Superman Review, Top 5 Superman Movie Moments

18:45Adam Kempenaar:I mean, come on, persons of color, Russian killed.

18:48Josh Larsen:And then there's going to be a joke to the, it's not just that it's in there. It's that it's there for a comic punchline.

18:55Adam Kempenaar:It sort of feels that way, but then he's going to want a payoff, an emotional payoff late in the film when there's going to be a reference to him. And it feels totally unearned. And actually, again, I'll say maybe a little bit sadistic there and everything about the sequence that follows that where I think we can say without getting too heavily into any kind of spoilers, everything that follows in that world, which is truly its own universe, this proto universe, Josh, where you're using not just that person of color as a prop, but you're using this this baby alien as a prop. Seriously, it's a baby.

19:36Adam Kempenaar:And the movie wants you to regard it as a baby and use it and think of it as something that you're trying to protect as precious. And everything about it still feels at the same time like a cartoon. And so for me, it's not so much like it's a moral or ethical thing. It's more that it makes it so tonally and just dramatically kind of disconnected. Yeah, inconsistent. That's the, yeah, that's the lack of consistency or the thing that I couldn't reconcile. And if I'm constantly trying to reconcile that throughout the film, then I'm having a tough time getting on board with the film dramatically and narratively.

20:16Adam Kempenaar:I'm constantly just at conflict with myself and the movie.

20:20Josh Larsen:I completely agree with you on all those points. And again, defenders of the movie might be saying, come on, these are throwaway scenes. And in a sense they are, but they're building a framework that again is antithetical to the framework of kindness that this movie is supposedly about. And I'm just going to add some more that are even more throwaways, but the joke about in the Fortress of Solitude, Superman has these robot assistants who we meet in a number of scenes and come to have some care for as characters. There's a throwaway, I think it's meant to be funny, after the Fortress of Solitude has been, I'll go around spoilers, but basically invaded.

21:00Josh Larsen:And there's a shot of one of these robots repeatedly stabbing itself in the head. And maybe that's not meant to be funny. Maybe I'm misreading it. The point is, I should not be confused. I should not in that moment know, am I supposed to feel bad for, I think number four it is because there's a conversation about how they want names even. Like, am I supposed to feel bad here? Am I supposed to be laughing? Is this slapstick? And I don't know because I don't know. I rarely know what is sincere in a movie by James Gunn. And I don't want to accuse, you know, when I wrote about this, I made some reference about, I wonder how he feels about pets.

21:40Josh Larsen:I wish I hadn't written that. It was facetious. It's a parenthetical aside. I don't really think that this is someone who doesn't care about animals. And sure enough, reading some, I think it was the New York Times, an interesting piece about crypto, the CGI dog, and it's based on guns, you know, own rescue dog. So I'm not meaning to be personal on that, but it's the inconsistency in tone that does make you wonder just based on what you're seeing on the screen. Let's stick with crypto and I'll give you another example. In this black site prison world where we spend way too much time, crypto has been kidnapped and Lex Luthor has forced him to run on a treadmill.

22:23Josh Larsen:Okay. Yeah. Chasing imaginary squirrels. This is it, Adam. This is it. Okay. If you want to use crypto as, you know, to move our emotions and to say, no, not crypto. Look what Lex Luthor is making him do. This is awful. This is cruel. It's not nice to do this to animals. Why does Gunn also include the punchline of the squirrel gag? It's separated. We see crypto first, and then it's like a visual punchline that he's chasing squirrels. These like a screen projection of squirrels. The squirrels and dogs joke is like, you know, from up and everywhere else is so common. And so this is a comic beat.

23:05Josh Larsen:And so why are we including both? I don't know that like you, I'm trying to make a moral equation with either choice, but why are we trying to do both? Why are we trying to rend our heart over crypto's predicament and then make us laugh at what's happening to him at the same time? To me, I can't reconcile those. And just one more thing, because I want to go back to this idea that this is all supposed to stand apart from Superman. He is the beacon of kindness. Of course, this world around him is going to be awful. There's even some hypocritical elements here because that sequence you were referencing where he's battling this ginormous kaiju and is trying to save the squirrel, I think, there.

23:46Josh Larsen:Also trying to save a dog. There's another animal from being squashed by this kaiju's foot. The whole point of that sequence is that he's arguing with the justice gang about how he doesn't want to harm this kaiju. He wants to, to capture it, like study it or something, study it and we'll bring it to like a zoo somewhere. And he keeps reprimanding them for being too violent against this kaiju. I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes later, there's a scene of Superman and Lois having a conversation in a high rise building. you can see outside the window and behind them, the justice gang is in a battle with like a giant space squid, right?

24:26Josh Larsen:And they're hammering the thing. They're lasering the thing, whatever they do. They're screaming at it. Hawkgirl does a lot of screaming. They're screaming at this space squid. And I don't know what happened to Superman's concern because Lois points it out and he's just like, they got this. It's a joke. It's a gag. The Superman we're supposed to be rooting for just gave a speech about caring for these interstellar creatures. Again, this is a minor thing. It's a throwaway scene. But you add all of these on top of each other, Adam, and I kept sinking lower and lower in my seat.

24:57Adam Kempenaar:Now, let me push back just slightly on one aspect of this with regard to the meanness. And that is the Lex Luthor that we get here is obviously very clearly intended to be antithetical to the Superman that we get. And we've already painted the picture of this Superman, the guy who says golly and saves the squirrels, and for the most part seems to be interested in just wanting to preserve life and cares about every living creature, creature, including I'll throw one other little touch. I like in here that I feel like is a deliberate or intentional moment in the screenplay. Remember when he goes to the fortress of solitude after he's been beaten in that opening sequence and the robot, I think it's number four again, does something to help him.

25:56Adam Kempenaar:And he says, thank you. And the robot says, there's no need to thank me, you know, I, I can't feel gratitude or, or feel whatever emotion he should feel in that moment. And I think that that Superman probably knows that about the robot, but he can't help but thank him anyway. Right. That's, that's this Superman. That's, that's what he's made of this Luther. And this is ultimately something I like about the movie, I think is a strength about the movie. And I, I alluded to this earlier. this Lex Luthor is someone who is defined by his meanness in contrast to the kindness of Superman so you mentioned the joke potentially of chasing the squirrel I see that a little bit more I see it less as a joke and I see it more about Lex Luthor being someone who it's not a matter for him of just wanting to sort of physically hurt the dog, Crypto, or do anything else to him.

27:01Adam Kempenaar:He wants to traumatize that dog. He wants to hurt and traumatize everybody who is an enemy of him. And I guess I appreciate that the movie gave us a Luther who is distinct in that way from others. Look, I love Gene Hackman, of course, right? But if you're going to find new spins on these characters in the mythology, that was a Gene Hackman who was in his own way an evil genius. And he was someone who certainly caused trouble and almost destroyed parts of the world. I'm not saying he didn't. But compared to this Lex Luthor, I mean, he seems like a saint. This Luther is someone who comes very close to doing the unthinkable and actually destroying Superman at multiple points in this film, and he relishes every moment of it.

28:04Adam Kempenaar:He has no qualms whatsoever about hurting anybody who gets in his way, and you don't ever really feel that about someone like Hackman's Luther.

28:14Josh Larsen:Yeah, this is a sadistic villain. Absolutely understand that. I think, again, the crypto scene on the treadmill, I think, is trying to have it both ways. Emphasize that is definitely a part of it, but also getting us to laugh at the squirrels. I don't mean to say that the movie is on the side of this Lex Luthor or even has the spirit of this Lex Luthor. No, but I mean, I know that might be what it sounds like. It's clearly able to make a distinction there. But you know what, Adam? There's a key scene here that I think muddies the waters, even on this point. And this is when Lois Lane has teamed up with one of the Justice gang, Mr.

28:58Josh Larsen:Terrific, who I think is quite good, Eddie Gathegi, playing a character I was unfamiliar with, Mr. Terrific. Great character. He's a standout, for sure. A standout, for sure. I think Brosnahan is really good as Lois Lane as well. I wish she and Corn Sweat had more scenes together. Maybe we'll set that aside and come back to it. But for this scene with Lois and Mr. Terrific, they're basically facing off against a squadron of mercenaries. Okay. So they're outnumbered. It's tense. Mr. Terrific is able to create these T-spheres, they're called. So he essentially builds this bubble around Lois where she's protected.

