to allow you to be prejudiced towards these characters one way or another. I don't want you to have anything in their favor. The information is going to be revealed to you as the information is uncovered, as this event, this day goes on. And there's another great moment or there's another sequence that speaks to this, another choice that Lamette makes, Josh, with point of view. We don't see the police officers at all. We don't know that the police are gathering outside. We have no sense that they know that the bank is being robbed until Sonny sees them, until the reveal that the Durning is on the phone and Durning says, look out your window.

38:37Adam Kempenaar:I'm across the street or something like that. It's not until Sonny sees them that we see them. And earlier when that guy, the insurance guy across the street, it's Sal, then it's Sonny who sees them. So it's always their point of view. We spend most of our time with them. It is fundamentally about the human drama inside that bank and what's going on inside their troubled minds. It's not the procedural aspects. It's not the suspense. It's never really a question of, you know, are they going to get the jet? And unlike Inside Man, where it's kind of reversed, the main character is essentially the Charles Durning character, right?

39:16Adam Kempenaar:In Denzel, in Denzel Washington's detective. We never get Charles Durning's side of things other than briefly witnessing the conversation between the FBI man and Durning on the street as they first show up. And then when the first phone call is being set up, there's a little bit of cross cutting on that call. But other than that, Josh, we never just hang out with the cops unless unless Leon's on the phone. We don't know unless Sonny is talking to them. And so we're always shielded from that part of the conversation because we are always aligned with Sonny and with the people who are inside that bank.

39:56Adam Kempenaar:And then how about the choice to just have when Sheldon replaces him, Charles Durning just disappears. He just disappears from the story.

40:04Josh Larsen:You can see him kind of lingering around the background demoted, right?

40:07Adam Kempenaar:I know. And it's something about that just makes it all feel so much more real. It feels dispassionate the way life probably really is. It feels colder and it tells you, it signals to you. And I think it signals to Sonny that that something in this dynamic really has changed. And so just just making decisions like that in terms of perspective and subtle things like that really do align you with these characters in a way that I think I think that's what makes it feel so, so intimate.

40:39Josh Larsen:The claustrophobia, the way the filmmaking emphasizes that is very on point. There's that cutaway fairly early on to Angie, Sunny's wife, played by Susan Peretz, where cops are interviewing her. And it's almost jarring because we've left the bank and we've left the block, right? It's like, whoa, wait, this movie can do that? It's going to do that? Uh, yeah, I also, you know, in terms of the filmmaking, when we did our Lumet blind spots marathon, I think just about a year ago, this, this time I came to admire. And I think this became true further along in his career, the restraint he would show the way he, he did expertly and efficiently what was needed and, but often nothing more.

41:19Josh Larsen:and so I think of some of the early shots in the bank where it's a quick tracking shot from I think it probably starts with Stevie then hits Sonny and then hits Sal but without any edits and that you know has a sort of forcefulness to it that's different from what we've been getting so it does stand out then and it's effective the camera often becomes agitated when Sonny becomes agitated and follows him that again is very effective but it's not like Lumet is trying to use shaky cam the whole time to keep us on edge. And then there are moves like the very patient pan, but it's crucial that it's a pan, over the exhausted hostages, the tellers late into the night to capture again.

42:02Josh Larsen:Just the pacing has slowed down. There's a lethargy that has settled in. And we talked about this a lot, Adam, in our Lumet Blind Spots Marathon, but the effective editing in so many of his films. And here he's working with D.D. Allen, who also edited Bonnie and Clyde, a little movie known for its editing. And I think of the sequence where Sonny shoots at a window because he thinks the cops are trying to break in. And all of a sudden we get these frequent cuts to the hostages, to the cops outside, to the crowd, to Sonny. And it's like this barrage that, again, is very effective because it's not overused elsewhere throughout the movie.

42:44Josh Larsen:So yeah, I think dog day afternoon is a good example of Lumet at that, the restrained height of his powers. If you could say that, they use that phrase there.

42:54Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. And I want to emphasize what you said. I was actually very much struck by the fact that inside the bank, I think Lumet, my guess is Lumet made a choice based on how still the camera often is, or when it's moving, it is panning or it is tracking. It seems very steady. He recognizes going back to what I was saying about Pacino and how neurotic Sonny is, how flitty he is, how manic and chaotic that character is. The camera doesn't have to do any other work to get aggressively. more agitated. Doesn't need to oversell it. Exactly. Doesn't have to oversell it. So Lumet can actually go back to, you know, relying on more classical filmmaking.

43:39Adam Kempenaar:And there's, there's a, there's a great shot. There's a great moment. And it's, it's very small, but actually for me, really, really powerful and, and stressful at the same time that I think speaks to the, the merging of, of this kind of technique, bringing together both a little bit of agitation, but also the steadiness. And it's a memorable moment in the film because, and you know, John Cazale, just one of the all time great screen actors lost too early to us playing Sal in this film. Such a ticking time bomb here. I don't know if we could ever pull off a top five like this someday. Top five, top five character reversals or something where the reversal is simply a character says one thing that absolutely devastates you because you believe you think you know what they mean you're sure you know what they mean and it kind of breaks your heart and then the next thing out of your mouth completely contradicts what they just said and and that also shocks you and kind of breaks your heart but in a different way and i'm referring to the part where he says did you really mean it what you were saying about killing all the hostages and starting to throw the bodies out the door after the first time Sonny says it the way Sal says that line and of course his whole temperament up to this point in the film but really throughout the film you think he's asking did you really mean this like are you going to ask me to to kill these people we're really going to do that did you mean that that's that's what you think he needs.

45:21Adam Kempenaar:Were you serious about what you said? About what? About throwing...

45:29Adam Kempenaar:About throwing those bodies at the door. And then the next thing he says, Josh, is... Because I'll tell you right now, I'm ready to do it. It's shocking and horrifying, but here's the filmmaking. That shot starts with Sal sitting on the ground up against the wall, and the camera he's in the bottom left of the frame. Pacino walks through, I think, a doorway more centered in the frame. There are people, the bank workers in the middle and kind of against the back of a wall. Pacino walks in and then walks to the right of the frame. The camera just follows him, just pans. It's clearly on a tripod or seems to be on a tripod and just pans to the right smoothly as Pacino does, but then Sal says something to him.

46:17Adam Kempenaar:So Pacino starts to walk from right to left on the frame, kind of diagonal towards Sal to, to talk to him. And as it does, the camera starts to pan with him. But as he gets closer to Sal, you realize it's not, it's not just panning because the camera is on a track and it actually very quickly, it doesn't cover a big distance at all. It covers maybe like three feet, Josh, but it, in those three feet, it tracks forward very quickly. And just that very quickly, that tracking so rapidly signals to you that something momentous, something really heavy is about, and something very stressful is about to go down.

47:00Adam Kempenaar:But it's all set up just by, again, very classical filmmaking with a steady shot and a pan to the right.

47:08Josh Larsen:So that's a very harrowing moment. I want to bring up my second revelation I had, which is totally in the opposite direction of harrowing, actually. So if my first revelation was how topically political Dog Day Afternoon is, the second, and David L. Williams mentioned this in his email that I referenced at the top here, is how funny this is. I mean, that bit you called out about the flower box, Adam, I mean, it does speak to Sonny's clumsiness and how he's not this smooth professional, but it's also a great bit of physical comedy. I mean, the way he sustains it and keeps flipping it all over the place.

