In short
Filmspotting’s “dissident cinema marathon” episode on Roberto Rossellini’s 1945 Rome, Open City, set in 1944 Nazi-occupied Rome, arguing it blends neorealism with thriller/melodrama and becomes a “blueprint” for later anti-colonial resistance cinema (especially Pontecorvo’s The Battle of Algiers).
Guests
Adam Kempinar and Josh Larson (hosts). No other guests are interviewed in the provided transcript.
Guest backgrounds
Not specified beyond their roles as Filmspotting hosts.
Key claims
The film’s “freshness” after Rome’s liberation (war still ongoing) drives its raw realism; its handheld/gritty style plus staged thriller plotting complicates a “textbook” neorealist label. Its motifs and moral questions (resistance vs terrorism; justice vs vengeance; forgiveness) anticipate later works.
Notable examples
Pina’s nightclub-drug subplot; the bomb explosion and rebel boys emerging; the central staircase camera “itchy nervousness”; the Anna Magnani truck-running execution image; Don Pietro’s torture scene and religious wrestling; the Pieta-like final pose; the torture of Ferrari/Freddy; and a Nazi commander’s remorseful “all we do is killing” speech.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroducing the Film: Rome, Open City
3:11 to 3:38
Discussion begins on Roberto Rossellini's film set in post-World War II Italy.
“What kind of a show are you guys putting on here today?”
Context of Rome, Open City
3:38 to 4:10
The significance of the film's context during the Nazi occupation is explored.
“The dissident cinema marathon is comprised of films that critically depict or fight, openly fight fascism, six movies in all.”
Comparing Artistic Approaches
4:10 to 4:54
Contrast between Chaplin's comedic style and Rossellini's serious tone in the film.
“This film, Josh, was released in 45, but set in 1944 during the Nazi occupation of Rome.”
Exploring Neorealism and Melodrama
4:54 to 6:00
Discussion on the film's neorealistic elements and melodramatic aspects.
“start by considering Rossellini's film in contrast to Chaplains, which we discussed last week, that movie Lampooned, Hitler and Nazism.”
The Film's Espionage Elements
6:00 to 7:10
How the film incorporates themes of espionage and tension within its narrative.
“I know there are roots to neorealism and go back before this, right?”
Character Analysis and Performances
7:10 to 9:10
Discussion on key characters and performances, including Ana Magnani's role.
“And I want to get to this philosophically because there is a movie version of this that could have been all about revenge.”
Cinematography and Aesthetic Influence
9:10 to 10:10
The film's visual style and its impact on future filmmakers explored.
“There were neorealist films coming out before this and movies like La Terra Tremma, I would say, to just name one that are more traditional neorealist films that has similarities to this film.”
The Impact of Rome, Open City
10:10 to 12:10
How the film influenced the genre and its reception at Cannes discussed.
“There's aspects of that that you would never see.”
Connections to Modern Cinema
12:10 to 14:02
Connecting themes of Rome, Open City to contemporary films and directors.
“I'll tell you who the quote's from and then we'll take it from there.”
Explosive Moments in Rome, Open City
14:02 to 16:46
Explore the pivotal bomb explosion scene and its significance in the film.
“And the moment where I knew, it all came full circle or all the points on the triangle connected.”
Show all 21 chapters
Camera Techniques and Daily Chaos
16:46 to 20:04
Discuss the camera work in Rome Open City and its portrayal of chaos.
“Also, I think Battle of Algiers is maybe purely the sort of thing that Anderson described in that quote.”
Spiritual and Secular Leaders in Cinema
22:30 to 24:06
Analyze the thematic connections between characters in Rome Open City and One Battle.
“You can see it in the way a fabric moves, recognize it in a flawless fit, and appreciate it in the details that make our styles unique.”
Iconic Shots and Their Impact
24:06 to 28:06
Examine the unforgettable shots in Rome Open City and their lasting influence.
“And also he has other concerns as an Italian resisting the Germans in 1945 than Pontecorvo.”
The Unforgettable Shot
28:06 to 29:15
Explore the emotional impact of a key shot in 'Rome, Open City'.
“in these past couple shows than i've said in two years but that's what it is there's something that It just is unnerving about it.”
The Role of Performance
29:15 to 31:01
Discuss the significance of actor performance in enhancing the film's impact.
“history, when oppressed by occupying forces or abusive forces of their own government, reach a point where they can't just stay still anymore.”
Life After Loss
31:01 to 33:09
Analyze how the film portrays the aftermath of a character's death.
“You, you see just the, the, the force she brings to this part without playing it too far.”
Religious Undertones in Film
33:09 to 35:05
Examine the exploration of religious themes in Rossellini's work.
“It doesn't spend any more time on the fact that now Pina is, is gone.”
Justice vs. Forgiveness
35:05 to 37:31
Delve into the film's moral complexities surrounding justice and forgiveness.
“So at some point I'd love to dig into all that, but it does bring us to that aspect I was alluding to at the beginning there about where this movie ends up, not in a place of vengeance necessarily.”
