Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma and The Brink of War | #1076

23:27Josh Larsen:Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? Or will you trust the people five miles overseas.

23:32Adam Kempenaar:This is a story about neighbors turning on each other and what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough.

23:41Josh Larsen:We reached for a feeling that exists in this city, but we're not stopping, are we?

23:51Adam Kempenaar:I'm Ben Nadeff-Hafri, and for my new series on revisionist history, I took a deep dive into Staten Island's attempt to secede from New York City in the 1990s, and what it all has to do with the politics of resentment that dominate America today. Listen to Revisionist History, The Staten Island Problem on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

24:20Adam Kempenaar:Well, it's that time again. Backpacks, first day of school outfits, and the low-key anxiety of Am I even doing this right? Good Mom's Bad Choices is diving into the back-to-school season the way only we know how. Unfiltered, funny, and full of the moments other shows won't touch. From surviving morning drop-offs to the guilt of missing the first bake sale. Irie told me that next season she wants to join a club team that's by your house. So I was like, so you want me to pick you up from school? I'll take her by my house. But then I have to take her there, and then I have to drive back. and then some days I'm here and I have to go pick you up at school and then bring you back.

24:59Adam Kempenaar:I was just like, hell no. This is a space where moms trade their highlight reel for the real real. Whether you're a new mom, a veteran mom, or just trying to make it to pick up on time, this season of Good Moms, Bad Choices is for you. Listen to Good Moms, Bad Choices from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything. The question is, what remains when the shaking stops? Hi, I'm Gary Valenciano, and on my podcast, Unshaken with Gary V., I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them, the lows that carried them to their highs.

25:45Adam Kempenaar:Listen to Unshaken with Gary Vee on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:15Adam Kempenaar:Advocate Elizabeth Smart.

26:17Josh Larsen:I still feel that drive that I can still make a difference. So I'm going to keep going. Celebrity chef Carla Hall.

26:22Adam Kempenaar:Was that scary to walk away from such a stable career after just two years?

26:27Josh Larsen:No, I was more afraid of being unhappy than I was broke in a dead end job that I didn't enjoy. And feminist legend Gloria Steinem. All of us were trying to express women's real lives. We need a meeting place of our own.

26:43Adam Kempenaar:And if I can contribute to that, I'd like to maintain that and leave this house for that purpose. Listen to She Pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:54Josh Larsen:I mean, this is a slasher flick that doubles as sex therapy. That's what's going on here. I don't know if there's a genre category for that, but that's absolutely what's going on. And you're right. It's, you know, Little Death, the killer in this slasher series is an early signal of that. I don't think Sean Brunn is being coy about this at all. We have repeated returns to the central sequence from the very first Camp Miasma film, which is familiar to anyone who's seen a Friday the 13th movie, which is where the young character played by Billy is having sex with an older boy. and the killer comes into the room.

27:39Josh Larsen:And we see in her eye the reflection of the killer about to strike. And so this is the key to the whole movie, but we see it multiple times. And it's, I would say, also pretty clear the first time we see it, even though it's cut before the scene ends, the correlation that Schoenbrunn is making here between sex and death, right? I mean, this movie, when we did our preview, I said it was catnip for me because in my horror book, I have a chapter, sex and death. This is a subgenre of horror. And one of the exciting things about Camp Miasma for me is how it's moving that conversation forward from Friday the 13th, even a much better movie like Halloween, even my beloved Nightmare on Elm Street, they deal in this puritanical notion of titillate the audience, but then also punish the characters so the audience can be conscience-free at the end.

28:45Josh Larsen:So it's this bizarre messed up. These are the sort of things that mess people up when they see them too young, which is something Chris actually says in the movie. What is a movie like Friday the 13th communicating? Is that sex is exciting and bad, right? And you're going to die for it. That's messed up. And so this is a movie that's moving the conversation forward. I've argued, as we did recently for Film Spotting Family members in a bonus episode, that something like It Follows from about 10 years ago similarly moved that conversation forward in an interesting way. Here we have it much more personal, though, to go to your point about Schoenbrunn's filmmaking style.

29:26Josh Larsen:This is processing the sort of, whether it's repression, whether it's personal hangups, whether it's societal pressure, whether it's moralizing that sex is supposed to be a gift and is a really messed up thing for human beings because of our frailties and all sorts of reasons, right? And so this is an entirely specific working through of a hangup that you might describe as perverse in some ways, how Chris gets to where she gets to at the end of the film. But that's because it's so personally specific. At the same time, going back to TV glow, it can be opened up to interpretation for everyone's trying to wrap their mind around what sex means for them, which is also an incredible accomplishment for this movie to be able to open itself up that wide as well.

30:25Josh Larsen:So yeah, I think I was, I was hoping this is where this movie was going to go. And it delivered on that in, in so many ways, I think to get into more specifics would reveal spoilers that we probably don't want to do. So I don't know, maybe now can we start talking about how fun the movie is? Well, I don't know. I don't know that we need,

30:50Adam Kempenaar:need to necessarily dig into this part any further, but I suppose I at least want to make my case a little more substantially and say that I only have minimal knowledge of Schoenbrunn's bio, but having now reviewed three films, you pick up on a few things over the years. And when you look at the progression of these three films, Josh, we're all going to the World's fair, you have a character who is overwhelmed by a feeling of alienation, of confusion, of unease. I believe Schoenbrunn at that point had not transitioned. With I Saw the TV Glow, which we mentioned, I said, a movie I read is attempting to reckon with having just transitioned or making that decision.

31:43Adam Kempenaar:Schoenbrunn had at that point, just gone through that. Here we are now, a few years later. For the first time, perhaps you feel like you know exactly who you are, but that doesn't mean you're fully equipped for all the experiences that now you're going to have, or that you're you're free enough to, to try things that you haven't tried before or try things that perhaps you were, you were deeply uncomfortable with previously. And are you willing to go to those scary places? How do you, how do you get to that? How do you, how do you now progress to that? So I'm already thinking about what, what Schoenbrunn's fourth film might be like, right?

