In short
Part 2 of a Pol Pot series (Finn vs. History) covering Saloth Sar’s rise from French-educated intellectual to Khmer Rouge leader, Cambodia’s civil war, and the U.S. bombing campaign that helped drive rural Cambodians toward the Khmer Rouge.
Key claims
Pol Pot’s early life is portrayed as “blagging” and adapting ideas from French intellectuals; Sihanouk’s political maneuvering and later alliance with the Khmer Rouge boosted Khmer Rouge growth; U.S. secret bombing of Cambodia (Operation Menu) killed mostly civilians and fueled Khmer Rouge recruitment; Pol Pot’s rule emphasized “purity,” collectivization, forced marriage, bans on alcohol/gambling, and paranoia leading to purges.
Notable examples
Sihanouk’s 1955 Sangkum landslide (83%); the 1958 Royal Palace parcel-bomb crackdown; 1969 Nixon/Kissinger “Operation Menu” napalm/carpet bombing; 1975 Khmer Rouge entry into Phnom Penh, executions, and forced evacuation of the city.
Guests
Horatio Gould (co-host/guest).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOPol Pot's Early Life and Charisma
1:40 to 3:00
Discussion about Pol Pot's early life and initial charm.
“We are enjoying the delights of the genocide in Cambodia.”
Cambodia's Political Climate
3:00 to 5:26
Exploration of Cambodia's changing political landscape and Pol Pot's involvement.
“He's one of history's greatest blaggers.”
King Sihanouk's Role
5:26 to 7:40
Analysis of King Sihanouk's influence and abdication in 1955.
“who see them as thick, and they're not wrong.”
Pol Pot's Political Aspirations and Marriages
7:40 to 9:50
Details about Pol Pot's aspirations, marriages, and personal life challenges.
Political Manipulations and Elections
9:50 to 11:40
Discussion on electoral manipulations and Pol Pot's early political career.
“So the charming boy is starting to turn slightly now.”
The Fallout of Political Setbacks
11:40 to 14:00
Exploration of the consequences of Pol Pot's political frustrations.
“I think maybe his mum, who is one of the queens, is meant for her, is meant to kill his mum.”
Ozzy Osbourne and Cambodian Genocide
14:00 to 14:59
Discussion of the cultural backdrop of the Cambodian genocide and its dark connections.
“Yes, anyone with blue hair, anyone with more than one earring.”
The Fallout of Political Setbacks
15:39 to 16:11
Exploration of the consequences of Pol Pot's political frustrations.
“We just moved into our new house and I didn't realize just how close we were to the neighbors.”
Pol Pot's Rise in the Khmer Rouge
16:37 to 17:46
Exploration of Pol Pot's ascent to power within the Khmer Rouge and his ideology.
“I'm a communist, keep me in here actually I love it Yeah.”
The Jungle as Ideology
17:47 to 19:08
Discussion on how the Cambodian jungle influenced Pol Pot's views and communist ideology.
“I thought it was quite recent, but it's not.”
Show all 23 chapters
Pol Pot's Name Changes
19:09 to 21:10
Insight into the multiple aliases of Pol Pot and their significance.
“Now, as his status begins to grow, his personality starts to grow as well.”
Cambodian Civil War Begins
21:11 to 22:38
Overview of the Cambodian Civil War and the political landscape changes.
“He just picks Pot because it's like alliterative.”
American Involvement in Cambodia
22:39 to 28:00
Analysis of Nixon's secret bombing campaign in Cambodia and its implications.
“if I'm going to break away, I'm going to go China.”
The Madman Strategy: Nixon and Trump's Playbook
28:00 to 29:46
Explore the concept of using madness as a political strategy, particularly in the context of Nixon and Trump.
“is that if I'm a mad man, I'm a mad man.”
Operation Menu: Bombs and Breakfast
29:46 to 32:08
Delve into Nixon's secret bombing campaigns in Cambodia, the impact on civilians, and the absurdity of the operations named after meals.