The Torture Scene's Impact
37:31 to 42:06
Reflect on the portrayal of torture and its narrative significance.
“But even if you were basing this character off a real priest, if you were less inclined towards religion, I don't think you could shoot a scene.”
Exploring Ideological Tensions in Rome, Open City
42:06 to 45:32
Discover the complex ideological dynamics depicted in the film and its historical context.
“know the nazi commander who is doing the in interrogating major bergman played by harry feist he pulls this out on don pietro and says you know these these guys you're with they're atheists They're not on your side.”
The Complexity of Nazi Portrayals in Cinema
45:32 to 47:56
Examine how the film presents Nazis with self-awareness and moral ambiguity.
“And, you know, not to dig on Casablanca, but one of my issues with Casablanca is that the Nazis are they might as well be in a Marx Brothers film.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Adam Kempenaar:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi-asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto, and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20 % year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500.
0:34Adam Kempenaar:Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA, and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.
1:02Adam Kempenaar:Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to make up that difference and close the gap between finding and owning the home for you. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. So when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it comes to making an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more focus on the one you'll call home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. Ever wonder how to make hosting look effortless?
1:38Adam Kempenaar:Here's a secret. When prepping for cooking and baking, get ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter so the paper grips. Lay it down and drips and spills stay on the paper, not on your counter. Cleanup is as simple as lifting it away to reveal clean counters. Effortless it is, thanks to Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Wet it, set it, prep it, done. Available in the Reynolds Wrap Aisle at Walmart, Target, Amazon, and Costco. You know what quality feels like. You can see it in the way a fabric moves, recognize it in a flawless fit, and appreciate it in the details that make our styles unique.
2:25Adam Kempenaar:It's the standard Coldwater Creek has honored for over 40 years, derived from a rich Mountain West heritage, and designed for today in styles that are distinctively Coldwater Creek. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit ColdwaterCreek.com, shop new arrivals, and save 15 % on purchases$75 or more with code IHART.
2:46Josh Larsen:Film Spotting is presented by Regal Unlimited, the all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. See any standard 2D movie anytime with no blackout dates or restrictions. Sign up now on the Regal app or at the link in our description and use code FILMSPOT26 to receive 15 % off.
3:11Josh Larsen:What kind of a show are you guys putting on here today? You're not interested in art? No. Now look, we're going to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation. Hey, Filmspotters, Adam and Josh here. For the second film in our dissident cinema marathon, we go from pre-World War II, Charlie Chaplin, that was the great dictator, to post-World War II, Italian, neorealism. We're going to talk about 1945's Rome, Open City from Roberto Rossellini.
4:00Adam Kempenaar:The dissident cinema marathon is comprised of films that critically depict or fight, openly fight fascism, six movies in all. You can find the full lineup at filmspotting.net slash marathons. This film, Josh, was released in 45, but set in 1944 during the Nazi occupation of Rome. Not surprisingly, context with this marathon really matters, just as we discussed with the great dictator, the time in which it was made, the time in which it was filmed. And in this case, Rome had been liberated, but the war was still going on. It was only Rome that had been liberated by the Americans. And so this was very fresh.
4:46Adam Kempenaar:In fact, that's not even really doing it justice. It's an open wound at this point for Italy. Maybe we start there, start by considering Rossellini's film in contrast to Chaplains, which we discussed last week, that movie Lampooned, Hitler and Nazism.
5:20Adam Kempenaar:this film is serious and serious verging on though melodrama at times in a way that actually contradicts its neorealism roots what did you make of rome open city yeah i think that's a fair description it was the freshness of it that shocked me in looking at that timeline you
5:44Josh Larsen:described after actually watching the film, you know, wondering while I was watching it exactly when did this come out and, and yeah, raw, the rawness of the lives it's exploring in this movie, the view of realism, those aspects of it, you feel must've been almost out of necessity more than, I know there are roots to neorealism and go back before this, right? I mean, it's considered one of the early films, but you can trace its development in earlier pictures. At the same time, just trying to put something together in the aftermath of Rome being liberated, there were restrictions. And I think you can feel that while at the same time you can see the live nerve of it that gives it its power and gives it its neorealistic qualities are largely because of the context of its filmmaking.
6:44Josh Larsen:But at the same time, as you point out, melodrama, I think is appropriate. I experienced much of this, Adam, as an espionage thriller, like a straight up spy thriller. And do those things sometimes jut up against each other a little awkwardly? Maybe we can talk about that. But I think if you take into account, again, the context of the filmmaking and its production, you can only admire what Rossellini was able to accomplish here technically. And I want to get to this philosophically because there is a movie version of this that could have been all about revenge. And I think where this film arrives and lands at is somewhere remarkable at any time and quadruply remarkable given that the movie arrives here so freshly after the suffering it depicts.