32:32Adam Kempenaar:As, as Schoenbrunn starts to continue this evolution. And it brings me back to, I saw the TV glow and the intertextuality here, the way these movies connect, because in my notes, I mentioned how the character Owen, this is what I was alluding to earlier, the different self, the different points. Owen rewatches the pink opaque on streaming the pilot for the first time in years. And, and it's different than he remembered. Right. Right. Because that, that character is now different. It's not just that five years have gone by. That character has undergone a transformation. And here in this film to remember what what Chris says when she rewatches the camp miasma film for the first time, she says, I saw it like I had never seen it before.

33:28Adam Kempenaar:And there may be lots of reasons why she sees it that way. But part of that is, I think you can suggest that she maybe hadn't actually watched that first film since she was a little girl. Those flashback shots that we see of her watching when she's a little kid. And she obviously is a little girl who is not out, and she is now out as a queer woman watching it through completely different eyes. So of course she's seeing it a different way. So I think you can make potentially those parallels to Schoenbrunn's life as well. That is at least how I'm seeing the film. Now we can transition, no pun intended, into whatever fun stuff you'd like to talk about because there is so much here.

34:17Josh Larsen:I mean, you mentioned the horror references. We've just got a list, at least the ones we caught, right? We've already name-checked Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street. I think you mentioned The Shining. Yes. Videodrome, a couple of visual Videodrome touches. Sure. Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Evil Dead with all the blood spurting. Oh my gosh. Evil Dead, Evil Dead 2. That's part of the comedy, right? It's horror comedy, actually, in a lot of ways. In the actual kill scenes, Schoenbrun is pushing it towards that direction, the comedy direction. M. Night Shyamalan's The Visit. And yeah, Sunset Boulevard, sure.

34:57Josh Larsen:Let's call it a horror film. Why not? Here's the point about all those references, though, Adam. None of them are lazy. None of them are intrusive. they're just living in this movie's blood. It's almost like they have to be there. Not that Schoenbrunn wanted them there or worse, the audience expected them there. They're just embedded in what this movie is obsessing over and trying to wrap its own mind around. And so while as a horror aficionado, I love them. I think the reason I don't roll my eyes at any of them is because they're so intricately interwoven into what the movie is trying to do. And yeah, beyond the references, it's just the moment.

35:49Josh Larsen:I don't even know if I want to talk about this because it's probably going to be, and it sounds like if you're this high in the movie too, maybe a joint music moment of the year. Music moment of the year. I don't know how it gets.

36:01Adam Kempenaar:Should we save it? well we save it i i don't know let's just plant a flag and say counting crows counting crows i mean look schoenbrunn had me at counting crows once the piano started i didn't even need to see that it's that it's a one that it's one take that everything about that scene how how meticulously crafted that sequence is how how glorious that that is it's it's not only a music moment of the year it's a scene of the year candidate it's it is and and it's it's playing on so many levels josh and maybe you can help me this this gets back to what i was saying about how camp miasma is a film that i think is immediately easy to get and at the same time you can watch it 10 times and never fully get it because it is a work of of subconscious it is it is a work where You feel like the filmmaker within the film, Chris, and the filmmaker without the film, the filmmaker outside the movie is willing to put whatever is emanating from their mind, from their subconscious onto the screen and not overthink that, including some of those references, which they don't have to be.

37:17Adam Kempenaar:Maybe later they interrogate it and understand exactly where it came from. But like so many of us who do view the world through cinema, people like me who, when I hear certain words and phrases I've said before, I say them in the vernacular or in the exact same way. I pronounce it the same way as certain characters. That makes exact sense to me. but here's a sequence tell me if i'm wrong here's a sequence that uses a song from 1996 yeah non-diegetically in a movie it wouldn't have been around you're a movie that that by my guess would have been made at least 20 years earlier 15 to 20 years earlier i tried

38:08Josh Larsen:to find this out i think it's supposed to be released in 83 okay so i have this same thought

38:14Adam Kempenaar:it's 13 to 15 years earlier it's completely anachronistic it is clear to us as audience members that it's non-diegetic meaning jane schoenbrunn has decided to put place that song over the soundtrack it is not coming from the party that is happening on screen however could Nor could it be coming from the original Camp Miasma movie. That's what I'm saying. There's no way because it's anachronistic and it could not be happening in that party. However, did you notice what happens at the end of that party scene? The last shot, I believe, is a shot of a radio and I'm waiting for it. And sure enough, as soon as the radio tips and hits the floor, the song stops, which is a little tease that perhaps it is diegetic, even though we know it's not.

39:02Adam Kempenaar:and it couldn't be playing because it doesn't exist yet. Exactly. So those are the types of enigmas that you have, the myriad enigmas you have in this film. And it doesn't matter because it's just such a delight.

39:16Josh Larsen:Or it might, correct, but it also might matter to your point on a second viewing. In a way, we have to like dig into yet. I don't know if we can tease a show coming up in five months, but our rap party with these categories, scene of the year, music moment of the year, we'll get back into this because I think we have different feelings about Counting Crows Late December, the song. A long December, Josh, how dare you?

39:43Adam Kempenaar:Put some respect on Adam Duritz's name.

39:47Josh Larsen:That speaks to my point. The fact that I get the name wrong.

39:51Adam Kempenaar:I looked this up and just to be totally sure, I wanted to know this coming in because I had a feeling you were not an appreciator. Jane Schoenbrunn's not being ironic. Jane Schoenbrunn's a fan, which makes me like Jane Schoenbrunn as a filmmaker even more.

40:06Josh Larsen:Yeah, we're going to have a good conversation about this in January. Anyway, the fun thing I want to highlight beyond that amazing sequence is the opening credits. Because... Incredible. To lay out over the credits the entire life cycle of a legacy horror property that is Camp Miasma. Yes. With all of the trinkets and the lore and, you know, Miasma 3D we see came out. So the mania of the first few years, the dregs of those desperate down years when nobody cares about the franchise and then bringing us all the way up to, you know, Chris, the main character coming back to try to revive the franchise.

