Top 5 Batman/Superman Moments with Glen Weldon and Chris Klimek (Archive)

18:36Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. I think even as a younger man, still at that point, I recognized that movie was not as good as Superman the movie or Superman 2, but I still really enjoyed it. And I don't know what that says about me, Glenn. No, no, no. It just means that Richard Pryor, even bad Richard Pryor, is still Richard Pryor. All right. My number four, I can't believe I'm doing this. Chris, you'll appreciate this. I'm no defender of Man of Steel. I said earlier in the show with Michael that I actually think Batman versus Superman might be slightly, slightly better than Man of Steel. And yet, that's what Michael said.

19:10Adam Kempenaar:And yet I am going with a scene from Man of Steel for my number four. And it's the flashback that an unconscious floating in the water Superman, Henry Cavill is having. And he's thinking back to the time when he was a young school boy, maybe six to eight years old maybe even a little bit younger kind of kindergarten first grade and he is having a really tough time in school i'm here clark honey it's mom will you open the door what's wrong with him anyway he's such a freak his parents won't even let him play with other kids i know what a weirdo sweetie how can i help you if you won't let me in the world's too big mom

19:58Adam Kempenaar:Everything about that scene, it ending with Diane Lane coming and the conversation that the mother and son have where he says the world's too big, Mom. And she explains, well, just make it small. That's a nice little touching moment. I don't know why all the school kids from the classroom have to be out there as well, like adding to his traumatic moment. But it's a really touching little moment. Before that, though, is really what I love about the scene. The fact that we got shades of that in the original Superman where, yeah, OK, he gets picked on a little bit and boy, it's tough having these special powers.

20:32Adam Kempenaar:He doesn't get to go hang out with the cool kids and it has to act out a little bit. But it's nothing like the real kind of terror we see, what Zack Snyder perceives that that life would have been like for a young Clark Kent. And watching that, that's really kind of terrifying, watching him as he perceives the world where he hears the sounds in an amplified way that is very hard for him to deal with. He sees the teacher. He sees through her, of course. She sees the skeleton. It's a very imposing kind of sequence. and there was something about that that I appreciated, I think mainly because, again, it was something I had never really seen in one of these films before.

21:14Adam Kempenaar:It was a new take on the young life of Superman that does make sense in terms of how he later perceives the world and that he's got a little grimmer view of it. So The World's Too Big is my number four. I like that scene too, Adam. I'm going to pump up my evaluation of Man of Steel to 52%. Fair enough. 52 % fresh. Number three for you, Chris. All right. Right. Well, I swear I didn't pick this one just so we could revisit our old saw over what is or is not a reboot. But the other, I think, underappreciated, not nearly as reviled as Man of Steel is, Superman film from the 21st century is Bryan Singer's Superman Returns from 2006.

21:53This is maybe it's a rewind quill in the sense that it sort of pretends that Superman 3 and 4 never happened and picks up the story. I think it's supposed to be five years after Superman 2 or thereabouts. I believe they specify that in the film. This is very much a love letter to the first Richard Donner Superman from 78. Superman has been away from Earth for some long period, seeking remnants of Krypton or something. He is reintroduced to the world in this fantastic action sequence, probably the most elaborate one that we've ever seen that does not involve destroying Metropolis in a Superman film, where the space shuttle or some similar space vehicle is being piggybacked on the back of a passenger jet carrying a coterie of journalists.

22:33Lois Lane is among them. The rockets fire too soon, endangering both vehicles. So Superman shows up to first physically separate the two, the spacecraft from the airplane and sees the space shuttle make it safely into space, then looks down to see that the passenger jet is flaming and disintegrating and falling to Earth beneath him. You know, this is the kind of elaborate action sequence that would not have been possible when Richard Donner was making his Superman movie in the 70s. Obviously, it is very heavily reliant on CGI, but the uncanny valley thing, when you see a human figure rendered in CGI, doesn't really kick in here because it's so stylized.