7:49Josh Larsen:So yeah, we'll come back to that maybe, but, um, but yeah, it w it was, again, this is one for the first time. This was a blind spot for me, you know, in shame, I say that. and a real reason for doing this marathon. And yeah, I knew I was getting the neorealism. I didn't know I was getting the espionage thriller, basically, was one of my main takeaways.
8:11Adam Kempenaar:I really love that take, and I know we'll get to it later, but you're right. Considering how raw those wounds are, how the war is still going on, how visceral the hatred of the Nazis was, surely had to be, For Rossellini to make such an inquisitive picture in a lot of ways, certainly spiritually, which this movie definitely is, and not just be, as you put it, a revenge film, a hate-filled movie. That is remarkable. It truly is. the neorealist aspect of this film you understand why this film is thought of that way and why it's one of these films that post-war broke out because of its performance at Cannes its reception at Cannes and it put Italian cinema this this group of films and this movement on the map but as you noted There were neorealist films coming out before this and movies like La Terra Tremma, I would say, to just name one that are more traditional neorealist films that has similarities to this film.
9:27Adam Kempenaar:But there are also stark differences where they have things in common is that this is obviously a movie that is very much about the working class. It's about the struggling class. It is depicting people in Italy just trying to get by. It's about people being oppressed. It is showing it even with this sheen of of espionage and and melodrama. And when I say melodrama, I mean, let's let's not mistake it. There's a subplot involving a woman who works at a nightclub and she's got a drug habit that's being exploited by the Nazis and by this woman who works for the Nazis. There's aspects of that that you would never see.
10:16Adam Kempenaar:There's plotting like that that you would never find in what's typically considered a neorealist. Right. Okay. So with that in mind, it doesn't check those boxes. Where it does check the boxes is, like I said, being about the everyday Italian people, the struggling and the oppressed.
10:35Josh Larsen:And also the non-professional actors portraying them. Some of the non-professional actors, certainly. Yes, absolutely.
10:41Adam Kempenaar:Of course, we have Ana Magnani, who's who's making really her debut, her breakout film role. And there are some professionals, including we have Aldo Fabrizi as Don Pietro, who I think is pretty incredible, despite the fact that he he comes to be known as much more of a comic performer, not a dramatic actor. and he's really good here in a very tragic role. But it also in its style, I'm going to talk in a moment, Josh, about how it isn't neorealist in some of its aesthetic, but obviously with the handheld camera, the grittiness of it, just the fact that what it's showing, it's shot, yes, it's shot in a lot of internal locations, in a lot of sets, which is also different than you would expect from Hollywood, for example, right?
11:35Adam Kempenaar:Neorealist is going to shoot. Neorealist films are going to shoot on location, but they're also going to shoot outside using natural light like a lot of this film is. And the bombed out buildings are the actual, of course, bombed out buildings. That's where this film is shot, and that's the struggle that it is depicting. I wanted to read this to you though, because I wonder if you had a similar reaction to a moment in this film that I did. If you made a certain connection or if you're going to tell me I'm crazy, I'm pushing this too far. But I want to read you a quick quote. I'll tell you who the quote's from and then we'll take it from there.
12:21Adam Kempenaar:As filmmaking, this is Paul Thomas Anderson. As filmmaking, it is tremendously accomplished, and its pseudo-documentary style has influenced many directors seeking to create an aura of authenticity and immediacy when depicting recent historical events. The heightened contrast ingrained in the black and white film stock and the handheld camera work are indeed supposed to suggest documentary newsreel footage. Okay, here's the point. He's talking about the Battle of Algiers. but he could be talking about Rome Open City. I think everything I just read to you applies to Rome Open City. And that's not surprising because I took those quotes from a transcript of what Paul Thomas Anderson said when he was introducing films on Turner Classic Movies.
13:13Adam Kempenaar:Remember, I referenced that during our original review of One Battle After Another, that he was a guest programmer and he programmed four films that influenced one battle. And one of them was the Battle of Algiers, which obvious it's name checked in the, in the movie too, but he programmed the Battle of Algiers. He calls it out in his, in his setup, but he also calls out in that setup. Not surprisingly, Rome open city. He talks about how Rome open city was the original influence on the Battle of Algiers. And I, unless you're going to disagree with me, everything I just read about Algiers that he's saying applies to this film.
13:56Adam Kempenaar:This film is the blueprint for what we get in the Battle of Algiers. And the moment where I knew, it all came full circle or all the points on the triangle connected. One battle, Algiers, Rome, Open City. This is one of the two exhilarating moments that underscored for me why this film is so exhilarating, but also why it doesn't fit the textbook definition of a neorealist film, is what occurs at the 36-minute mark. It's when a bomb explodes.