40:47Josh Larsen:just so brilliantly done in terms of setting the context and a ton of fun. And I have been listening today to okay. And it's new to me. So I hope I'm pronouncing this right. Okay. Kaya, who sings a cover of REM's night swimming over this.

41:06Adam Kempenaar:Yeah.

41:07Josh Larsen:Here's a point I want to raise, which we've not talked about yet. We've touched on it. Yeah. And in the comments you've made, it's, it's sort of, you know, intrinsic to it. there is such a deep vulnerability being shared in this movie. And the choice of that song to me sets the stage for it. This is a song that, you know, had, you know, meant a ton to me over the years. Isn't that fundamentally what that song's about? Being willing to be vulnerable? Absolutely. And so to choose it, but, but, you know, to choose this, okay, Kaya cover, which is one One of those covers that completes the song for a song that I revere and would never have thought I needed another version of, that just adds to it rather than just using the song itself.

42:00Josh Larsen:and to juxtapose it with these fun, entertaining elements of Camp Miasma lore, I think tells us there's something deeply personal that's going to be shared in this movie while we're going to have a ton of fun. That credit sequence is just out of this world.

42:23Adam Kempenaar:I was sure this was going to be one of my favorite films of the year at the end of the credit sequence. And then the long December sequence just cemented it for me.

42:33Josh Larsen:It's kind of like one of those instances where you're like, oh, man, just don't screw it up from here. No, you're right. You're right.

42:42Adam Kempenaar:Because it is just such good storytelling. It is, here again, so specific, so clearly made by someone who understands and loves these films and understands what's problematic about these films. and understands why they feel the way they do about these movies or is still trying to investigate why they feel the way they do about these movies. And it's done, it's rendered in such an artistic way. And to get, I didn't count the minutes, how long that song is, but to get in that three or four minute span, the entire arc of the Camp Miasma series, to cover three decades at least and have it all make perfect sense.

43:28Yeah.

43:29Adam Kempenaar:Is is really a feat. Now, I don't know if this would get you into trouble, Josh, but the song I've been listening to nonstop, I already have a long December on shuffle. But the song I've been listening to nonstop is is the tune by Andy Schaaf, Satan. I've been listening to Satan nonstop. What a great song. What a great song that is. So I want to give you a few quick hits. Did you notice who the performer is playing the DJ? oh yeah in the scene the eva victor so so great so this one might be a bit of a stretch it's either a stretch or it's completely obvious i i don't know but little death's mask i think in that opening credit sequence the the media even refers to him as air vent man air vent man yeah that's effectively what what he is he's wearing an air vent on his on his head so bizarre and and it it makes total sense going back to how you were describing the scene that we've seen in all these horror films if if a woman it's always a woman a young woman is having sex and usually as is the case here is disassociating and staring off at the ceiling they're seeing they could be seeing an air vent right so this is the the sex and death connection here so the air vent is what little death is wearing but there are times there at least two times in the movie i also thought schoenbrunn was making and this would make sense if they were was making an explicit connection between the way the air vent looks i don't know how to describe what makes an air vent look like an air vent, but everyone can picture one as I'm talking about it.

45:20Adam Kempenaar:And the lenses of a projector. Yes. How they have, right. That same shit. You see that a couple of times in the film,

45:28Josh Larsen:like a very old, almost like very old, original photos.

45:33Adam Kempenaar:Yes. Like original cameras. Yeah. You see that a couple of times in the film. I loved that connection or at least what I, what I thought was, was a connection going back to the personal journey and potentially the personal journey of a filmmaker in Hollywood. I, of a, of a trans filmmaker in Hollywood, whether it's exactly true or not, the, the touch here, because it just seems so true. It seems like it has to be true, Josh, the touch that, and I think, I think both we haven't mentioned it, but Jillian Anderson and, and Hannah Einbinder here are both fantastic.

46:11Josh Larsen:I think I'm Bender is, I don't know if we'll have time in this review. We might have to save that to go into how good she is and why.

46:18Adam Kempenaar:Yes. She, as a filmmaker describes, I think she's describing to Billy that the reason she understands that the reason she got picked to do this series is just because it's all about IP and they picked her only because. she's queer. And so that basically gives the studio some padding with the media and fans because they're reviving a misogynistic and problematic transphobic series. But all they care about is the IP. And so if they have a queer filmmaker, they can trot that out there and say, well, they're doing it for us. So they're going to set everything right. See, we know what we're doing and we're being sensitive to all of that.

47:04Adam Kempenaar:But after they do that, after they bring it back, after they revive it, they can do whatever they want with it. And the money, of course, is the objective. You have to imagine that Schoenbrunn has been approached. Offered. Has been offered something like that. And so I found that very intriguing.

47:24Josh Larsen:Chris's Zoom meeting with the studio.

47:26Adam Kempenaar:Oh, the Zoom meeting is another, is something in this film.

47:29Josh Larsen:And that's a great performance scene for Einbinder too. It is. Just like diving right into artistic delusion

47:36Adam Kempenaar:in her pitch it's so good did you notice too that that air vent imagery is something that pops up in other places like at billy's house in the background of the paintings wallpaper all of her paintings all of her paintings it's it's there the last thing i'll mention and i'm not going to say it because it's going to be a nominee for me for funniest moment of the year there is there is a scene where they're watching the original camp miasma and Hannah being the ultimate film geek when a shot occurs on screen. Oh, I know where you're going. Yeah. It's funny. Says out loud to Billy exactly what kind of shot it was.

48:22Adam Kempenaar:And I was watching it with Sophie. Oh, no. And I didn't say it out loud. Which one of you did it? Which one of you did it? So Sophie wasn't familiar with that shot after she said it. and I died laughing because I was thinking it. I paused it and Sophie said, so what's that? And I explained it to her. I said, so see how this is occurring there on screen.

48:44Josh Larsen:See, I was imagining the two of you turned to each other and like in a sitcom set it at the same time.