29:35Josh Larsen:And then he goes on the attack, unleashing other T-spheres or projectiles, things that start taking out all these mercenaries. and the scientists who are working alongside the mercenaries. This is a sequence everybody seems to love, by the way. Of course. Because Gunn is amping up the filmmaking. The camera stays in the sphere with Lois, and it's one of these single takes, which is swerving, following the action as she looks. And I would say it's impressive, except that he also pulls out this trick about 15 times in the movie, sometimes even in conversation scenes. and at what point does a Bravura single take no longer become Bravura if you're using it this often?

30:20Josh Larsen:Put that aside. To the point here, the experience we have, the experience that Lois has is she's in her own movie. It's like she's watching her own IMAX movie and it is putting a safety lens against the violence that is happening. The bubble pops and all she can say is like, wow, or something like we're expected to. Oh, let me add, Gunn also loves putting in pop songs. So we get this five years time playing from Noah and the Whale. I'm not going to try to sing it to you, but it's very exciting, very poppy, adds to the excitement of this moment. And all I can look at is this field of bodies in front of us.

31:01Josh Larsen:Again, I understand it's a superhero movie. It's not real. I understand that people die in them. To me, it is the attitude about the dying. This is where things get fuzzy. This is not Lex Luthor. This is one of the heroes. We have already been told about how much Superman values life. I'm not saying Mr. Terrific can't kill people. What I'm saying is - They don't feel the same. They've made that clear. Why does it have to be presented as the entertaining high point of the film? That is the disconnect. And why does she seem to love it? Why does she find it entertaining? Because we're supposed to, and we're in the bubble with her.

31:41Josh Larsen:I think that may have been the moment where I, where I was pretty much completely out. I'm with you.

31:46Adam Kempenaar:I, I had a similar reaction to it where I loved the song. You know, I understood why many people might find this exhilarating. And yet I was conflicted the entire time I was watching it. And I kind of just wanted to get back to Superman. I to the narrative. I wanted to get back to that character the entire time. And as good as Brosnahan is, she's clearly a really talented actress. I wanted more scenes. I'm not saying I wanted scenes exactly like the one in the apartment, but I wanted more scenes where I actually got a sense of her character and her agency. And that may seem like a weird word to use because she drives so much of the action in the second half of the film.

32:27Adam Kempenaar:But there again, Josh, I didn't, I didn't buy a lot of it. There is so much made about entering this proto universe, which is, we're told incredibly dangerous. And the fact that she just walks into this universe, right? I know that this here is one of those things you may just have to suspend disbelief on. It's not, it's not something I'm bringing up because she's a woman. It's something I'm bringing up because she's a human being. She's not a superhero. And the fact that the movie needs her to enter that space. And then when you really think about it, she does not actually do much of anything in the second half of this film.

33:13Adam Kempenaar:Even after she, she goes into that universe, she's actually not very involved because she can't be. And as all the action is occurring, she's kind of flying around and doing some journalistic things but she's not really involved in the action i feel like she's a pretty hollow character as well not as hollow as the other members or the other employees of the daily planet but more hollow than i would have liked and that brings me as well josh to something about corn sweat superman that i also struggle with even though I did overall really like his performance. And there were aspects of his Superman that we've spoken to that I think really work and that challenge, if you will, the conventional mythology of Superman in interesting ways.

34:06Adam Kempenaar:He's a little slow, right? And I think I'm okay with that. But here's the part I couldn't really forgive. In that interview scene, the thing she keeps hammering him on is that, and the thing the world and that Lex is trying to use against him, the thing the world is questioning is he's in a bunch of trouble because he stopped a war. He's stopped another country, a very, you know, here again, real world parallels, right? Like Russia invading Ukraine, these two fictional countries, one just deciding it's going to invade. and his answer, because again, he's all about saving human life, the sanctity of human life.

34:50Adam Kempenaar:His only answer is really, but people were going to die. So I had no choice. People were going to die. I had to step in and stop it. That's, that's who I am. That's what I do. But the notion that this guy who also is a reporter for the daily planet has never thought about, seems to have never thought about what is Superman's place in the world. I'm not saying like Man of Steel or some of these other films, we needed to have trials. We needed to put him on trial and have these lengthy discussions about what Superman's political motivations should be or what's right and wrong along those lines. But the fact that it seems as if, Josh, he's never thought about whether or not it really is okay that he gets involved in these affairs, That he doesn't have conversations with our political leaders before he goes and does these kinds of things.

35:46Adam Kempenaar:It does seem like a bit of a screenplay miss to me.

35:52Josh Larsen:I get it. To me, it's embedded in the conception of the character, which is a nicer way to put it is maybe naive or maybe impulsive in his niceness above all that, maybe, possibly. So, yeah, I think you're right to point it out. but it didn't bother me quite as much. I did want to go back once more, just quickly, as you were describing Lois stuck in this. I don't think I wrote this down. Were you saying a proto world, this in between universe? Isn't that what it's called? Something like that. Yeah. Sounds, sounds, we may be in trouble getting that wrong, but this dark world, the reason it doesn't resonate, like what is going to happen to her here?

36:30Josh Larsen:Why it doesn't matter is because nothing matters because this is another CGI goop world. Oh, that's the thing. It is. It is a hot mess. And I don't want to keep piling on this movie, but I also, you know, I had other problems than the mean streak. And one is that this thing looks pretty bad. I thought, um, we'll get to our Superman moments, but I had a chance obviously to watch many scenes from 1978 Superman, which looks so much better in terms of special effects, different tools, of course. But then what we get here, there is that entire sequence in that world is you don't know what is up or down or what happens if someone falls off this or if they, there's like a goop river

37:16Adam Kempenaar:that, you know, maybe that's bad to fall in river, which is why I've been getting it wrong. It's called a pocket universe.

37:24Josh Larsen:Pocket universe that has a proton river that leads to a black hole that we all know none of it exists because it doesn't look like it does for a second.

37:34Adam Kempenaar:No stakes at all to any of it because none of it matters. None of it feels remotely real. And you don't know what's going on anyway.

37:40Josh Larsen:And this happens later too when a rift, I mean, we'll leave it. Yeah. But the climactic sequence, let's just say visually, is just as junky. Yeah. And you know what? Here's a point, Adam, where I sat up in my seat because I thought, oh, there's a climactic battle where we're punching and bludgeoning and flying and not all that different from the Snyder stuff, quite frankly. And then Superman and the person he's fighting land in a baseball field. And I saw that turf moved. Like actual, it might have been grass or turf. If it was something that either, you know, was really well done with CGI or they actually were on physical material.

38:24Josh Larsen:And I shot to attention because I thought, oh, this is going to be good. I can actually tell where they are, what's around them and how it affects the fight. And, you know, they don't stay there too long. Obviously, they had they head back into the dark closet.

38:40Adam Kempenaar:there is also the fact that i was praising how i loved that and i like holt's performance i love how they made lex so ruthless so repugnant so evil and then they make a choice at the end or holt makes a choice at the end with that character that seems so out of sync with the diabolicalness of that character that attempts to give that character some humanity. And I think Josh, you and anyone who has seen the movie and has seen the end of the film should know what I'm referring to. And I, I kind of wanted to laugh watching it quite frankly.

39:23Josh Larsen:Yeah, it was, I had a rough time with his characterization, you know, even though I agree the interpretation is as this sadistic guy, but I don't think he got a lot of development beyond that until we're dumped with his villain speech or a villain speech, I should say, gets dumped on us before that. I think Holt was doing a lot of sweating, trying to make, trying to make this work.

39:49Adam Kempenaar:Well, the emails are going to come in plenty. You have no idea, Adam. You have no idea. Superman is out in wide release. if you see it. And how about we just say, if you agree with us, email us feedback at filmspotting.net. You know what? Our listeners are like Superman.

40:09Josh Larsen:If they disagree with us, they will be kind and they will not want to destroy us and rip our spines out. They'll just have thoughtful, intelligent, kind responses.

40:20Adam Kempenaar:I'm sure of it. This conversation might be the one that puts them over the top. This turns them into Lex Luthor. Again, feedback at filmspotting.net.

40:30Josh Larsen:Listening is the number one thing you can do to support an independently produced show like Film Spotting. A couple more things you can do. How about taking a minute to give us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify? You can do this if you're a new listener or if you've been listening for 20 years. Every new review does help us reach new listeners. Another way to support us, join the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com. We want to thank family member Luca Dukic here in Chicago. I just followed Luca on Letterboxd today. Had a chance to meet him once in Chicago as well. Great guy.

41:04Josh Larsen:If you want to follow Luca on Letterboxd, here's his handle. I'm going to spell it out for you. D-E-B-E-L-I-C-E-V-A-P.