14:34Adam Kempenaar:And right there, no bomb is ever going to explode in a neorealist movie. But a bomb explodes, and Magnani and the other two male characters, There's a man, Manfredi and the man she's supposed to marry Francesco. They, they look out the window. They don't know what has happened. They go to the window and they look out and what did they see? And there is this wonderful shot of a fire in the distance and emerge who emerges, what emerges from that fire. But this gang of rebel boys out of the smoke, out of the fire, and they run down a path and then the cut is to them running through a little tunnel and then they run from that tunnel and they jump through an opening and it feels like you could have lifted that and if you just put it in color you could have lifted that and put it straight into one battle after another during the entire protest sequence from that skateboarders leaping across the skateboarders are those boys who detonated that German truck or whatever it was that they set off.
15:47Adam Kempenaar:When that movie, that's when Rome Open City really comes alive. When those boys who have just been little neighborhood boys, who the priest, Don Pietro, is telling them what to do and go home. When you realize that they're fighting back and when you see them run, it had to be whether it was conscious, whether PTA looked at that movie again, or whether it's just that DNA, the DNA from this movie, from Rossellini to the Battle of Algiers to PTA, it's there. It's all there.
16:20Josh Larsen:Yeah, and there's a moral through line too, especially for Rome, Open City and Battle of Algiers, exploring what counts as terrorism, what counts as resistance, what counts as murder. You know, these are all difficult questions that I think are maybe more at the forefront for Algiers than here, but definitely at play and to a degree in one battle after another. Also, I think Battle of Algiers is maybe purely the sort of thing that Anderson described in that quote. Yes. Whereas Rome Open City is intermittently that sort of thing. And whether or not you regard that as meaning it's lesser or not, you know, is probably up to each individual viewer.
17:06Josh Larsen:But I think it's a worthy distinction. A sequence, not even a sequence, because it's actually a motif that Rossellini returns to that is connected to that docudrama, gritty. It kind of is where the neorealism and the thriller elements converge. purge anytime his camera finds itself in the stairwell of the central building where Pina Mignani's character lives and is a you know location for a lot of the action so Mignani's Pina she she along with Fabrizio's priest they're they're sort of surreptitiously aiding the resistance movement you know they're not directly involved but they help out as they can and she lives in this big building, high rise, maybe eight stories or so.
17:57Josh Larsen:And it has this central staircase. And the camera there has an itchy nervousness. Two sequences come to mind. And one is directly after Adam, the moment you just talked about, the boys brigade having set this bomb. They're coming home. They've been out late, curfews in place. They should have been home. And so they're running up these stairs and as each boy hits their door on the landing and has to go home, their father opens and screams, threatens violence. It's very unnerving and yanks them in. And then we go up the next round of stairs to the next door where the next boy gets pulled in. And the camera there just, you know, turning those corners of the staircase is just so jostling and destabilizing.
18:53Josh Larsen:We get this staircase and other shots too, though, in other sequences where we're just looking up all the way up the building and seeing it, or we're looking down from the top and altogether it has this itchy nervousness, but also captures the sense of disorientation that you think must have dominated daily life. not just in that building, but everywhere for the people trying to just live their daily lives in the midst of all this chaos. And so I think that is a technique. Now you've got me thinking about sequences in one battle and where we might've seen similar camera work, but definitely here that stood out to me in Rome, Open City, a technique that again, blurs that line between neorealism, handheld, and expertly choreographed thriller filmmaking.
20:04Adam Kempenaar:year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of
20:09Josh Larsen:stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely
20:19Adam Kempenaar:customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by public investing. Brokerage services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA, and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Let's talk about modern home shopping.
20:46Adam Kempenaar:It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen, or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comforts of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own, but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it, that's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2 ,200 agents with local expertise.
21:24Adam Kempenaar:And Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com. This is Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart Podcast. Ever wonder how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret. When prepping for cooking and baking, get ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter so the paper grips, lay it down, and drips and spills stay on the paper, not on your counter.
22:10Adam Kempenaar:Cleanup is as simple as lifting it away to reveal clean counters. Effortless it is, thanks to Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Wet it, set it, prep it, done. Available in the Reynolds wrap aisle at Walmart, Target, Amazon, and Costco. You know what quality feels like. You can see it in the way a fabric moves, recognize it in a flawless fit, and appreciate it in the details that make our styles unique. It's the standard Coldwater Creek has honored for over 40 years, derived from a rich Mountain West heritage and designed for today in styles that are distinctively Coldwater Creek. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit coldwatercreek.com, shop new arrivals, and save 15 % on purchases$75 or more with code IHART.
22:59Adam Kempenaar:Now that I'm thinking about it as you went back to one battle, I don't want to push this part too far because clearly there are disconnects, but I wonder how far we could push the connection between Don Pietro and sensei, for example, just as civic leaders trying to do their part surreptitiously, right?
23:24Josh Larsen:He's kind of the secular Don Pietro in a lot of ways.
23:29Adam Kempenaar:He really is. And I just want to go back to your point before and make sure I underline this, And I think you would agree with this, but it really is for me not whether or not you fall on one side or another thinking Algiers is a better film or Rome Open City is a better film. Either way, it's not really for me a matter of lesser or more. It's just that obviously going back to context, Rossellini as a filmmaker, and this touches on the spiritual and secular aspect as a filmmaker has other concerns than Pontecorvo. And also he has other concerns as an Italian resisting the Germans in 1945 than Pontecorvo.