23:09It kind of evokes the look of the Max Fleischer Superman cartoons of the 1940s. So even though it doesn't look quite photorealistic, it still looks really cool. There is a brief homage to 2001, where as the plane that Lois is in becomes weightless briefly, her pen sort of floats out of her shirt pocket and she reaches for it. And then one of the things that I love about this sequence is it showcases some of Superman's weirder powers. He gets to use super breath, among other things, because he's not just super strong and capable of flight. But my favorite element of it is he keeps trying things to rescue this flaming, disintegrating, falling airplane that don't work.

23:48Because even though he can do all these things, he's probably not encountered this specific problem before. So he tries to grab it by the wing and the wing snaps off. He's trying various things, really exhausting his reserve of ideas, not his powers, to finally bring this plane to a gentle halt just above a baseball diamond. So there's a great shot where the batter gets a good piece of the pitch, and then the crowd cheers because it looks like he's going to get a base hit, and then they all look up and see this flaming aircraft come down. And then the scene has the perfect button where Superman takes the door off the plane, bores it, and then echoes his line from Superman 78.

24:24Well, I hope this experience hasn't put any of you off flying. Statistically speaking, it's still the safest way to travel. I love that scene.

24:34Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I just saw that scene. I think because Superman Returns has been playing on HBO, it was maybe a week or so ago. I caught that scene and really did enjoy it for all the reasons that you said. And I like what you were saying as well about how it compares to some of the CGI stuff, where clearly it needed CGI to be captured. And yet it doesn't feel like all of the nonsense we get in Man of Steel or that we get in the last 30 or 40 minutes of Batman v. Superman. It feels a little bit closer to the kind of naturalistic type stunts and action scenes that we get in the Nolan films. I think the Batman movies from Christopher Nolan.

25:12Adam Kempenaar:So I agree. It's a really good sequence and a good choice. What about you, Glenn? Well, yeah, I'd pick up on that. I mean, I think what you're picking up on there is that it seems a more nuanced film because it does come at this character from a more mature place. I'm not saying like adult sexually mature. I'm saying there's a note of melancholy throughout this movie. More than a note. Yeah, that is absolutely new to the character, not something we associate with a character. A mournfulness, a lost, something that he's lost. And I think it's interesting. I do think the film struggles because we are told at the beginning that he's gone away and abandoned Earth.

25:49And then the movie spends the rest of its running time kind of punishing him for doing a thing that we didn't see him do, a choice we didn't see him make. so it feels like it's dumping on him for something that if you know the character seems like a thing we would need more explanation of he wouldn't just go away just because he saw there's a piece of krypton he would need more but i do like that film um more than a lot of people really okay your number three my number three is the is from batman begins it's a purely visual moment i like batman begins i like nolan's films better when they shut up i do have an issue with some of his dialogue, but it's the bat baptism that happens.

26:27Once Bruce Wayne discovers the bat cave, and the bats swarm around him, and Zimmer's score swells, that is one of the moments that I remember from that trilogy.

26:44He's got a storytelling fetish for groundedness and realism that can seem dour and kind of talky and purely expository, but he couches it with this cinematography, and especially this Zimmer score, that's very downright operatic in tone and swoony. And this moment melds those two things together really nicely. It's something that could happen, but it's given this touch of magic by the way it's shot and by the sound, by the score. It's one of the most arresting visuals in the entire trilogy. I would put the moment when Heath Ledger's Joker sticks his head out of the police window like a dog as he's driving.

27:21That might be the other one, but that's the moment that I remember from that entire trilogy.

27:24Adam Kempenaar:Great stuff, and I'm glad you mentioned as well one that's certainly an honorable mention for me, the one with the Joker and his head out the window in that film. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. With real-time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.com. My number three is a choice that I'm not sure if you guys are going to be on board with and find halfway inspired or you're just going to shame me miserably.