41:13Adam Kempenaar:So here's Luca. And I do just want to point out, I've been a little behind this week, Josh. I did not pick this. Well, I never pick them. Sam does, but I haven't even read this until now. And Luke has got some very nice things to say. I was a very early listener of film spotting back in 2008. A few years later, I was fortunate to cross paths professionally with one Adam Kempinar. Adam in person and at work is exactly like he comes across in disembodied voice podcast form. Easy to talk to, intelligent and thoughtful. Life took me away from movie fandom over the next few years. But last fall, my wife and I had our first child and I found myself with a lot of new podcast time.

41:49Adam Kempenaar:Given how much time I spent holding slash feeding a sleepy child with headphones on at all hours of the night, rediscovering film spotting during this time has inspired me to get back to the movies and has helped me build Letterboxd watch lists to watch all the movies I missed during the past few years. Plus the calming and dulcet tones of Adam and Josh have helped me get through some very tired first time parent moments while sitting on the rocking chair in the nursery. Thanks, fellas. Hang in there, Luca. It'll get better. Indeed. A favorite review or segment of Luca's racing to the internet to figure out WTF happened at the end of Take Shelter and finding the best internet explanation coming from Adam.

42:27Adam Kempenaar:Thank you. Man, you're really piling it on now, Luca. Yeah, I paid him. I seem to be the only person that feels this way, but Hitman was awful. Glenn Powell playing dress up as different characters was fun, but couldn't get past the fact that the least believable character he played in the movie was his actual character. At no point did I buy him as a nerdy, lonely philosophy professor. And the whole pretense of the movie was that he just needs to wear a cool chain and comb his hair differently. And he becomes the suavest man on the planet. New Orleans was also wasted as a setting. Man, Luca might be right about that part.

43:00Josh Larsen:He was doing so good, kissing up to you, and then had to go against it, man.

43:04Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, now we're done. Letterboxd top four. Okay, I like this. Well, I like this until the end. Fury Road, Dazed and Confused, Lebowski, and Face Off. Took a turn there. Yeah. A favorite movie he revisited recently, 310 to Yuma. I'm going to assume that's the Russell Crowe remake, but you never know. A random film or filmmaker he loves. I love Charlie Kaufman's adaptation, especially having read Orchid Thief shortly before. It's the perfect meta movie. A movie he credits with becoming a cinephile. The Cones made me fall in love with movies. Oh, Brother and Lebowski were formative movies for me.

43:39Adam Kempenaar:Inside Llewyn Davis gets better every time I watch it. We're back, baby. finally a book about movies or movie making that he appreciates the film that changed my life 30 directors on their epiphanies in the dark so that's a book by robert elder who i interviewed on the show for that book if you want to check that out in the film spotting archive thank you so much luca for your support and for your kind words and we hope to hang out with you again sometime soon. If you would like to become a Film Spotting family member and maybe get featured on the show like Luca, I swear you don't even have to say nice things about us to get featured.

44:19Adam Kempenaar:Just tell us about your relationship to the show. It probably helps. Again, Sam picked it. Learn more at filmspottingfamily.com. Kraft Mac and Cheese is better than 90s hip-hop. We'll remind you of your childhood without making you feel incredibly old. Kraft Mac and Cheese, Best thing ever.

44:47Josh Larsen:How did we get here? And even worse, is it worth it? At the cost of being at war with your neighbors? That's why I'm running for mayor. Mayor Ed Ellington. Thank you super duper very much.

45:07Adam Kempenaar:That's Joaquin Phoenix in the trailer for Eddington, the latest from the director of Hereditary and Midsommar Ari Aster. His film is set in 2020 in small town New Mexico. Are we ready to go back to 2020, Josh? Did we ever really leave? Good question. You are going back. I am conveniently taking a vacation at this time. A vacation from 2020. That's right. For a week anyway. And Michael Phillips, the very capable Michael Phillips, will be sitting in my chair and going back to 2020 with you for this conversation about Eddington. We are going to, or the two of you, will be revisiting our top five Joaquin Phoenix performances.

45:56Adam Kempenaar:That's a top five we did back in 2023, which was a tie in with the previous Ari Aster, Joaquin Phoenix collaboration, but was afraid. Maybe we can get Michael to chime in with some of his favorite Phoenix performances.

46:09Josh Larsen:Yeah, yeah. Might not force him to do a full list, but I will definitely pick his brain on where he stands with the best of Joaquin Phoenix.

46:17Adam Kempenaar:Good. I do want to note, speaking of Michael Phillips, that while we missed you this year again, sadly, we got to get you back into the fold. I know you've been very busy. We, for the 10th time, Josh, and you were there for the first eight, but for the 10th year, not counting 2020, we. That's true. Went to Spring Green, Wisconsin this past weekend to visit the Van Hulgrens, take in some wonderful theater, including Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream at American Players Theater. Did you get it in? I know you were worried it was going to get rained out. Michael Phillips came along with us this year, and we hope to make him a regular part of our little troop venturing up to APT.

47:05Adam Kempenaar:Josh, for the first time in these 10 years, we had rain, and it rained almost the entire day, and it rained the entire first half of the play. But they went on. But it was light enough that they did go on and we had raincoats and ponchos and it was a case where at some point in that first act, it got heavy enough that if it continued like that for maybe another 10 or 20 minutes or certainly if it continued raining through the intermission, they might have had to call it. But right around intermission, it stopped. And in the second act, there was no rain at all. So it was not the usual gorgeous atmosphere that you get when we visit APT.

47:56Adam Kempenaar:So nice seeing outdoor plays there. But it was still a good time, still a wonderful production of that play. The next night, we saw a production of Picnic, and that was classic APT. wonderful summer, you know, 75 ish or 70 and sunny with the sun going down a nice breeze. Michael was there, as I said, and here's the thing about Sam. People who follow the film spotting Instagram might've seen this on the Instagram story. You really do just kind of have to keep your wives or significant others away from Sam and his house. And here's what I mean by that. Oh, where's this going? Here's what I mean by that.

48:39Adam Kempenaar:Here's what I mean by that, Josh. Okay. Because you show up and of course he's like the perfect host and he's, he's got dinner prepared. He's like made the brisket and everything.

48:53Josh Larsen:He was late for our production meeting because he was making the brisket.

48:55Adam Kempenaar:That's right. the briskets prepared it's delightful all sorts of other food and then after dinner he busts out a homemade peach and pretzel ice cream cake and he's over there he's putting the finishing touches on it with this whipped homemade cream and he's drizzling the peach on top and adding peaches to it. And I don't know, crushed up pecans or something. This thing looks like a work of art and I don't even like peaches much. And it tasted like a work of art. Now, what I was saying about your significant other, you know, Sarah's over there going, are you watching this, Adam? Good question. You watching this?

49:44Adam Kempenaar:She should. Where is it in her life? Why is this not happening for her? It's completely absent. And he just sets the bar too damn high all the time. So maybe we have to stop going to Spring Green.

49:56Josh Larsen:Yeah, I'm sorry we couldn't make it. Maybe next year we'll get back. We'll see. I'm going to see what's on the menu. We'll put it that way.

50:01Adam Kempenaar:See what Sam has planned for 2026. I'm sure it will be a delight, whatever it is. Next week, we will also have poll results. The current Deeply Flawed Film Spotting Poll asks you to choose one and only one Jack Nicholson performance. We'll share our top five Nicholson scenes in a couple of weeks. You can vote in that poll and leave a comment at filmspotting.net for our schedule of future shows. Visit filmspotting.net slash episodes.

50:27Josh Larsen:Adam cinema interrupt us is less than a month away. I know we have a good core group who has already signed up for all four days. They've committed to the project, Adam, getting through Robert Altman's, the player from beginning to end, which, you know, sounds easy. We are going to watch it in its entirety on day one, but then we'll come back, start at the beginning, and anyone can stop it, make a comment, ask a question until we get to the end. This is all happening at Chicago's Gene Siskel Film Center, August 11 through 14. So, yeah, join us. Get one of those four-day packages if you want to commit.

51:05Josh Larsen:But if you can only pop in for a day or two, single-day tickets will also be available. Those are all at syscallfilmcenter.org slash interruptus. This week on our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show, looking at cinemas present via its past. They are moving on to part two of their Kings of the Road pairing. It is F1, the movie. They'll be comparing this to Adam McKay's Talladega Nights, The Ballad of Ricky Bobby, which they discussed on the previous episode. New episodes of The Next Picture Show drop every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. new episodes of the laser age. Adam will also be available.

