In short
Costa-Gavras’s 1969 anti-fascist thriller Z, based on real Greek events, focusing on how power uses cover-ups, propaganda, and political violence; the episode compares its style to Battle of Algiers and discusses its relevance to contemporary politics.
Guest backgrounds
The episode is hosted by Adam Kempinar and Josh Larson (Film Spotting). No other guests are named in the transcript.
Key claims
Z “jolts you out of complacency” via documentary-like immediacy paired with heavy artifice; it helped shape the modern political thriller (cited as influencing The French Connection). The film’s central moral question: whether violence can ever be moral for the oppressed. The ending is framed as a “fantasy of accountability” that collapses into repression.
Notable examples
The government “blueprint” for oppression; office backroom meetings; handheld/edited riot and assassination scenes; the reporter’s fabricated newscast meta device; the character Yago’s working-class “kamikaze” scooter; flashbacks to the deputy’s wife; parallels drawn to U.S. political violence (e.g., Rittenhouse, assassinations, Jan. 6).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroduction to Z and Dissident Cinema
2:18 to 3:11
Explore the background and significance of Costa-Gavras's film Z.
“When it comes to your own food, you can walk into a restaurant, see what's being made, and know exactly what you're getting.”
Introduction to Z and Dissident Cinema
3:17 to 3:43
Explore the background and significance of Costa-Gavras's film Z.
“What kind of a show are you guys putting on here today?”
Introduction to Z and Dissident Cinema
4:00 to 6:10
Explore the background and significance of Costa-Gavras's film Z.
“But right now, we have to talk about the fourth film, and maybe the definitive title, we'll see, in our dissident cinema marathon, Costa Gavra's 1969 film, Z.”
Themes and Style of Z
6:10 to 8:08
Discuss the film's unique style and its thematic focus on oppression.
“Rome Open City was new to me, so I'm going back and forth.”
Political Commentary in Z
8:08 to 11:20
Analyze the political commentary and moral questions raised by the film.
“question they both share though is, what is moral?”
Filmmaking Techniques in Z
11:20 to 14:00
Examine the filmmaking techniques that enhance the storytelling in Z.
“And then what we see is them executing that blueprint throughout.”
Camera Techniques and 70s Paranoia
14:00 to 20:30
Explore the unique camera techniques used in the film Z and their connection to 70s paranoia.
“And I love that terminology too, that the anti-agitators, the ones who are now combating the riffraff, they're the antibodies.”
Violence and Its Reflection on Reality
20:30 to 27:20
Discuss how the portrayal of violence in Z reflects real-life events and political unrest.
“It's for getting after life, not just fitness.”
Character Analysis: Violence and Manipulation
28:00 to 30:00
Explore the complex nature of a character and his violent tendencies.
“We have a lot of those people in our society, the Kyle Rittenhouse type people in our society.”
Political Context and Assassination Depictions
30:00 to 32:30
Discuss the film's portrayal of political assassination and its references.
“made this point yet but i was going to come back to violence so i'll i'll say it here the second thing I Googled when the movie was over after the French connection was Costa Gavra Z plus the Bruder film.”
Show all 16 chapters
Relevance of the Past to Modern Politics
32:30 to 35:00
Analyze parallels between the film's events and today's political climate.
“I just knew we might not come back to Bago and it, it stood out to me.”
The Ending: A Fantasy of Accountability
35:00 to 37:40
Examine the film's conclusion and its implications for justice and accountability.
“because what would happen today in America, if such indictments were even filed, they would be ignored.”
Meta Narratives and Sound Design
37:40 to 39:52
Discuss the innovative storytelling techniques and sound design elements in the film.
“We know this because the photojournalist is now the on-air reporter, played by Jacques Perrin.”
Personal and Political Connections in Film
39:52 to 42:00
Investigate how personal stories are intertwined with political themes in cinema.
“And I do want to also mention that one other very rhetorical little flourish by Costa Gavras that I did enjoy because I think it speaks to how as a filmmaker, he isn't just trying to be provocative.”
Analyzing the Intricacies of Z
42:00 to 47:50
A deep dive into the film's sound design and character development.
“And there's no money for social services.”
Analyzing the Intricacies of Z
49:10 to 49:40
A deep dive into the film's sound design and character development.
“Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Adam Kempenaar:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
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1:29Josh Larsen:What's up, y 'all? Summer's got a different tempo. Everything's a little looser, brighter. One plan turns into another. You hear something, you stay a little longer. Next thing you know, you're somewhere you didn't plan to be. It's those in-between moments. That's where the ideas hit. Conversations stretch out. Little memories sneak up on you. Sometimes it's just about what's in your hand, that color, that chill. The new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks. Guava and passion fruit flavors with mango pineapple flavored pearls. Yeah, that feels like summer before you even taste it. Funny how one small stop becomes the best part of the day.
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3:42Josh Larsen:What kind of a show are you guys putting on here today? You're not interested in art? No. Now look, we're going to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation.
3:52Adam Kempenaar:Hey, film spotters. I'm Adam. He's Josh. Coming Friday, you will hear us talk about Steven Spielberg's Disclosure Day. But right now, we have to talk about the fourth film, and maybe the definitive title, we'll see, in our dissident cinema marathon, Costa Gavra's 1969 film, Z.
4:24Josh Larsen:Quick reminder, these film spotting marathons, they're about eliminating our cinematic blind spots. We devote them to directors, actors, genres, or sometimes regions of world cinema, and we've done more than 50 marathons over the years. For this one, our Dissident Cinema Marathon, we're dedicating it to films that depict or openly confront fascism of various kinds. We've got six films in all, and you can find that full lineup if you need to catch up with us. Also, you'll find where to watch these titles at filmspotting.net slash marathons.
5:00Adam Kempenaar:Josh Z was based on actual events that took place in Greece, shot in Algeria, takes place in an unnamed European country in the aftermath of a political assassination and a government cover-up. The film debuted at the 1969 Cannes Film Festival, where it was awarded a special jury prize. Jean-Louis Trintignant was named the festival's best actor. He plays a magistrate who works to expose the cover-up. The film went on to be nominated for, and it did win, the Best Foreign Language Film Oscar. It was also nominated for Best Picture with Costa Gavras receiving Best Director and Screenplay noms. Now, I suggested earlier that maybe it's the definitive title in this marathon.
5:48Adam Kempenaar:Certainly, when we were putting together the lineup, I had already seen Rome, Open City and The Great Dictator. So for me, this was the impetus. This was the movie that really made it exciting for me to embark on this marathon, and it did not disappoint. What about you?
6:08Josh Larsen:Yeah, that makes sense for you to think of it that way if it was completely unseen. Rome Open City was new to me, so I'm going back and forth. I was thinking about this, actually. We're not done with the marathon yet, but we do have our awards coming up, so we start thinking about best picture and those sorts of categories. I was thinking probably at this point for me, it is between Rome Open City and Z, and they do feel, that word is correct, definitive. They're capturing the pushback and really dramatization of what it's like, What's causing you to push back? What's causing the people in these movies to offer the pushback that they do, that they're able to, that they're even capable of?
6:50Josh Larsen:In that sense, these two are of a pair and probably the two most definitive titles. I also could not get The Battle of Algiers out of my head while watching Z. and we did a review, Sacred Cow, I believe, perhaps an anniversary a number of years ago on the show of the Battle of Algiers, Adam, and we're both just incredibly impressed with its docudrama style, its wrestling with actual history, and I think we're looking at a movie maybe three years later here, something like that. Obviously, some geographical connections, but at the same time, some very distinct political events that are not equated, that the two movies are going about exploring.
7:37Josh Larsen:I think it was the style. I think it was the style that really, aside from them both being political films and yeah, anti-fascist films, for Z, it is docudrama, but there were peppered in flourishes, particularly with the personal flashbacks. And I'm curious to hear how effective those were for you. more not quite experimental, but definitely clearly dramatic fiction techniques and elements and tropes. And yeah, that distinguished it from me for the Battle of Algiers. This central question they both share though is, what is moral? Is violence ever the moral choice, even if you are in the oppressed group?
8:19Josh Larsen:I think it's more directly considered in Battle for algiers and it's tangentially considered here but also very crucial to what's going on i was fascinated by that and how the movie walked that line yeah this is um mostly this movie is just joltingly alive and i think it's not only a matter of style i think it's because of some of that history you shared the fact that it was addressing recent actual events recreating them fictionalizing them in some way. I was hooked by this element early on when you see on the screen, what does it say? Something very similar to any similarity to real persons and events is not coincidental.