47:47Josh Larsen:You've already called out the other bit. How do I get home? Stevie? I mean, it does speak to Sonny's kindness, but at the same time, what is going on here? I mean, is this a farce? Is this movie going to be a crime comedy at this point? We wonder. How about the touch? I know where you're going next. Sonny has thought ahead to spray paint the cameras, right? Oh, yeah. And so he's got the spray paint. He goes right to him. Jumping. He can't get up there. Has to grab a chair. So, you know, we mentioned at the top of the show that no money in the bank. And then, you know, what's with all this concern about language?

48:23Josh Larsen:Obviously, it's maybe of the era. Everything else going on. How many times does a character like Mulvaney, again, the bank manager, and we've mentioned him a number of times. So Sully Boyar playing Mulvaney. He says at one point, I think it's him. We've got young girls here. You could watch your language. That's a top priority. I'm a Christian, one of the women says, and my ears aren't a toilet. Exactly. And then the last comedic bit I can think of is, how about the recurring bit with Jenny, the teller, played by Carol Kane, on the phone with her husband. First, she's telling him how to make his dinner.

48:59Josh Larsen:And then three hours later, how to put the baby to bed, how to take care of the baby. Like this, yeah, this is this guy's biggest problem. I know his wife is a hostage, but there's something about that.

49:10Adam Kempenaar:That is also hilarious and just so poignant for me. And also sums up the entire film. This, this realism where it's a bank robbery and we're so used to movies where then the bank robbery becomes everything. But with this bank robbery, everyday life still happens. It's still going on. Yeah. Right. Stevie still has to get home. And that phone call, the first phone call to her is, he wants to know when you're going to be through. That's my favorite bit. That's her response. As if, hey, I'm being held hostage, but like, hey, I got plans later.

49:45Josh Larsen:That also speaks to how seriously they're taking Sonny, right? True.

49:50Adam Kempenaar:And they have reason not to.

49:52Josh Larsen:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And the comedy, obviously, it starts to trickle away as the movie becomes more intense and harrowing. I also real quick want to call up Penelope Allen, who plays Sylvia, the head teller. She's responsible for a lot of great comic bits. She sticks up for, quote unquote, her girls, you know, and pushes back on Sonny and Sal.

50:12Adam Kempenaar:Penny Allen, also in Scarecrow, which we both watched in preparation for our Gene Hackman Top 5. I have my favorite bit from her that tells you everything you need to know about how good she is as an actress, but also how good Sylvia is as a person or what kind of person she is, what her character is. When she goes outside and they're about to go back in and Durning puts his hands on her like he's going to kind of keep her outside. And her line is, what's with the hands? What's with the hands? Good for her. She's like, she's like, she can't believe that this cop is touching her. She's going to go back inside.

50:51Adam Kempenaar:You know, and I do think that's that's a great touch. I really like Penny Allen in the film. But Josh, you actually left out. You omitted what is, I'd say, inarguably both the most heartbreaking and heartbreakingly hilarious line in this movie. And it's actually probably the most famous line in the movie. So maybe that's why you omitted it. Is there any special country you want to go to?

51:19Adam Kempenaar:Wyoming. No, Wyoming. That's not a country. That's all right. I'm going to take care of it. Yeah, Wyoming's good. Wyoming's good. But as he says on the phone, like, what are you going to do when your partner in this bit doesn't know Wyoming's not a country, right? I mean, he says that later. And, like, the delivery of Wyoming, the sincerity with which he answers the question, what country do you want to fly to? and he says, where have you always wanted to go? And he says, Wyoming. Yeah, it is very sad. I can imagine people sitting in the theater in 1975 and laughing, but also the situation is so tense and you know he's so serious that you probably stifled it pretty quickly.

52:02Adam Kempenaar:I do want to mention the phone call. And this goes back to, I think, the point of view and the withholding point I was making. The phone call with Leon. Yeah, we got to talk about this. It's such a fantastic and moving scene. And part of what makes it so, I think, Josh, is that I was I was really thinking about this as I watched. I almost fooled myself into thinking because Lumet almost fooled me into thinking that the police weren't listening. Well, these guys that have me down here, you know, they think I'm a part of it, you know? They think I'm a part of the plot to rob the bank. Oh, that's crazy, Leon.

52:44Adam Kempenaar:That's crazy. They're just... They're bullshitting you. They're giving you a snow job. Well, no, they told me I was an accessory. No, that's just a con job on you, Leon. Don't listen to me. Well, I have to listen to it. No. Well, I can't survive in prison, Sonny. Oh, Leon, you're not going to prison. Nobody's going to... Well, how do you know? Because I know you're not going to prison. Believe me. Look, please. Just tell him. Just tell him what? That you didn't do it? Just know where am I going to? Are they on the phone now? Are they on the phone now? Yeah. That's great. I thought to myself, they have to be.

53:17Adam Kempenaar:They have to be. I've seen enough of these movies. There's no way they were letting them talk and not listening in. But the conversation goes on long enough. The conversation seems vulnerable enough and honest enough. It seems as though Sonny really doesn't feel like there are other people on the line. It seems like he really believes, and this is him being naive, that he really believes that it's just him and Leon. And the way that we got fooled is that we don't actually see that there are cops on the line until Sonny finds out that there are cops on the line. The entire sequence is shot for multiple minutes, just shot, reverse shot, even though they're in different spaces between Leon and Sonny.

54:04Adam Kempenaar:And it isn't until something comes up about the cops listening that we finally see the other faces that are in the room and everything about Sonny's demeanor then changes. Of course, the conversation isn't as honest and vulnerable then. And it wouldn't have been had even for us, it would have changed the dynamic as viewers. Had we known it certainly would have changed it for Sonny had he known, but it would have changed the dynamic for us. But it feels like it feels like we're privy to something. We're the only ones privy to it because we don't know. that the police are listening. So again, very intentional by Lumet.

54:37Adam Kempenaar:But here's what else is so fascinating about what Lumet does there. Watch that shot reverse shot. And how about Chris Sarandon as Leon? First film role. He had like three TV movies at that point, Josh. That was his first screen role. They are framed precisely in the center of the frame. It's like their heads are completely interchangeable. they are in the same extreme close-up you know at the at the neck really and they're just slightly framed so that even though they're dead center i think it's sunny who is looking just slightly left to right on screen and leon might be just looking slightly right to left so it it feels a little bit like a a shot reverse shot we're used to seeing right in a film it feels like there in dialogue with each other, but the way they're centered in the frame, it feels like there is some kind of connection across this space that they inhabit.

55:40Adam Kempenaar:And you believe that when you listen to them talk to each other. Compare that to when he gets on the phone with Angie. Okay. I know. I let myself get fat. No, don't call yourself fat. Don't call yourself fat. I know you can't stand me to say I'm fat. I can't stand you being a bankrupt, Sonny. That's what love is. Yeah. Well, you know what love is, right? Yeah. So if you know what love is so much, why don't you come down here? Where are you? Well. Talk to me about love. Go ahead. Sonny, I'm scared. The framing is the same in terms of the close-up, but within that frame, they are both constantly shifting.

56:20Adam Kempenaar:They're never aligned together in the shot. It is as if they are both trying to find some kind of balance. They're both trying to find some kind of harmony with each other, and they just cannot do it. They simply can't do it the way that he was able to find it with Leon. And it's subtle, but it's there.

56:37Josh Larsen:For the call between Sonny and Leon, everything you're describing to me is all about preserving their privacy and their intimacy. and obviously we're in on it. Um, but as you said, in, uh, a closer way than we would be if we knew that the cops were watching and if it wasn't filmed this way. And part of that is the time that is given. There are a lot of fast frantic conversations in this movie, but here when Sonny and Leon are on the phone together, Lumet and, you know, I would, I would credit the cinematographer here, Victor Kemper for, for a patience with the camera. they give Sonny and Leon a time to tell their story.