48:50Adam Kempenaar:No, no, it ended up being a nice teachable film moment. But I'm thinking it. I'm sure lots of film geeks are thinking it and film geeks can be annoying as hell watching movies and she's annoying as hell watching that movie in that moment. She just cannot help herself. And even better though, Josh, it's not just that she says it, it's Schoenbrunn capturing Billy's reaction to her saying it. Billy's just like, you know, just this face that couldn't be less interested in her saying that and knew it was coming too at this point. Right. Right.

49:31Josh Larsen:So nice, nice visual callback to that later in the film too.

49:36Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Is there anything else at this point we need to cover with this movie?

49:41Josh Larsen:There's a ton, there's a ton, but it sounds like we're both so enthusiastic that it's, it's going to come up again and again. I'll just say this about Einbinder. Cause I, I don't want to, you know, entirely, um, leave the performances to the wayside. It is a performance that grows in complication and revelation in a lot of ways. I guess what I would say is I had no idea. And part of this is the script, but it's also in the performance that the character I thought I knew in the first half hour is who I would come to know by the end. And I think Einbinder is absolutely due praise for the way she's able to negotiate that.

50:26Josh Larsen:While also being quite funny in a lot of scenes, as we've detailed.

50:31Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, she doesn't. Of course, it's in the writing, too. But I'm with you that there isn't ever a sense of resorting to cliche or going to caricature. Even though I just described a scene that film geeks do, the totality of that performance, she's never relying. Yeah, it's totally in character. And she's never relying on cliche. and it is a it is quite a complex performance teenage sex and death at camp miasma currently playing in limited release tell me this josh why would they go why would kids go to a camp called camp miasma didn't they look up what miasma means i looked it up it's not good what a what a great

51:11Josh Larsen:word for just sort of the filmmaking that schoenbrand does honestly um and yeah you wouldn't You would not catch me at Camp Miasma.

51:21Adam Kempenaar:No. It's currently playing in limited release. If you see it and agree or disagree with our thoughts, you can email us feedback at filmspotting.net. We may highlight these at the end of the show, Josh, but a few films worth catching on the big screen this weekend. If you have a chance and if you're a Regal Unlimited member, you just might get to see them for free, including the big release, The End of Oak Street from David Robert Mitchell. We'll talk about that next week on the show. Seems to be a bit of spectacle to that one that might lend itself to the big screen. But how about Wet Hot American Summer?

52:01Adam Kempenaar:Sure, we caught that on the theater recently, but being released for its 25th anniversary, I wouldn't mind seeing that again with an audience. And this one may be a bit of a surprising choice, Josh. I shared something about it in the film spotting slack over the weekend. We have pretty much ignored the movie one night only, but it's caused quite a stir. A stir is correct. It's very divisive. And divisive means maybe we should be talking about it. so I'm going to consider seeing it this weekend and maybe we should talk about it on a future episode again Regal Unlimited gives me the chance to see one night only for free Regal Unlimited is the all you could watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits if you sign up using code filmspot26 you get 15 % off it's the only truly limitless movie subscription pass because you can see any standard 2D movie anytime with no blackout dates or restrictions and you don't just save money on tickets you also save on snacks you get 10 off all non-alcoholic concessions sign up now in the regal app or at the link in our description and don't forget to use the code film spot 26 to receive your discount

53:28Josh Larsen:Let's take a minute to thank the FilmSpotting family, which honestly, all of you listening should join right now because you could do so for 20 % off this month. We're having a 20 % off sale on membership through August 31st. You just have to use the promo code SUMMER and you will get that deal and you can join the FilmSpotting family, which means you can be part of the biggest source of support for the show. Membership is the single largest source of support that we have. It keeps us doing what we've been doing for over 20 years. And this week we want to thank a couple of family members. They would be Stephen.

54:10Josh Larsen:Oh man. Tell me Adam, if I'm getting this one right, that's where I was going. All right. Stephen Basaccia in Milford, Connecticut. Thank you, Stephen. And we also want to, We also want to thank Stephen Sands in Coral Springs, Florida. Thank you both.

54:26Adam Kempenaar:Well, why does Sam pick two guys with the same name? I mean, messing with us as usual. Listeners can't tell that they spell Stephen differently. That's not on the page in front of them. Stephen B writes, funnily enough, the first episode I listened to was Adam and Josh diverging on the Joker. I found the discourse around the film fascinating and appreciated the way you both navigated the disagreement with humor and openness to differing perspectives. It's good we finally figured out how to do that. Did we do that? I don't know. I think we did. Yeah. I live for the year-end reviews. It's a great way to get exposed to movies that might have flown under my radar.

55:04Adam Kempenaar:Same goes for the Golden Brick Award winners and nominees. As an indie filmmaker, I love that you guys take time to highlight smaller films.

55:12Josh Larsen:Let's hear from Stephen S. have been listening since the beginning. Adam's love of all that jazz, one of my all-time favorites, kept me coming back at first, but the banter and the deep dives always remind me of my days in the theater department at Point Park University and the Pittsburgh Playhouse discussing film and performance. I enjoy seeing how often I guess what Adam's and Josh's top five picks will be and how they compare to my choices, but the one that sticks in my craw is from your top five movie meals, episode 817. how the end grilled cheese sandwich scene between Jon Favreau and Roy Choi in chef in chef was not included is a travesty.

55:54Josh Larsen:Have you seen, I haven't seen chef.

55:55Adam Kempenaar:Have you seen that? That's the thing. It's, it's tough for that to make our list when neither of us have seen it. I have only caught moments of chef on HBO here and there, but I've never, I've never been moved to watch the whole film.

56:10Josh Larsen:Can I offer a tip as an apology to Stephen S. since he seems to be a connoisseur of grilled cheese sandwiches, as am I? What's your tip? You do it in the pan, right? Like everybody does. And then when you get the bread, just golden crisp, sometimes depending on how much cheese you put in, the cheese isn't all melted through. This is why you need a toaster oven. Pop that thing in the toaster oven after grilling it for, you know, 30 seconds, a minute. It's going to be nice and gooey inside. You still have the crisp on the outside. There you go. Steven S. Do they do that in chef? Tell me if they do that.

