The Tree of Life at 15: Malick’s Cosmic Masterpiece Revisited | #1064

16:46Josh Larsen:Adam, I think I may have tricked or found a way to get Debbie to come with me to a horror movie, horror, not always her thing. I love it. But the other day she just said, we were looking at movies we might want to go check out. Maybe I want to see this hokum. Do you want to see hokum? and I thought well of course I do it's a horror movie and and so I didn't say much more yeah we'll have to try to find time for that looking into it I see why I Adam Scott is the star okay so already I know she's she's in for that he plays a horror writer visiting an Irish inn to scatter his parents ashes um unaware the property's haunted okay we visited last fall Ireland I can see some of the connection there.

17:32Josh Larsen:So I think I might be able to get her to go to this with me.

17:37Adam Kempenaar:Does she know that he's a bearded Adam Scott? Is she okay with that, apparently?

17:43Josh Larsen:I think, oh, that's a great question. In general, that's a pro. In general, that's a pro. With him, I'm not so sure. So I'm not going to bring that up in case it throws off our plans. And I'll just report back on that later. Sounds good. Hokum might be our next theater movie together. And with Regal Unlimited, it could be our next free movie together because Regal Unlimited allows you to see recent releases for free. It's the all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. Right now, Regal is offering film spotting listeners endless movies for less. Sign up for Regal Unlimited right now using code FILMSPOT26 and you're going to get 15 % off.

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19:02Adam Kempenaar:By the time I get to my choice of moment, it's going to seem like I'm trying to one up you because you you revealed this this dark, shady moment from your past. Of course, of course, it's not that actually, but, you know, you really shady at all. You admitted to something that every one of us boys experienced at some point in our junior high lives. And I'm going to go for something that's hopefully or I won't even say hopefully. It just is much more touching from my adult life. So I'm going to go ahead. And I was probably going to get to this later. And I'll just admit to it off the bat here. there's there's way too much of myself that i see in mr o 'brien and brad pitt's character now we don't have we don't have dinner scenes quite of the nature that we have in this movie but i still see too much of myself in him and i'll admit to that and one of the ways i see myself in him is is what i see as a son not a father and talk about devastating lines this is one of those lines that i actually think it might as well just be you might as well just put this on on too many men's epitaphs as their epitaph on their tombstone i think it's the lament of the american male i never got a chance to tell him how sorry i was way way too many way too many men i know that ends up being something they utter in some form at some point in their lives.

20:38Adam Kempenaar:So I'll get to the moment I'd planned to say was my Madelaine moment. And I want to thank Jake Cole, of course. I'm glad I saw that. I'm glad I was able to have that as a foundation for my intro. I really want to thank Proust and not just for giving me fodder for an intro, but for giving us the language to talk about the tree of life. because I think that, I mean, honestly, I think that the imagery Malick offers and the ineffable that he tries to invoke with it and the types of quandaries, the existential quandaries and moral dilemmas that you're expressing that he is challenging, he's challenging himself, that he is exploring in this film.

21:24Adam Kempenaar:I think you're almost required to use language that transcends the quotidian. And unfortunately, Proust, I am not. I am but a mere mortal who feels mostly mediocre and accidental and all the tea and cake in the world isn't going to change that. So we're just going to do our best here throughout this conversation. I think the entire the entire innocent sequence, at least that's what it's called on the DVD. And it it makes sense. I think watching it, we all understand that's exactly what it is. That entire innocent sequence is that follows creation is one of the most sublime extended sequences in cinema.

22:06Adam Kempenaar:And I know there are some people listening right now who are waiting to write in. I do look forward to reading your emails. We read them the first time we reviewed The Tree of Life, who think that our love and others' love for this film was a little overblown. you can't believe I'm talking about Proust and needing a language to talk about this movie talking about this sequence is one of the most sublime extended sequences in cinema I'm just telling you that's how I felt that's how I felt watching it the first time I feel even more strongly about it now I for the two hours and 18 minutes of runtime I was in some combination of complete awe and almost on the verge of tears pretty much the entire runtime with this film that's just how it works on me and it's part of its power is that it's working on this innocent sequence is that it's working on one level.

23:00Adam Kempenaar:It's functioning narratively. It is functioning narratively within the context of the story itself. Yes, there is a narrative here. I may not have even fully seen it the first time, but one of the benefits of watching a movie like this or any movie a second time is you can actually see how it fits. And even for Malick, maybe he got away from it post the tree of life. But here, there is actually a pretty clear structure, clearer than I remembered. But this Proustian thing, this sense memory of childhood, is so visceral. Playing with your siblings, playing with the other kids in the neighborhood, the bad, the quote-unquote bad elements too, though.

23:43Adam Kempenaar:And part of those bad elements are also, within your family, the sense of... Conflict, confrontations that you may have, becoming disillusioned with a parent or parents, perhaps, as you grow older, right, and questioning them. And the point I'm going for here, Josh, is that it's not just that watching it, that I or maybe others relate to it. You say, oh, that seems accurate. Boy, didn't Malik capture that. No, I'm saying that going back to Proust, because of the imagery, because of the editing, because of the score, because of the specificity of it all, that all conspires to provoke in me or give me that same psycho-physio reaction as tasting or smelling something from my childhood.

24:41Adam Kempenaar:that brings it all back or erupts something inside of me. And so I'm going to give you a moment, but I also want to say one other aspect of this, which is, and I talked about this a little bit with sentimental value, another aspect of this innocent sequence is that Malik takes this house and he expands it to the whole yard. The way you understand this whole setting and the way we feel about place And the way I think I know I'm not the only one in my family, and I don't think I'm the only one probably listening to this who who can romanticize and nostalgicize a place from our past. the first place you grew up in and the way we attach meaning to it, whether it's even accurate, fully accurate or not, we are placing a nostalgic glow on it.

25:37Adam Kempenaar:But I think we look at the place we grew up in, especially if we did move away at some point, maybe when we were in fourth or fifth grade, We see those early years as this place of innocence. And that's how I feel, Josh, so strongly. I have mentioned this once or twice over the years on the show, but the first house I grew up in and my sister, you know, I have four younger sisters, but the one directly below me, we, we grew up in this house. mostly. The one after Melissa was just a baby in that house. And we know that house. And you move out of it and you think, oh, I can't wait to get out of this house.