The Khmer Rouge and American Bombing
32:08 to 35:16
Understand how American bombing campaigns inadvertently strengthened the Khmer Rouge's position in Cambodia.
“So Uncle Roger is just your puppet basically.”
Pol Pot's Rise: From Saloth Saar to Leader
36:00 to 41:02
Examine Pol Pot's rise to power and the establishment of the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia.
“Well, not to us, but to him maybe it is.”
The Rule of Pol Pot: Ideology and Control
41:02 to 42:01
Discuss the control and harsh ideologies enforced by Pol Pot's regime, including collectivization and state marriages.
“who's now the chairman of the CPK, tours the Marxist-held areas of Cambodia, which he calls the Liberated Zones.”
Self-Criticism and Reflection
42:01 to 43:16
The hosts engage in humorous self-criticism while reflecting on their previous discussions.
“Because I thought, I thought about the piano I used to own once.”
Vietnamese Troops and Khmer Rouge Strain
43:16 to 45:44
The episode discusses the complexities of Vietnamese influence in Cambodia and Pol Pot's orders during 1973.
“Because there's always an ethic tension throughout all of this.”
Fall of Phnom Penh and Immediate Aftermath
45:44 to 48:46
The hosts detail the Khmer Rouge's takeover of Phnom Penh and the subsequent rapid evacuation of its citizens.
“He's in the Forbidden City and he's living like a kid.”
The Death March Begins
48:46 to 53:34
The discussion focuses on the forced death march initiated by the Khmer Rouge, leading to mass casualties.
The Death March Begins
54:28 to 55:53
The discussion focuses on the forced death march initiated by the Khmer Rouge, leading to mass casualties.
“Sweet Green's fall harvest menu is back with seasonal favorites dressed to impress and made to be devoured.”
Transcript
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1:31Welcome back to Finn vs. History. I'm with Horatio Gould. Jungle is scary. This is part two of our Pol Pot series. We are enjoying the delights of the genocide in Cambodia. The mixed grill of the Cambodian genocide. The mixed platter. This is a chicken skewer, a pork chop, a steak, and some lamb. How do you mean? How juicy the topic is? Yes, it's delicious. It's absolutely delicious. Mixed grills is the best thing you can order. This is, yeah, Pol Pot at this point, sweet young man. Charlie's charmed by him. Yeah, I'm charmed by him. I'm charmed by him. He's got a scissor kick in his locker. He's getting milked regularly.
2:10Because he doesn't... And he doesn't understand communism because it's boring. Yeah, I mean, it's relatable. It's relatable. I don't like that book either. Because it's... I think it's dull. And I don't think it really works. Yeah, me and Pol get on. We both think Marx is boring. We both think Marx is boring. and you know he's got a hell of a scissor kick i don't think i can do a scissor kick but i like trying i always try what i like about pole is he's not afraid to fill in the gaps no i'll vibe it out yeah i get it he trusts himself i get it yeah yeah you know and it's like charlie like you know with this job and as a freelancer in general wouldn't you say advice for other freelancers that you just you say you're ready for the job either you're not and you learn on the job yeah that's what i'm doing or you don't learn the job and just do the job you try your best you see the job badly yeah yeah you're a bit of a pole pot actually in many ways but this is quite it's quite the dynamics of this history is quite similar to the dynamics in here yeah in that you know you have colonial france and you have cambodia back there i'm paul you've got no no you're not paul what am i you're a guy under a tree waiting for a go you're a rice farmer that's all you know right and we put you in front of three screens yeah yeah and asked you to produce a podcast you probably wouldn't have been killed in the genocide because it was it was mainly intellectuals it was anyone who was vaguely even a tall intellectual and they would have said you're actually we're dead because i'm not a threat no yeah you'll be like you're pure he sees you as a pure yeah agrarian simple folk and that's what everything should be going back to that yeah anything else is a perversion polpot we left off he's not called polpot yet he's called saloth sar now he's been in france and he's been picking up every kind of fifth word of some intellectuals in france what what they're saying.