56:47Adam Kempenaar:Probably not. Julia child here. I love it. We'll see what tips we get next week. Movies they credit with becoming cinephiles. Steven B. Strangely enough, the Stanford prison experiment. It just played at the right time when I was in college and was the right encouragement for me to want to switch my major to film. Stephen S. says, Siskel and Ebert's recommendation of Diva in 1981, the first foreign film I ever saw, made me realize there were more than just genre films to be seen.

57:14Josh Larsen:Well, thank you very much, Stephen B. and Stephen S., for your support and for listening. If you'd like to follow them both on Letterboxd, you can follow Stephen B. at B-I-S-A-C-C. Stephen S. is at Take One, the number one, Sands.

57:31Adam Kempenaar:More information about joining the FilmSpotting family is available at FilmSpottingFamily.com. You get access to our ad-free feed. You can listen to that on Apple or Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. You get our weekly newsletter, the family-only Discord. You get exclusive opportunities like being part of our 20s and 30s madness. We're trying to figure out which eight films are going to be in our super madness next year. We do know that at this point, but we don't know which film is going to be crowned champion yet of this tournament. We are down to the final four. The selection committee continues to be very good at seeding because the one, two, three, and five seeds have advanced.

58:17Adam Kempenaar:And in all fairness, it was really a toss up between the four and five seeds, which one should be for it was stagecoach or city lights and stagecoach got beat in this tournament. City lights did advance. So we've got, we've got four incredible films. And as Sam pointed out in our newsletter today, Josh, that went to film spotting family members to silence to all time silence from the twenties in Sherlock jr. And city lights chaplain and Keaton. it makes perfect sense and then you need to have both of them still i mean come on and then from the 30s we've got the wizard of oz and m it's a great final four can't wait to see how it turns out and we also have august blind spotting ahead three films that all three of us including producer sam haven't seen one from scorsese one from vim vendors one from kiyoshi kurosawa these are the things you get to decide as part of the film spotting family.

59:18Adam Kempenaar:You pick the movie we have to watch and talk about, and that will come to you later this month. Again, the promo code is summer and you can sign up at filmspottingfamily.com. President Reagan, you got us here, sir. You got the Russians to the table. Gorbachev came to play. But if we fail here, there will be war.

59:48Josh Larsen:In wide release this weekend, The Brink of War. This is set during the 1986 Reykjavik summit between U.S. President Ronald Reagan and Russian President Mikhail Gorbachev. Jeff Daniels plays Reagan and Jared Harris plays Gorbachev. J.K. Simmons and Hope Davis are also in the cast. now adam we weren't quite teens when this took place but that phrase rekuvik summit sounds vaguely familiar certainly we remember reagan obviously gorbachev as well what does the movie have to offer on this 40 year old event and any sense of why now why this story now

1:00:32Adam Kempenaar:there's definitely a sense of why now there's a fair amount of timeliness i don't remember anything about this event as it was happening in the the present day back in the mid-80s we were both fairly young at the time i do or i did have a fair bit of backstory and knowledge going into this movie though because i had watched just like a year ago a documentary about a documentary just about this summit. And I swear to you, I tried to find information about this. I watched it as a screener, I think, or I thought it was a Sundance movie, but I can't find it. I cannot find the name of this film. I talked about it on the show briefly.

1:01:18Adam Kempenaar:I thought it was uneven, but it was fascinating because it got in just to the minutia of this film, like taking all of the papers everything that had been transcribed how this whole thing came together so i i had some of the the backstory here going into watching this movie it's an on-the-nose peon to good old boy diplomacy that's nevertheless enjoyable and worth heeding that's the the timeliness that's part of At one point, George Schultz, who's played by J.K. Simmons, he's the secretary of state to Reagan. He and Reagan are having a conversation. I think at this point, they've just made what they think is really significant progress towards arms reduction.

1:02:05Adam Kempenaar:And Reagan quotes something that Margaret Thatcher told him. everything in the world is settled by two lads in a pint and the movie does want to i think put forth this notion the the writer director michael russell gun wants us wants us to consider that despite our differences and reagan and gorbachev as depicted in the movie couldn't have more divergent worldviews the writer director wants to suggest that everything could be solved or certainly the first domino could fall if we could just engage with a dialogue with each other. Can't we just get in a room with each other and have a beer and have a conversation?

1:02:52Adam Kempenaar:And that sentiment isn't lost on me as evident as it may be and as cynical as I am. There is some other resonance too, Josh. I don't know if you've noticed that all of a sudden the terms communist and socialist are being thrown around again as a threat to the American way, a threat to liberty. And I hope actually that everyone who's using those terms and who feels that way. I hope they see this movie and they might because Republicans worship Reagan, as you know. And I think this movie does, too, because here's here's the most antiquated thing about it. One of the or what feels antiquated, one of the sticking points in the negotiations, and this is true because I know this from the documentary, is that Reagan kept insisting on bringing up to Gorbachev.

1:03:48Adam Kempenaar:russia's human rights violations and his justification at least here according to this screenplay and a lot of it was supposedly based off of george schultz's actual records was he says to gorbachev at one point actually two points he says the same thing we are a nation of immigrants he's emphasizing how america is made up of immigrants and one-eighth i think is the number he uses, one eighth of our country has ties to Russia. So this is important to him, that Russia doesn't treat its people better, that the people don't enjoy the freedoms that Americans enjoy under a democracy. I wonder how that sentiment would sit with some viewers watching it today.