57:17Josh Larsen:And they give them the private space to do that. We're allowed in, but not, we don't know yet, but not many other people are. And, you know, you're right. It moves in, the camera moves in to a closeup as Leon is telling the story. There's a snicker from a cop in the background that I took to be a critique of the cop's attitude. This is one of the things I was curious about, Adam, going into Dog Day Afternoon is how it was going to handle this storyline. And then we get another slow move in of the camera. So slow that you might not even notice it as Leon talks to Sonny. Very respectful. And I do think Sarandon gives, you know, for the era, a very restrained portrayal of someone like this who's seeking, a man seeking gender-affirming surgery to become a woman.

58:05Josh Larsen:And he also, his credits later, noticed this when looking things up, the voice of Jack Skellington in Nightmare Before Christmas. So how about that? But yeah, really wonderful performance here, I think. And also a very nuanced handling of this storyline, which I was kind of relieved to see, honestly, since it's been, what, 20 years since I'd last seen this.

58:27Adam Kempenaar:Is there anything we have talked for quite a while about this film? It certainly deserves it. Is there anything in your notes you feel like we have to get out before we go?

58:36Josh Larsen:I mean, I think we touched on the media critique element enough and how it ties in, as you pointed out, to the politics. I think that that is crucial, but it is definitely a major theme to the movie. And yeah, I don't know that we need to go over any more of that ground unless there's something along those lines you wanted to touch on. But some might think we're taking, giving that short shrift, but, um, you know, if you want, if you want the full throated version of that, go to Lumet's network for sure.

59:07Adam Kempenaar:Absolutely. And I can't recommend more highly, especially if you haven't seen them, but even if you have, and maybe it's been a while, watch dog day afternoon and then go watch inside man. Man, what a double feature that is. Dog Day Afternoon was added to the Film Spotting Pantheon back in August 2011. Maybe? Episode 359? Our top five inner city movies? We're not totally sure. We'll have to look at the Film Spotting Guide to the Archives. We do know it's in the Pantheon. This was part of our Pantheon project looking at it here on its 50th anniversary. I don't know, Josh. Do you think Dog Day should stay in the Pantheon?

59:43Adam Kempenaar:Let's keep it. Okay, we'll keep it. It's available VOD and streaming on Paramount+. Plus, if you agree or disagree with our takes on the film or you have any other thoughts you'd like to share, please email us feedback at filmspotting.net. And if you would like to learn more about the Film Spotting Pantheon, you can do that at filmspotting.net slash pantheon.

1:00:02Josh Larsen:Listening is the number one thing you can do to support an independently produced show like Film Spotting. A couple of other things you can do. Take a minute to give us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Here's an even more substantial way you can support us. join the FilmSpotting family at FilmSpottingFamily.com. Thank you very much to family member Chris Myers in Chaska, Minnesota. Chris's letterbox handle, if you want to follow him there, is MPLS underscore film underscore nerd.

1:00:32Adam Kempenaar:Okay, so Minneapolis film nerd, but, you know, with an abbreviation there for Minneapolis and some underscores. Chris writes, started listening in 2009. I remember the movie Precious being reviewed the first time I listened. Your podcast has been in my life now for 15 years. Thank you for putting out such quality content this whole time. I recently listened to the review of Kinds of Kindness, and when you snuck in a reference to the song Little Buddha by Toad the Wet Sprocket, I knew I had to become a family member. Thank you for sharing your love of movies with us all. Don't ever stop. You would be sorely missed.

1:01:04Adam Kempenaar:So I'm going to blow Chris's mind for a second here because you know who else was listening to that review of Kinds of Kindness when it came out? I think back originally in January when I dropped that random reference to Little Buddha by Toad the Wet Sprocket. Dean Denning, the bass player for Toad the Wet Sprocket and his wife, Nicole. They happen to be longtime film spotting listeners, it turns out, and fellow film spotting family members, Chris. Wow. So they probably appreciated it even more. I imagine so. And they reached out. Very nice to hear from Nicole. Turns out, Josh, that Nicole and Dean were at our live show in L.A.

1:01:50Adam Kempenaar:They came to the live show, probably even met us before the show, and I didn't make the connection. And of course, now I regret it. But you know what? In a little over a month, Toad the Wet Sprocket is playing just a couple hours away from me, and I am going to be there. It's going to be great. I mean, you got to work this into a backstage pass or something. We'll see. We'll see if I can pull some strings. I don't know. I don't know if they like the show that much. I don't know. A favorite review or segment. I love it when you go back to a specific year in the past and do a top five for the year, especially loved any year from the eighties or nineties.

1:02:29Adam Kempenaar:Those were my formative years when I really fell in love with film.

1:02:33Josh Larsen:We're probably due for one of those. Don't, don't you think it's spent a little while?

1:02:36Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I thought you might say that. And actually, we only have one year from the 80s that's left, and I think it's 1980. And if you recall, the only problem with that is we pretty much agreed that there's kind of an obvious five great films from 1980. We thought it was going to be pretty boring. Joint list, maybe. Yeah, maybe a joint list. We'll get to it. A review we got wrong. He says, I recently watched Babylon. I thought it was amazingly entertaining and ambitious filmmaking. Surprised you guys didn't like it more. I liked it more than you, but yeah.

1:03:11Josh Larsen:Definitely do for a revisit, for sure. Because didn't it come like that year-end rush? And I think so.

1:03:18Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, should watch it again. Letterboxd Top 4, Magnolia, Fargo, Mulholland Drive, 2001. Great stuff. Favorite movie he revisited recently, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. I hadn't watched this since it came out back in 1989. For Father's Day, I watched it with my daughter, and it was even better than I remembered. Nice. Yeah. I mean, it's at least for me, top five Spielberg. It might even be top three Spielberg. A random film or filmmaker that he loves, David Lynch. A movie Chris credits with becoming a cinephile, Do the Right Thing, and he recommends any of Roger Ebert's review books when he thinks about books, about movies, or movie making.

1:03:57Adam Kempenaar:We thank Chris for all his years of listening and for being part of the FilmSpotting family. In addition to keeping us doing what we're doing, your FilmSpotting family support comes with perks. You get to listen early and ad-free. You get our weekly newsletter. You get exclusive opportunities like being part of the FilmSpotting family Discord, and you get monthly bonus shows coming up soon here. You're going to get our blind cow review. Josh hasn't seen it. I have. Sam hasn't seen it. Stray Dog, Akira Kurosawa. It is on the Criterion channel. If you're a subscriber, it is also apparently on something called Plex, which I believe is free.

1:04:35Adam Kempenaar:I think it's playing free on Plex. If you need to check out Akira Kurosawa, Stray Dog, or, you know, look at your local library, see if you can get it. Picking up. We're going to be talking about it. My DVD from the library tomorrow and watching it then. Can't wait. Okay. Learn more at filmspottingfamily.com. Time to cut you down to size. Huh? He's not exactly your average kid. That's from the English dub of Neja 2, which comes to theaters this weekend. I'm just trusting what I'm reading here, Sam's notes. It's right behind three James Cameron movies and Avengers Endgame all time in terms of box office.

1:05:15Adam Kempenaar:Incredible. The Chinese animated film is the sequel to 2019's Nezha. That's 141st all time at the global box office. You've done your homework. You saw the original and the sequel. There are dragon clans, celestial forces, perilous trials. The fate of both mortals and immortals hangs in the balance. Also, Nezha 2 is two hours and 20 minutes left. enlighten us on this global phenomenon.