9:03Josh Larsen:It is intentional. And right there, you have the gauntlet is thrown. Kostigalverson and the collaborators here are not messing around and they're going to directly condemn and indict recent events in his home country. I know he spent time in France, but essentially his home country. And that gave the movie an electricity that was undeniable.
9:29Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Definitely want to get into the style some more, but you took my line exactly where I wanted to start and it's where the movie starts. And you phrased it so well, joltingly alive. That's in the style. That's in the camera work, but it's in that declaration right at the beginning of the film. And it's a declaration that we've seen phrased differently so many times in films since then. And certainly I'm sure it's been used in films before this movie in 1969, but we've never seen it phrased this way. And it tells you right away what type of film this is, what its mission is, And it is to jolt you out of complacency.
10:15Adam Kempenaar:It is to get you to be engaged and be active as a viewer in a way that you aren't used to being when you're when you're watching a movie. And the fact that it is shot in Algeria that I referenced earlier, shot there based on actual events in Greece, but it becomes then this unknown country, I think is so fascinating, Josh, because then it can take on almost this allegorical framing for any totalitarian state. And it still has the specificity required, but it can take on the general in that way. And the beginning of the film, you mentioned the cause. The beginning of the film is the government and the military here intertwined, of course, laying out the blueprint, the blueprint for how to execute the oppression of the masses, how to keep them oppressed.
11:19Adam Kempenaar:It really is the blueprint. And then what we see is them executing that blueprint throughout. And that's something we don't necessarily see the strategy, the strategy that's put forth. And the thing is, it does apply. We know we now have enough history and enough perspective to understand that this is the blueprint. It doesn't matter what the country is. It's the playbook. It doesn't matter the country, the decade, the people, the military. It is the playbook. And then we get this movie, Josh, and what Costa Gavris is doing as a filmmaker. And this is the film that essentially created the blueprint or the playbook for the modern political thriller.
12:00Adam Kempenaar:Think of all the paranoid 70s political suspense movies that are now going to follow. But this movie also layers in those other elements like journalism, the fact that we have a reporter. His ethics may be a little sketchy, right? But it's a constant thread throughout the movie, and he really is doggedly determined to get to the bottom of the story. There is that journalistic element. And it's also, of course, with the Trintan Yaw character, it is a legal procedural as well. So it has that depth to it. And that's where this movie becomes the important work that it truly is.
12:41Josh Larsen:It is an interesting combination of procedural, which I don't think you would normally associate with the other qualities, the adjectives we were using with jolting and alive and docu-drawing. It has that energy to it. And usually I at least think of the procedural as being calm, measured, maybe a static camera that is not distracting you. but there is this unique combination of the two working hand in hand, and they work really well. You feel like you are in the back rooms, not only for the military regime that's in charge and plotting against this opposition group that's trying to hold a rally, a speech.
13:23Josh Larsen:And on the surface, they say, yes, we're a democracy. You can hold your event. And then behind the scenes are doing everything to subvert it. But we're in the back rooms with those meetings, as you said, and we're also in the back rooms of the opposition party. How are we going to re-strategize now that this roadblock has been thrown in front of us. To what I was saying earlier, is it time to push back with violence now that violence has been directly inflicted upon us? We hear those meetings and exchanges. And at the same time, it never feels like a talk fest. I mean, just think about how many scenes in this movie, Adam, take place in offices.
14:00Josh Larsen:right but it is it does not it's not boring in any sense and and some of that is you know is a matter of the camera work the camera is constantly moving in an office sometimes even as well there are zooms employed and and this is to your point about getting this 70s paranoia you know i that's what i associate that technique with maybe this was like a ground zero for employing the zoom in terms of that sense of paranoia i'm sure you know certainly other 60s movies were doing it too but you get that and it does feel like there's a sense of agitation at play even if you're just sitting in an office listening to two guys in suits or a military uniform blandly discuss of how discuss how they can eradicate in their terms the mildew that is infecting the population.
14:55Adam Kempenaar:That's right. Yeah. And I love that terminology too, that the anti-agitators, the ones who are now combating the riffraff, they're the antibodies. The terminology they use is so fascinating. But the movement, and we will get into this even more with the style. One of the aspects of this film, I'd love to go back and watch and study more closely because I did just watch it today and it is my lone viewing of the film. There is definitely handheld camera work. The camera is definitely moving quite a bit. But I also think, Josh, that it's a case where I think the illusion of movement is there almost more than the camera is moving because of editing.