51:46Josh Larsen:Now this is from Keith Phipps, one of our next picture show friends. This is kind of a, it's based on a column he had at the dissolve back when the dissolve was around exploring science fiction films. The last half of the 20th century is what he's focusing on. I listened to the first episode today on silent running a movie. I have not seen, but I'm fascinated by. And he had a guest, John Hodgman. Right. Who's, you know, just hilarious and well nerdy enough to have a discussion with Keith about silent running. So really enjoyed this first episode of the laser age. And yeah, we encourage you to check that out.

52:30Adam Kempenaar:Silent running, part of our 70s sci-fi marathon back before you joined the show, Josh.

52:37Josh Larsen:Sounds like quite a doozy. Yes, it was. So yeah, check out The Laser Age and listen as well to the next picture show. You can find both wherever you get your podcasts. All right, time now for Massacre Theater, where we perform a scene, and you get a chance to win a film spotting prize. Last time we massacred this scene. Okay, here's the thought. I see an empty stage. I see drums. I see a drummer. I see a microphone. And I see a singer. Dad, come on. What? We gave that stuff up.

53:06Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, we don't do that.

53:07Josh Larsen:Listen, listen to me, Dale. Look, when I was a kid, when I was a little boy, I always wanted to be a dinosaur. I wanted to be a Tyrannosaurus Rex more than anything in the world. I made my arms short, and I roamed the backyard, and I chased the neighborhood cats, and I growled, and I roared. Everybody knew me and was afraid of me. And then one day my dad said, Bobby, you're 17. It's time to throw childish things aside. And I said, okay, Pop. But he didn't really say that. He said, stop being a dinosaur and get a job. But you know, I thought to myself, I'll go to medical school, I'll practice for a little while, and then I'll come back to it.

53:44Josh Larsen:Dad, how's that a skill? But I forgot how to do it. You're human. You could never be a dinosaur. Hey, I lost it. Dad, what's the point? Yeah. The point is don't lose your dinosaur. Pretty obvious why we chose that scene from Step Brothers, but let's hear from some listeners about the connections they made. Here's Brian Chudnow from Columbus, Indiana. This was probably the first Massacre Theater I had guessed well before the first lines were spoken. And as soon as the mention of Josh doing hand gestures was made, I knew that my guess was correct. The movie is, of course, the fantastic 2008 comedy Step Brothers.

54:22Josh Larsen:As far as connections go, I would guess the main one is just the Richard Jenkins speech. is about acting like a dinosaur, and you reviewed two dinosaur movies on the episode. Additionally, you used the names Cal and Bobby to reference the names of Farrell and Riley's characters from Talladega Nights, probably a better choice than the other Farrell and Riley collaboration, Holmes and Watson. The only other connection that came to mind for me was that Samuel L. Jackson does have a relatively brief but notable role in the Farrell film The Other Guys. One last one, Jeff Goldblum and Farrell have at least collaborated once when Goldblum hosted SNL while Farrell was still a cast member.

54:58Josh Larsen:If you have never seen Farrell and Goldblum's skit with Farrell acting as Harry Carey talking about space, I highly recommend you find the clip on YouTube as it's worth the watch. Hi! Let me ask, what's your favorite planet? Well, I don't have a favorite. I find them all fascinating. They're all part of a... Mine's the sun. Wow. How about that, Adam? Our listeners, like, don't just, they're not just satisfied with the dinosaur connection. Brian went deep. He went deep.

55:31Adam Kempenaar:And that Harry Carey clip is absolutely worth the watch. Here's Jake Meltzer in Las Vegas, Nevada. This is the quickest I've known a massacre theater in a long time. Shout out to the effing Catalina wine mixer. We got a lot of those. I'm not going to stretch for connections beyond the obvious invocation of the dinosaur, but I will say this. This may not be my favorite comedy of all time, but I don't know if there's a movie that makes me laugh harder every time I watch it. Fair enough. Josh, reach in to the Film Spotting hat and pick out this week's winner. Our winner is John Bond from Haddonfield, New Jersey.

56:05Adam Kempenaar:Congratulations, John. Email feedback at filmspotting.net and we will set you up with your very own Film Spotting t-shirt or a Film Spotting tote bag or a trial membership to the Film Spotting family. broadsheet journalists have described my impressions as stunningly accurate well they're wrong i've not heard your michael caine but i assume it would be something along the lines of our name's michael caine that is where you are so wrong we move on now to this week's edition of massacre theater and producer sam must be a little disappointed with the number of entries because Because he's made this one, I think, a little obvious, Josh.

56:46Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, it's being served right up there on a platter. At least the tie-in, that's for sure. You started off. I'm going to give you the action. This is going to require some voice work, at least by you. Are you ready? Let's do it. And action. Sup, supes. Wow, it's Batman, and he's in my house right now. What are you doing here? Don't worry about it, dog.

57:11Josh Larsen:Not here to throw down or anything. Ah, no, I would crush you. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Hey, listen, thank me later, but I just happened to be in the hood, and I figured you could probably use the company. Wait a minute. Are you having the 57th Annual Justice League Anniversary Party without me?

57:31Adam Kempenaar:No, no, no, no, no, no, no. There must have been some mistake with the email. That's crazy, man. All right, well, that clears everything up, right? Enjoy the party, bro. Hit it, DJ. Wonder Dog and

57:47Josh Larsen:Scene. I was just waiting to see how you were going to do that last bit. Congratulations. I hope I delivered.

57:56Adam Kempenaar:If you know what film we just massacred, email the movie's title and your name and location to feedback at filmspotting.net. The deadline is Monday, July 28th. We will select the winner randomly from all the correct entries and announce it in a couple of weeks.

58:13Josh Larsen:Who am I? Your name is Kal-El.

58:18Adam Kempenaar:You are the only survivor of the planet Krypton. Even though you've been raised as a human being, you are not one of them. You have great powers, only some of which you have as yet discovered. That's Marlon Brando's Jor-El, father of Kal-El in 1978's Superman, colon the movie, a heartfelt scene that James Gunn offers a little twist on. In his film, we are sharing our top five Superman movie moments, and this is a little twist on a top five we've already done. Way back on episode 579, I had on a couple of guests, Chris Klemek and Glenn Weldon from Pop Culture Happy Hour. And if you'd like to hear them talk about this Superman 2025, James Guns, and have way more positive things to say, as I understand, Josh, they are on Pop Culture Happy Hour reviewing the film with Linda Holmes.

59:18Adam Kempenaar:And you can get that wherever you get your podcasts. they shared their favorite Batman Superman moments. So it was a combination. Some Batman scenes, some Superman scenes. We're devoting this top five entirely to Superman. Now you weren't there for that list. That's why I had on Chris and Glenn. So we're going to get your favorite Superman moments. And I got to expand on my list. I decided to set aside the two Superman scenes. It's kind of crazy actually that I picked three Batman moments considering I'm more of a Superman kind of kid. But I put those two in the honorable mentions, found five more that I'm a big fan of, and let's jump in.

1:00:01Josh Larsen:Yeah. I don't know if I was a Superman kid. I was a Superman young kid because as you said up top, 78 and then 80 for Superman 2, probably 80 is right when I was really into these sorts of movies. And so liked Superman then, but quickly, I think in my head outgrew him. So by the time middle school or so came around and it was Tim Burton's Batman, I was totally all in on Batman. But then years later came back around to Superman and appreciating once more what they pulled off with the 78 version. All that's to say, Adam, I really don't know much Superman beyond those two Christopher Reeve films and the recent ones, which I haven't really enjoyed much at all.

1:00:53Josh Larsen:So I did some research for this list. I wanted to learn more about the Superman that came before my time and just see what pops up as essential about this character over the decades. So So going all the way back, being somewhat familiar with the original 38 comic, but then animated versions that came shortly thereafter. And yes, even the George Reeves TV series. So let's start with Reeves. Can I start with George Reeves here at number five? Absolutely. Okay. So the interesting thing, didn't realize this, I knew about the TV series, but there was a feature film that was used to promote that, to kick it off.

1:01:32Josh Larsen:And it was called Superman and the Mole Men. This is 1951. Now, I hear a title like that. Speak in my language, right? I mean, come on. I was like, I'm watching this thing. I got to watch this thing. It helps that it's 58 minutes. But yeah, the manimal quotient, the manimal material wasn't great, Adam. These mole men, they basically have bald caps. You can see they put a little fur on their hands. That's about it. That's about all you get. That was not a highlight. Overall, this was a little rough. It's stiff. It's very slow, but Reeves, George Reeves gets a couple of great scenes that are particularly interesting given all the right wing hand wringing that's going on about this new Superman.