26:16Adam Kempenaar:It's old and kind of crappy, and we're going to move into a better house across town. And then something happens when you get to college and you start thinking about that house. And I'd really love to go back into that house and see my old bedroom and have those memories. And you do. And then you forget about it for a while. And then you have kids and you go, wow, I'd really like to go back into my old house and see what that's like in my old house. And now I swear to you just about a month ago, my sister Melissa sent me, sent me the Zillow listing. Our house, our house is up for sale and she wants, she wants to buy it.

26:56Adam Kempenaar:Now we have no reason to buy this house. I don't have a bunch of extra money floating around to buy this house. It is in terrible shape. It will cost just as much to renovate it. Don't do it as it would cost to buy it. Don't do it. I don't have a reason to live in this house nor to rent it out to anybody. And yet the the the feeling the hold that house has over us is so strong that I'll tell you at least she's not kidding. She was really thinking about it and she probably could have convinced me to at least be part of it that that's how strong that that feeling is so yeah it it it it's something that that this film somehow malik is portraying on screen the feeling i just really poorly tried to express it's all there in imagery on the screen and so i'll just say that if i had to pick a moment my madeleine moment is when it's not a childhood moment it's more of an adulthood moment and it's when toddler jack walks over to the crib to see baby rl his baby brother for the first time and you can throw in those ensuing moments on the out on the lawn too where the examination of his brother continues there are just no better moments as parents than when you're introducing your kids to their siblings for the first time, watching them pick up their hands, touch their feet, smile at them, study them.

28:34Adam Kempenaar:Occasionally they get angry with them, like happens here in the movie. And the mom has to say, no, don't do that. They get too rough with them.

28:42Josh Larsen:How about that in terms of had to be unplanned? I mean, you're working with a toddler and then, you know, Chastain is really reprimanding that kid, right? Because doesn't he threaten to hit him with a toy truck or something?

28:56Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, but that happens. Your kids do that.

28:58Josh Larsen:It happens and it's connected, Adam. It's connected to what we were talking about. Yeah. Well, what were you going to say? Connected to? It's connected to this. It goes to like everything you described is absolutely correct because it's so personal. It's so relatable. But the miracle of this movie, because there have been others that do something, maybe not quite to this exquisite filmmaking degree, but they do something similar. bring you back to your childhood in a distinct way. This movie connects it to the cosmic. And it's in little touches like that where we suddenly connect. Is that like original sin in that kid that he wants to throw this truck at it?

29:36Josh Larsen:And it's like before this toddler can even process why he's doing something he shouldn't do, it's making us think about those questions. Yeah, you're right. And all unplanned, right?

29:46Adam Kempenaar:Like Malick couldn't stage that. Because that kid, though, as a kid doesn't have a choice really in it. So that's where you're going with original sin. And just even even the the way it's shot, there's a certain eerie is not the right word, but it's so striking because the first part of the innocent sequence has ended all the nonlinear stuff, all of the the the swooning camera, the the music, it's all been scored. It's now silent. All we're hearing is the outside world, you know, the crickets and the birds and nature. And it's just that shot of the crib isolated against the window. And then all of a sudden, toddler Jack just comes walking into the frame as if he's coming in to kind of explore and see what that thing is over by the window.

30:35Adam Kempenaar:And that that grabs you. And then maybe this is a reach. Maybe it is. But for me, what it also harkens back to is that image from creation of the dinosaurs of the of the creek, because it feels to me exact. It feels to me exactly like that moment where, and I know it's not a one-to-one comparison, but it feels to me the same as the little dinosaur lying down, right? And the big one coming towards it to investigate. And you don't know what that big one thinks of the little one. You don't know if the big one is going to hurt it or if the big one is going to help it. You don't know how it's going to regard it in that moment.

31:23Adam Kempenaar:That's how I feel about Jack is the dinosaur walking towards the helpless dinosaur in the crib.

31:31Josh Larsen:That sequence, which I know people joke about, I think is also connected to this notion of why is there good and evil in the world? Because that bigger dinosaur puts its claw on the other's head and pushes it down. Right. With the sadism of a human, there's no Darwinian reason to do that. You either kill something to eat it or you move along. So there's something so provocative to me going on in that dinosaur sequence. And it's never struck me as funny. I mean, it seems like it's completely in threat of creation. We're following history here. Of course, there's going to be dinosaurs at some point.

32:16And then to throw in that moment of sadism paused, mercy granted.

32:24Josh Larsen:Yes. And the dinosaur goes on. It's just like, yeah, the way he's connecting all these things to this one family's experience and life is what I think is the true miracle of the tree of life. Is that it's all works together. That you can drop this massive creation sequence in the movie. and it to me it doesn't feel out of nowhere at all it feels like it was necessary at least not

32:50Adam Kempenaar:the second time you watched the film i i remember sitting in the theater kind of knowing it was coming kind of knowing it was coming because the lore of the film around it right already even just going in you knew there was a 20 minute or whatever creation sequence it it certainly i'm not going to deny that the first time i saw the film it felt more disjointed than it did this time now i do see how it all fits together Josh including including the fact that the movie really is I mean if you just want to understand what the movie is I actually feel a little bit silly now thinking about it because the movie starts with a quote from Job and we have creation sequences and innocence sequences and it's called the tree of life he really has just taken Job and Genesis and I mean you're this is I'm on your corner here so I'll turn it over to you but but he you're good he truly has I mean I studied I studied the Hebrew Bible back in college you know myself but it's been a while but he he's he's taken Job it starts with that quote 10 minutes in you have you hear Chastain saying after the news Lord where were you Lord where were you You have you have after the boy dies from drowning.