1:05:48Josh Larsen:Yeah, I mean, animation fans have to check this out. The visuals are astonishing across both films. As you can tell from that description, this sequel widens the world quite a bit. And in terms of the animation and the visuals, I think that's a benefit. You do lose a little bit of the emotional core of the first film, which is all about this title character an impulsively naughty demon boy who it's no wonder kids love this character because he's somewhat been cursed to be a demon. So he gets into all sorts of trouble, causes trouble, doesn't always mean to, and it's not always his fault. So you can see how kids with naughty impulses themselves might enjoy that.

1:06:32Josh Larsen:And there's a lot of amusing humor that comes with it. And Nezha's story, it's interesting because it starts out and you think that this sequel is going to explore one of the more intriguing themes of the first film, which is trying to balance these warring natures inside yourself. Because Nezha is the fiery spirit, of course, and in the first film is another character, Ao Bing, who is basically his ice-empowered counterpart. So they balance each other off. They become friends. And at the start of Nezhatu, for elaborate reasons I'm not going to get into, they have to share the same body. And so there's some humor there, some intriguing battle scenes there, and it is all about how to balance your best and worst impulses.

1:07:19Josh Larsen:I think I might have liked Nezhatu even more if it had just stuck with that, but it kind of drops that after a while to bring in a whole host of new characters and new worlds and new realities. I didn't mind so much because this just looks so incredible, Adam. And my screening was IMAX in 3D. There is a brightness and a clarity to these action sequences. the line work of the characters and the movement going on that is, it's like an oasis for those of us who have become dulled by the drudgery of the effects in the later MCU movies, say. Just to see this level of brightness and clarity is so refreshing.

1:08:08Josh Larsen:And you get these amazingly imaginative things like these sea-themed abyss monsters. There's a slithering dragons. There's a jade palace that's resplendent with fountains. It's watched over by a flock of jade birds. All this stuff is just washing over you and a climactic image of a gigantic tree that I don't want to give away, but it's almost worth it to weather a lot of the lore and the mythology to get to an image like that for me. So yeah, I think this movie's biggest accomplishment is kind of maximalizing nature to these really awesomely cosmic proportions, and you can get lost in that. So I would recommend, of course, seeing Nezha first, if you haven't, to get a real hold of that character, that central character, and then go out, find a big screen.

1:09:02Josh Larsen:I saw it at one of the regals here in Chicago and let Nezhatu just wash over you.

1:09:09Adam Kempenaar:Nezhatu, the English dub, is out in wide release.

1:09:17Adam Kempenaar:What the W? What is going on? Whoa, whoa, whoa. No dogs allowed in the blog park. What? What? Just take it up with the mayor, Bubbo. I also wanted to mention AJ goes to the dog park. Josh, this is a new movie that's written and directed by Toby Jones, who is an animator that works on regular show and OK KO Let's Be Heroes. The movie opened theatrically at the end of July in L.A., New York, Austin, D.C. and Seattle. It played at the Music Box in Chicago. And there are a couple people, at least a couple people associated with this movie who are film spotting listeners. So I'm not going to give it a normal review, but I wanted to mention that I don't think it's playing in theaters anymore, but on August 26th, it will be available VOD.

1:10:09Adam Kempenaar:And I watched it in something that speaks to the sensibility and the manic energy of this film. It's about 80 minutes long. My daughter, who's five, walked in maybe about 30 minutes into it. And again, she's five. She walks up to the television and then proceeds to stand there and watch the entire rest of the movie. She has no idea what's going on, but she is so transfixed by the chaos that's happening on screen. A lot of it actually cartoonish because, of course, there is animation here as well. But it is that energy about it. It is the nonsensical nature of it. It is the fact that it is a joke every five seconds or so in this film.

1:11:07Adam Kempenaar:But also, it's a very sweetly sincere movie at its core. It has a DIY, very intentional DIY aesthetic to it. the movie at times feels like what you might get if you mixed something like The Room with SpongeBob SquarePants. That's what I felt like watching AJ Goes to the Dog Park. And if that sounds like it might appeal to you, then you might like the film, which is available VOD on August 26th. Congrats to Toby and all the other listeners involved. Very exciting. We did also want to take a moment here to acknowledge the passing of British actor Terrence Stamp. He has credits going back to the early 60s.

1:11:56Adam Kempenaar:I love him in Peter Ustinov's Billy Budd from 1962. He's in Far From the Madding Crowd, the John Schlesinger film with Julie Christie. He's Zod, of course, in Superman 2. Rise before Zod.

1:12:15No. kneel before I saw it.

1:12:20Adam Kempenaar:He's in The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert with Hugo Weaving and Guy Pearce, The Limey, the Steven Soderbergh film in 99. His last film credit was Edgar Wright's Last Night in Soho. Do you associate any film in particular with Terrence Stamp?

1:12:36Josh Larsen:I mean, the nostalgia part of me goes with Zod, right? But I think it should probably be The Limey because he's such an important fixture and factor in that movie, even though I think the editing scheme, I think Soderbergh thinks the editing scheme is the star. And that doesn't mean that I think Soderbergh is discounting Stamp at all. Obviously, he cast him because he's a legend. But I do think that's maybe the top priority of the Limey from a filmmaking point of view is the editing. And yet somehow Stamp is like, I don't care if you're only going to give me one and a half seconds before you cut somewhere else.

1:13:17Josh Larsen:I'm going to grab that one and a half seconds by the throat. And maybe that's kind of how he approached all of his roles. He had that ferocity.

1:13:25Adam Kempenaar:I think about the Limey for sure. Of course, like you, I'm going to go back to Superman 2. The Collector, a late William Wyler film, is another Terrence Stamp performance I do think of pretty fondly. And there's a Pasolini film called Teorema that's very notable as well, partly because a pretty good movie from this year, Misericordia. If you've seen it or if you haven't seen it yet, watch that film. And then if you haven't seen Teorema, the Pasolini film, you have to watch it because it's clearly a touchstone for that movie. And the main character in Misericordia has to be a character who's drawn from the character Stamp plays in that film.

1:14:08Adam Kempenaar:Once I made that connection, it unlocked for me what was going on in Misericordia. I do want to note that the timing of this was crazy. I got asked to appear on a podcast that I've been on once before called Movie of the Year with a couple other guys, one of them, three other guys. One of them is a longtime film spotting listener, Ryan Haley. they look at movies, they pick a handful of movies that are well known and usually pretty acclaimed from a certain movie year. And at the end, they have different guests on, they talk about each one, and they try to crown a winner from that year. They gave me a list from 1999, several months ago.

1:14:52Adam Kempenaar:And the one I picked, Josh, because I hadn't seen it in so long, I don't think I've seen it since it came out in 1999 was The Limey. I wanted to rewatch The Limey. You know I'm a Soderbergh guy. I recall that I had fond feelings for it. I actually hadn't looked at where I ranked it on my Soderbergh list until I was recording the podcast the other night. I didn't realize I had it quite so high. I actually have it fourth on the list. Take that for what it's worth. I haven't seen it until recently or going back to 1999. 99, but I have it fourth. I wanted to see it partly because for me, I think about it as much as I like Terrence Stamp and as much as I like Soderbergh, I was like, is this just the movie where I'm going to watch and enjoy?

1:15:39Adam Kempenaar:I'm going to kind of relish this revenge flick stamp being this badass on screen and Soderbergh doing the Soderbergh thing with the nonlinear editing, or is there going to be something more to this film to grasp onto? That was, that was what I wanted to see. Guess what? I thought there was a lot more to grasp onto. I, I do understand what you're saying. And I think that's a legitimate concern, but not only do I think, you know, I think Terrence Stamp's performance is really great in the movie. I came to feel like the editing so serves the story ultimately. Sure. And I, I, it didn't feel to me just like Soderbergh was trying to be flashy so much.