1:02:19Josh Larsen:The basic plot here involves a deep earth oil drill that breaks into the realm of the mole men. Now, a few of these mole men come out of the hole to investigate what's going on and the townsfolk go nuts. They're paranoid. They're trigger happy. They turn into a lynch mob. And you've got Superman here, George Reef Superman, trying to keep the peace. So here he is when the armed mob shows up at the hospital where one of the wounded mole men is being treated for a gunshot. You're going to step aside or we have to make trouble. Put some lagnum, Luke. Mr. Benson tried that once already. It didn't work.

1:02:58Josh Larsen:Now I'm going to give you one last chance to stop acting like Nazi stormtroopers. Who are you to tell us what to do? All I'm telling you is that that little creature in there has as much right to live as you do. Don't forget, you invaded his world. You sank a pipe six miles into the ground. And when he climbed up, you set dogs on him. Shot him. So I've got to credit Amy Nicholson, LA Times film critic, because she was posting about Superman and the Mole Man on Blue Sky. This is what alerted me to it. And regarding that clip in particular, she said this, had to mention this scene in my Superman review because it's still startling in 2025.

1:03:38Josh Larsen:A rural mob wants to lynch the outsider moment. Superman confiscates their guns and calls them Nazis. So, you know what, Adam? Maybe we should make America great again. Okay. We, we are a long way from the sort of level-headed communal common sense that Superman displayed here in 1951. So I think we should do it. Uh, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't advise watching Superman and the moment in whole, but you can find that scene in our show notes. And I did choose it because I think it does speak to an essential quality that the pacifist nature of Superman that not every iteration has, has quite gotten right.

1:04:19Josh Larsen:This one did. Okay.

1:04:21Adam Kempenaar:I did not dig into any George Reeves or other TV Superman. Unlike you, though, I have seen and have to admit, as a kid, I quite liked Superman 3 with Richard Pryor. And I even liked, I even like for a spell Superman for the quest for peace, but no, I will not be picking any great Superman moments from either of those installments, nor will I be picking any great moments from Batman v Superman or justice league. That doesn't mean Zack Snyder may not appear anywhere on my list. Josh, he's not coming in at number five, though. My number five is from Superman 2, and it's the diner revenge scene. Oh, yeah.

1:05:11Josh Larsen:Now, keep in mind, I am watching this movie.

1:05:14Adam Kempenaar:I am what that's it. I'm watching this movie as a grade schooler, and it's so satisfying, right? It's satisfying now, but especially satisfying then. It's set up by one of the worst Superman moments to watch, right? Clark Kent, absent his Superman powers, trying to defend his wife's honor at a diner. And he's just beaten senseless by this vulgar trucker.

1:05:48Adam Kempenaar:i said in our superman 2025 review that this superman was perfect well i actually don't think corin sweat superman would do this would come back at the end of the film to get revenge he

1:06:03Josh Larsen:wouldn't believe in revenge yeah it kind of goes against it does the ethos of yes the reeve superman

1:06:10Adam Kempenaar:It's an interesting scene. Yeah. But Henry Cavill's Superman does something like this. And certainly Christopher Reeves wasn't above this. His Superman wasn't above this because he gets his revenge here. He comes back to the diner after regaining his powers and finds this trucker.

1:06:32Josh Larsen:Excuse me, sir. I think you're sitting in my favorite seat. No. Come and get it.

1:06:39Adam Kempenaar:Donner's just so good with the camera. The way once he gets the trucker's attention, he starts to walk. And just as he starts to walk, the camera starts to pull back, track backwards as he walks, which builds a little tension as he moves forward. And here's the thing about being a kid. The whole sequence is a bit cartoonish, right? He takes the trucker and he spins him like a thousand miles an hour on the seat. Then he slides him down the counter. And what does he say? This order's to go. And when everyone looks at him like, wait a second, aren't you the loser that he beat up? How do you explain this?

1:07:22He says, oh, I've been working out.

1:07:26Adam Kempenaar:And the guy's face after he gets slid down the counter and he ends up in the pinball machine and he makes that face, you know, like his eyes are rolling back. Yeah, like a Looney Tunes. Looney Tunes. there's some kind of bird in the pinball machine that's then like pecking him right this cuckoo like effect it's just what we all dream of especially as a little kind of powerless kid being the boy or being the man who stands up and takes down the bad guy you want to be the guy who does it the first time but if for some reason you can't be that guy you get to come back and even the score. And as the kid rooting for Superman, you don't want Superman to lose ever, whether he's Superman or Clark Kent, you don't want him to lose and getting that revenge, watching that scene.

1:08:20Adam Kempenaar:You were kind of waiting the whole movie for it to happen.

1:08:24Josh Larsen:It's that's the word, the word you use satisfying. It was just so satisfying in the moment. And now that I'm thinking probably right around the time I saw this might've been when I was dealing with the neighborhood bully who waited for me between the bus stop and the house. I think a lot of people have had that kid in their life. And maybe this is just about then when I saw the scene and I just loved it so much. I had my own Superman, an older kid in the neighborhood who would be on the bus too, and he would walk with me sometimes. But yeah, if he wasn't there, I had to run pretty quick. So you had a bodyguard instead of gaining your own powers.

1:09:06Josh Larsen:Exactly. Exactly. All right. So for my number four, let's get to the gold standard. 1978 Superman with Christopher Reeve and Margo Kidder. And my pick here is faster than a speeding bullet. This is a relatively early scene. And like my number five pick from Mole Man, it presents a decidedly pacifist version of the hero, especially when it comes to guns, actually. so this is Lois and Clark Kent getting held up at gunpoint by a mugger. Clark tries to be reasonable at first. Just a minute mister just a minute now I realize of course that times are tough for some these days but this isn't the answer.

1:09:44Josh Larsen:You can't solve society's problems with a gun. You know somebody you're right. I'm gonna turn over a new leaf.

1:09:53Adam Kempenaar:Good for you sir that's the spirit. See he doesn't really want to hurt anybody. Uh-huh. Right after I rip off this lady's purse. Of course. Now, come on, lady. Hand it over.

1:10:03Josh Larsen:But Lois gets feisty.

1:10:05Adam Kempenaar:Lois? What are you doing?

1:10:07Josh Larsen:The mugger shoots and Clark catches the bullet. Then the aftermath of this is where it gets really good from a character standpoint because Clark has to downplay the heroism of Superman that he just displayed and lean into the wimpiness of his alter ego.

1:10:33Josh Larsen:I love in the Reeve films when we get a little moment when Superman peeks out from behind Clark's glasses. And you won't be able to hear that here, but you can see it in the clip. This is when he drops the charade just to himself here. We get a quick touch of it when Lois walks away and we see Clark look down at the bullet in his hand and just allows himself a little grin of satisfaction. So, so many scenes you could pick to show why Reeve was so brilliant in this part. And, and this is one of them that I had to include faster than a speeding bullet.

1:11:09Adam Kempenaar:It's really good. And speaking of Lois being feisty in that first diner scene after he's beaten the hell out of clark lois like jumps on his back oh that's right she's just a lot of attack yeah she is not going down without a fight which is why we love margot kidders lois lane my number four is where i'm going to give zach snyder's man of steel a little love. I don't think there is much, there's much right about any of the Zack Snyder supermans, but I am choosing the pretty famous and rightfully so first flight scene, because if you think about at least all the supermans, I can recall, we have never before witnessed Superman figuring out how to fly.

1:12:05Adam Kempenaar:Superman failing at flying. This is the great Spider-Man sequence usually. This is Peter Parker with the webs. Yes. Bouncing off the ground repeatedly and other parts of the landscape. And the way Snyder then once he does kind of finally get really airborne, he keeps the camera on his face for a little bit of time. It's not manic editing. And you see Cavill really gritting his teeth. You see that Superman's really struggling to stay in the air as he is pushing upward. And it's as if he's having to will himself forward, which is something we don't think about with Superman. We do see him in Superman 2025.

1:12:50Adam Kempenaar:And in other films, we see that he can be quite aggressive as a flyer. That's actually something I like in this film. I like watching in the new one when corn sweat really, you know, does take off like a bullet. But here, he really has to work at it. And there is a moment then when he finally feels like he's got the hang of it and he thrusts forward and laughs. And of course, the moment he gets cocky, that's when he crashes down into a mountain. But then he pauses. The movie pauses. He's got a little of that voiceover in his head from his father. Why am I so different from them?