28:09Adam Kempenaar:For the rest of this segment, maybe a little bit of both, I'm going to share my pick via this soliloquy. darkness no parents continued darkness the opposite of light black hole curtains drawn in the basement middle of the night blacked out windows black suit black coffee darkness no parents super rich kind of makes it better and scene that of course from the lego movie not a batman or superman movie but you could argue it is batman's certainly a major character in that film, voiced by Will Arnett. That is self-portrait, his original composition. And I just think it so neatly, so hilariously punctures the self-seriousness of Batman.

28:54Adam Kempenaar:And I think Arnett and his voice work is brilliant. So it's my number three, guys. Yeah, if I thought about it, that would be my number one. That's a perfect choice. The fact that they rolled out the trailer for the Lego Batman movie the same weekend that Batman v. Superman came out, it kind of seems like an insurance policy, doesn't it? Maybe. They know what they're sitting on. Yeah. That brings us to your top two choices, Chris. All right. Well, it was really tough to try to pick a scene to represent the whole Nolan trilogy. And where I landed kind of surprised even me. Now, in this retcon of the story, and I'll preface this by recommending both of Glenn's books, his Superman book and his Batman book, where you will get a nuanced and lengthy critique of the ways in which each film incarnation of Batman or Superman is separately heretical.

29:44Adam Kempenaar:Nuanced and lengthy. That might be the best backhanded compliment ever, Glenn. Well, I had the honor of proofreading his Batman book, and I then chose to listen to it again on audio to have him read it to me in his own voice. So if that's not an endorsement or a comment on my own sanity, I don't know. Exactly. It's an endorsement. No, but in Nolan and David Goyer's retcon of the Batman myth, It's actually a Batman villain who sort of plants the seed that, you know, he doesn't set Bruce Wayne on this crusade. But not only is it, well, in the audio book, Glenn corrects Liam Neeson's pronunciation of his name, Ra's al Ghul.

30:24Glenn, can you? Yeah, I mean, in the live action films, they say Ra's. In the animated series, they say Ra's. My heart's with the animated series. Okay, so Ra's al Ghul is played by Liam Neeson. And he is the leader of the League of Shadows, who in this version of the story will provide Bruce Wayne with his ninja training, but also in the scene that I'm picking, the very idea of using the tools of theatricality and a frightening costume. And he hasn't arrived at specifically using a bat image yet, but a theatrical approach to make him appear to be more than a man. When he comes to him in his cell in whatever unspecified country it is where Bruce has been imprisoned kind of on purpose so he can fight a lot of bad guys and toughen himself up.

31:06And then Rache comes into his cell and says, you know, what are you doing? You're a rich kid. You could only be here if you chose to be here. And he says, you can make yourself more than a man. and he asks what that is. The legend must have lain. Now, there was one critic who wrote that the film's dialogue, quote, could have been markedly improved had Nolan simply instituted a moratorium on abstract nouns. Who was that, Glenn? That would be me, Chris. Oh, right, right. Okay, well, I chose this scene to stand in for the entire Nolan trilogy because I feel like this kind of sets up what becomes the climax of The Dark Knight, where in order to propagate a legend, Bruce agrees to take the blame for Harvey Dent's crime so that the people of Gotham can continue to believe in the unsullied reputation and goodness that they think Harvey represents.

31:59And of course, that becomes the tragedy that feeds into the third film, the climax. But yeah, Legend Mr. Wayne, I feel like the seeds of every place that this telling of the Batman myth goes start right there, like maybe 20 minutes into Batman Begins. That's my number two. Good stuff. Glenn? I fear you've made a good point there, Chris, but ultimately my anger outweighs my fear.

32:24Adam Kempenaar:What about your number two, Glenn? This is a lengthy sequence. It's not really a montage, but it is from Superman the movie. It's basically Superman's first night on the town, his first appearance, the stuff he does. It comes almost an hour into this movie. This is the moment we finally get to the fireworks factory. We've had the austere and empty Krypton for a long time. Then we get the green and empty Kansas. Then we get the cold and empty Fortress of Solitude. And all of that is set up, set up, set up. And now finally, we're in the dark and bustling metropolis. It's teeming with life. And we see something that we haven't, we feel something in this movie that we haven't felt before.