3:49But he gets it. I get it. I get it. He's all in class and falling asleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. He's one of history's greatest blaggers. Yeah. He arrives in Cambodia and French colonial authorities collapsing. This is just at the tail end of the first inter-Chinese war. King Sihanouk, Jungle Blair, is manoeuvring to consolidate power. The Isarak are fighting for independence. The king has dissolved the Cambodian government. He's ruling by decree now and he's imprisoning people without trial. he's getting a bit naughty he's also the only politician anyone in cambodia knows because he's not a politician yet he's about to be he's the only political force yeah that anyone in cambodia knows because most people don't know what political forces are they all just know the god king so he's he he has a huge amount of power in that sense because he literally is the anything close to a cult personality the only person that the rural peasantry have any concept of is him.
4:44He's the king god. And genuinely, they think that if he kills an ox in the right way, then they'll get more rice. Right. So that's kind of their level. Right. Right. It's Charlie's level. Right. So the country is sort of erupting into a civil war. There are civilian massacres. It's pretty bloody from the start. From the off, really. Si Anuk reaches an agreement with the North Vietnam, the Ho Chi Minh, to withdraw troops to Cambodia. And he proclaims independence. Because the North Vietnamese have been helping the rebels. The North Vietnamese, yes. And now there is a Cambodian Communist Party at this point, but that's kind of a splinter cell of the Viet Minh, or as Charlie called it last time, the Viet Minh.
5:23Yeah. But again, they're being held back by the Vietnamese who see them as thick, and they're not wrong. Yeah. So, blah, blah, blah. After returning home in 53, Pol Pot joins the Democrats, which is a sort of centre-right party, if that even exists. Now, he's due to marry someone called. Here we go. I'm going for it. No run up. Soing. Sean Malley, who comes from a wealthy background. A lot of vowels in the middle of Sean. Yeah, there's three vowels there. S-O-E-U-N-G. Soong. Soong. Soong. It's a cargo past. Soong. The Doppler effect. Soong. Soong. Soong Malley comes from a wealthy background, and before she agrees to marry, she wants to see Pol Pot become a politician.
6:06Fair play. Yeah. Respect that. Respect that on a woman when they just want to see. Yo, let me see. Go on then. Let me see. I'm hedging my bets here. He said there's going to be elections in 55. And Pol Pot, I guess at this point, is thinking, oh, I'm going to, maybe I'm going to become a politician. Pol politician. Pol politician. Well, I read somewhere, which wasn't in the book, that Pol Pot is short for political... Potty. Something. It is actually that. Political potty training. Yeah. So you know how someone has to follow the president around with a briefcase with the nuclear codes in it. He's also got a travel potty with him, handcuffed to him at all times.
6:47Well, that's Putin, isn't it? Putin has a potty. Yeah, they take the poo out of his bin. Putin's got a travel potty with a potty in it. Yeah, that he poos in. Is that right? Do they also have a nuclear codes, like, You don't want to get them mixed up. Come on, quick, we need to respond. Oh, no, I've just put my hand in shit.
7:08Right. So this is where King Sinuk really starts to become a fascinating character. As you said in the last episode, I think he's probably the most interesting guy in this story. And he's very, how do you say it? Like verbose. No, what is it? How you say... How you say it's English... Articulate. Articulate, yeah. That's ironic.