1:13:27Josh Larsen:Earth's sun is younger and brighter than Krypton's was. Your cells are drunk in its radiation. Strengthening your muscles, your skin, your senses. Earth's gravity is weaker, yet its atmosphere is more nourishing. You've grown stronger here than I ever could have imagined. The only way to know how strong is to keep testing your limits.

1:13:53Adam Kempenaar:He collects himself and he feels that sun that empowers him. And that's when, like a rocket ship, he takes off. And you watch him speeding across all those different terrains and then finally into space. And it's really, I don't know if we say this often about Zack Snyder films, but it's a very elegantly cut together sequence with a great score by Hans Zimmer accompanying it. And from an action point of view, even though it's just Superman, it's a genuinely thrilling scene.

1:14:29Josh Larsen:All right. Man of Steel getting some attention. I might have an honorable mention from Man of Steel. We'll get to in just a little bit. But at number three, I'm going in a different direction because I was familiarizing myself with more Superman for this list. I did ask the folks who've subscribed to my Larson on film email newsletter for their Superman picks. And so I want to thank Ben page for reminding me of the series of theatrical animated shorts that Fleischer studios made in the early 1940s. Now these are all on YouTube. I think there were about like eight minutes each. So I went into a bit of a rabbit hole watching a bunch of these.

1:15:10Josh Larsen:They look great. I mean, you've got vibrant technicolor. The imagery is very Art Deco influenced, even though it's a little time after that period. Sharp sound design, it's almost like these were, you could tell this was the age of radio too, because the sound effects and the sound design is very sophisticated. Now, rather than just one scene from the ones that I watched, my pick is actually going to be the opening introductory narration for each short. It's repeated each time because it really cemented the Superman character as we'd come to know him. The basics. Faster than a speeding bullet.

1:15:50Josh Larsen:More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings at a single bound. The infant of Sripton is now the man of steel. Superman. So yeah, these Fleischer shorts were fascinating little time capsules. I would absolutely encourage listeners to check one or two out if you haven't seen them before. They're quite good. Wow. You're just showing off now all the homework you did, the deep cuts. It was so much fun. And, you know, eight minutes for these 58 minutes for mole men. Come on. I could fit that in.

1:16:21Adam Kempenaar:All right. My number three, I think it's possible that I've never, maybe someone who's been through the archives a couple of times and there are crazy listeners who've done that. I mean that in the most positive way, maybe they can recall whether or not I've ever brought this up before. I don't think I have brought up this scene, even though it is honestly, Josh, one of the scenes in movie history that looms the largest in my imagination, in my memory. It's from Superman, the movie, and it's the death of Pa Kent, Glenn Ford, near the beginning of the film when a teenage Clark Kent has come home and he's getting some fatherly advice.

1:17:13Adam Kempenaar:When you first came to us, we thought that people would come and take you away because when they found out, you know, the things you could do, it worried us a lot. Then a man gets older and he thinks very differently and things get very clear. and there's one thing I do know, son, and that is you are here for a reason. I don't know whose reason, whatever the reason is. Maybe it's because...

1:17:42Adam Kempenaar:I don't know what's... But I do know one thing. It's not to score touchdowns. Huh? Thanks, man. Wonderful portrayal of Pa Kent by Glenn Ford. You know, this Hollywood icon who just brings all the the gravitas that you need that role to bring and just instantly gives you a sense of compassion and love for his son. And as they walk up the driveway, he gives him some advice. And then Superman runs off with his dog into the garage. and as pocket heads up the driveway we see him clutch his left arm and he's having a heart attack he's having those early signs of a heart attack and he collapses everything about this whole sequence the heart attack itself the next few moments the discovery ma kent seeing that he's down on the ground and some of the other shots and then into the funeral, which is how the movie transitions.

1:18:55Adam Kempenaar:These are the moments, Josh, the use of the camera here and Donner's staging of it that when you rewatch it, it just supports any case for this movie as still and maybe always the definitive Superman movie. the scale of it, the authenticity of it. He's using a lot of deep focus. So you really get these rich landscapes. I don't know if it was actually shot in Kansas or not, but it certainly feels like it was. And the moment Josh, for example, when Ma Kent yells, Jonathan, when she sees him down on the ground and it cuts to Clark in the garage with the dog. It's this silhouetted moment where they are in front of the doorway of the barn, you know, and you see the light coming through the barn and they're in shadow.

1:19:58Adam Kempenaar:And it's almost like one of those John Wayne and the searchers like shots. It feels mythic that shot does. And something about that moment, again, I'm watching this as a very young kid and I'll say my dad had a heart attack. His dad had a heart attack. And I don't know that I ever got the whole story now that I think about it, about how it happened. But as a kid, hearing the story of my grandfather, who I never met, he died before I was born hearing the story of how he had a heart attack whatever i heard because i didn't get a lot of details i filled in the blanks sure sure with superman the movie i envisioned my grandfather again who i never met going down like clutching his arm and surely he was outside his house like in the driveway and he went down exactly like glenn ford does this so that's how i envisioned it.

1:20:56Adam Kempenaar:How else could it be? So this scene, as I said, is always been one that's been kind of important to me. It wasn't until later that I realized that my version of a heart attack or what I imagined that looked like a man, a 50, 60, 70 year old man having a heart attack, what that looked like was something that was just fictional, was out of a movie. And like I said, when it goes to the cemetery, when it then goes to the funeral, it's this wonderful dissolve. And then it, it It starts on a pan with the camera panning left. And here again, the shots, the compositions, as you see Clark and his mother standing sort of in the side of the frame and another couple in the other corner.

1:21:41Adam Kempenaar:It's just so beautifully rendered. And the line to talk about the the emotion of this scene, emotion that I surely never felt, unfortunately, watching Superman 2025. 25, the line Clark says to his mother, all those powers, and I couldn't even save him.

1:21:57Josh Larsen:Yeah. Donner manages just some incredible imagery in a movie that I think at first memory, we just think of as a lot of bright reds and blues, but it's much more than that. And as far as Pa Kent's go, and a little more Man of Steel praise here, Kevin Costner really good in that role in Man of Steel. Maybe for me, one of the highlights there. All right. So we are at our number two picks, and this is where I'm going to go to Superman 2, my childhood Superman movie. As we were saying, probably too young to have seen the first film in theaters. Pretty sure I saw this one in theaters and certainly rewatched this over and over again when I was, I don't know, maybe 10 or so.

1:22:43Josh Larsen:I mean, watching clips today, preparing for this list, so deeply nostalgic. I realized, oh my goodness, I just put these on repeat when I was a kid. One of them that I loved and I'm picking here, I definitely remember being giddy over the soap opera drama of the moment in Superman 2 when Margot Kidder's Lois finally forces Christopher Reeve as Clark to admit that he's Superman.

1:23:10Adam Kempenaar:You are Superman. Oh, Lois, come on.

1:23:14Josh Larsen:Part of the magic in this scene is the slow transition Reeve makes from Clark to Superman. And it's like one step Superman, two steps back to Clark. We've got his flustered denial. You can hear that's his instinct. That's all Clark, right? But then what follows it almost a half second later, a soft punch of the pillow. That's Superman. Then he walks away from her, turns his back to her. That's Clark. And then he commits, turns around, not only takes off his glasses, but if you watch this scene, watch how he changes his posture. His whole body morphs when he decides he's going to drop the charade.

1:23:59Josh Larsen:I don't know why I did that. Maybe you wanted to. I don't think I did. Well, maybe you didn't want to. With your mind, but maybe you want to with your heart. Just a note here on the John Williams score, which applies pretty much to both Superman and Superman 2. It's often remembered for its triumphant blasts, which are a lot of fun. But the real genius in watching a lot of these scenes is how it's employed in the softer moments. So you barely notice it in the background. It's a variation on the same theme, but it's there quietly, softly, almost as if the score is gently holding the movie in its hands.

1:24:46Josh Larsen:And this is what happens in this wonderful scene. You are Superman from Superman 2, which is where I'm going with my number two.

1:24:55Adam Kempenaar:It's not only that his entire posture changes, which it does. you watch that scene and you see how as he turns he fills his entire chest his lungs with air yeah and it it could be a case that that was reeve showing superman it's almost the opposite of a sigh you know where he's finally like okay i'm accepting that i'm finally going to do this and he's kind of mustering the courage but it also seems like it's just that in keeping with that idea of his posture and assuming the role of Superman, it is if he's broadening his entire chest. Yeah.