24:14Adam Kempenaar:Sure. Shooting in Algiers, resisting the French government in the 1960s has. So you have you have very different films, but you don't get Algiers. You don't get the battle of Algiers without Rome Open City. Right. Right. You just don't. The other shot. Right. The other shot is the shot. And I'd love to hear your your take on it. It's what I was alluding to in our in our Friday show about the the memorable shots in. In movie history, Josh, filmmakers who manage and there's no way they can know when they're when they're doing it. There's certainly no way Rossellini could have known when he's making this movie, when he's hustling to make this movie with no money, barely any film stock, pulling it together from loose ends.
25:09Adam Kempenaar:whatever he can get to get this movie made there's no way he's thinking i'm going to make a film that anyone's going to consider a masterpiece but he's certainly never thinking i'm going to i'm going to make a movie that's going to contain a shot that 60 80 100 years from now people will still be talking about and it's the shot that everybody associates with this film that even if you had never seen this film, you knew the Anna Magnani image of her. If it was a still photo, it was probably at a little bit of a distance and her running after the truck of Francesco being taken away. Or if it was a moving image, right?
25:48Adam Kempenaar:It was that moving image of her at a distance as the truck is taking him away and her arms outstretched and she's yelling. It has just captured, it has somehow captured our imagination forever. I've seen it in montage after montage, not about films like this, just about cinema. It, it comes up over and over again. And, and that shot, I, I guess I was trying to understand what is it about it? Cause even on, I watched this on the criterion channel and right next to it, Spike Lee, there's just a two minute video, I think where Spike Lee is talking to a scholar and he's talking about the influence this film had on him when he watched it for the first time at NYU as a film student, him and Ernest Dickerson both, and how they saw themselves similarly when he's making his early films to Rossellini and his cinematographer, just hustling, trying to get whatever film they could, getting scraps, trying to get a film made with no money.
Read the full transcript
26:46Adam Kempenaar:And he talks specifically about that image and he doesn't dissect it, but he just talks about how much it moved him or how much he felt it. And so I was watching it again today and the camera starts still. It's on a tripod. It starts still as she's running out of the frame. She's, she's peeling herself away from Don Pietro. And then the next shot is the camera is clearly handheld. It's on the truck that Francesco is on and it's pulling away while she's running forward towards it. And then we cut to a profile shot of her running. We're now on the side and it's, it's still again, the cameras is steady as she's running past us.
27:38Adam Kempenaar:And then there are two shots in between and we go back to the shot from the truck as she gets the handheld shaky shot with the camera pulling away as she's running and her magnani getting gunned down and it's just something about the combination the cutting between the stillness and the movement and the urgency of it the handheld the urgency the visceral quality i feel like i've said visceral more times in these past couple shows than i've said in two years but that's what it is there's something that It just is unnerving about it. And that handheld shot, but then pulling away from her to the fact that the truck is we we feel as viewers because it's the camera.
28:22We feel us pulling away, but she's also getting closer, but not really.
28:28Adam Kempenaar:Right. So there's a desperation that she's also expressing with her arms as she's reaching out. We know that this is futile and that's expressed in the fact that the camera's moving away and she's not really getting closer to it. What is it about? I mean, I'm trying my best to explain it, but what is it about that shot that Rossellini pulls off and makes it so unforgettable?
28:56Josh Larsen:For me, it's the helplessness. And so I'll say two things about this. And the first is it's connected. I would argue it's connected to why we're doing this marathon. He captures in the rawness, the docudrama sensibility and the helplessness, a reality that people throughout history, when oppressed by occupying forces or abusive forces of their own government, reach a point where they can't just stay still anymore. And yet they can't do anything about it because to do something will cost their lives. And so we're seeing a historical recreation of that happening in Germany, occupied Nazi occupied Rome.
29:42Josh Larsen:We're seeing mobile phone footage of that happening in the United States, not by an occupying force, but by unarmed citizens being killed by government agents when it comes to ICE protests and the like. That's happening now. and the exact sort of helplessness that we see in that footage shared from mobile phone people with their phones is the helplessness that Rossellini captures in this sequence. So it's in the technique you've described, and it's also in the unfortunate universality of this being a recurring human experience. I think that's why it lasts. That's the one thing. The second thing I would say connects back to our discussion of neorealism and the non-professional performers in the background, actors who are very effective, the use of them.
30:38Josh Larsen:I think a key to Rome Open City is that Magnani and Fabrizzi both had extensive acting experience before coming to this part. And so Magnani in particular, and, uh, what was the, what was the Brando film we talked about that she was in, uh, you know, a decade or more kind of kind.
30:58Adam Kempenaar:Thank you.