15:39There is still a lot of still camera and framed shots,
15:44Adam Kempenaar:but especially in those offices and stuff, it's a lot of times the editing, The camera just we get so close to these characters. But speaking of 70s, we'll take out the political aspect mostly or almost entirely, but 70s and paranoia. And I think we can also account for suspense here. The first thing I did when the film was over was Google a phrase. And what prompted it was the investigative and conspiratorial aspect of the subject matter, the cynicism, the fact that there are people fighting back, but it seems like it's going to be futile. and we'll get into that in the ending of this film, certainly.
16:31Adam Kempenaar:But as we're discussing as well, the intensity and the urgency of the camera work, the grittiness of it, the fact that there is real artifice to it, but with this immediacy of documentary filmmaking and the phrase I Googled was this Z influence on the French connection. I couldn't shake it as I was watching the movie. And this is this is two years earlier ahead of the William Friedkin film. type it in sure enough bunch of results and what comes up first in a bunch of places is a quote from friedkin's commentary on the collector's edition dvd of the french connection and he and he says this and i i think it's worth sharing because it it really does get to the heart of what we're discussing with this movie and what makes it special what what costa gavris was doing as a filmmaker.
17:22Adam Kempenaar:Friedkin says, after I saw Z, I realized how I could shoot the French connection because he shot Z like a documentary. It was a fiction film, but it was made like it was actually happening. Like the camera didn't know what was going to happen next. And that is an induced technique. It looks like he happened upon the scene and captured what was going on as you do in a documentary. My first films were documentaries too, so I understood what he was doing, but I I never thought you could do that in a feature at that time until I saw Z. So we really do have Z and Costa Gavras to thank for the French connection, which is also, I think, a masterpiece.
18:00But the thing about this film and the style, and you were getting at this, if you watch closely, there's almost nothing about the film that truly is documentary-like.
18:14Adam Kempenaar:it it is it is full of artifice it is full of experimental like moments that you would never see in a documentary it it has very framed shots it has all of this this editing these editing choices that documentarians certainly cinema verite or direct cinema filmmakers would never would never make who these choices they're just trying to capture reality quote unquote They would not make these types of choices. But the fact first, when I say almost no choices in especially those crowd scenes, I think that's what Friedkin is especially thinking of in the scenes where we have more of these these riot scenes, especially in the assassination scene.
19:00Adam Kempenaar:anything with crowds that's where it truly does feel like the camera doesn't know what's going to happen next and it's impulsive in a way that even though it's not even though you you think you you have to imagine that that coast of gavers knew exactly what he was doing and that nothing about it was unplanned and it was probably all storyboarded even it does feel like that and the camera there is very handheld and is following the action that does feel like a documentary even though not much else of the film does but that's that's the that's the genius of this film though josh is that friedkin and and us and so many other people who watch this film we watch it and we still feel like we're there we feel as if the immediacy of it it puts us so close to the action in these characters that it gives us this illusion of reality.
19:57Adam Kempenaar:It makes us truly feel like we are a fly on the wall, even though it's not trying in any way to do what fly on the wall filmmakers were doing during this period. Yeah.
20:07Josh Larsen:And that, in a sense, I think it shares very much with Battle of Algiers. The other thing that those mob scenes, those crowd scenes feels so dangerous. And that's a part of it, what you're describing. You need to do it. No! If you allow us, we want to do it here. Here you won't do it.
20:29You're listening.
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Read the full transcript
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22:25Josh Larsen:If your best finance people are doing expense reports, chasing receipts, or spending time on month-end close, it's time to get Brex AF, a Gentic finance that eliminates that work before it starts. Learn more at brecks.com slash AF. The other thing that is crucial, I think, to this verite element we're talking about, the camera catching something it didn't expect, I think has to do with the violence. And maybe my main takeaway from this in the context of our marathon, Adam, is that I think every movie we've considered so far has featured elements of political violence. Certainly, Rome Open City has extensive elements of that.