1:25:35Josh Larsen:He's living into who he really is. That's right.

1:25:37Adam Kempenaar:That moment. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned the score because that's another element, of course, of that death of pop Kent scene is the way the John Williams score just subtly turns and becomes more sorrowful there when Jonathan starts to feel those symptoms, the signs of the heart attack. My number two is also from Superman 2, and I'm going to call this another very satisfying scene. It is the end of Superman 2. It is the climactic ending anyway. It is defeating Zod. at the Fortress of Solitude, the entire sequence where we see Superman turn the table, deceive General Zod and his two minion, and take away their power.

1:26:38Adam Kempenaar:And what I love about it, there's two things I really love about it. Well, there's three. One is just, again, you're watching that, and Superman, Reeve as Superman, tricks you as an audience member, at least as a kid, certainly. And you believe that they've beat him. You believe, even though it's a Superman movie, that they're taking his powers away. You don't notice that the color has changed outside the room and that he's really tricked them and taken their powers away. You're sure that he's lost. He can't beat them. And it's over. Just like Lois Lane in that scene, who's covering her eyes. She can't even watch as it's happening, right and you're heartbroken and so then we get the twist and we love that but beyond that it really is just a master class of reeve from an acting standpoint the the fun he's having the little devious fun he's having with hackman who's also having such devious fun like the way he tricks him.

1:27:41Josh Larsen:Try to get them all into this molecule chamber. It takes away their powers, see? And turns them into ordinary human beings. Now, if you could... Don't go in there, General. It's a trap. You poisonous snake! That's a molecule chamber. It makes people like you into people like me.

1:28:03Adam Kempenaar:You can't believe for a second that Superman seems to trust him. Of course, all part of the ruse.

1:28:18Adam Kempenaar:I said there were two or three things I loved about it. There's so many more. The way he crushes his hand. The way Hackman points out what really happened. He switched it.

1:28:31Josh Larsen:He did it to them. I mean, the lights were on out here. Well, he was safe in there.

1:28:38Adam Kempenaar:And then, of course. Hey, you know something? Lois Lane puts it all together. You're a real pain in the neck. Gives her the fist to the face. Ursa, is that her name? Sounds right. And just so many great moments there defeating Zod.

1:28:55Josh Larsen:Yeah. I'm trying to remember now, again, having rewatched it so many times, like, was I onto the plan? You know, because when you talked about the lights. I definitely wasn't. like the lights switching that that's such like a great clue to give to kids in the audience too. Right. Um, and you do wonder as Donner and collaborators were thinking about who they're making this movie for, right. Cause, um, it works on both levels. It obviously worked for us at a young age, but I think, you know, it works for adults too. So yeah, that's a great pick. All right. Number one, no brainer, no brainer. Number one for me.

1:29:33Josh Larsen:One of those that as soon as we talked about this. I knew it was going to be there. The helicopter rescue from 1978 Superman. And I'm picking officially the whole sequence here, but honestly, it could just be that delightful quippy exchange mid-rescue between Superman and Lucas.

1:29:52Adam Kempenaar:Easy, miss. I've got you. You've got me. Who's got you? As a Superman sequence, though, this really has it all.

1:30:01Josh Larsen:First, you get the phone booth gag. It's not a booth. He runs up to the phone, but it's like an open phone stand. So he doesn't know where to go. He's got to do that speed change in the revolving door. Again, like as a kid, something that's funny, but also how cool, look how fast the door is going. We were easily entertained as kids, Adam. But you get such clean, clear effects work throughout this sequence that is paired with practical stunts, clearly rooted in the real world. That is a helicopter. You know, we can touch these things. And I think that, you know, is probably a fair amount of rear projection.

1:30:42Josh Larsen:But whatever combination, it all looks really good. And yeah, as we touched on, it's better than just about anything in the new 2025 Superman in terms of effects. All of this to the point you've been making about Richard Donner as director. Just economically staged, smartly staged, composed in a way that isn't calling attention to itself, but is rather letting the excitement emerge on its own. There's something that a filmmaker who's not pushing the pedal down too hard, but knows how to push the pedal. That's what you see Donner doing. And there's a distinction there that can be overlooked. And maybe some people can dismiss Superman as not being quite as flashy or as exciting.

1:31:33Josh Larsen:But in a sequence like this, it's all there. Everything you need is there. Yeah. And here's the main thing. This scene is all about rescue. and doing this list, watching all sorts of Superman, that's the heart of the character for me. That's what I probably people will say, duh. But again, not a Superman guy. That's what I realized is Superman exists not to defeat, not to conquer, not to bludgeon, simply to save and rescue. And it's interesting because that's a very simple concept that can be difficult to sustain. I do think maybe that's why his sequels peter out. Maybe it's why we don't need other variations beyond Donners is this is a simple idea.

1:32:18Josh Larsen:This is a guy who's here to save and rescue. Audiences have not been content with that. We crave more conflict. We crave more villains. I mean, we got to a point where it was Superman v. Batman. Nobody needed that. That has nothing to do with Superman. At his best, Superman's just, he's just a hero scooping up a helicopter falling from the sky. It's all we get here. And, and it's more than enough. I wasn't alone in this pick to other subscribers to that Larson NFL newsletter singled it out. So I just want to give them a little time here. Ed Redman said it just set the tone for what a fun movie it was going to be and how Christopher Reeve brought his charm and enthusiasm to the role.

1:32:59Josh Larsen:And then Jeremy Kennes, when it's capped off with the score as he catches the helicopter, it's perfect so yeah for me maybe the perfect superman moment it's at my number one uh the

1:33:11Adam Kempenaar:helicopter rescue you know who else was smart enough to have it at number one josh me back on episode 579 seriously all right but not now come on you can bring it back no i thought about it believe me especially as i was rushing to prepare i thought hey joint number one i'll just yeah look for my notes from last time and repeat myself, but I thought, no, you know what? There are so many good scenes from the Superman movies, but especially just from Superman, the movie that I don't need to repeat myself. And I decided, I decided to go with a different scene from Superman, the movie involving Superman and Lois.

1:33:52Adam Kempenaar:And I had one first flight scene here in this top five, Of course, my number four from Man of Steel. I'm going at number one for this list with the first flight that Lois and Superman have. That's great. Culminates the interview scene that they have. Ready? Clark said that you're just a figment of somebody's imagination. Like Peter Pan.

1:34:24Josh Larsen:Clark. Who's that? Your boyfriend? Clark?

1:34:28Adam Kempenaar:Oh, Clark. No, he's nothing. He's just a...

1:34:30Josh Larsen:Peter Pan, huh?

1:34:31Adam Kempenaar:Uh-huh.

1:34:33Josh Larsen:Peter Pan flew with children, Lois, in a fairy tale.

1:34:45Adam Kempenaar:This is another great example of the John Williams score doing a lot of the heavy lifting, right? It's so good, this flying sequence, the music, that's what it's called on the soundtrack. And what has to work here, Josh, and it's just a very small thing, but with the filmmaking, as he, as Superman, starts to lift her off the ground, the shot is he's talking to her, and it's a two-shot in medium close-up. And he's been talking to her in that two shot for something like 20 or 30 seconds. I think as I'm kind of scanning through it, they, they are held in that shot. And then I think they walk into it.

1:35:31Adam Kempenaar:And so they're in closeup and they're talking to each other and then they start to lift off. And at the beginning of the shot, rather than when they start to fly, they've already cut to the wide shot. They start to take off in that closeup. So it feels we feel like, oh, this is real. You know, Superman starting to fly already as they're in that shot, even though it was probably more practical for him to start moving right in that close up because he's not really needing to lift off the ground necessarily. It feels to us like he's starting to fly. Then we get the wide shot where he does come off that balcony and the wire work or whatever effects they're using there, Josh, is just so seamless.

1:36:21Adam Kempenaar:You know, you know, there's no projection there or anything. And we have to believe it. We have to think in that moment that he really has somehow just lifted off that balcony with her. And we do. Now, as they fly through the sky here in complete opposition to the scene, very different scene, obviously, but a very different type of editing and overall kind of staging this compared to the Man of Steel scene. this is all about the romance and their bonding in this moment. And it is so elegant and graceful. And what I really appreciate about it the most, Josh, even though it still has that awe to it, because you see them fly around the Statue of Liberty and around all the skyscrapers at night, right?