34:13Adam Kempenaar:You have young Jack asking, was he bad? And you let a boy die. He says to God, you let a boy boy die. Why should I be good if you aren't good? Yeah. He protests to God. Right. And this this happens. There are lines like that. Sequences like that where this is a this movie. This is a movie that is about suffering from start to finish. It is about suffering, which is what Job's about. And it is about questioning God in the face of that suffering and trying to come to terms with that. At the same time, if you're questioning God and you're trying to come to terms with that, that means that you're imbued with some knowledge or you're taking the risk of that knowledge, the grace versus nature.

35:03Adam Kempenaar:And so you get Genesis. you get for a while we can live together we can live we can live in eden for a while but then at some point when you like jack start pushing back or questioning god which on earth his emissary is dad father don't call him dad you have to call him father that's when things start that's when things get very uneasy in that house, right? So it surprised me, Josh, to the extent to which the movie, for all of its non-linearness, and it is a non-linear story decidedly, how linear it actually progresses.

35:45Josh Larsen:It maps onto the book of Job just astonishingly perfectly in a lot of ways. And that was the revelation in this most recent viewing because I was doing it within the context of one of the courses in my Theology in the Arts program I'm in right now, it was paired in a unit on the book of Job and opens with it, as you said, a line from Job, so it makes sense. But it made me look at it specifically through that lens. And it's almost like every character in this family is a Job figure in some way, because they are each suffering in different ways, and they're each questioning God in different ways.

36:28Josh Larsen:And you said it about as well as I could, you hit the things that are important and that jump out is the way that the mother even demands answers. And it does come after creation. I think the one thing I'd add is, one thing I'd love about the book of Job, and I would say it and Genesis are the most fascinating to me in the Bible because they seem to hold both all the answers and all the mysteries that you'll never get the answer to at once. And for me here, part of that is you get an answer in Job from God, Job gets his answer, and it's what Malik begins his movie with. Where were you when I laid the foundations on the earth.

37:19Josh Larsen:So it's this thundering, humbling, you want to know all these big questions? And there's silence through a lot of Job until finally we get this response, which is, where were you? You couldn't even comprehend the answer if I gave them to you. Sort of this complete humbling experience. Now, there are a couple of ways to respond to that. And you have of a movie like the other Book of Job adaptation we both love, The Coen Brothers' A Serious Man, which is a little bit of a different response to that sort of questioning, I would say, a little bit more cynical, perhaps. But here, the Tree of Life registered to me in this most recent watch as if you focus on the adult Jack, so Sean Penn's character, it did strike me ultimately, which the Book of Job is, as one man's renewal of faith, even amidst a world where evil holds sway and can't be explained.

38:22Josh Larsen:But particularly, and this ties to our discussion of memories, Adam, with The Tree of Life, I think he regains his faith through the witness of his mother, Jessica Chastain, and his brother, who he lost, as he remembers them. So this entire movie can be seen as Sean Penn's character recognizing, reliving that loss of his brother and starting to actually think about some of these memories that he had, um, maybe been buried for so long. And you can see, you know, there are glimpses, there are glimpses of hope breaking into this movie with the adult Jack. You can see, even when he's in his office, his modern office building, he looks up at the sky through those glass windows.

39:10Josh Larsen:There's a tree of life in the courtyard there amidst all that metal and glass. And of course, we have the direct instances of it in those heavenly landscape scenes on the beach, which the movie peppers itself with. And I think that sequence, the beach reunion sequence, I think after that is when the elevator brings the adult Jack back down, literally, to earth from where he is having that experience higher in the building. And so I was thinking this time, like, what is that beach sequence? Is that it could be heaven actualized. We see all these people from his life. It could be heaven foreshadowed.

39:52Josh Larsen:It could be heaven foreshadowed. Reuniting with people who have passed. Could be that. It could be Jack just coming back into the fellowship of believers in a way. It's just a way of expressing his spiritual journey. Could just be Jack finding contentment in God without understanding, which is where Job is at the end of the book. So I do like that Malik, you know, as explicit as we're making all of the spiritual themes here, I do like that he doesn't, to me, at least spell it out exactly what's going on because Job doesn't either.

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42:43Adam Kempenaar:I want to go back to what you said earlier. I think you were getting at this when you said now you completely get. You understand and think the creation sequence, of course, has to be here. It has to be here precisely because of what you're talking about and how it fits with Job. The opening quote, where were you when I created? We have to see it's God's response in the movie. The creation sequence is God's response. So it has to be here. And of course, I also do think about the hubris then of Malick voicing God by depicting it in a way is it's an interesting bold bold doesn't begin to cover it.

43:25Adam Kempenaar:Right. But he does. He yeah, I think I think it's him speaking for God. And I love that you rightfully pointed out that it is everybody in this film. Maybe only Steve, the youngest boy played by Ty Sheridan. We don't, or I'll say we don't fully see, we don't get as much of a sense of his suffering. He's definitely suffering like all the brothers. But we understand that Penn, despite how little we see of him in the film, that he's suffering in the modern day. We definitely see it in Hunter McCracken's Jack. We see it in in the the brother beneath him, R.L. And we see it in in Jessica Chastain's mother.

44:06Adam Kempenaar:And we see it, of course, in Mr. O 'Brien, too, even throughout the film, even though he may be the catalyst for all for a lot of this. And he may be the villain of the film in a lot of ways. He also has his own Job like moment, doesn't he? Because he has he has a point where he says later in the film, I never missed a day of work. I never missed a day of work. I tithed every Sunday. He just like Job, he played by all the rules, didn't he? Right. And what what did it get him? All he did was get humbled. He got humiliated. He got shamed. He got he got fired. And not only that, I think this is this is his version of or Malik's depiction of losing everything effectively.

44:50They not only have to just have hard times or they don't have as much money coming in.

44:57Adam Kempenaar:They get kicked out of the house. They they have to they have to leave. They get banished. They get banished from this place, Josh, completely. So that's his punishment for playing by all of the rules. And so that's his that's his job moment as well. But I also like that in this film, we get we get moments where we see into his humanity as well. And so there's a scene, for example, not only which I'd forgotten where he and the younger Jack actually do have have have a heart to heart that they don't they don't leave things completely unresolved into his his adulthood. like I maybe thought they might have.