7:32So he abdicates the throne in 1955. And bear in mind, the rural farming people are like what you can do that but you're a god who's gonna make the rice grow yeah where's my ox gone sure hello that's just a flavor of what going through cambodian people's heads probably i don't know i don't speak the language but i love the sound of it so he abdicates the throne because he's like i need to get in there i want to get in the mix politically because again this is a very young political culture and so he wants actual power and he's been sort of made a um figurehead so he forms the popular socialist community which is known as the sang come now sang come is more of a kind of come sang coom sang come sang come sang come uh it's more of a vibe than anything else sure and it and it's probably the most wishy-washy centrist party you can imagine right in that basically he's like yeah whatever you want i'll do brilliant like it's full he's trying to make a party so broad that no other party can exist yeah he's the center ground has never been wider it's at the whole country it's everything so it's like it's the stop the boats um open for pets yeah you know open borders stop the boats nhs for pets whatever yeah everyone everyone's invited uh everyone has to be trans yeah you know it's a free-for-all against gay marriage it's against gay marriage but everyone's trans well i guess there's no gay marriage if everyone's trans the organisation is an attempt to dissolve political parties across Cambodia and it wins unsurprisingly 83 % of the vote in the 1955 election which is probably that's a landslide it is a landslide I imagine there's a bit of fruity fiddling going on as well Gerrymandering appears again hello there my name's Gerrymandering what are you doing here it's Cambodia you're in the IRA you're up to your fucking tricks again what's Gerrymandering doing down here the democrats lose heavily and then this is apparently, according to one of San Jose's friends, it said that the dual setback of, so he doesn't win the election, which means that his wife leaves him for Siu Nukes number two.
9:43So he's getting sexually bitter. So now this sets back, the dual setback touches off a cycle of sexual and political frustration that would bitter Pol Pot for life. So the charming boy is starting to turn slightly now. Yeah, because the woman he fancies has been cucked. And he then marries his mate's sister. Poonary. Sorry? Poonary. Kew Poonary. Poonary. Poonary. Poonary. Kew Poonary. Kew for the Poonary. It's Bonnie Blue. He marries Kew Poonary, who is five years older than him, and one of Cambodia's first female graduates. So she's like a blue stocking, I guess. And she's infertile. And he hates that because he likes, he wants kids.
10:32Right. I reckon he could have made a great dad. I think so. He's smiling. Yeah. He's got a vibe. Get a photo of him up in his clobber. He looks cool. He's like a cool dad. Yeah, look at that. Look. Yeah. There's a lot. I see a lot of these guys at playgroups. What? Like a fucking sort of hips of dad. Yeah. Clapton dad. So he, his wife, Punani, would later suffer from severe schizophrenia. Right. Anyway, Pol Pot becomes a teacher, which is quite funny to imagine Pol Pot as your teacher. Not just because he's a genocidal maniac, but because he's also incredibly thick. So I don't know what he's teaching people.
11:07Yeah, but he's one of the smartest people in Cambodia. I guess so. Yeah. And it was said to be easy approachable and always dressed in a short sleeve white shirt. So yeah, all his students seem to love him. Yeah. Mr. Pot. Or Mr. Sarloth. Mr. Sarr. Mr. Sarr. Saloth. Saloth Saloth. He drives a black citron, which is obviously quite bourgeoisie to do. So he joins the Labour Party in Cambodia. So this is, I guess, Atlee's sister party. Yeah, yeah. But in 1958, a parcel bomb explodes at the Royal Palace. Yeah. And so Sihanouk uses this. I think maybe his mum, who is one of the queens, is meant for her, is meant to kill his mum.
11:47But she gets someone to, what is it? Is a parcel bomb exploding at the Royal Palace? Could that be a code word for doing poo in your pants? Code word? Yes. Put it in a sentence. I've made a parcel bomb in my Royal Palace. A parcel bomb has exploded in my Royal Palace. Yeah, I think my makes it less subtle. But what emotions are you saying? A parcel bomb has exploded in the Royal Palace. Are you trying to tell us that you've done a poo in your pants now? Yeah. Were you looking for a euphemism to tell us that you've put your pants? because last time we recorded you had a boner during one of the records so it wouldn't make sense if you've now shat yourself no I've now got a parcel bomb in my palace right okay yeah we talked about boners and then the thought of a boner gave you a boner so yeah the thought of shitting yourself it's like the brown sound but it's brown speak yeah if you talk about pooing yourself Charlie will poo himself he's so easily manipulative my pole potty is full yeah you've done a pole in your potty right so yes a parcel bomb exposed to the royal palace I get that doesn't mean King Sooner shush at himself but thank you for clarifying that Charlie the audience need to know they're very very thick so we haven't placed this actually no where are we going to place well we shouldn't 58 is not the key year really the key year is 75 but we'll end the episode in 75 right so it's after Black Sabbath's debut album yes 1970 yeah and it's before is it before Ozzy Osbourne killed 17 cats?