1:37:12Adam Kempenaar:It, it does have that, especially if you were watching it on a big screen, you get a little bit of the spectacle, but it goes back to something we were talking about in relation to that great scene in Jurassic park where they first see the dinosaurs, watch this scene and notice how much of the time is spent not looking at long shots of them flying and the surroundings, their environment, how much of it is spent on their faces. It is all about the experience that they're having together, but especially the experience that Lois Lane is having in the air with Superman. And I don't really want to undersell it.

1:38:00Adam Kempenaar:Like how many different variations, credit to Margot Kidder, how many variations on first fear can you come up with as an actress? She has to come up with quite a few. And then that sense of wonder, that sense of awe that she has, we see a lot of variations from her and they all work in this three minute-ish sequence. It is all about her experience and the experience we're having through her as she flies through the sky with him.

1:38:38Josh Larsen:Thus concludes our top five Margot Kidder scenes. Yes. She's so great.

1:38:43Adam Kempenaar:There you have it. Those are our top five Margot Kidder and Superman moments. Josh, do you have any honorable mentions?

1:38:52Josh Larsen:Yeah, I mentioned the Man of Steel pick here, and it doesn't actually come from me, but I want to give Man of Steel a little more credit here. The Zack Snyder film from 2013. This is from reader Jeff Van Vickle, who talks about the moment where Superman is surrendering to the authorities, Henry Cavill's Superman. He basically restrains his own powers. Jeff wrote,

1:39:42Josh Larsen:man in tights. So yeah, thank you, Jeff, for that. And then an honorable mention of my own, maybe the scene, Adam, that gripped me the most from Superman 2 is the Niagara Falls rescue. I watched it again today and it's not really all that great of a sequence, but as a kid and being a kid who was always just tempted to hang on the wrong side of a railing over a precipice, The thought crossed my mind, you know, to see that that boy do it fall in Superman rescue him. Yeah, that one stuck with me.

1:40:20Adam Kempenaar:So obviously my number one from last time, the helicopter rescue, your number one honorable mention this time. The other Superman scene I had on that list, I'll throw in as an honorable mention from Man of Steel. actually it's I think a flashback that Superman is having where he's in a classroom as a young boy like in grade school the scene is called or when you find it online the world's too big he's talking to his mom and he's saying the world's too big he can't handle all the noise because of course he experiences everything he feels everything on a level that normal kids don't feel and experience and I really like that scene and you mentioned Kevin Costner I did find a reddit I didn't read it but I did see a reddit thread as I was googling something where there are some people shocking there's some people out there who I guess hate this scene or at least hate the whole plot line or this moment itself the decision to have this character go out this way but Jonathan's sacrifice Kevin Costner's Pa Kent that that scene I actually really like that whole scene and that that moment, the decision he makes for his son as misguided, of course, as it is.

1:41:37Adam Kempenaar:And as it may be, even seems in the moment, you believe, I believe that character believes it's the only thing he can do.

1:41:44Josh Larsen:Yeah. Costner's good.

1:41:45Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. He's really good. Chris's number one from last time I'll mention here, especially as it's the lead up to my number one from this time, the interview with Superman. And I know we're not supposed to talk about Brian Singer at all. And I don't really want to talk about Superman Returns because I didn't like the movie much at all. But Chris and Glenn, Superman aficionados, did have multiple picks from Superman Returns. And the scene where Superman saves the airplane is pretty exciting when I rewatched it today.

1:42:18Josh Larsen:It's closer in spirit, I think, actually to 78 Superman than in a lot of ways this latest version is. So that one's a curiosity for sure.

1:42:28Adam Kempenaar:Again, those are our top five Superman movie moments. You can find those choices and links to watch those scenes at filmspotting.net slash lists. We would love to hear your thoughts, your picks, and any other thoughts about the show. You can email feedback at filmspotting.net. Josh, that is our show.

1:42:46Josh Larsen:You can connect with Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, and Letterboxd at FilmSpotting. I'm at those places as well as Blue Sky as Larson on Film. We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the FilmSpotting family at FilmSpottingFamily.com. You can listen early and ad-free, get a weekly newsletter, monthly bonus episodes, and access to the entire show archive. If you want show t-shirts or other merch, go to FilmSpotting.net slash shop.

1:43:16Adam Kempenaar:In that film spotting archive, you can find the show we've mentioned multiple times with Chris Klemmick and Glenn Weldon. We reviewed Batman v. Superman, Dawn of Justice. You can probably skip that part. Go right to the Batman Superman movie moments. We actually dropped that in our podcast feed earlier this week. That's episode 579. Man of Steel was reviewed on episode 450. And Superman Returns was reviewed way back on episode 112 with Sam Van Halgren. Big, big fan of that film. In limited release, you can see Don't Let's Go to the Dogs Tonight. This is actress Mbeth Davids making her directing debut with an adaptation of Alexander Fuller's memoir about growing up during the Zimbabwean War for independence.

1:43:59Adam Kempenaar:You can also see To a Land Unknown. This is about Palestinian refugees trying to score fake passports to get out of Athens, our friend Isaac Feldberg says, crafted with the same flavor of rough, vivid street poetry that flowed through Ramin Barani's chop shop and its forefather, Vittorio De Sica's bicycle thieves. That's some heady company, Josh. in wide release. I know what you did last summer. We're just reheating it, recycling it. Why not? What re-term do you want to use? The 97 film with the same name. Yeah, just reheat. Reheat covers it all. Smurfs.

1:44:33Josh Larsen:Is this another reheat? There's a note here that Smurfs sing. They're singing this time. Did they not sing before? I don't know. Didn't they sing in the cartoon you and I grew up on alongside Superman? They always sang.

1:44:46Adam Kempenaar:This is nothing new, kids. and Eddington, Sheriff Joaquin Phoenix and Mayor Pedro Pascal come to blows in small town, New Mexico. And the latest from Ari Aster, I somehow lucked out and got out of duty on this one with you, duty.

1:45:02Josh Larsen:Wow. The pre-Eddington disinterest.

1:45:05Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Well, you know, I am not a big Ari Aster guy. This is true. And we have already commented on how going back to 2020 does seem a little dispiriting at the moment, but you will be making that trip along with the Chicago Tribune's Michael Phillips. We'll also share our top five Joaquin Phoenix performances. There may be a couple of other quick reviews thrown in there as well.

1:45:28Josh Larsen:Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dissot and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:45:48Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

1:46:08Adam Kempenaar:Film Spotting is listener-supported. Join the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com and get access to ad-free episodes, monthly bonus shows, our weekly newsletter, and for the first time, all in one place, the entire Film Spotting archive going back to 2005. That's at filmspottingfamily.com. Panoply.

1:46:32Josh Larsen:A flawless makeup look starts with the right foundation shade. Sounds simple, right? But finding your perfect match can honestly be one of the hardest parts of your routine. But there is good news. Sephora has all the best brands in one place with so many shades, finishes, and coverage options to choose from.

1:46:49Adam Kempenaar:Plus, their beauty advisors, shade matching tools, and free samples make it so much easier to find the one that's just right for you. Visit Sephora and find your match.

1:47:01Josh Larsen:Got a trivia question for you. How many square miles can a black bear roam? Well, up to$250 for a male black bear, which also happens to be the number of reasons to choose T-Mobile. Here's one awesome reason. They have the fastest 5G home internet according to Ookla Speed Test, which you can test for yourself with a 15-day money-back guarantee. Another reason? Setup is fast and easy, too. Plug it in and you're online in practically no time with no appointment or technician needed. Those are just a few reasons. Find yours at t-mobile.com slash home internet, where you can check availability and try it for yourself.

1:47:44Josh Larsen:Fastest, according to Ookla Speed Test Intelligence data, second half of 2025. All rights reserved. Redeem money-back guarantee within 30 days of cancellation.

1:47:56Adam Kempenaar:Some so-called SUVs feel more like toys. You need a real vehicle that'll handle real life. A real SUV, like the all-new 2027 Kia Seltos. With its best-in-class interior room, it'll make the others feel like toys. Check out the new 2027 Kia Seltos X-Line. It's real-world ready. Kia, movement that inspires. Limited inventory available. Comparison based on publicly available data regarding cargo room and 2026 entry all-wheel drive CUVs as of May 2026. Entry all-wheel drive CUV class as defined by Kia segmentation. Some people use ChatGPT to answer questions. Others use it to get real work done. With ChatGPT Work, you bring the goal, plus real inputs like briefs, notes, files, feedback, data, and project plans.

1:48:38Adam Kempenaar:It can help turn them into an analysis, tracker, deck outline, prototype, or workflow you can review and keep shaping. You stay in control, giving direction and choosing the final output. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode. Available on Plus and Pro Plans.