30:59Josh Larsen:And she like went toe to toe to Brando. Right. Of course. Of course. And you see it here. You, you see just the, the, the force she brings to this part without playing it too far. or she's really not any different than any of the other women in that building, except that she's, when pushed, she had to a point, she's going to push back maybe more than they would. So I say that in connection with this scene is that we already know from what we've seen of, of, uh, Pina that she's just not going to be able to take it anymore. And that's what happens. And so So I think it is also a performance element that lends to the sequences power you're talking about.
31:47Now, the specific moment she is just running, right?
31:52Josh Larsen:She's a figure, but go back, you know, 30 seconds to before that, when she's with the crowd and being held back and the, the Nazi trooper, she's looking at her. Doesn't he say something to her about her eyes?
32:07Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Yeah.
32:08Josh Larsen:He says, you have pretty eyes, and those eyes flash. And you kind of know when they flash, she's not going to survive because she's just hit that breaking point, even though we know she's also helpless in this situation. So there's just so many factors that go into those images sticking with us. Some of them are historical, and some of them are very, very topical.
32:36Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, it is. I mean, it's everything you said. You express that so eloquently and, and it is, it's not just the technique that makes it feel like it's a newsreel, but what makes it last is that it gives it a timelessness. we feel almost when we watch it now, like it really happened. We feel when we watch it, like we're watching history and it's cemented in our minds that way. It has. That's it. That's it. Yeah. And, and I appreciate for a film that does have some of those melodramatic plot elements that we mentioned, not melodrama in a Douglas Cirque way, but some of those plot elements, I appreciated the degree to which we don't then dwell on her death that in this environment, like life just has to move on.
33:32Adam Kempenaar:The movie moves on. It doesn't spend any more time on the fact that now Pina is, is gone. And how are, how is everyone going to pick up the pieces? They simply have to pick up the pieces. I thought that was an interesting, I'm not surprised based on the film and the material, but I thought that was interesting that, that everyone does just move on.
33:51Josh Larsen:And that's true, but it does still register the loss in her son, Marcello. What a performance by that kid, Vito, and I'm sure Anichirico, he's just great. And we see him now without his mother and the scenes with him and Francesco being reunited, Francesco. Grand Jaquette plays that part. So yeah, you're right that she does disappear. Everyone has to keep going, but it's not like the movie completely forgets her either. It's very nuanced about that. You can't.
34:20Adam Kempenaar:And how about that final shot of her, Don Pietro holding her body? It's too intentional. The positioning of her body and the way he's holding her and the way it's shot is too intentional. And having been to St. Peter's not that long ago on a trip to Italy, it's the Pieta. It's the exact same position that now, you know, roles reversed, if you will, a little bit, but he's, he's holding her in that exact same way. And that's some of that imagery that he is constantly evoking. And one of the things, one, one thing I saw somewhere is that Rossellini was someone who said his entire life, he said, non-believer, non-believer, non-believer.
35:05Adam Kempenaar:And yet so many of his films, including this one deal with explore investigate religion and do it in a way that would seem to show more than just curiosity would would almost seem to betray the mind of someone who seems to believe more than he may actually let on yeah it's fascinating i haven't
35:32Josh Larsen:seen these movies but just reviewing his filmography like towards the end of his career he made a biography of the life of Christ. He did biopics about various saints. Yes. Yeah. So at some point I'd love to dig into all that, but it does bring us to that aspect I was alluding to at the beginning there about where this movie ends up, not in a place of vengeance necessarily. And it's very much connected to Fabrizio's performance as Don Pietro. So, you know, I think for all the, there's a sturdiness to its moral vision amidst all of the intentional chaos of its filmmaking and what's happening. And, you know, this movie does emphasize, and I want to be clear about this, it emphasizes justice and the need for justice.
36:23Josh Larsen:And there's a lot of talk about that and holding people accountable for crimes they've committed. This is not a movie that calls for easy forgiveness in any sense, but it does pretty much land with, we need to get to forgiveness or we're lost. And I think it does that honorably and with the eye towards justice, because this is something that even Don Pietro struggles with. There's the crucial scene where he's being forced to witness the torture of the figure, the character in Resistance, who's been in hiding and he's been trying to protect. He's forced to witness this and he yells out at the end of it when Ferrari dies, curse you all.
37:11Josh Larsen:And then a second later, Lord, what have I said? He apologizes to God.
37:17Adam Kempenaar:Yeah.
37:17Josh Larsen:That's the struggle that I think this movie is trying to reconcile with is justice, the vengeance, the forgiveness. How do we, how do we handle all of those? And I do think even in that excruciating climactic moment that Don Pietro is is holding trying to hold to forgiveness is the only path toward healing while recognizing justice does still need to come first. Yeah.
37:46Adam Kempenaar:And if you were a filmmaker who was more inclined to not imbue religion with any kind of power, even if you were sympathetic to characters like Don Pietro and a lot of these people in this movie are based on real characters who were resistors. Maybe he was. But even if you were basing this character off a real priest, if you were less inclined towards religion, I don't think you could shoot a scene. And ultimately, it's not important to me, Josh, whether or not Rossellini believes in God or not. My larger point is about the movie itself and that scene and the way the way he shoots, the way he gives reverence to that moment.