45:43Adam Kempenaar:But the moment, Josh, that I think is one of the most devastating in the film, and this is one I'll admit to, it's another one that I'm thinking about when I say maybe I see too much of myself in Mr. O 'Brien. I don't know that it's always easy. Again, I'll speak for myself, but for a lot of us men to show our emotions and how we really feel. And the part where he asks Jack to bring him the lighter. And and it seems so appropriate for him. And I think through a lot of people's eyes watching that scene, that's just another example of him controlling his son. I get it. Bring me my lighter. And then he doesn't he doesn't do it completely the right way.

46:29Adam Kempenaar:And so it seems like he's kind of chastising him, right, because he doesn't give him a kiss on the cheek. He's demanding love. What a bad guy. And then when he turns and leaves and he asks him, do you love your father? You love your father?

46:44Josh Larsen:Yes, sir.

46:45Adam Kempenaar:I see in him, I see, and Pitt depicts this, I see in that man and in that entire exchange, he loves that kid so much. And he wants to be loved by that kid and all those kids so desperately. And he just does not know how or is just not equipped to express it properly. that that doesn't excuse any of his behavior but it's just a reality and you see it you see that that desperation in him and we finally do see as the movie goes on that he he does become somewhat self-aware he has to he he has to because of what happens the death of of rl he finally has to

47:27Josh Larsen:confront that yeah i'm glad you're making that distinction because i think the positioning of the father character as the villain of this movie has gotten overblown and malik sets it up a little bit with this nature grace, I should say, dichotomy with the mother grace and the father nature. And sometimes I wonder if that was entirely helpful to put it in such stark terms, because I really do see this as a human experience that the movie is capturing. And it's slightly different for the father than it is for the mother and for each son as well. So yeah, I think in that sense the movie is more nuanced than sometimes people remember when it comes to the mother and father characters can we just talk about some of the imagery yeah i mean we both had when we did our top five malik scenes we both had um two across his whole filmography from from this movie on it and do you regret that or do you feel now having revisited that that that makes sense

48:31Adam Kempenaar:No, it of course makes sense. And I actually should have had these up and I maybe need to bring them up here as we talk about it. I do remember one of them for sure. And Sam reminded me of this. We actually did two different Malik top fives. How about this speaking to Malik and his imagery? We did at one point our top five Malik images and our top five Malik scenes, Josh. I forgot about that. So turns out, guess what? And I truly didn't know this until I just looked it up right now. Top five Malick scenes. I called innocence. Just called it innocence. That entire sequence was my number two. Okay.

49:11Adam Kempenaar:And then the dinner table fight, the rebellion, the, the, the, the be quiet. When, when RL pushes back against father, that scene, that moment for me, that, that was my number five. When we did our Terrence Malick images, I know that one of the images on my list and and see, this is what happens when you you pick images out of context of the film when when you don't have time to rewatch the entire film. I take nothing back what I said. Everything I said was accurate. But rewatching the movie, I remembered that I picked the image, Josh, of it goes to what I was just talking about. It's the image of Mr.

49:56Adam Kempenaar:O 'Brien. as they're walking towards the house and he he puts his hand on jack's shoulder and it's both this come on let's go inside yeah too rough patting on the back but also absolutely his way of trying to show his son love and affection and being physically affectionate with his son and what does his son do in that moment exactly what you expect jack to do in that moment based on everything we've seen up to this point as soon as his dad's hand touches him he recoils a little bit yeah and it goes to the left but here's the part i was i was getting at at the start of this it's mirrored later in the film had forgotten that the the scene where they do get to have an exchange where they get to they get to come to terms with each other without without everything being completely forgotten and forgiven they do get to come to terms with each other that is ended that is punctuated josh with a similar exact same actually not similar the same kind of hand motion on on his back and there's still as i recall it a little bit of that awkwardness but not like it is right in that moment there and it it it says a lot it says a ton that there's now that just subtle distinction in how Jack reacts.

51:24Josh Larsen:What an incredibly instinctive performance from Hunter McCracken, who, according to IMDb, didn't act after this. So yeah, but here is just so lived in. All right. So mine, this is funny. I pulled up my images too. I totally forgotten we did that, but already on the Malick scenes, I touched on Dino Mercy. I had that at number three. And then number one is kind of what I was talking about at the very start, I went with the brothers with the BB gun, uh, where Jack is, you know, playing and, and making one of those, one of those existential choices. And then I look at my Malik images and it's related.

52:03Josh Larsen:I was looking for a Malik image to capture in one shot, this duality of human nature. And I landed on from the tree of life. it's a throwaway shot of the kids playing in the neighborhood, but it's their shadows.

52:22Adam Kempenaar:Yeah.

52:23Josh Larsen:I don't know if you remember this. I mean, it's just cinematographer Emmanuel Lubezki. I don't think we've noted yet, but to capture something like this as a, just purely as a pictorial image, it's the shadow of boys playing on the street, but you don't see the boys. You only see their shadows. And because of where the position he's at, they're upside down. so their heads are at the bottom of the screen and this is just like in in one and a half seconds capturing to me like everything this movie is exploring the the duality of the shadow side but they're at play it's fun it's beautiful but it's also hinting at something it's also the dark side of them why is it upside down it's a little a little disconcerting in that way and this is a movie, Adam, that gives you a image as potent and rich and aesthetically pleasing like that every 12 seconds, it seems like.

53:23Josh Larsen:It feels like it.

53:23Adam Kempenaar:Yeah.

53:24Josh Larsen:Where you could, like if I ever did a cinema interrupt us on this, where we break it down, like shot to shot, we would never get out of here. It would, you would just be like staring at the screen and you'd be pausing every second and a half. It's incredible. Yeah.

53:38Adam Kempenaar:That shot you mentioned is in fact the first shot in my notes that I, it wasn't the first note I took, but it was the first shot that I noted and pondered and tried to make sense of. It was so fascinating and throws you off a little bit. It throws you off. And that's why, that's why I think it's so great is that it's, it is just as you described it, it's something so familiar shadows of it's kids playing but it's shadows of kids playing but then on top of it it's upside down and the only way i could really describe it is like so many images in the film it's it's life like we've always seen it except like we've never seen it before it is it is it is the familiar but somehow alien and and and it's constant the way lubezki and malik do it in this film and not only that they do it the best imagery in this film i think consistently is with shadows it's it's shadows and silhouettes it's it's not only chastain often this is true but also the the woman i had forgotten about this sequence completely i I'd forgotten about the woman that he starts to develop the lustful feelings for.