33:06Urgency. This city needs him. We see it because Lois Lane is in trouble. She's falling off a building with a helicopter. So it starts with him making a change in front of a troubling character, a pimp character who says the immortal line, Say, Jim, that's a bad outfit. Exactly. I thought you were going to say start the world engine. No, not elevate the world engine. No, better. The codex. Nope, nope, nope. So, say, Jim, then the helicopter rescue, then rescuing a cat in a tree, Then a cat burglar climbing up a building. Then some more burglars on a boat for some reason. And finally, he ends the evening by saving Air Force One.

33:47That whole moment leans heavily into the comedy, which we haven't really gotten before. When we introduce the Daily Planet, we get screwball comedy kind of a very fast patter. But up to then, we've had very sweeping, myth-making, impressive score, impressive landscapes. and now we're finally in the middle of a 70s comedy. It has a completely different feel, and it's when the film really takes off. So that's what I'm going with. God, look up there. What the hell is that? Easy, miss. I've got you. You've got me. Who's got you?

34:28Adam Kempenaar:My number two is going to be from Christopher Nolan as well, but not Batman Begins. I'm going with the Dark Knight, and it's the introduction scene to the Joker when he meets with all the mob bosses and says that we all have to unite, and our goal is to kill the Batman. Of course, this is also the scene where we get his great magic trick with the pencil. I thought my jokes were bad. Give me one reason why I shouldn't have my boy here pull your head off. How about a magic trick?

35:05I'm going to make this pencil disappear.

35:13It's gone.

35:15Adam Kempenaar:This one stands out, obviously, because it's our introduction to the Joker. And after all the talk about Heath Ledger and whether or not he'd really be able to inhabit this character, and I know everybody was dissecting the trailers, to actually see him on screen as the Joker for the first time was memorable. was memorable. It was kind of breathtaking in a way, too, because he so inhabited that character. And I love that mixture of insanity and coolness. And right away, we get him showing that he means business, where someone comes to threaten him, intimidate him physically, and he does that bit with humor.

35:54Adam Kempenaar:He puts the pencil on the table, and then something really gruesome happens where he takes the guy out with a pretty swift move. And then we realize later, too, he's thought of everything. He's totally prepared. This guy who's walking into a room full of bad guys with lots of henchmen around, and he doesn't seem at first to be, you look at him as the characters do, they call him a clown. He doesn't seem to be that intimidating himself, but of course he thought of everything. He's prepared. He's got himself wired with bombs. And again, the humor of Ledger and the Joker comes through there where they have that guy who is talking to them sort of via remote on a TV screen.

36:30Adam Kempenaar:And at one point, the Joker just calls him television. That's how he refers to the guy in the television. And when another guy later says, you think you can just steal from us and just walk away? And he says, yeah. And he doesn't say it in a way that is at all a punchline. He just says, yeah, because that's what he believes. And no one is certainly going to change his mind otherwise. So I think just seeing Ledger really for the first time as that character and really feeling the weight of it and the grimness of it, but also that mixture of humor. Again, like I said, I think it was something, certainly something that sticks with me.

37:06I think the fact that all of those assorted crooks in that room with him, they're all coming at him with this macho swagger, which is so utterly irrelevant to the Joker, and he's just so bored by it. So true. He does not respond in kind, makes him even scarier in that.

37:20Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, yeah, you're so right. All right, guys. number one, your favorite Superman or Batman movie moment, Chris. All right. Well, my number one comes from Superman colon the movie from 1978. It's strange to remember now, knowing where the superhero movie has ended up, that Richard Donner's watchword on the set of this film was versimilitude. You know, he thought that this story needed to be treated with a greater degree of maybe realism isn't the word than it had been previously. You know, And we've kind of seen this taken to an extreme in Batman v Superman and other movies where there's no trace of lightness or whimsy.