1:04:40Adam Kempenaar:It's effectively a two-hander. It's mostly comprised of conversations between Daniels and Jared Harris as Gorbachev on opposite sides of a table in this cramped room in Reykjavik. And of course, they're both very capable actors. Daniels, he doesn't really go for a Reagan impression, I'd say. He only slips into the Reagan accent or the affect that we all know when he says, well, which is the word we all think of when we think of doing a Reagan impression. he'll say well and it sounds just like that impression otherwise he just plays reagan as someone who's extremely calm seems like the definition of a leader he's always on the offensive he's exceptionally strategically minded harris is fundamentally decent but but has this russian bluster to him and he gets he gets more emotional it it breaks the monotony with calls, gets us out of that room when they take breaks with calls to Nancy Reagan, who's played by Hope Davis.

1:05:48Adam Kempenaar:She stayed back in Washington and scenes with Ryza Gorbachev, who came with Gorbachev, and she's doing some sightseeing. And that quickly becomes its own battle between the two women, despite the fact that Nancy is, as I said, back at the White House. And it actually does have a clever payoff. the CIA and KGB are down in the basement and that their little fights their squabbles are meant to be amusing they they aren't really the film as I said I think it it does really worship Reagan and why I say that is because not only in in its portrayal but there's a point early on where he's talking about why they're even there and what the goal of the conversations are and he's talking about threats of fascism and communism and the music starts to starts to build behind him josh and and then he's saying he's he's talking to his his small team that's there and he says if i wrote this down if we fail if i fail i will be just a warmonger that's the absolute opposite of our goal now that sentiment or that idea may be completely accurate that's not what i'm taking issue with a lot of the dialogue feels like it was written with the benefit of hindsight it doesn't it feels like movie dialogue it does not feel like it does not feel like anybody in the room in that room like i would imagine them actually speaking to each other they're making pronouncements they're making these these declarations to each other it tries to humanize reagan by showing him having these nightmares because he got shot, you know, the attempted assassination by Hinckley, even though that happened five years earlier.

1:07:36Adam Kempenaar:Yes, I can understand there may be some trauma still, of course, because of that. At one point, too, Schultz is with him in his room, and Reagan is changing his shirt. And the camera keeps, like it's from Schultz's point of view, focusing on reagan's stomach it feels completely random and josh i think the point is is that schultz is noticing his wounds or something ah but it it happens so quickly they're they're flashes it it's bizarre it's bizarre more than anything else you don't really understand why why schultz is looking at the president's bare bare body or why we as audience members are are being drawn to look there okay to look there either but look if you if you like watching intense situations where people are trying to use whatever leverage they have against each other and i i do generally then then this movie will work especially when the entire fate of the world is at stake and And it does remind us, I suppose, of a time when diplomacy actually seemed possible and having a leader who could think strategically seemed possible and having a leader who actually read the binders seemed possible.

1:08:56Adam Kempenaar:And someone who acted out of thought of legacy and safety for the American people. So that's partly why I'm positive enough on the brink of war, which is out now in limited room. understand that. Actually, wide release, The Brink of War. I think I said limited release. If you do get a chance to see that movie, I would love to hear your thoughts. 30 years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City.

1:09:27Josh Larsen:Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? Or you trust the people five miles overseas?

1:09:32Adam Kempenaar:This is a story about neighbors turning on each other. And what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough.

1:09:42Josh Larsen:We reached for a feeling that exists in this city, but we're not stopping, are we?

1:09:51Adam Kempenaar:I'm Ben Nadeff-Haffrey, and for my new series on revisionist history, I took a deep dive into Staten Island's attempt to secede from New York City in the 1990s and what it all has to do with the politics of resentment that dominate America today. Listen to Revisionist History, The Staten Island Problem, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:10:36Adam Kempenaar:other shows won't touch. From surviving morning drop-offs to the guilt of missing the first bake sale. Irie told me that next season she wants to join a club team that's by your house. So I was like, so you want me to pick you up from school? I'll take her by my house. But then I have to take her there and then I have to drive back. And then some days I'm here and I have to go pick you up at school and then bring you back. I was just like, hell no. This is a space where moms trade their highlight reel for the real real. Whether you're a new mom, a veteran mom, or just trying to make it to pick up on time, this season of Good Moms, Bad Choices is for you.

1:11:12Adam Kempenaar:Listen to Good Moms, Bad Choices from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything. The question is, what remains when the shaking stops? Hi, I'm Gary Valenciano, and on my podcast, Unshaken with Gary V., I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them, the lows that carried them to their highs. Listen to Unshaken with Gary V. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:11:54Josh Larsen:That call was really pivotal for me. Hey, it's Emily Tisch-Sussman.

1:11:57Adam Kempenaar:And this season on She Pivots, the podcast where women share bold career moves and personal turning points that changed everything. I sit down with culture-shifting women who share their pivots, like Paralympian Allie Truitt. I was like, I'm a month out from a shark attack. There's no way in 11 months I'm making the Paralympics. Advocate Elizabeth Smart.

1:12:17Josh Larsen:I still feel that drive that I can still make a difference. So I'm going to keep going. Celebrity chef Carla Hall.

1:12:22Adam Kempenaar:Was that scary to walk away from such a stable career after just two years?

1:12:27Josh Larsen:No, I was more afraid of being unhappy than I was broke in a dead-end job that I didn't enjoy. And feminist legend Gloria Steinem. All of us were trying to express women's real lives. We need a meeting place of our own. And if I can contribute to that, I'd like to maintain that

1:12:46Adam Kempenaar:and leave this house for that purpose. Listen to She Pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:12:56Josh Larsen:It was my dream. Sometimes to do what's right, we have to be steady and give up the thing we want the most. Even our dreams.

1:13:09Adam Kempenaar:It's time for some poll results. A couple of weeks ago, we asked you to choose one and only one Spider-Man movie. Your options in chronological order were Spider-Man from 2002, Spider-Man 2, Spider-Man Homecoming, Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse, Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse, or if you thought we left one of the Spider-Man movies out that you prefer, you could write in other.