54:59Adam Kempenaar:I forgot he broke into her home. I forgot that he hid the slip and put it down the down the river. But the way that he sees her after he spies her. Oh, that image of the slip going down the water. How about that? Oh, that too. But when he sees her, Josh, and she she then ends up behind one of the sheets. Yeah. And so we see her silhouetted against the sheet. The images, those images of people silhouetted again or any kind of shadow is so haunting in this film. But it's also, I would say, the way they managed to find. I don't know how to describe them other than I'll say spirit images. And what I mean is, you know how they they they sort of use almost as chapter breaks.

55:45Adam Kempenaar:Maybe you have a term for this, Josh, maybe in your classes or your class, you came up with this. But the that that flame that that flame against the darkness that that occasionally is is something that they use between parts. there are corollaries to that and i don't know if they're meant entirely to be or they're just meant to be their own their own spiritual type images but throughout the movie you can find ways that they in the natural order of things they find versions oh wow so so for example yeah on the wall at one point they just shoot the wall one of the bedroom walls and it's just the way we've all seen it but we never stopped to really look at it the way the sun comes through the wall and it will get refracted a certain way so that the light and through the tree you know it'll just be that like kind of glowing yellow bit against the wall it looks like that flame looks right it's shimmering against the wall you'll see that there's a shot of the moon at one point josh where the clouds the way the clouds specifically are against the moon where it looks just like that.

57:01Adam Kempenaar:I don't know how they do it constantly throughout this film, but they do.

57:05Josh Larsen:I love that. And next time I watch this, I'm going to be looking only for that. Yeah, that image, I mean, I think it's meant to represent the cosmic image of God is what we're looking at there. and that is also seen maybe my mind is going now as you describe it that way how about the shot where they're like in the canyons actually there's no people in it suddenly we'll get a shot of these undulating canyons that are like cinnamon colored and they're almost they're obviously not moving but because of how they're formed they i think that's another one yeah that yeah falls in line with what you're talking about so i think so um yeah i'm gonna look for that next time i watch this

57:49Adam Kempenaar:okay anything we didn't get to will will our film spotting family members be satisfied with

57:56Josh Larsen:the length of this conversation i mean no because i'm not hit an hour we should so we should probably keep going but i i think we've expressed what we wanted to and that it's held up for you at least because this was your first time your first time since release josh it's my first time since 2011

58:17Adam Kempenaar:and I'm glad you said that because this reminds me of something I did feel like it was worth mentioning. Sam had put this in our notes that this movie was reviewed for the first time, episode 351, about 25 episodes before you joined the show, June 2011. Then top 10 films of 2011, episode 380. You were on that show. We both named it our number one of the year. Came up again, top five films of the film spotting era. This is episode 500, our big blowout with Michael Phillips and Dana Stevens at the Music Box in August 2014. You had it as your number one film of the film spotting era. I had it number two behind The Master.

58:56Adam Kempenaar:Then we put it in the Pantheon in June 2017 as part of our, it sounds like I definitely had it this time, and I was just watching at home, top five religious experiences at the movies. Finally, just recently, episode 1013, May 2025, 25 top 25 films of the 21st century you had it at number two i put it at number 11 but if we had had this rewatch there's no way it's not in my top 10 and probably not in my top five it it i'm so glad it exceeded my expectations it it truly did yeah wow if you haven't if you haven't revisited it, you have to.

59:38Josh Larsen:Yeah, absolutely. I wasn't worried that you were going to not like it, but I did wonder, you know, how, how well it would hold up. And in light of, you know, some of Malik's later work and how much I know you love his early stuff. I think that's where we differ is I think you revere his early stuff maybe, um, higher than I do. Uh, so maybe we go back to that question now. I'm with you now.

1:00:04Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. I used to feel, I, I used, I used to, I used to feel like you could make a case even though it was his first film. And maybe if it didn't feel quite the same in terms of ambition, scale, scope, polish, as something like The Tree of Life or even The New World or whatever. Badlands was still the movie for me that somehow just, I'll go back to the word potent. It still captured something for me that a lot of first films and a lot of first novels can do. Somehow they just they feel like it's what the filmmaker most wanted to express and they got it. And that's where I was. And I've loved other films, too, including The New World, where I thought The New World, which was my first Malick, that that also felt since it was my first.

1:00:57Adam Kempenaar:that was my introduction to Malick I thought okay this is what Malick is this is that right balance of narrative logic but with non-linear storytelling and the emphasis on poetry cinematic poetry but with enough narrative foundation world building and characters to latch on to so when tree of life came along I saw okay he's pushing that he's pushing that now further. And I got that. I now, I now see that, yes, he was pushing it further and he was pushing it further in a way that I find tremendously satisfying. It's, it's his best film. It's, it's clearly his best film. It's not even close.

1:01:42Josh Larsen:I, okay. You're wow. You're going hard. I, I love it. I'm with you. I think it means more coming from you. I will say than me, just knowing how much love you have for a lot of that early stuff. But I just go back to that sculptor analogy and it's like, I can see where he's going. I can see how he's trying to get there. And, and maybe there's some techniques that, you know, are being leaned on here a little too heavily, or the voiceover isn't entirely working in concert. It's like all those elements he was working with all the materials that he had in every movie before this, they're all here. They're just shaped.

1:02:20Josh Larsen:in a perfect, perfect way for the movie that you get a sense he wanted to make.

1:02:27Adam Kempenaar:We would love to hear if you disagree or agree with us. You can email us about the Tree of Life or share any other comments about the show. Feedback at filmspotting.net. Speaking of our Film Spotting family members, let's take a moment to thank a couple of them, Josh.