37:56But that's really what Donner and the screenwriter who he brought in to rewrite Mario Puzo and Newman and all the other writers who had been corralled on this thing were going for. My scene is the balcony scene where Superman presents himself to Lois Lane on her suspiciously luxurious, large outdoor balcony of her Metropolis skyscraper apartment because he suspects that the Daily Planet readers must have some questions about me, Lois. You know, when we think about how creepy this could have seemed, this almost infinitely powerful being is showing up at her home. But there's not a hint of menace.

38:33You know, some of that is down to the writing. Some of that is down to Christopher Reeve and Margot Kidder's just note-perfect performances in this scene. And she invites him to sit down, and they have a kind of interview-slash-flirtation session that is just loaded with sexual tension. But, you know, if you're less than 12 years old or something, you might just find the scene kind of boring and talky. You know, nothing about it feels lewd or inappropriate. It's just fun. And, you know, Lois is clearly sort of starstruck being in Superman's presence, the way that that comes across. And the dialogue is very funny.

39:09How big are you? I mean, how tall are you? Well, I assume then that the rest of your bodily functions are normal? Sorry, beg your pardon?

39:23Adam Kempenaar:Well, putting it delicately, do you eat? Yes. Yes, I do. But I'm hungry. You do? Of course you do. Well, then, is it true that you can see through anything? Supposedly, Donner told Mankiewicz, if we get the romance right, then all of the other elements will fall into place. There are a lot of things about Superman 78 that I don't like, and that certainly I found boring or too comedic and stuff, especially when I was a little kid seeing it for the first time. But I think this scene is totally perfect. This might be my favorite four minutes from any superhero movie ever. It's light, it's fun, and then, of course, it goes right into the can-you-read-my-mind sort of weirdo flight across the metropolis skyline recitation slash musical number, whatever it is.

40:20But the whole prologue to that, the interview on Lois's balcony, is just perfect. Yeah. My number one.

40:25Adam Kempenaar:It really is so good, and I think it was a listener on Twitter who pointed out this scene, too. Is it either the beginning or the end of the scene? I haven't watched it in a while, where we get kind of that great trick shot where like Superman exits, but then Clark shows up or vice versa. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, he makes his excuses for why he's late and Lois replies, that's Clark, nice. There you go. So good. It's so important. That scene is so important because that was the screen test, right? That was the one that they trusted all of the actors on. And you can actually see them on YouTube right now, I think.

40:57Many people, Stockard Channing, trying it out, many people going through that scene. It is so important. It's where the chemistry is or isn't. And you can see Christopher Reeve in an early version of the suit sweating through his giant pit stains as he's trying to tone the lines. It's a lot of fun.

41:14Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Well, let's see if you can top that one, Glenn. Your number one. Well, I mean, ultimately, it shames me that Batman 66, the Adam West film, doesn't make it onto this list, only because there's no moment from that movie. The whole movie's great. I can't pull anything out. When you try to pull out, some days you can't get rid of a bomb when he's just running around the dock trying to throw a bomb away, but he keeps running into people with infants or ducks or nuns. Then you have to kind of get rid of the exploding shark. How can you get rid of the exploding shark? So I just wrote the whole movie off.

41:48It exists in my heart, but not necessarily on this list. My number one is the entire Krypton opening from Superman, colon, the movie. for a very specific reason that has to do with the comics. I always have to explain why I love that stuff so much to non-comics people because it's hard for me to convey to them what a bold and ballsy move it was on Donner's part to make Krypton look like that because the Krypton of the comics hadn't changed its look since it was introduced in 1939 or so. I mean, well, actually, technically in 1938, it was a retro-future Tomorrowland place where every building was a tall spire and everybody went around with headbands and shoulder hoops and tights and tunics.

42:34It hadn't changed in 40 years. It was kitschy, but there was no way it would work cinematically. None, because as soon as you try to put that Krypton on screen, you end up with Plan 9 for Matterspace. So they went in a completely opposite direction. They made it grand, they made it austere, they made it really portentous. Now, granted, once the film settles in a little bit, you realize that everybody's kind of wearing aluminum foil. That's a thing. But once you get past that, you notice that the first words spoken in the film are Jor-El intoning basically to the camera as he's condemning the three criminals to the Phantom Zone.