1:13:37Josh Larsen:Josh, how did it come out? I think Sam did okay here. Other was in last place with 4%. Then came Spider-Man Homecoming, the 2017 film with 5 % of the vote. a jump up to 11 % of the vote that went to Spider-Man from 2002, 15 % of the vote went to Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse. And then it came down pretty much to these two in second place was Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse 32.60%. How do you say this? Six zero, 32.6. Yeah. 32.6. All right. I don't get into math. This one's once the decimals are involved. I'm out. first place went to spider-man 2 from 2004 33.3 let's call it that when we're getting into decimal

1:14:26Adam Kempenaar:points that's that's an indication yes of just how close it was and validation here we thought that into the spider-verse and spider-man 2 would compete for the top spot that's why we picked them for our movie deathmatch episode a couple of mondays ago and here they are so close together And Josh, the thing is, Sam just picks that as he's putting these pages together for us earlier here the day we're recording. But the poll hadn't closed. So while you were going through the results, I decided to go and see where it stood this minute. If any other votes had come in, usually, of course, nothing has changed because there's enough distance between the candidates here.

1:15:12Adam Kempenaar:I am not kidding you. I just closed it officially. it flip-flopped it did not flip-flop but it is now 33.09 percent to 33.09 percent we have a time what are we gonna do i don't know has it has this happened they both get to be saved they both get to be free of the incinerator yeah i like that yeah it's it's perfect here's here's aaron spider man 2 is not only the best spider man movie it is still the greatest comic book movie ever made There have been a few that came close to topping it, but none quite bested it.

1:15:49Josh Larsen:All right. Here's Jason. I've played by the rules through every film spotting madness and respected the rules of the incinerator. My vote is for Spider-Man 2, but you will not take into the Spider-Verse away from me. A copy will be hidden away where the film spotting enforcers will never find it. Jason, you're lucky.

1:16:09Adam Kempenaar:Here's Henry. I would have automatically gone with Spider-Man 2, but hearing Josh and Adam's conversation actually swayed me back to the first Spider-Man, a movie I must have seen a hundred times since I was five years old. So many iconic images and moments without which we never would have gotten any of these other great films. There you go, Henry. Yeah, everyone who voted in that poll and who left a comment. The new deeply flawed film spotting poll is inspired by Jane Schoenbrunn and their latest, Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma. As we said, it is Schoenbrunn's third feature. on a really good run so far that got us thinking what other third features have we gotten this decade how do they compare to shown runs and i'm going to say right off the bat that it's it's a really flawed poll because sam just just can't help himself with options with other we have what eight choices here he never wants to leave people out i get it he's he's such a nice guy.

1:17:08Adam Kempenaar:So let's, let's get into him, Josh. What are the choices?

1:17:13Josh Larsen:In Sam's defense? I think, I know there was some last minute conversation about one of these options. I think we kind of needed all of the ones he proposed to. They're all of a piece as they all feel pretty good. They feel like they're, they came about in roughly the same time, built their careers the same way. And we feel equally, here's what I'd say. We felt equally excited about their third feature when it was coming out. So Greta Gerwig's Barbie, previous to that, obviously Lady Bird and Little Women. Ari Aster's Bow is Afraid, previous to that, Hereditary and Midsommar. Brady Corbett's The Brutalist.

1:17:56Josh Larsen:This is the one that was added last minute. I don't know. Were we that excited about Brady Corbett's next film? Maybe. Some people were. Maybe they weren't. Previous to that, you may need to be reminded. the childhood of a leader in Vox Lux. Olivia Wilde's The Invite, Booksmart, Don't Worry Darling. I was probably the only one very excited about her third feature based on the general reception of Don't Worry Darling. Chloe Zhao's Nomadland, before that, Chloe Zhao had made Songs My Brother Taught Me and The Rider. Jordan Peele's Note, nope, obviously, preceded that with Get Out and Us, and Robert Eggers' The Northman, before that came The Witch and The Lighthouse.

1:18:36Josh Larsen:So your choices basically are Barbie, Bo is afraid the brutalist, the invite, no bad land. Nope. Or the Northman.

1:18:47Adam Kempenaar:Indeed. Those are the choices. It is about the third film. It isn't about the promise of the filmmakers. It's not about the filmmakers at all. So are you now waiting? Are you awaiting me to choose Josh?

1:19:00Josh Larsen:Out of those films? Yeah. Yeah. I have a winner. Okay. I do have a winner. I don't yet. So go ahead. You share yours first.

1:19:12Adam Kempenaar:Well, my favorite filmmaker there, not my choice, obviously, is Greta Gerwig because Greta Gerwig made my two favorite films that are on the list, and they are Lady Bird and Little Women. But they're not Barbie, so that's not going to be my choice. Brady, I think it's Corbet. I'm trying to remember. I know I was trying to remember the correct pronunciation. Brady Corbett is the one that doesn't feel like he completely belongs because I haven't seen those two previous films. I'm going to be totally honest and admit I haven't even heard of the film The Childhood of a Leader. I don't think anyone or I'm not going to say anyone.

1:19:59Adam Kempenaar:That's absurd. I wasn't anticipating The Brutalist when it when it came out and it played at the Chicago Film Festival. That was the first time I had heard of it. So I was definitely not anticipating it. However, it is my favorite film on this list before Brady Corbet and The Brutalist got added. Nope, was my choice. but the brutalist is my favorite film and it's, it's not really close. So that's an easy one. That's an easy one for me. Now, if you dipped into other territory, I could consider Todd Fields tar, give me movies about temperamental artists, apparently. And I also do love in the bedroom and little children, but I'm going, I'm going on the list.

1:20:42Adam Kempenaar:I'm sticking to the list. I'm going to brutalist. So for me, from the list,

1:20:49Josh Larsen:it comes down to Barbie, the invite or Nope. And I feel like Nope, I need one more viewing to really get a sense of how it would compete about those others. And I somewhat feel the same with the invite. I'm riding very high on that right now, but haven't had a chance to see it again. So I think I'm going to go with the movie. I know best. And that is Barbie. Barbie's my vote.