1:02:43Josh Larsen:Yeah, thank you to family member Ginger Sheridan, who's in Neptune Beach, Florida. and also thank you to advisory board member Will Johnson in Portland, Oregon. When they joined, we invited them to answer a few questions so we could get to know them better. And Ginger shared this. She found us by Googling movie review podcasts. I've been listening for about six months. I keep listening because you review all genres with a mix of quotidian and scholarly banter. Adam, I think, didn't you just use quotidian in our review? So yeah. How about that?

1:03:16Adam Kempenaar:following ginger's lead there twice in the same episode you know maybe don't don't don't play the

1:03:23Josh Larsen:drinking game with quotidian in this episode here's will i discovered podcasts and was looking for new ones i think the first episode i heard was in 2007 where sam and adam massacred buffalo 66 which i immediately had to see and i've been quoting that movie since okay yes banning time

1:03:44Adam Kempenaar:together well that's all we're doing spanning time a movie we got wrong ginger says differences of opinion aren't wrong unless you tell me the original the in-laws isn't the best movie ever 1979 peter falk alan arkin directed by arthur hillard i won't tell you that ginger because i haven't seen it how do you feel about that response right which is worse uh yeah which is worse not or that you haven't seen it i'm in the same i'm guessing that i haven't seen it but who knows will says is it too early to say superman 2025 yes it is will too soon yeah i think i think that's going to be a common answer to this question of the years i know we're going to be hearing that for 10 years josh uh-huh probably we'll be doing this 15 20 years from now and getting superman 2025 movies they credit with becoming cinephiles ginger says to serve with love and will says

1:04:35Josh Larsen:pulp fiction that's a bold statement will thank you ginger and will for being family members if If you want to follow Will on Letterboxd, he's at Long Claw. Claw with a K. Ginger says, I have no idea what Letterboxd is. Check it out, Ginger. You'll love it. You'll have fun. We're all on there. In addition to keeping us doing what we're doing, family membership comes with perks. You can listen early and add free. You'll get a weekly newsletter. You'll also have exclusive opportunities like the Film Spotting Family Discord and monthly bonus shows. we got ahead of this month's bonus show, Adam, at least recording it.

1:05:14Josh Larsen:We got it done with Sam Thompson, the winner of Film Spotting Madness, Best of the 1940s this year. Sam came up with the idea to do a new Hollywood draft, which was a lot of fun. So that one is in the books. It will be coming out to Film Spotting family member feeds very soon. That's right. And who had the number one pick in that draft, Josh? You mean who had Chinatown?

1:05:40Adam Kempenaar:That would be me. Okay. Spoilers. Yes, you did have Chinatown. You, you, you, I won't even say you lucked into it because you had the right answer to the question that Thomas Todd posed to us and you, you earned it. I earned Chinatown. What does it say about my brain that I've seen Will's letterbox handle for years? I think it's even part of his email address and I have never once thought to pronounce it long claw. I have always, I've always said long K law. I'm an idiot. Wow. You're right.

1:06:14Josh Larsen:You are certainly right.

1:06:15Adam Kempenaar:It's long claw.

1:06:16Josh Larsen:It's got to be. From what I know of Will, he's not an attorney. For a minute there, I thought maybe he was advertising his... He's not an attorney. So I think it's long claw.

1:06:26Adam Kempenaar:God, I'm dumb. For as little as$5 a month, and that's even less if you pay annually, you get all of the benefits Josh mentioned, including getting to hear that very fun bonus episode coming into your feed soon. Learn more at filmspottingfamily.com. You can also rate or review us. Yes, we still do like positive ratings over at Apple Podcasts and at Spotify. Every new review hopefully will help us reach some new listeners.

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1:09:06Adam Kempenaar:that's tony leung from his new film silent friend no big deal josh i just got a chance to talk to one of the greatest actors of all time yeah tony leung how about that how about that it was it was fun, I have to say. He, of course, of In the Mood for Love fame. He had a longtime partnership with director Wong Kar-Wai, among dozens of other movie credits. His new film is called Silent Friend, directed by Hungarian filmmaker Ildiko Niedi. The silent friend of the film's title is a ginkgo tree on the grounds of a medieval German university. It's a film definitely worth seeing, got a lot of buzz on the fest circuit, Josh.

1:09:52Adam Kempenaar:I don't think you've had a chance to see it yet, but I know it's coming up on your screen soon.

1:09:59Josh Larsen:Absolutely. That's all I need. I don't need to know anything else about it. That description, the ginkgo tree, Tony Leung, I will be there. So yeah, you and I are going to talk about Silent Friend next week. We will have your conversation with Tony Leung. We are also going to catch up with a title that you, Adam, drafted. Did we draft our summer movie preview? Yeah, we drafted. We did. I think my last pick. Decorado. Okay. Animated film. It's going to be in limited release this week, and it comes from Spanish animator Alberto Vasquez. I'm eager to see that one as well. So we'll check out that along with Silent Friend.

1:10:38Adam Kempenaar:We also wanted to take a moment to mention that, well, you may be aware of it as a film fan that the 2026 Cannes Film Festival opened today as we're recording. That's Tuesday, the 12th. Some of the titles premiering at Cannes and playing in competition include new films from Reisuke Hamaguchi, Drive My Car, Evil Does Not Exist. His new one is called All of a Sudden, which is set in a suburban Paris nursing home. Hirokazu Kureta has a new one out, the near future set Sheep in the Box, about a couple who are raising a humanoid robot as their son. Okay, I'm in. Christian Munju, four months, three weeks, and two days.

1:11:20Adam Kempenaar:The Romanian director, he's got a Norwegian set, Fjord. You should have done the pronunciation of that one, Josh. But Renata Reinsva, one of my favorite actresses, is in that, along with Sebastian Stan and James Gray. His new one, Paper Tiger, reuniting Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson from Marriage Story. They're together in that new one.

1:11:42Josh Larsen:Ira Sachs' new film is the 80s set The Man I Love. That one stars Rami Malek as a theater artist living with AIDS. Pedro Almodovar's Bitter Christmas is playing at Cannes, which hopefully means it will come to American cinemas later this year. Asghar Farhadi has a new one as well. The Paris set Parallel Tales, that features Isabel Huppert and Vincent Cassel. and then pavel pawlikowski this is his first since 2018's cold war it's fatherland with get this sandra hula and then lastly a couple here titles playing out of competition jane schoenbrunn's teenage sex and death at camp miasma that one came up on our summer movie preview and nicholas winding refins her private hell yeah refins first feature since 2016's neon demon i love neon demon so I will have to be sure to catch this one.