13:27When did Ozzy Osbourne kill 17 cats? I think he killed them in what year? 2015? What? Yeah. That recent? Yeah. 2015 he killed 17 cats? Oh wait hang on it might not have been then. It can't have been that. When did Ozzy he's been sober for a while hasn't he? Murder his cats. In the 80s. Early 80s. He shot dead. yeah so basically he was having like an episode while being super high and paranoid and he Sharon had loads of cats I think 17 in the house yeah which is too many yeah and he went around and killed all of them Christ so Sharon stays with him after Ozzy Osbourne kills all her cats she did she loved him a lot yeah oh yeah but I have you know I have a problem my wife puts too many like cushions that aren't needed on a bed yeah and I you know I would love to just sort of stab them all but then I think I'd be in trouble so Ozzy Ozzy Ozzy is about this is sort of prime Aussie yeah I guess in the 70s in the 70s it's the it's the back the backing track to the Cambodian genocide is Black Sabbath I mean yeah it kind of is now they think that his mum was targeted scenic's mum it killed several people but not anyone important not my words that's on the script so this he uses this as an excuse to clamp down on anyone who's vaguely leftist communist me this.
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15:45We just moved into our new house and I didn't realize just how close we were to the neighbors. That's when my friend told me about Blinds.com. Blinds.com isn't a medication, but it can improve how you feel about your home. Customers who shop at Blinds.com experience excellent customer service, from consultation to installation. Side effects include increased privacy and better sleep. Talk to your partner today and see if Blinds.com is right for you. Visit blinds.com to order your free samples The future head of state under the Khmer Rouge Gets beaten, undressed, photographed in the street by police After his left-wing newspaper became popular Yeah, so he lists publicly 34 known or suspected leftists Among them is Salazar And so he flees Phnom Penh for the jungle Right And this is important because he loves the jungle He loves it I'm a communist, keep me in here actually I love it Yeah.
16:43I'm a commie, keep me here. In 1960, Saloth Saar gets appointed to the third highest position in the party. But this party is now known as the Workers' Party. And then in 62, the leader of that party, Tu Samuth, he gets killed. And it's unclear as to whether that was carried out by Sian Luke or Saloth Saar. Oh, interesting. But Pot is chosen to succeed as leader. Now in 63, they then spend the next seven years in the Cambodian jungle. A lot of Pol Pot's life is hidden in the jungle. He loves it. Yeah. And basically, this kind of whole story is sort of the jungle book. If Pol Pot is King Louis.
17:17Yeah. I want to be like you. He's sending a lot of orders from the jungle. He doesn't really know what's going on. Ooby-doo, I want to be like you. But he can't. Yeah. Just like the monkey can't make fire, Pol Pot can't actually do communism. Sure. It's a liberating experience because they love the jungle. And the jungle is pure in Cambodian mind. Yes. The town is perverted and dirty. and the jungle is pure because it's just rice. So the party gets renamed the Communist Party of Kampuchea. Now, where does Kampuchea come from? That's the ancient name. That's an ancient name for Cambodia, I think, which is not kombucha.
17:50It's not kombucha, Charlie. But where is kombucha from? Kombucha is an ancient thing, I think. I thought it was quite recent, but it's not. But it's trendy now. Yeah. I thought it was made in the 80s. It's foul. Have you heard about a kombucha mother? Yeah. Oh my God, it's rank. Have you talked about that before? Oh, it comes from one state. stinky thing oh the stinky like fucking placenta in a jar what is it it's type it in it's like a rat king it's a rat king but it's it looks like something that's a female a female thing so it looks like a placenta yes in a jar no absolutely not it's like piss and custard in a jar and you feed your you feed your kombucha with it it's like a it's like a sourdough starter so it's alive It's alive, but it's in a jar and it looks like pissy bread.