1:16:22As I know, some people feel like he might want to do on occasion,

1:16:27Adam Kempenaar:or he's just experimenting a little bit too much. Man, does it fit with what that movie, I think, is really trying to wrestle with. So you can hear me talk about that. I thought we had a really good conversation on Movie of the Year podcast. You can hear that if you're curious when it comes out. That episode is going to drop, I think, on September 4th. So when we get closer, I'll mention it. I'll put a link in our show notes, but you have to wait a couple of weeks. But it the timing I mentioned, though, Josh, not only did I just rewatch the limey and record this podcast, but we taped the podcast on Sunday, the 17th in the evening and woke up that morning and heard the news that he had he had passed away.

1:17:12Adam Kempenaar:So really, really sad and unfortunate, but I was really glad that I had the occasion to not just have him be a distant memory, but have this really fresh experience with him on screen and be able to remember, to very vividly recall just how great he was on screen. What a face. You tell him! You tell him I'm coming! Tell him I'm coming! We also wanted to discuss some more unfortunate news, which relates to our friend Michael Phillips, someone you hear very frequently on this podcast. And he posted it as we're recording this on his social media channels earlier today. It's something he did share with us a little bit in advance, and we knew it was coming, which is that somehow, Josh, the city of Chicago, the city that gave us Siskel and Ebert, the rival film critics from the Chicago Tribune and the Chicago Sun-Times, there's no more print film critics.

1:18:22Adam Kempenaar:Sun-Times doesn't have one, and the Tribune no longer has one. And Michael Phillips was offered an assignment, a reassignment, or offered to take a buyout. And he decided to take a buyout. And as he put it, time for something new somewhere else. And he'll have an exit column later in the week. So by the time you're hearing this, that exit column will probably be posted over at ChicagoTribune.com slash movies. He mentions in his posts that he'll still be appearing on Film Spotting and on WFMT on Saturdays in Chicago on that radio station. We will still be featuring him here, but he's going to take some time to figure out what he's going to do next.

1:19:04Josh Larsen:Not only do the Trib and sometimes not have a full-time film critic, and I haven't done the research on this, but I don't think there's a full-time film critic working in Chicago or the suburbs right now. Yeah, in print. I don't know even like digitally, like full-time, like that's your job. You know, I might be wrong. I would love to hear that I am and, and, you know, reach out to me if, if you're out there and you're, you're doing that, which is a travesty for a city like Chicago. And I'm not just talking about its size. It's, it's not just because it's a huge city. It's because it's a film culture city.

1:19:38Josh Larsen:As you said, going back to Siskel and Ebert and others, and the fact that there's a thriving film scene here. I mean, we have so many great theaters doing work in terms of programming that's interesting and international film, independent film. There is plenty here going on to devote a full-time position to cover, is the point. So this is just more evidence of what's going on in the media overall. We hear about either a critic we know or they're just colleagues whose work we know almost monthly that this is happening to. And when I shared Michael's news on Blue Sky, it struck me that this one, of course, is especially painful because not only is, as you said, Michael a friend, just hung out with him socially this weekend, but I grew up in a Trib household.

1:20:28Josh Larsen:I mean, I read Siskel at home and then I read Ebert at the school library in the Sun-Times. I remember when the Tribune had two critics after Michael Phillips, Michael Wilmington was there and Dave Kerr was there. Wow. I mean, the degree to which culture has eroded on this front is, as everyone listening to the show knows, is devastating. So I'm at least glad podcasts are a place where this is still happening and Michael through us can still be a part of the film conversation that way. That is some silver lining, I guess, in all this.

1:21:10Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, you will hear Michael back on the show in September and throughout the year here on Film Spotting. We'll keep you posted as we hear more. Michael will keep you posted as he comes up with more. He'll share that with you here on the show. Some other housekeeping we wanted to make you aware of. We recently had a Film Spotting Family advisory board meeting, and we were looking at some other movies that were celebrating anniversaries this year but aren't tied to our Pantheon project. movies that would just be sacred cow reviews, thinking about which ones we want to make priorities and really focus on.

1:21:53Adam Kempenaar:And it was hard to just narrow it down to 10, honestly, because there are so many that are worth talking about movies that are celebrating 15th anniversaries or 30th anniversaries on up to 75th and 80th anniversaries. We gave the advisory board a chance to vote on these 10 to rank them. And then we looked at how the results shook out. We also shared our top five, me, you, Josh, and of course, producer Sam. I'll just briefly here share what emerged as the top three from the family. And we were pretty well aligned. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon for its 25th was one that we all seemed pretty well aligned on.

1:22:34Adam Kempenaar:Heat for its 30th anniversary was another one that there was a lot of eagerness to hear. And the FAB also, in particular, was excited about All About Eve celebrating its 75th anniversary.

1:22:49Josh Larsen:Yeah. Can't wait. Can't wait to get to all of these. And what's the process from here now, Adam? I don't know. Are we putting this out to the wider family vote? It's a good question. Okay. We'll figure that out. But just a note along those lines, this isn't some secret council. If you want to be part of the film spotting advisory board, it is open to, it's open to anyone. If you're already a member of the film spotting family, it's just a different tier. You can join. If you haven't joined the family at all, jump in and jump in at the top. You can meet with us, have conversations like this and really direct the content of the show.

1:23:25Adam Kempenaar:So plugged like an absolute pro there, Josh, and join the family, especially if you want to direct us to talk about Rocky four for its 40th anniversary. Like I want to, it was an option. So that option that didn't fare well. If you feel passionately about Rocky four, get in quickly. So another part of the call that we devoted time to not enough, but we devoted time to was film spotting madness, 2026. If you're a regular listener of the show, you know that we are planning to probably conclude our decades approach, the 1940s. We have shared the shortlist. The shortlist is the list of movies that Sam and I, the selection committee, plan to choose from when putting together the final tournament field.

1:24:16Adam Kempenaar:That means 64 movies, but also usually maybe up to about 20 more that are inclusive of play-ins. But the shortlist then goes even beyond that because we just can't decide. We need the deadline usually of it being February to force us to actually decide on those 75 to 80 films. And we don't want to make people mad. So we're just like, sure, here's the shortlist. Here's 112 movies. Well, we gave you those 112 movies earlier than ever, and we were feeling pretty good about ourselves. But then we had a family member who you heard from last week, if you heard his 20th anniversary message that he sent, Eric Nelson, Racine, Wisconsin.

1:25:01Adam Kempenaar:He crunched a bunch of numbers, and he pointed out what we knew, but really just the vast disparity between the number of films people, as you would imagine, have seen Josh. like on Letterboxd, the number of films people have logged from the 2010s, the 2000s, the 90s, the 80s even, versus decades like the 50s and 40s. And we want people to participate. We want people to be interested in the conversations we're having about these movies, to vote, and just to see these movies, to care about film spotting madness. So the point of the conversation was, what can we do? What can we do as a show to not just say, hey, here's the short list, and then nine months later, the tournament starts?

1:25:46Adam Kempenaar:What can we do to encourage people even more to see these movies and be ready? What I thought was so funny about this, Josh, is that all this thought and energy went into this conversation. I'm racking my brain, and I'm looking to the family, to the advisory board to come up with brilliant ideas. And thank God he didn't say it in any kind of disparaging or sarcastic way. But one FAB member, Scott Bosch, raises his hand and he says, you know, the easiest way to get me more involved so I can vote in all the polls would be to just post the final list of all the movies that are going to be in Madness.