1:12:42Adam Kempenaar:What is going on there? I have not heard that name in quite a while. Had made a few films in a row. Was on Film Spotting. I interviewed Nicholas Winding Refn back when The Neon Demon came out. I'm curious to see what that filmmaker is up to when Her Private Hell plays near us and I'm sure it's one we will talk about here on the show. The Cannes Film Festival runs through the 23rd. Josh, I don't know about you. You'll be back in this country at this time next year. I do have next year earmarked. It couldn't happen this year because I have a college graduation to deal with. But next May, I think it might be the time.

1:13:20Adam Kempenaar:I think it might be the first trip to the Cannes Film Festival.

1:13:23Josh Larsen:All right. Can I hide in your suitcase or something? There might be a broom closet for you to stay in. We'll see. Perfect. Perfect. Tell me what you remember.

1:13:39Josh Larsen:a wife

1:13:44Josh Larsen:a son

1:13:48and then what

1:13:52we won the war

1:13:55Adam Kempenaar:time for some poll results a couple of weeks ago as part of our summer movie draft we asked you to choose one and only one summer 2026 movie it was pretty simple you could see Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey or anything else, any other movie that you're more interested in than The Odyssey. Josh, did The Odyssey take this or did any other movie win?

1:14:18Josh Larsen:I mean, anything else put up a fight. It took 43%, but yeah, The Odyssey won this with 57 % of the vote. Here's a note from Rob in DC. There's an old Onion article titled, Yankees ensure 2003 pennant by signing every player in baseball. Now, I'm not saying Christopher Nolan is doing the cinematic version of this by casting every interesting actor in Hollywood in the Odyssey, but I'm not not saying that. Give me the star power and spectacle.

1:14:47Adam Kempenaar:Fair enough. John Dembski says, Does the spectacle of a 2 ,000-year-old tale film purely on analog IMAX by one of our greatest working directors starring everyone under the sun sound incredible? Of course it does. But not to be morbid, how many more times will we get a chance to see an alien-themed Spielberg film on opening weekend? If we're basing this on genuine excitement, not just impressiveness, Disclosure Day it is.

1:15:11Josh Larsen:Hey, I'm with you there, John. Here's Sam Creighton. Nolan is never going to be more exciting than Spielberg. None of Nolan's top three Interstellar, Memento, Oppenheimer would challenge any of Spielberg's top 10. Jaws, Raiders of the Lost Ark, E.T., The Last Crusade, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan, Close Encounters, The Fableman's Minority Report. Nolan has made great films, but Spielberg is one of the greats. It's no competition. Wow. Wow. Um, man, Sam, as the guy who voted disclosure day voted other. Yeah. Even Josh isn't along with that.

1:15:47Adam Kempenaar:Totally.

1:15:47Josh Larsen:I'm going to have to give that some thought. None of Nolan's top three would challenge any of Spielberg's top.

1:15:54Adam Kempenaar:Well, that's, that's obviously false. I would say that maybe about the first four he listed, but I'm not going much deeper than that. Yeah. I think, I think Sam's getting a little ahead of himself there. Sorry. Jeremy Laffrey says,

1:16:18Adam Kempenaar:All right, there you go.

1:16:20Josh Larsen:Rob Stager said,

1:16:34Josh Larsen:Sorry, Homer.

1:16:36Adam Kempenaar:so rob doesn't think he has to play by our rules okay it's outside the film spotting universe fine brett in newton mass says do i want to see the odyssey of course do i need the odyssey in my life possibly but probably not right now i do need another john carney movie power ballad it is yes

1:16:55Josh Larsen:wow okay power ballad coming in to knock out the odyssey shoshanna rosenbaum had another pick that isn't the Odyssey. The Invite. I loved Booksmart and don't worry, Darlene. Olivia Wilde is an underappreciated filmmaker and her latest looks intriguing.

1:17:14Adam Kempenaar:A couple more for you. John from LA. I'm voting for the Odyssey, but I want to give some love to Jackass Best and Last. I've gone to see all the Jackass movies on opening night with a packed crowd. And those have been some of my most fun and enjoyable experiences in a theater. In one such instance, I literally slapped my knee in a burst of raucous laughter. Shout out to Johnny Knoxville and the Jackass Fellowship for capturing the fun spirit of summer to such hilarious and squirm-inducing effect.

1:17:42Josh Larsen:Yeah, I imagine that would be a pretty wild time. Last comment comes from Scott G. The summer movie that tops my personal list, Coyote vs. Acme. This live-action slash animated romp might not have even seen the light of day if it weren't for another distributor buying it from Warner Brothers. Luckily, we will have our chance to see Will Forte and John Cena act like utter fools for our amusement while the infamous Wile E. Coyote sues the Acme Corporation over all the defective products he's ordered from them in his eternal quest to catch the Roadrunner. Sounds like a great time to me. Hmm.

1:18:16Adam Kempenaar:Okay. That brings us to our new poll question looking ahead to next week's big release, Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu. We're asking because we genuinely have no clue. The Mandalorian and Grogu, Josh, the options are. I'll see it opening weekend.

1:18:36Josh Larsen:I'll see it in theaters. I'll wait for streaming. What's a Grogu? I'll be skipping.

1:18:44Adam Kempenaar:so we now have to answer this question and currently we do have this poll up for a few days now it went out in the film spotting family newsletter and what's the what's the line from the tree tree of life father as always you wrestle inside me something about the duality i'm pretty sure that that the two top answers and they have almost equal number of votes are we'll see it

1:19:14Josh Larsen:opening weekend and what's a grogu that fits that actually makes a lot of sense now where do you i i didn't know what a grogu was because i have watched all the seasons on disney plus but here's here's where it lands in my focus. I guess you should say I had to ask other family members who watched it with me. Does, did that end? Is it, is this like an, like, is this a new story? Is this wrapping? Turns out, Adam, everyone's curious about this. This is essentially the last season of the Mandalorian. This book, they blew the last season up into a feature film. So, I mean, I want to see it. I, Because I've put the time in and honestly, the best thing I liked about the show, which I hope will be carried over to the film is great costume design in this and a lot of actual locations like it was had good production design as well.