23:06Josh Larsen:I don't recall how much time we spent on that. It jumped out at me, the significance of the political violence here. And often witnesses or even the main instance, what ends up being the assassination is a very clumsy, a car, a three wheeler pulling up to the main speaker and a guy in the back clubbing him over the head and it pulling away. And it's, it's quick, It's clumsy. It's chaotic. It's the way violence in real life often happens. If you see it in newsreel footage or news footage, it's not the way violence happens in most movies. And so I think it is adding to this sense of immediacy that we've been talking about is, and there are many instances of violence later on witnesses are clubbed or there's a car, attempted car rundown and it's all handled as if just the way freed can describe theirs is like the camera happened upon it and and this also ties into what you were saying about this movie having relevance and speaking to people experiencing such things in other times and in other places um because this movie more than anything we've watched everyone we've watched has made me think about our situation in the United States right now, but really doubled down what I think is getting some attention, but I don't know why it's not getting more because it is so unique to this period is all the political violence that has been taking place in recent years in the United States.
24:42Josh Larsen:It's, it's at a pitch on like anything I've experienced in my lifetime. And I'm, I'm 52 and watching Z was, was sort of like, Whoa, you know, this is in a sense we're living a lot of this and and just to brief just to briefly go through it like what we've been experiencing the one hired goon that wants his name in the paper in the movie after the attack and he and he goes to a friendly paper and then yeah and then changes his mind later i it came to mind you know the kyle rittenhouse incident who took his his gun to a 2020 black lives matter protest this is why it came to mind i don't know all the background on Rittenhouse, except that he came from Illinois to go to Wisconsin, ended up shooting three men.
25:29Josh Larsen:He killed two men, was acquitted, but here's the connection point. Now he's like a minor right-wing celebrity on podcasts and so forth. How about since that incident, we've had politically motivated assassinations, like the killing of a Minnesota lawmaker, Melissa Hortman, we and her husband that was 2025 charlie kirk's assassination 2025 multiple attempts on trump to my deathbed adam i will never understand how there has not been more repercussions some of which is being overturned for trump supporters attacking the capitol on january 6 2021 resulted in multiple deaths dozens of injuries rampant damage to the capitol building And it's like, did that happen?
26:15Josh Larsen:You know, maybe. And then of course, most recently we have lawless violent ice abuse. And I know that's less high profile, but it's still going on in cities around the US. So all of that is just bearing down on me as I'm watching Z, Adam. And it's connected to your earlier point about how there is a specificity, but Costegarvis also by following or depicting the playbook is pointing out how these are tools and methods used over and over for people who forces groups who want to, on the facade, pretend to be representing the common people and in reality are oppressing over everyone. And I guess Z wasn't as shocking as it should have been for me because it mirrored America in 2026.
27:10Josh Larsen:And that surprised me.
27:12Adam Kempenaar:There's so much to respond to there. And I first want to say the character you're referring to, Vago, Marcel Bozufi, I think that's how I'll pronounce the actor's name. He's so good because he is so, with that smile, he is so legitimately terrifying as a character. But not terrifying in a psychopathic way necessarily or that he's doing something as an actor that is trying to scare you. It's actually that he's not really scary, that he seems like the kind of guy on the street for the most part that you probably could strike up a conversation with. And he seems he could pull off being a normal guy.
27:55Adam Kempenaar:And he doesn't seem to have an ideology in this case. But he's committed to whatever cause someone will pay him for. He seems to enjoy generally violence. We have a lot of those people in our society, the Kyle Rittenhouse type people in our society. And it doesn't matter what is being said or what condition he is in. He has a loose cannon energy to him. He's a bit of an anarchist. Yes. Yeah, that can be easily directed and manipulated. That's the thing. It's just the most fun for him to do this. And that's what's scary about him. Can I ask you a quick aside about this character? And if this caught your eye at all, what to make of it.
28:43Josh Larsen:I know where you're going. Yeah. Some odd touches where they seem to imply that he is, if not gay, a predator.
28:51Adam Kempenaar:It's not implied. It's directly asserted, Josh. Okay.
28:55Josh Larsen:Yeah. And there's the moment where he goes into a guy's playing pinball after he's been, you know, just roughing.
29:02Adam Kempenaar:He comes on to a younger guy playing pinball. And the bizarre comment he makes. The first scene is the guy up on the balcony who he's looking up at. And the other guy says to him, you have a one-track mind.
29:24Adam Kempenaar:that's alluding to him looking up at that guy and that's right wanting him sexually there's an there's a moment where i believe the implication is when he's talking to the press guy the the guy who's down in the press room when they're running the paper he he beckons him like to get away for a moment i think the suggestion josh is like they're going to go for a sexual tryst and he says he can't and then he also says something to the magistrate about that raping raping he's a boy scout leader he says he says he committed rape okay so so this is this is all over the place and i'll i'll only add that that when i because i haven't i haven't made this point yet but i was going to come back to violence so i'll i'll say it here the second thing I Googled when the movie was over after the French connection was Costa Gavra Z plus the Bruder film.