18:38Yeah, 2000 years old. Fuck that. It's a Chin dynasty. It's Chinese ginger beer, but it's gross and it's in a jar. What's the oldest kombucha mother? Yeah. 2015. What? There's one that's been continuously cultivated since. 2010. Christ. Oh, right. Fucking horrible. They love the jungle. They love jungle. They love jungle. They love jungle music. Jungle is massive. and the lack of access to like markets and capitalism is like I like this you know it's country life yeah but it's also it's like Chris Packham is hosting it yeah Junglephile Junglephile but you know when you leave you leave the city for like a week you think oh this is great isn't it great the second week goes past this is fucking boring horrendous they never have that yeah he sees the kind of primitive living as a blueprint for what Cambodian communism would be yeah and so the Khmer Rouge is officially formed in 1968.
19:35Now, as his status begins to grow, his personality starts to grow as well. He's a good public speaker, and he has quite sort of cold speeches, but he becomes very paranoid and suspicious, and so he starts changing his name constantly. Right. Quote, it is good to change your name. The more often you change your name, the better it confuses the enemy. If you preserve secrecy, half the battle is already won. Right. So his various aluses include Pook, as in Pookie. You know that video of the... Hey, Pookie, yeah. Should we get that up? The fucking guy who gets his wife to dress up. And he goes, Pookie's looking so gorgeous tonight.
20:12Pookie TikTok. Oh, God. It makes me sick. So this is ballpark. Fucking, I feel sick every time I watch this guy. I feel genuinely sick. I can't stop watching it, though. It is a car crash. Back from a week-long work trip, and Pookie, my drop-dead gorgeous wife, is wearing a striped sexy outfit. God, it's the fucking wettest bloke I've ever seen. in hand, which makes it even better. That was the health surprise, babe. Well, he's always doing just like little sweet things for me. So I had to do something. It's all of the little things. Christ. So that's him. As a couple, that is a kombucha mother.
20:44Okay. So Pook, Hay, Pol, 87, Grand Uncle, Elder Brother, First Brother, 99, Fem. Those are his different names. 99. 99. He's a bit like Prince. Yeah. She's got loads of aluses. Yeah, the dictator formerly known as Pol Pot. Yeah, he's just changing it every time. 99. No, he just calls himself 99. He calls himself Flake. You can see. But then when does he settle on Pol Pot, or does he never settle? That's 1970. Right, okay. Pol Pot means royal slave. No, Pol means royal slave. He just picks Pot because it's like alliterative. Yeah, this is the interesting thing. People wonder why he's called Pol Pot, and it's like, no, it's not clear, but it seems like the idea is so stupid.
21:22It's like calling yourself Tic Tac. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I like minty fresh stuff. Tic Tac. But when dictators rename themselves, there's nearly always some sort of narcissistic, megalomaniac reason behind it. So it's quite hard to explain Pol Pot because it's so senseless. It just rhymes. That genuinely is because it's illiterative. It doesn't imply he's this fucking amazing. It's Boss Bemp. Yeah, it is. Literally. It is that. His name is Boss Bemp. Yeah. It's ridiculous. So in 1968, the Cambodian Civil War kicks off. Right. And this is basically the beginning of this. It's a bad decade for Southeast Asia, you'd say.
22:05It's quite repetitive, this bit. Yeah. It's the same old shit. Yeah, change the record, mate. Okay. Now, King Sihanouk is constantly playing off America, the Chinese, the Vietnamese, and the differing factions within Cambodia to support all them. So he breaks off diplomatic relations with the USA while simultaneously violently cracking down on communists within Cambodia. Because also he's got the Chinese to think about because obviously if you break off from America, you have to subscribe to one of the big dogs, right? He's trying to go alone. So he's like saying, look, America, if I'm going to break away, I'm going to go China.