1:20:14Josh Larsen:So I'm interested in it on those fronts. That's what I'll say.

1:20:19Adam Kempenaar:Okay. Well, I suppose I have to answer the only truthful answer here, which is what's a Grogu? I have no clue. I haven't watched any of these TV shows. I haven't watched any episodes. I don't even know what a Mandalorian is. So I can't answer that. That's my answer. Now, if it really does also mean what's in parentheses will be skipping, obviously I'm not skipping it. We're reviewing it. So I'm seeing it. If I was a civilian, I suppose I probably would be skipping because I have not been keeping up and I wouldn't have a clue what's going on. And does that make me a little... the sad to the coal mine into the coal mine with this one yeah yeah i mean am i a little sad considering my childhood love for all things star wars i guess but i don't i hate being the guy who says this but it is just a fact i don't watch tv i don't watch anything on tv other than movies i that's just well nothing and literally nothing sports occasionally that's it let's be fair if

1:21:27Josh Larsen:you did i don't think the mandalorian would have you know been at the top of the line no you're viewing choices which which i i get it i understand yeah i hear mad men's pretty good i may may finally

1:21:41Adam Kempenaar:see that at some point i recommend we would love to hear what your answer is tell me all about what a mandalorian is forget a grogu just tell me what a mandalorian yeah we gotta start we gotta start

1:21:54Josh Larsen:at the beginning.

1:21:55Adam Kempenaar:You can vote in the poll and leave a comment at filmspotting.net slash dot com. Either one will work.

1:22:02Josh Larsen:Josh, that's our show. If you'd like to connect with us on social media, you can find Adam in the show on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, YouTube, and Blue Sky. He's at Film Spotting. I'm at Larson on film. We are independently produced and listener supported. you can support the show by joining the film spotting family do that at film spotting family.com that way you can listen early and ad free you'll get monthly bonus episodes a weekly newsletter and access to the entire show archive for show t-shirts and other merch go to film spotting.net

1:22:37Adam Kempenaar:slash shop a quick run through of what's opening this weekend we mentioned decorado the new animated film we hope to talk about that next week on the show out wide guy richie has a new film out josh It's his fifth film since 2023, his second with Jake Gyllenhaal. Henry Cavill also stars their elite operatives on a mission. There's only one kind of operative. It's elite. They're on a mission to steal back a stolen fortune. It's called In the Gray.

1:23:05Josh Larsen:Can we get Richie and Malick to flip their their production speed? Hey, that's all I'm asking. I'm not banning Richie. I'm just saying, like, if he could do the Malick pace and Malick could do the guy Richie pace.

1:23:18Adam Kempenaar:Okay, see, I thought much more interesting. You were going to suggest that Guy Ritchie make like In the Magic Hour and Terrence Malick make a movie about elite operatives on a mission to steal back a stolen fortune.

1:23:30Josh Larsen:I don't want that.

1:23:32Adam Kempenaar:No, you don't? Okay.

1:23:33Josh Larsen:Just more Malick, less Ritchie.

1:23:35Adam Kempenaar:Is God Is also out. First time feature director Alicia Harris adapting her own stage play about two sisters on a quest for revenge, Janelle Monae and Sterling K. Brown. And that 86 on Metacritic life hack from director Ronan Corrigan, also a first time director obsession feature debut from Curry Barker. One half of the, that was a bad idea. YouTube duo also good rating on Metacritic. If you're interested 82, it's a cautionary tale about the perils of getting what you want and an instant contender for classic midnight movie status. According to daily beast re-releases. Shrek and Top Gun, Top Gun Maverick are back in theaters.

1:24:20Adam Kempenaar:Next week here in the Film Spotting feed, you can find Film Spotting SVU, the state of streaming. They're going to be taking a look at Netflix, Matt Singer and Jordan Hoffman. They're assigning grades. I'm actually very curious about this, especially as someone who needs a little bit of, I guess, intentionality behind these platforms, where to focus my energy. They're going to be assigning grades to the various streaming platforms, Josh. Oh, I like that. Yeah, that'll be helpful. You will also soon hear the next picture show coming in the FilmSpotting feed. And how about this? George Miller's Babe Pig in the City paired with The Sheep Detectives.

1:24:59Adam Kempenaar:The title of this pairing, The Burden of Hoof. Come on, Josh.

1:25:05Josh Larsen:I mean, you know I give the next picture show a pass with their puns because it's a title. something about this makes my skin feel itchy. You're elated? No.

1:25:18Adam Kempenaar:All-powerful joy? Yes. No. I know, me too.

1:25:21Josh Larsen:Other direction.

1:25:24Adam Kempenaar:All right, Tony Leung and Silent Friend and more coming Friday here on Film Spotting. We'll see what else we can get up to.

1:25:32Josh Larsen:Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dissot and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempadar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:25:52Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

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1:27:10Adam Kempenaar:Apple Vacations semi-annual sale is here, and it's the perfect time to plan your next beach getaway. Enjoy up to$250 off international and Hawaii vacations, up to$150 off domestic trips and hotel savings up to 70 % off. With instant savings of$300,$500, or even$700, your escape has never been more rewarding. Book by May 28th at AppleVacations.com or contact your local travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts.

1:27:37Josh Larsen:And now, another appliance triumph from your friends at Grand Appliance. Meet Jan. Her fridge died days before a dinner party, but she didn't panic. I just called my guy at Grand Appliance.

1:27:50Adam Kempenaar:He recommended a large-capacity GE profile option with fingerprint-resistant stainless steel and a convertible middle drawer. I can optimize for meat, beverages, snacks, or wine. Best of all, it was in stock, and they delivered next day.

1:28:02Josh Larsen:Another crisis averted by Grand Appliance. Shop GrandAppliance.com to learn more.