1:26:37Adam Kempenaar:as early as possible. And I don't know if people on the call saw like all the blood drained from my face because I realize all this consternation and the fact is the easiest way to get people to participate even more would be to just give them the final list of films as early as possible. Indeed. And not have them waste their time watching potentially 30 to 40 movies that aren't even going to make the tournament. That's a good point. It's a great point, Scott. And this is why we have these film spotting advisory board calls. So it's basically to get our heads out of our asses. This is the point, Josh, is it's it's about film spotting, needing our listeners or else the show would die.

1:27:30Adam Kempenaar:our best ideas have always come from our audience and that weekend i set about in collaboration with sam to rectify this so in summary the film spotting madness final list is available now 112 movies has been pared down to 80 these are the 80 we think will be in the final bracket with plans. It could decrease slightly because maybe we'll find that some movies are not available on digital platforms. And if you can't see them, then there's really no point in having them be part of madness. But these are the 80 we're expecting to be in the tournament. So if you're doing your homework or you want to do your homework between now and the start of film spotting madness, 1940s, we're at least giving you the 80 films that are going to be part of it.

1:28:19Adam Kempenaar:And you can start crossing off the ones that are the biggest blind spots for you anyway, if you don't think you're going to get to all of them. So we'll put the link in our show notes here at our website, and you can always go to filmspotting.net slash madness.

1:28:33Josh Larsen:So I'm excited about this because as you know, Adam, my favorite thing about film spotting madness is not all the planning, the consternation, the back and forth, basically the stuff that Scott said was unnecessary. my excitement about film spotting madness is getting to see and having motivation to knock off blind spots depending on what the theme is right i mean that's what drives that's what drives it all anyway exactly last year was fun we did you know the best of you know this century so 20 to 2020 to 25 and that was fun but i really like when we do something like the 40s and then i look at the list you and sam put together and what do i see stray dog well i get to another film spotting family plug.

1:29:15Josh Larsen:I get to knock that out because it's going to be an upcoming bonus episode, right? For film spotting family members, but something like my darling Clementine, Red River. Uh, what else do I see here? The lost weekend. Yeah. I'm a fraud. I'm a fraud, Adam, but now because of film spotting madness, I just have that one extra reason that one nudge to watch. And those are just three of the films that I haven't seen that are on the short list. So yeah, great idea you know maybe an obvious one scott but that's what you're there for to point that out to us and get on it anyone who wants to play film spotting madness in a couple of months

1:29:53Adam Kempenaar:what's fun too is that and we discussed this a little while back actually in the film spotting slack your biggest like five to seven blind spots i've seen and my biggest five to seven blind spots you've seen. Of course. So we can't even really knock them off together. And that's why we're doing Stray Dog and It's a Blind Cow. I've already seen that film. I've seen Red River. I've seen My Darling Clementine. I've seen The Lost Weekend. You have seen some of the other ones I need to see, like Gaslight, for example. So fun. And what else? I need to see... Oh, you've seen Late Spring. I think that's a zoo I need to see.

1:30:31Adam Kempenaar:There are a few others on here. All the King's Men is a big blind spot for me. So yeah. It's going to be fun. We have some good stuff to cross off, and that is ultimately the purpose of Film Spotting Madness. Now, we have some personal news about you, Josh, to go to counter the professional news with Michael. And this is good news that you're going to share with your audience. Yes, a good point.

1:30:58Josh Larsen:to lead with that. I am going to be heading off to Scotland, Debbie and I, in actually two weeks from recording this. And I shared this with the Film Spotting Advisory Board last week. It's a temporary move, but I'm going to be pursuing a master's degree in theology and the arts at the University of St. Andrews. How in the world did I end up all the way over there? This is a program I've been circling for a while now at University of St. Andrews. They have a unique institute. It's the Institute for Theology, Imagination, and the Arts. It's part of their School of Divinity, and this is a degree in that program.

1:31:41Josh Larsen:And it seems, honestly, it seems tailor-made for me. I was talking to my older daughter and showing her my class list because I got it about a week or two ago. She's like, did they just make this for you? It's like, well, it kind of feels that way. So that's why I'm doing it. I've heard about it from colleagues when I was working at Think Christian, some of whom went to this exact same program, others of whom got their PhD at the University of St. Andrews, and they were all very encouraging. It's basically, to give listeners an idea of what I'll be doing, it's basically the same sort of work I've been doing in my book.

1:32:20Josh Larsen:So movies are prayers and fear not Christian appreciation of horror movies, except I'll be able to sort of build the foundation that I had, but in unconventional ways, like through professional work with Thank Christian, my own reading, my upbringing, just being in this reform tradition. that was all very helpful, but I never got the academic foundation, right? So this is a chance to strengthen and build that, continue that sort of work. They describe this program as basically for artists who want to incorporate theology into their work or for those in ministry who want to incorporate the arts into their work.

1:33:05Josh Larsen:And I'm neither of those, but I like to think as a critic who has written books like that, I'm sort of like at the nexus, right? I'm in the middle of that. So I do think it's a good fit. It's a year long program. So I will be away for sure. Nine months might be able to come back to Chicago, write the dissertation from here. And yeah, most importantly, it is, you know, it's not going to cost me film spotting. You and Sam have been gracious to work around the time zones and the schedules. And we think we'll be able to pull that off. I think I'll get pretty much the same access to movies in terms of what we need for our reviews here on the show.

1:33:47Josh Larsen:We'll have to figure that out a little bit, but in terms of most of the movies we review, that should work out. So the hope is listeners don't really notice, right? Except for maybe a few things I can share from what I'm learning, perhaps.

1:34:01Adam Kempenaar:We'll both be on college campuses, life will be grand and yes, we'll make it work. I'm excited for you. It sounds perfect. I'm a little bit jealous even though. Like I said, I'm on a college campus too, and there's no better place to be.

1:34:14Josh Larsen:So I can't, I can't wait to, yeah, every time, you know, I've done a lot of speaking for the books over the years, visiting college campuses. And every time I go, it's like, boy, it'd be nice to just be able to stay here. I don't know if, I don't know if I have the, the fortitude for a full-time faculty sort of workload, Adam, like you, but yeah, Getting a chance to get back in that environment sounds pretty incredible. Listeners, if you have any, I asked the FAB this too and have already gotten some good suggestions. If there's essential Scottish film or book or a novel that you think I should read in preparation, send that my way and I will take it on.

1:34:52Adam Kempenaar:Hey, it's Brooklyn Adams and I'm partnering with Abercrombie to tell you about the newest drop from their active brand, Your Personal Best. YPB leggings are made with buttery soft fabrics that hug you in all the right places and come in Abercrombie's viral Curve Love Fit designed to eliminate waist gap. Paired with sports bras and super soft sweatshirts, it's activewear that supports every part of my busy lifestyle and gives me my best butt ever. Heading to the new year feeling your personal best. Shop active by Abercrombie in the app, online and in stores.

1:35:22Josh Larsen:Somebody's got a threat. What do you mean somebody's got a threat? Somebody's kidnapped our son.

1:35:26Adam Kempenaar:17.5 million dollars in the old black joint backpack try me if you think i'm clean i ain't got next week here on the show before josh departs for scotland we are planning to discuss spike lee's highest to lowest and we might get into some weapons feedback like you teased following our weapons review some weapons spoiler talk we've already started getting great responses Yeah, some good stuff. Really good discussion points. Some more I'm sure will come in over the next week or so. If you've seen that film, if you've been thinking about it, if you've been thinking about our review, if you have thoughts you want to share and haven't written in yet that you want to get into the show, feedback at filmspotting.net or record a voicemail or record a video and send it to us.

1:36:17Adam Kempenaar:Feedback at filmspotting.net and we may work it into the show. If you'd like to get a glimpse at what we have planned for upcoming episodes, you can always go to filmspotting.net and click on the episodes link.