43:12He says, this is no fantasy, no careless product of wild imagination. And it is impossible to read that as anything but Donner's mission statement for this film. Exactly as Chris said, verisimilitude, right? We want you to believe this stuff. You will believe a man can fly. That's what he's trying to do there, this kind of mythic myth-making that has no tunics, no shoulder hoops, no headbands, just Marlon Brando. Marlon goddamn Brando to sell the thing.

43:44Adam Kempenaar:Right. Even if he has to do it by reading his lines off of Susanna York's forehead, he's going to sell it to you. Even if he has to do it by refusing to pronounce Krypton the way everyone else in the movie pronounces it. It's Krypton. Yeah, Krypton. No one is going to correct Marlon Brando. Yeah, are you going to go up to Marlon Brando and say, hmm, can we do that again? So that's my pick. Glenn, you are guilty of making a great choice for number one. That is a fantastic sequence and so surprising in many ways. And the fact is, it's actually a little bit creepy. I remember as a kid seeing those heads and the way they spoke when they said that they were guilty and finding it all a little bit bizarre, but in a really good way.

44:25Yeah, Krypton is not a utopia. Krypton is really presented as this austere, icy kind of forbidding place.

44:32Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Well, it's been a long time since I've seen Superman the movie. I'm not going with the colon and I'm not going with Ra's al Ghul either. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Glenn. But I'm picking the scene from that Richard Donner film where Superman saves Lois, the helicopter rescue. Now, Glenn, correct me if I'm wrong here, but this isn't part of that first night sequence you had at number two, right? It is actually. Okay, it is. It's between, say, Jim and rescuing the cat in the tree. Okay, yeah, I wasn't sure, and I wasn't sure if I missed that in your comments, but I'm just picking out that particular part.

45:05Adam Kempenaar:And I think maybe just because it is the first sequence that comes to mind for me when I think about Superman, where we really see him in kind of all of his glory there, not only saving Lois, but the way he manages to do that. And then, of course, we get that next step where the helicopter falls as well. And he's just so casual about the way he saves them, saves everybody involved in that sequence. And I think what really stood out to me watching it again today on YouTube is the grace that Christopher Reeve has as Superman, right? Like you think about Cavill and I like Cavill generally, but in keeping with his character, every time he takes off or lands, it's with this huge thud.

45:45Adam Kempenaar:You know, it's like he's angry even when he's flying. Right. And and here you just get at the end of that scene where he talks with Lois there up on the helipad. And then we get that great exchange where she says, who are you? And he says simply a friend. And then he just gracefully goes up into the sky and takes off like he is someone who is relishing a little bit the ability to do what he can do and what only he can do. And of course, we do get the great exchange there in the middle after he saves her where he says, I've got you. And she says, you've got me. Who's got you? So that humor, that playfulness, that banter that you're absolutely right comes through throughout that whole movie between Margot Kidder and Christopher Reeve.

46:26Adam Kempenaar:It's really on display there in that first meet cute disaster scene. So the helicopter rescue, my top choice. And those are our top five Superman, Batman movie moments. We'd love to hear your thoughts on the list and hear your picks as well. email us feedback at filmspotting.net.

46:53Adam Kempenaar:Remember, you can access the full FilmSpotting archive going back to 2005 by being a FilmSpotting family member. You get bonus shows, a weekly newsletter, and more. Learn more at filmspottingfamily.com. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

47:39Adam Kempenaar:FilmSpotting Archive, going back to 2005. That's at FilmSpottingFamily.com. Panoply. What up? This is Jay Valentine, co-host of the R &B Money Podcast, alongside my brother, R &B legend, Tank. Together, we've built a space for artists, executives, and fans of R &B music to reminisce and tell the real stories behind the music. I have no money. I was hood famous. They think you're going to get everybody out. We lived in a project. Real Love came out. They're hearing the music, and we had nothing. From Smokey Robinson to Mary J. Blige, B2K to Jill Scott, if you're a super dedicated R &B fan, this is where you belong.

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