30:19Adam Kempenaar:Cause it was just another thing that was in my mind as we see reenactments in different angles and takes on the assassination. You were, you were talking about this and, and, and the violence and, and those, those scenes, he's making a film about political assassination. assassination and since we see it multiple times and from those angles and there's discrepancies in the versions of events, even though it's so much clunkier than we might remember our vision of the JFK assassination, I figured the Zabruder film had to be a reference point. And so I was curious if it was and if he patterned it after that in any way.
30:54Adam Kempenaar:And I found this 1970 interview where he says, and after you read his comments, you, or I felt a little bit like an idiot because Because he says, you know, yeah, I'm doing press in America and everybody in America brings this up. But over in Europe, we don't think about the Zabruder film. We don't think about the JFK assassination in that way. He doesn't use these words, but it's basically it's not really in our in our consciousness in that way. But Josh, in that interview, something that caught my eye is is the reporter asks him about the depiction of that character. OK. And his homosexuality.
31:29Adam Kempenaar:And he actually tries to argue, Costa Gavras tries to argue that they did the opposite, that they tried to show that the police were using his homosexuality against him, that that's why he was under the thumb of the police and that actually he was a victim himself. But they didn't want to show him as too much of a victim because after all, he is the guy who assassinated the leader. I didn't get any of that from the film. So I'm just I'm answering I'm answering what you're saying, at least to say that Costa Gavris doesn't think that's what he was doing in the film. But I'm with you that it's an it's a it's a very odd choice, but seems to be rooted in in some reality anyway, in terms of the character they're basing him off of.
32:14Josh Larsen:I mean, yeah, I figured that was perhaps a possibility and he is a potential fall guy. So in as much as the police state thinks that would discredit his character, I could see that, you know, which it sounds like, uh, Custodius was, was getting at, but yeah, just anyway, didn't mean to derail it. I just knew we might not come back to Bago and it, it stood out to me.
32:36Adam Kempenaar:So yeah. Yeah. But I do think, uh, in its own way, a chilling, a chilling and very effective performance. I did want to comment on on the relevance because I was thinking a lot during these scenes, in particular about Alex Preddy and Renee Good and the violence and not only January 6th, Josh, but but the absence of repercussions. Yeah. And we embarked on this marathon because of its relevance. And I only lament that until the very end, the oppression here seems so quaint by comparison. I actually really think that because in this time and place that we're seeing depicted, there there seemed to be still some vestiges of integrity and ethics and the rule of law that you were referring to.
33:29Adam Kempenaar:how at the beginning they get the run around and it's clear that it's the run around. They don't want them to have their permits and they don't want them to be able to put on their big demonstration in the hall and stuff. But the fact that they feign a process at all and let them put on any kind of talk in any kind of hall and that the police are outside at all and they provide any protection is kind of crazy. The fact that you have corrupt government officials who are, yeah, they're trying to eliminate witnesses in some cases, but they're pretty inept at it. And they actually do worry about political fallout based on how events might be portrayed in the media based on perception as if they can't completely control the narrative, Josh, or the news cycle, which doesn't exist back then the way it does today.
34:20Adam Kempenaar:The news cycle, it won't just dispose of this narrative in 24 hours and or it won't just further divide oppositional factions and effectively be irrelevant. And then most significantly, again, until the very end, which I still do want to talk about most significantly, this film shows us that there is a single honorable magistrate who actually can stand up to an entire system, including the military and file indictments. And that's the part that to me feels so quaint that, that feels like we, we are rudderless today compared to honestly compared to what this movie even
35:08Josh Larsen:gives us for most of its running time. because what would happen today in America, if such indictments were even filed, they would be ignored. Nothing would happen. It would just be like, so what? I'm going to do what I want to do anyway. And yeah, you don't want to be myopic about this and just look at it through an American lens. But there were some shocking distinctions between the two situations. Yeah. Do you want to talk about the end? Because that was such a whip, like in a good way, a whiplash where I thought, well, isn't this a nice fantasy of accountability? That's what it feels like.