1:36:30Josh Larsen:Quick note about our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show, looking at cinemas present via its past. Right now, it's part two of their double-drebin pairing. Genevieve does such a great job with those titles. Naked Gun 2025 is what they're talking about. This time, obviously, in connection with their previous episode, 1988's The Naked Gun. New episodes of The Next Picture Show drop every Tuesday and you can find them wherever you get your podcasts. What's that one? What? That one there on your arm.

1:37:03Adam Kempenaar:Oh, it's a tattoo. I got that removed. Don't tell me. Don't tell me. Mother.

1:37:15Adam Kempenaar:What is that?

1:37:19What?

1:37:21Josh Larsen:To who, but that's the USS Indianapolis.

1:37:29Adam Kempenaar:That's from 1976 Best Picture nominee Jaws. Jaws did not win Best Picture in 1976. But what if Oscar voters had another shot at the vote? We'll never know. Because the deeply flawed film spotting poll asked you, aside from Jaws, which of the 76 best pick nominees should have won your options stanley kubrick's barry linden sydney lumet's dog day afternoon robert altman's nashville or the winner in 76 one flew over the cuckoo's nest directed by milo shvorman how did it come out josh so really packed among those that

1:38:11Josh Larsen:didn't win. I think we can say, but still maybe, maybe it's just because this poll went out before our review dog day afternoon, last place, 21 % of the vote, 22 % of the vote went to Nashville though. So very close there. 24 % of the vote went to Barry Lyndon. So one flew over the cuckoo's nest. Yes. The winner in 76 from director Milos Forman also won this poll 33%.

1:38:36Adam Kempenaar:How do you pick between these? I know last week, I think I said one flew over the cuckoo's nest. I said Cuckoo's Nest when we posted it because we had just watched it, just raved about it. And I said, well, you know, Dog Day Afternoon's coming up. But at this point, it's been a while since I've seen it. I knew it was between those two films. Well, now I don't have that cop out anymore. Right. Now I've seen Dog Day Afternoon again and I've raved about it. Where are you going? They are both in the pantheon. They are both all timers directed by great filmmakers with lead performances that are. Titanic performances from those all time great actors.

1:39:19Adam Kempenaar:I'm trying to apply. I'm trying to apply and just significant, significant films, profound films, but also entertaining films. And I'm trying, Josh, I'm trying to apply the Sam Van Halgren. There has to be stakes. That's the only way I can try to make this work. I'm trying to apply the incinerator technique. And I'm imagining the dog day afternoon is in one hand and one floor with the cuckoo's nest is in the other. And one of them has to go in the incinerator. never to be seen again. And the other one I can watch whenever I want, which one goes in the incinerator. And it feels like a Sophie's choice to me.

1:39:59Adam Kempenaar:It feels like a Sophie's choice to me. I'm going to stall. Do you, do you have a clear answer to it? You're so stalling.

1:40:05Josh Larsen:It's embarrassing. All right. I'll give you a little more time. And this may not be fair because even though we just did cuckoo's nest, there's probably still recency bias to the last thing you watched, but I do feel, and I've been, I knew this was going to come up. So I've been wrestling with this as soon as dog day ended actually, because I had such a visceral burst of energy from that movie. And I, I had that to a degree with cuckoo's nest, but it wasn't the same. Both are very political films. I think there is a immediacy to the politics of Dog Day Afternoon, which we discussed in our review, in terms of state violence, that I can't choose anything else but it right now in the moment I'm in.

1:40:53So very close.

1:40:56Josh Larsen:I think these are the two to wrestle over among the four, absolutely. But for me, it is Dog Day Afternoon.

1:41:03Adam Kempenaar:That helps a little because maybe that nudges me toward Cuckoo's Nest, but the other thing in Cuckoo's Nest favor is the sentimental attachment to it. As I said in my setup, when we discussed it.

1:41:16Josh Larsen:Well, when you say which one can you watch over and over, in some ways, Cuckoo's Nest is the easier watch. I think it has a little more, to me, a little more entertainment value and not quite as despairing of an ending.

1:41:30Adam Kempenaar:That is definitely true. But I'm even just more specifically referring to the fact that I'll always think about it as a movie that I bonded over with my college friends, my college roommates. And Dog Day doesn't have that attachment for me. So even though that really has nothing to do with the incinerator or my life moving forward, it's going to give the edge to Cuckoo's Nest now in this stupid, deeply flawed poll. Let's see what our listeners said, Josh.

1:41:57Josh Larsen:We heard from Wade McCormick. It's been a while since I've seen Cuckoo's Nest, so I'm probably underrating it. Even still, this is by far the best group of nominees in Oscar history. Each one is arguably the best film by a legendary director. They're all great, but Barry Lyndon would be on my short list of the greatest films of all time. It's certainly the most beautiful. Kubrick's masterpiece gets my vote. And yeah, I think Wade makes a good point there. We spent time on the aesthetic and filmmaking techniques of Dog Day Afternoon. But yeah, in terms of the filmmaking here, just the pure filmmaking technique, nothing does beat Barry Lyndon.

1:42:35Adam Kempenaar:Here's Tory Lightcap agreeing. The gut says Kubrick and Lyndon and all that glorious natural light in darkened interiors. The gut is hardly ever wrong.

1:42:46Josh Larsen:Ben said Barry Lyndon, even if Jaws was included. Wow. Maybe even Nashville over Jaws. Maybe I should rewatch Jaws. Maybe just for fun. Should we post this poll again with Jaws in it just to see if Jaws does win? Is there any world for you, Adam, that Jaws doesn't win if it was thrown into the poll? Forget I said it. No, it's easy for me. It's easy for me. I mean, Jaws, which, hey, we did a Sacred Cow review of Jaws, and it's deeply political. Oh, I know. We both found.

1:43:16Adam Kempenaar:I think Jaws wins it for me. Yeah. Okay. Me too. Yeah. Okay. Here's Darren. What a jaw-dropping slate of nominees. Remarkably, three of these nominees were also in the top five at the box office that year. With five perfect movies to choose from, I voted for the one that is most mystifyingly perfect, Nashville. I mean, how could something so rambling possibly be so perfect? It feels like a time capsule, but it could have been filmed last year without changing a thing.

1:43:42Josh Larsen:Mystifyingly perfect. Nicely done there, Darren. One more comment from Jonathan Anderson in Denver. Just a heads up for Denver spotters. Nashville is playing at the Mayan in September. So if you, like me, badly need to rewatch it, that'll be as good a time as any.

1:43:57Adam Kempenaar:Good plug. Thank you to everyone who voted in that deeply flawed, deeply troubling poll and who left a comment. We have another one for you. And I don't know, maybe this is easy for a lot of people. This one seems almost just as troubling to me, Josh. Our new one. You just recommended Neja 2. Our poll question then is animation related. and it's pretty straightforward. It's a classic incinerator case again. You can choose one and only one animation studio. You then have the entire filmography of Pixar. If I have my count right, and I have given in front of you, Josh, all 24 titles, you have Pixar.

1:44:42Adam Kempenaar:Actually, Pixar's list is 29. So a slight advantage, if you just go on quantity, Pixar has 29 titles. Up against Studio Ghibli's 24 titles, you can only pick one set. You were shaking your head when I said, maybe it's not tough. Does that mean it is extremely difficult or it's just a no-brainer for you? Oh, it's horrible.

1:45:07Josh Larsen:I'm not even answering it this week. Got it. Here's what I want listeners to consider. if you have a knee-jerk response and you think it is easy, which understandably might be Pixar. I get it. I mean, this is why it's tough, right? Yes. Think beyond Miyazaki is what I would tell you. Now, an argument could be made you don't have to and still go with Studio Ghibli. But think about something like, I don't know, The Red Turtle, The Secret World of Arrietty, The Tale of the Princess Kaguya, probably others that I haven't even seen yet that people love more. But there are movies from Ghibli that are as moving and imaginative and as powerful as anything Miyazaki has done that he didn't direct.