38:31He not only shows Don Pietro responding to the torture and and cursing God and then wrestling with himself.
38:44Adam Kempenaar:But when he when he does curse the Nazis, what do the Nazis do? They recoil. It's almost like Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark when the when the Ark opens like they stand back like they are actually scared by the power that he is invoking. And if if as a priest, he didn't have any power or these were just empty words, a filmmaker could depict that in a very different way, in a way that was a lot more hollow. That surprised me.
39:16Josh Larsen:I think that's true. And I think it also speaks to the nuancing of the role of religion in times like this, where I think the Nazis recoil because many would claim they were doing the work of God. And we're seeing religion used for horrible purposes today as well, political purposes, the same religion. And then you have figures who are representing that religion, offering a different vision, let's say, as Don Pietro does. And sometimes when that one vision is put forward to people holding another, they're exposed. And I think that's what Don Pietro is doing is even though he's wrestling things on his own and doesn't mean to do it, his exclamation exposes them.
40:06Adam Kempenaar:A scene that you'd have to analyze in conjunction with that is after the night after Pina has been murdered and Manfredi tucked the son into bed. He's finally fallen asleep. The time that Rossellini gives to Manfredi, he's in bed. The kid is in bed. Manfredi has now turned away. He's about to leave the room to go out and talk to Francesco. But what does he do first? He turns and the lighting here, this here again, totally not neorealist because the lighting is very intentional and very dramatic and very gorgeous. Dark, the shadows, but they're they're pointed right at Christ on the cross above a dresser.
40:54Adam Kempenaar:And he turns to walk away, except he gets stopped in his tracks. The camera is showing the back of Manfredi as we see him looking at pausing, looking at Christ on the cross. And the movie doesn't tell us what Manfredi is thinking. We have to for ourselves consider, is he thinking perhaps where where is Jesus now as we're all suffering as this child is is suffering and now doesn't have a mother? or is this a moment and or is this a moment where he's thinking the person we learn later, if we trust what Don Pietro is saying in that moment, this character Manfredi supposedly doesn't believe in God at all.
41:42Adam Kempenaar:Is this a point where I think you were getting at Josh, is this a point where as he turns and sees that cross, is he actually stopped in his tracks by the image and is he tempted for a second to look to it for comfort and then he has to he has to turn
41:59Josh Larsen:and leave the room yeah there there are complications there too because as you said and i think the you know the nazi commander who is doing the in interrogating major bergman played by harry feist he pulls this out on don pietro and says you know these these guys you're with they're atheists They're not on your side. They're communists. And this was all part of the dynamic at play with the various factions in Italy at the time, right? The partisans who had certain ideological standings and positions which were opposed to the church. Within the church itself, there were different ideological positions.
42:39Josh Larsen:Then you had the Nazis. I mean, for the movie to encompass a lot of those perspectives within, again, going back to this essential spy thriller plot, is really an incredible work of dexterity.
42:55Adam Kempenaar:I also, just in closing here, I appreciate, even though it was hard to watch, I appreciate the level to which we see the torture of Manfred.
43:03Josh Larsen:Oh gosh, it is really rough. It's tough to watch, but it has to be.
43:08Adam Kempenaar:If this movie is going to be unflinching, we have to see that it can't just be something. I think that we're using our imagination. We're hearing some screams from the room. We're watching it on Don Pietro's face. I know that that often can be a very compelling technique. The old horror movie adage about using our imagination and it can be worse. I think in this case for, for a film that is trading in neorealism that needed some realism and we got it.
43:34Josh Larsen:Yeah, it's for a movie this age. I was shocked at how graphic that actually was. And I did wonder, and I haven't wrapped my mind around this yet, but there is so much emphasis placed on this character being tortured. Ferrari and Freddy goes by both names, played by Marcello Pagliaro, not saying anything, not spilling anything. And I almost wonder if it's sort of romanticizing standing up to torture as if that's an ideal you should have to meet. It definitely does. Yeah, it does. Right. And part of me is like, well, does that mean any person who suffered that and actually spilled something is any less?
44:18Josh Larsen:I mean, I don't know. It's just one element of the movie. I'm, I, it almost held it up as this, as this spiritual ideal when, you know, a lot of the Christianity, the movie seems to be learning on is like, it is, is more about where you fail. There's someone else who will pick you up from that point. Sure. That, you know, that, that's like, that, that's the Jesus that the movie is, is, you know, in a lot of ways presenting. presenting and then you have this character who is it's all about if he can just hold out under the torture and accomplish you'll never break him you'll never never break right then he'll have
44:58Adam Kempenaar:reached i don't know no that's there and there's also there's also a little bit of that outdated today hopefully that outdated religious approach of what does he say to maniani don pietro about nobody ever questions whether or not we deserve to suffer yeah i wasn't i wasn't quite with don
45:18Josh Larsen:pietro's theology there no i have no yes yeah i think you have to you have to question that my
45:23Adam Kempenaar:last thing because this has been a love fest and deservedly so but the the moment too that i think you really have to wonder about where rossellini was was going with this whether or not it matches It speaks to the intentions that you're articulating about the impulse to forgive in a way, the impulse to to at least lighten the the idea of revenge anyway, to portray to portray these Nazis as evil and terrible as we see with Major Bergman, that he's completely capable of this kind of torture. And, you know, not to dig on Casablanca, but one of my issues with Casablanca is that the Nazis are they might as well be in a Marx Brothers film.