35:47Josh Larsen:It felt like a fantasy of accountability. And I vaguely knew some of the background, the historical connections, but I just wanted to experience the movie. So I didn't do a lot of historical research beforehand. So to my mind, I thought maybe this is how it went down in Greece, perhaps. And yeah, the brilliant, I mean, just such a rug pull, obviously audiences at the time, it would be a different experience, right? This is fresh history. They know what really happened that after these indictments, the military just, you know, canceled elections and lowered the hammer. And there was this brief moment of apparent responsibility.
36:25Josh Larsen:um but after that um and and maybe this to the point of what we've been talking about maybe this is the scariest analogy to our current situation when elections are at this point still around the corner in the united states and if we're looking at the playbook and seeing this as a playbook you start to feel paranoid by asking questions about such things but you also after watching movie like Z feel entirely justified asking those questions.
36:53Adam Kempenaar:Well, what happened here with the second election, the reelection, they only came down harder. And that's what we're told here in the end. With the very end of this film, not only do we get the rug pulled out from under us, do we understand that it was just perfect phrase, a fantasy of accountability. but also we get that list of all the freedoms all the liberties all the creative forms of expression that are then subsequently taken away in the wake of this it's like okay the government then says we got pretty close to having our our reign ruined we can't let this happen again and so we have to come down even harder.
37:45Adam Kempenaar:And so the meta aspects of that to actually have it be a case where the letter Z, what the movie's called, but the fact that it was this reference to the man, the deputy that they're making this movie about, that we end on it, that that's banned, that that expression is banned as part of this at the end, Josh. That is very telling. But I even love the fact and here's here's another costagavra choice that certainly is not something you'd see in a traditional documentary how about the fact that we're told all of this yeah the forum is great really happened through this newscast of the reporter that is clearly not really a newscast
38:34Adam Kempenaar:it's not something that's on the TV of the time, some national...
38:40Josh Larsen:We know this because the photojournalist is now the on-air reporter, played by Jacques Perrin. So we know this is, yeah, a completely fictionalized newscast. It's for us.
38:48Adam Kempenaar:It's a fabricated newscast just for the audience, for Coastal Congress's audiences, right?
38:55Josh Larsen:It's so great. And the extra meta touch there, which I think is clever and piercing, is this reporter, This on-air host at this point, played by Jacques Perrin, is talking about, well, this opposition leader after the military retook control was murdered. This one committed suicide. This one is in prison. This one is deported. And then it shifts to a screen, and the on-air news host is no longer seen, and his name is listed among those who were arrested. So just this sudden shift of like, it's like, it's just the hammer is like slow, slowly. It's like a compress more like crushing, crushing, crushing.
39:38Josh Larsen:And then even the guy who is just telling us the basic facts has now been imprisoned for telling us the basic facts. That's right. Yeah. It's really a journalism crush too. Exactly. A meta flourish that the movie concludes with. Yeah.
39:52Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. And I do want to also mention that one other very rhetorical little flourish by Costa Gavras that I did enjoy because I think it speaks to how as a filmmaker, he isn't just trying to be provocative. But he wants to get at some of these larger questions and wants to make us think about some of the underlying issues here. How about the fact that the person who who is partly responsible, that's definitely clear, but who effectively becomes a patsy, which usually happens in these scenarios, the character is named Yago. what is he always commenting on is just that he's just this working stiff who can barely make the payments on his vehicle and the way he he lays over the scene of of Iago with his three-wheeled scooter which they call a kamikaze the fact that as he's driving that and he's trying to get back to the scene after pulling off I can't remember the exact chronology Josh but he's trying to get back to the scene and it's part of this assassination that he was directly involved in.
41:05Adam Kempenaar:He's driving the vehicle with Vago in the back. We know about him that he's just all about trying to make payments and he can never get out from under that. He's the working class oppressed that the deputy and his people are fighting for and And that the government and the military are activating, using their fear tactics to keep them under their thumb, right? And Costa Gavris uses the deputy's speech playing over the top of him engaged in this activity, basically showing us that he's going against his own best interests by being involved in these nefarious activities.
41:50Josh Larsen:incredibly intricate sound design there because we're hearing the speech at this point it's not even cross-cutting we're with the driver i i getting them the mix yago we're with yago complaining to someone about his little three-wheeler i think the i think the passenger is like why don't you get that muffler fixed and he's like oh i can't afford the payments and over in the background while they're talking we hear via loudspeakers the deputy played by uh Yves Montand talking precisely about the fact that the country's budget largely goes to the military. That's it. And there's no money for social services.