1:45:55Josh Larsen:So that's just something to keep in the back of your mind before you just click on Pixar. That being said, how do you vote against Pixar? How do you even get to a point where you're voting against Finding Nemo, Ratatouille, WALL-E? I know some of the more recent, recent stuff hasn't been as incredible, but Inside Out, it's a little while ago now, but still very, very good. After that, Coco, I think, is amazing. I mean, ah, soul. I have soul 2020. I think it's in my pot top three, possibly. Yeah. Certainly top five Pixar. So. Oh, top two of that year. You had it really high. I will get back to you.

1:46:41Josh Larsen:Are you able to answer this week? I think I am.

1:46:46Adam Kempenaar:And to your point, when I first considered the question, and even as I was pulling the lists of titles. I thought as much as I do love a lot of Ghibli films, I thought, well, yeah, I'm going, I'm going Pixar. I really did think I was, I was going Pixar. Don't overthink it, Adam. Don't, don't try to be art house, Adam. Go with, go with what brought you here. Think about the films that have meant so much to you over the years. You got into the Ghibli films later in life as you've done this show, but Pixar meant more to you earlier and just, just accept that. But, you know, Tori talked about the gut never being wrong or hardly ever wrong.

1:47:35Adam Kempenaar:Maybe I can consult Tori's gut on this question. Maybe you can too, Josh, but I, I put these titles next to each other and you can see, you can see my highlights. I put these lists next to each other. And what I tried to do was go with my gut. And I looked at the list side by side and I just said, I'm going to highlight titles as I see them that here again, I'm kind of applying the incinerator approach. I'm just thinking about, I'm not thinking about star ratings or whatever. I'm not going to look them up, what I said about them or rated them. I'm just thinking as I glance at them, I'm imagining a world where I don't get to ever watch that movie again.

1:48:18Adam Kempenaar:And it pains me. It feels, this is too strong a word, but it feels tragic that I would never get to see that movie again. And I went because it's first on my, going left to right on my screen. I started with Ghibli and going down my list, Grave of the Fireflies, Kiki's Delivery Service. Totoro, Porco Rosso, Spirited Away, The Wind Rises. I know people listening, mileage is going to vary. You're going to have, most people are going to have one or two of those titles. Some are going to have, maybe some are going to have none. You're going to have six others, ten others, three others, whatever. I had those six, okay, that would have pained me.

1:49:05Adam Kempenaar:I went over to the Pixar side. Went down the list. Finding Nemo, WALL-E, Inside Out. It was those three, and then, Josh, I suppose what I thought about was, is it just kind of the Toy Story trilogy? And does that, if I count that as a whole, does that bring me to six? You know, am I then six against six? But that really is where I'm at. And as hard as it is to think about, because I have such a soft spot for Nemo, it's a film that has meant a lot to my family. And I love it beyond that. I think it's a wonderful film, as are WALL-E and Inside Out. I think the Studio Ghibli list is too strong. I'm going Ghibli.

1:49:56Josh Larsen:Okay, I found a deep flaw, not in our poll, but in our options here. Unless I'm missing it, Miyazaki's the boy in the heron. the best film of 2023 is not on this list. Now I know you, I know you liked it. It's very good. Yeah, it's good. I thought it was good. You weren't as high on it as me, but I think, I think I am going to commit Adam. I think, I think that is my math is wrong. 25. Pushing me knows what else I'm missing, pushing me over the top because I do love that movie so much and not an easy choice, but it's Ghibli for me.

1:50:35Adam Kempenaar:Okay. We're both on the Ghibli side. We cannot wait for your votes and your feedback on this very difficult question. You can vote now at filmspotting.net. Josh, I think we're going to end on that note. That's our show.

1:50:52Josh Larsen:Look, I can see daylight. We're going to be okay.

1:50:56Adam Kempenaar:It's okay.

1:50:58Josh Larsen:I don't think that's daylight. If you want to connect with Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, or Letterboxd, YouTube as well, you can find us at FilmSpotting. I'm at Larson on Film. I think I'm on all those places. Plus, for you Blue Sky folks, you can find me there too. We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the FilmSpotting family at FilmSpottingFamily.com. You can listen early and ad-free. You'll also get a weekly newsletter, monthly bonus episodes, and access to the entire show archive. For show t-shirts and other merch, go to filmspotting.net slash shop.

1:51:38Adam Kempenaar:Out digital this weekend, Samara Weaving is a former teenage runaway who gets pulled back into her unsavory past to save her boyfriend. It's with Randall Park, Andy Garcia, and Steve Zahn. Where's Steve Zahn been? That's a Film Spotting favorite going way back. That's on Hulu. In limited release, you can see Lurker, a retail clerk, meets and becomes friendly with a rising pop star, which blurs the line between fan and friend. Our friend Robert Daniels, reporting from its Sundance premiere, said, combines the obsessive spirit of Laura and the frenetic sleaziness of Nightcrawler. I'm sold. Splitsville is out.

1:52:16Adam Kempenaar:Carrie's wife, Dakota Johnson, wants a divorce, but maybe the secret to happiness is an open marriage. with Adria Arjona from Hitman, directed by Michael Angelo Covino, who made 2019's The Climb. David Sims says, now here is an incisive, funny 2025 movie about relationships and sex starring Dakota Johnson. And if you thought that was a shot at Celine Song's materialist, I believe it has to be because I did look up on Letterboxd and David Sims gave that movie two and a half stars like I did. In wide release, Eden, a group of disillusioned outsiders, abandons modern society for a remote, uninhabited island in the Galapagos, directed by Ron Howard.

1:52:58Hmm.

1:52:59Adam Kempenaar:Ana de Armas, Jude Law, Sidney Sweeney, and Vanessa Kirby star in that one. Ethan Cohn's new one, Honey Don't, is out. Margaret Qualley is small-town PI. What a name, Honey O'Donoghue, who investigates a series of strange deaths tied to a mysterious church. That's with Aubrey Plaza, Chris Evans, and Charlie Day. Relay is out. That's new from David McKenzie, who made Hell or High Water and Startup. Riz Ahmed is a fixer who brokers payoffs between corrupt corporations and individuals who threaten to expose them. That's with Lily James as a client whose life has been threatened. And Josh recommended Neja 2.

1:53:34Adam Kempenaar:Next week, it is Spike Lee's highest to lowest, which is on the docket. That's currently in limited release. You can look for that coming to Apple TV Plus on September 4th. And we'll see if we can dive into the mailbag on the movie Weapons.

1:53:50Josh Larsen:Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dissot and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:54:10Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

1:54:30Adam Kempenaar:Film Spotting is listener supported. Join the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com and get access to ad-free episodes, monthly bonus shows, our weekly newsletter, and for the first time, all in one place, the entire Film Spotting archive going back to 2005. That's at filmspottingfamily.com.

1:55:13Josh Larsen:To learn more.

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1:56:23Josh Larsen:Okay, laundry stinks. Literally. I mean, you could just keep buying new underwear. Not that I've ever done that. Or maybe sort your clothes into piles based on how re-wearable or filthy they are. Or just use Arm & Hammer Deep Clean. It's made for real life stings and stains. So even if you don't do laundry the quote right way, Deep Clean will knock it out. I mean, it is from the number one liquid detergent brand that tackles more loads than any other. Come clean with Arm & Hammer Deep Clean. Number one claim based on total wash loads sold.