1:21:21Adam Kempenaar:A vote for Barbie, a vote for the brutalist. We would love your vote. We would love to hear an explanation for your vote. We might even feature your comments on an upcoming show. And of course there are options for other, if you'd like to write them in, you can make the case for Todd Fields tar instead. Didn't, didn't feel to Sam. And I suppose to all three of us, like they quite fit in with the rest of the gang. Charlie Kaufman's I'm Thinking of Ending Things. Eliza Hitman, Never Rarely, Sometimes Always. Kajillionaire, the third film from Miranda July. Are there defenders out there for Alex Garland's men?

1:21:58Adam Kempenaar:I don't know. Wouldn't be. I liked mine quite a bit. Did you? Yes. We did discuss that film. I didn't remember us having a strong disagreement about it. I was definitely very mixed on that film. Maybe I didn't review it with you. It's possible.

1:22:13Josh Larsen:I feel like all of those, they just, they feel of a different group of filmmakers. Like is, is Todd Fields going to make, is his next movie 10 years from now? Maybe, I don't know. Maybe as something coming out this fall, but it just, I feel like the group Sam landed on for the most part are filmmakers who came up around the same time and we're going to be following for a long time as a group. So that feels right to me.

1:22:46Adam Kempenaar:874 was the episode. That was the episode you debuted, the Garland Scale. So we did discuss men together. Who could ever forget? Who could forget? You can vote once again and leave a comment at filmspotting.net. The link and the poll are right there on the main page. We will share the results in a couple of weeks. Josh, that is our show.

1:23:09Josh Larsen:If you want to connect with us on social media, you can find Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, YouTube, and Blue Sky at FilmSpotting. You'll find me at Larson on Film. We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the FilmSpotting family at FilmSpottingFamily.com. You can listen early and ad-free. You'll also get monthly bonus episodes, a weekly newsletter, and access to the entire show archive. you'll get all of that for 20 % off through the month of August. Just use promo code summer for show t-shirts and other merch. Go to film spotting.net slash shop.

1:23:46Josh Larsen:How about this,

1:23:47Adam Kempenaar:Josh in limited release completely off our radar. I feel like we're saying this more and more the rivals of Amzia King. This is director Andrew Patterson, his follow-up to 2020 golden brick nominee, the vast of night, such an interesting film. and it's got Matthew McConaughey in it. It's got Kurt Russell in it. Yeah. McConaughey is the title character, a beekeeper who reunites with his former foster daughter. It premiered back at the 2025 South by Southwest. Our friend Mitchell Beaupre says it's a shape-shifting, soul-stirring, sonically sumptuous delight. That's a lot of S's. Well done, Mitchell Beaupre.

1:24:28Adam Kempenaar:Also out is Wet Hot American Summer. Played Film Spotting Fest. Now it's being re-released. on the occasion of its 25th anniversary. Go enjoy that with an audience. In wide release, Nimrod's three friends journey from Kansas City to LA, mistakenly believing their band is opening for Green Day on New Year's Eve. That happened to your band, right? Yeah, something just like that. The Wrong Girls is also about Kristen Stewart and Aaliyah Shokat, our stoner best friends who get caught up in a case of mistaken identity. I think we were all waiting for a stoner comedy from Kristen Stewart.

1:25:05Josh Larsen:I mean, Aaliyah Shaka, that's a pretty good duo, actually. This sounds kind of good.

1:25:12Adam Kempenaar:The Brink of War is out and David Robert Mitchell's The End of Oak Street. Big week in the film spotting feed. We will close out on Sunday, our Dissident Cinema Marathon with our awards. On Monday, another episode of The Movie Racket with Michael Phillips. A lot of talk of adaptations in the news lately, of course, with The Odyssey. So this show will be all about that. The movie laws of book-to-film adaptations with David Kajanek, who adapted. He's a screenwriter who adapted three films for Luca Guadagnino, including Suspiria. On Tuesday, FilmSpotting SVU has the latest from Louis Leterrier, The Last House.

1:25:53And I'm very eager to see this one now, Josh, just based on the cast. Greta Lee, Wagner Mora.

1:26:02Adam Kempenaar:Not bad. Pretty good pairing. On Thursday, part two of the next picture show's pairing, which is Pixar's Ratatouille and Anthony Bourdain's Tony. And finally, on Friday, the film spotting mothership. You'll have a review of Tony. I can't see it for another couple of weeks yet, unfortunately. very excited to. And you plan to share a few thoughts on Tony because you have already had the pleasure of seeing that film.

1:26:31Josh Larsen:I've seen it. Interesting film. I'll share more later. Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Diso and Sam Van Hogren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:26:55Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

1:27:11Adam Kempenaar:John Deere is putting in work and putting up highlights. Oh man, look at those passes. Tillage, planting, harvesting. Three years in, and these pre-owned machines are still at the top of their game. We're talking reliability, performance, and long-term potential. And get this, these veteran machines can pick up the latest precision tech with ease. You know it, and fans ready to add John Deere certified pre-owned equipment and more options to their lineup can shop at machinefinder.com. Booyah! 30 years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City.

1:27:45Josh Larsen:Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? or you trust the people five miles overseas?

1:27:50Adam Kempenaar:This is a story about neighbors turning on each other and what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough.

1:27:58Josh Larsen:But we're not stopping, are we?

1:28:02Adam Kempenaar:Listen to Revisionist History, The Staten Island Problem on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. New school year, same beautiful mess. Good Moms Bad Choices is back to talk back-to-school realness. The guilt, the giggles, and the choices no other show is brave enough to admit. Mom life is calling and I have my last motherfucking volleyball tournament of Irie's Club Team Volleyball and I can't wait for the thing to be over because I don't like participating and having to drive far distances. Shout out to the moms and my mom who made it happen. Listen to Good Mom's Bad Choices from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:28:50Adam Kempenaar:I am talking to a felon right now with face tattoos, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. That was a caller from my podcast, Therapy Gecko, where I speak with anonymous callers about their problems, relationships, and anything else in the depths of their mind. It all happens on my show, Therapy Gecko. So if you're trying to get out of your own head and into someone else's, this is the podcast for you. Listen to Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.