42:28Josh Larsen:So to your point, I'm saying the same thing you said, but I just want to make, to delineate the intricate sound design. It's not like a blatant cross-cutting that makes it seem obvious. If you're not really listening to both, you might miss it. But it is such a pointed use of the sound there that's really brilliant. Can I ask you about my one reservation? Yeah. And see if it maybe worked better for you. I appreciate the impulse to make not so much the political personal, but to bring the personal into the political with the Yves Montan character, the deputy, the speaker, the figure who is, does end up being assassinated with these flashbacks, hinting initially at his infidelity.
43:17Josh Larsen:And then we have flashbacks where we are introduced to his wife played by Irene Pappas. And I, again, like what the attempt was there, but I did feel like it disrupted the procedural elements, the procedural flow. And even some of the filmmaking there was, I mean, it is a little more experimental than just a straight flashback. There would be like an image. It's a little subliminal in that an image would jostle the character to a memory in a specific scene. And again, on its own, well executed, love the idea. But as it fit within the rest of Z, I guess the movie might have been purer for me without that.
44:08Adam Kempenaar:I can see that. And I guess my response is I'm pretty neutral. on it, Josh, because I can see your response to it. And it isn't necessarily one of my favorite aspects of the film. I see how it could be disruptive. And it felt that way to me in the moment. But as the movie went on, I also felt as if it made sense in the filmmaking style because of some of these meta choices that we're talking about, because of some of the more experimental aspects of the filmmaking, just the, for lack of a better term, the harsher editing choices that he makes, the more disruptive editing choices that are made by Costa Gavras throughout.
44:53Adam Kempenaar:It ended up feeling more of a piece with the film overall, whereas in the moment itself, it was jostling. There's no doubt about that. But you also said something that I think ultimately speaks to how some of the shots are maybe more effective than others. And that is, it does make it personal. It makes it, it's important for us, I think, to not just see the deputy as the deputy and to see the wife as the grieving wife, but to understand somehow, even if it's just in those quick flashes, to understand that they had a life together, that that he was a father that he was a husband that he that he may not have been perfect but but he was a husband he was a father and that and that there was something between them that was deeper than what is alluded to because even remember how in the movie there are those moments where it's the questions from the press even the the line there's that line that we hear twice where someone says something like he even says to to one of his the people with him we're having a little bit of a struggle.
46:04Adam Kempenaar:And we as audience members then go, oh, maybe they're headed for a divorce or something. It's very easy to start jumping to conclusions. And so then getting some of those flashes gives us a little more depth to the relationship.
46:17Josh Larsen:I agree. And I'm all in favor of the instinct. And I think it also connects with the violence question too, is this violence, it doesn't just happen to someone. It happens to a specific human being with a history relationship stories and to that extent i'm completely on board with giving us some of that so that when he does end up after attempted surgeries dying from this below the loss feels more to your point than just a figure and that's the same for the people who have died at the hands of ice in the last year here in the u.s they also have stories and people who love them and histories. And that sort of stuff can get lost in news reports and it can get lost in movies that maybe don't attempt to take the care that Z does on this front.
47:10Adam Kempenaar:And I'll just add the jostling effect. We come back to it, the moment of the phone call, how violent it feels when we come back to it multiple times when she gets the phone call and the way that's edited and the way she turns and reacts when that phone call happens, When that the call that says your husband's been hurt, you know, and she knows that they finally got to him, that that he he may or he is probably going to die and that that her life has changed forever in that moment. She may never see him again. It makes sense that it would it would feel that that violence. So, yeah, it's it's definitely worth worth discussing, as is Z overall.
47:52Adam Kempenaar:Z is currently streaming on the Criterion channel, HBO Max, available VOD. If you've seen it, we would love to hear your thoughts about the film. You can share those thoughts with us, feedback at filmspotting.net.
48:06Josh Larsen:On Friday's show, we will be talking about Steven Spielberg's Disclosure Day. And I'm just vibrating from seeing it last night, but I don't want to influence Adam in any way. So that's all I'm going to say about it. But we'll talk more about Disclosure Day on Friday. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.
48:28Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.
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From the publisher
Adam and Josh reach a definitive milestone in Filmspotting’s Dissident Cinema Marathon with Costa-Gavras’s Oscar-winning 1969 masterpiece, Z. A thinly veiled account of a political assassination and subsequent government cover-up in Greece, the film stands as a foundational text for the modern paranoid thriller.
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