46:07Adam Kempenaar:They're so incompetent. And here we actually have Nazis who are scary, as they should be. But he also he has a Nazi in this film articulating that maybe we aren't the master race. And all we do is commit violence. and having a Nazi be self-aware in this movie is an odd choice.
46:30Josh Larsen:That came a little out of nowhere. I mean, how disturbing is this? Right next to the torture room, you open another door and they have a faux nightclub where they hang out. They're partying. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And Hartman, this is the German captain played by Joop van Holzen, all we're really good at is killing, killing, killing. Yes. And he's talking about - He's remorseful about it. And he's talking about Germans there, not necessarily Nazis. And I felt like that was a bit like, if you want to say this movie is trying to get digs in, understandably, at the time of it being made, that felt like a very on the nose dig.
47:11Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, it did. And isn't he then, isn't Hartman the one at the end that has to step in? It's him. it's him who the the the dramatic irony it's him who steps in at the end and takes the shot i didn't catch that it's hartman
47:36Adam Kempenaar:yeah it's hartman who when the italians won't the firing squad won't carry out the order he he now sober in the light of day doesn't seem to have any problem that kind of it's him
47:48Josh Larsen:That kind of reclaims the earlier scene for me.
47:52Adam Kempenaar:It might. Yeah. Wow. I missed that. Yeah, it is. It is him. Well, Rome Open City is currently available on the Criterion Channel and HBO Max and VOD next week, post-World War II, Japan for Akira Kurosawa's No Regrets for Our Youth. That's also available on the Criterion Channel. we remind you that you can check out the full lineup over at filmspotting.net. Just click on marathons right at the top of the page for film spotting. I'm Adam Kempinar. And I'm Josh Larson. Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.
48:38Adam Kempenaar:In football, you've got guys from everywhere, different backgrounds, different beliefs, all of it. You don't agree on everything, but you got each other's backs. That's how it works. And right now, off the field, hate's going up everywhere. Different communities, different ways. And Jewish communities are getting hit hard. That's not how a team operates. The blue square is just one way of showing you've got people's backs. Go to bluesquarealliance.org, grab one, share it, be a good teammate.
49:09Josh Larsen:This is Sophia Donner from OK Storytime. This summer, find your next obsession on Prime Video. And listen, we're not saying you need another obsession,
49:17Adam Kempenaar:but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories, and the book to screen favorites
49:23Josh Larsen:you've already read twice, so why not watch them a third time? Off Campus, Elle, The Love Hypothesis, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen, and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got binge-worthy series, can't miss movies, perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems,
49:41Adam Kempenaar:or procrastinating, as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. This is Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart Podcast. Ever wonder how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret. Getting ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter beforehand so the paper grips and stays in place. Then lay down the Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper so drips and spills stay on the paper. not all over your kitchen counter. You can roll out dough, prep a party spread, or cook alongside family. When you're done, cleanup is as simple as lifting the paper and revealing that clean counter underneath.
50:25Adam Kempenaar:Effortless. You can use it for cooking and baking prep and even crafting, especially when you need extra working space. Because when the mess is already handled, you can focus on what matters, the food, the people, and the moment. It may look effortless, but now you know it's Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Take a tip from me, wet it, set it, prep it, done. Make it easy. Make it with Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Available now in the Reynolds Wrap Aisle in Walmart, Target, Amazon, and Costco. Hear that? That's the sound of your skin silently crying out for hydration. Luckily, Dr.
51:07Adam Kempenaar:Teal's has just the thing to get you glowing in no time. Meet Dr. Teal's Skin Renewal Deep Hydration, made with a proprietary triple magnesium complex, plus skincare actives for 50 % improved skin hydration after just one bath. The words dry and dehydrated are about to be wiped from your vocabulary. Find Dr. Teal's, all dressed in blue, in your local bath aisle, Dr. Teal's. Yep, you needed that.
From the publisher
Adam and Josh continue Filmspotting’s Dissident Cinema Marathon with its second entry, Roberto Rossellini’s Rome, Open City. Made in the immediate aftermath of Nazi occupation and against the backdrop of a country still in crisis, the film merges neorealist observation with the tension and structure of a spy thriller. The conversation explores how the movie captures resistance not as myth but as lived experience, examining its radical immediacy and why the film stands as a blueprint for what revolutionary cinema could become.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