22:41So it's like he's balancing the big players. Yeah. Communism versus capitalism. So Lon Nol, I know he's a big figure, but what is he? He becomes prime minister, but does Seenuk make him prime minister? because no Lonkno is a fascist military organises a fascist military coup fascist? yeah well yeah he's like I didn't think it was that exciting is it well it's not fascist but like it's right wing military coup okay I'm listening yeah so and this is always the case when you have a communist story you'll have a geezer like this yeah what are you laughing your head off nothing do you want to get long military poo that's what I was laughing at you were laughing at right wing military poo I didn't think I should tell you but that's what I was laughing you laughed out loud by yourself because you thought of the phrase right wing military poo so Lon Nol he, Sinuk puts him in charge, no he's a nationalist, long roll, stop put type in the fucking thing Lon Nol Lon Nol now he's Prime Minister of Cambodia I got very confused at this bit because also there's so many names Yeah, but Lonno is an important figure.
23:56I know he's important, but I don't really know what he's doing at this bit. Basically. I think he's a nationalist who Sinanuk then decides to put him in charge. And then he eventually orchestrates a coup. Okay. But I don't know if it's a right-wing military poo or just a normal poo. When has Sinanuk become a politician? We've done that. We've done that. Yeah. He's a politician now. And then he makes himself king again at some point. Si Anouk re-establishes ties with the US because he needs military support. I was just laughing. At what? Right wing military poo. Are you joking? You remembered it and you laughed harder.
24:37Fucking hell. So difficult this podcast to do. It's so difficult. But then what do you expect? We have literally a rice farm and producing it.
24:50You know? and there are comments people are getting annoyed at the lack of history what do you expect what do you expect literally fucking planting rice back there laughing at the idea of a right wing military poo we're in the back seat he's driving yeah and he's pissed he's pissing himself at the idea of someone with a big hat and medals doing a poo is that what it is it's more that the poo is really right wing and loves like so as it goes down as it goes down into the water yeah it's an angry fighty poo right okay Okay. It's a fighter poo look. It's a... Modern mole is very stupid as well. Are we saying that like, you know, choose love is like sloppy diarrhea?
25:31Yeah. Right. So a firm stool does a right-wing military poo. Yeah. And a loose stool is left-wing. It's a hippie. It's a hippie. Hippie.
25:42Yeah. Christ. Yeah. Christ. I guess you could make a spectrum. Christ. oh fucking hell is that what's just come to Charlie's completely gone he's got his head in his hands he can't he can't breathe Charlie's completely gone and he's just thinking about the phrase right wing military poo and he's gone and we're completely gone oh Christ right let's history come on history Lon Noel Seadwick is overthrown by Lon Noel while he's on holiday He goes on holiday. Does he go to Beijing, maybe? I can't remember. He's traveling around Europe. We should say that in 68, the Khmer Rouge had tried an insurrection, but it fails.
26:30Right. And this kicks off the Civil War. So seeing it goes in his gap year, ironically, not to Cambodia. Yeah, the reverse gap year. Inverse gap year. Yeah. He goes to France to look at the toilets rather than have someone build them in Cambodia. Yeah. And he's basically, he's quite commonly going on holiday and saying, when I get back, I'm still a leader. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then he goes back and Lon Knowles ousted him. Yeah, can you save my seat? You come back, someone's sitting in it. For fuck's sake, yeah. So Knowles is now the leader of Cambodia and he orders the Vietnamese communist forces to leave Cambodia.
27:06And at this point, the Vietnamese communist forces who are at this point fighting the Americans and the French in South Vietnam are kind of also allied to the Cambodian communist forces in the jungle. And so Pol Pot, head of the Khmer Rouge, he gets North Vietnam to send troops to aid the Khmer Rouge, which prompts the South Vietnamese and the US to intervene against them. So Cambodia gets sort of dragged into the Vietnam War. And this is the key bit, right? It's the American and US bombing campaign. So this is now, I absolutely love this bit. This is March 1969. Mark 69. Nixon, who get Nixon up, Charlie, are one of the great characters, which we'll do a proper episode on Watergate and everything.
27:49Nixon, Milhouse Nixon, Richard Milhouse Nixon. Yeah, yeah. He basically has this theory, him and Henry Kissinger. Kissinger is his secretary of state. He has this theory, which I think Trump's doing a bit, is that if I'm a mad man, I'm a mad man. I'm crazy. I'm crazy. Then no one will mess with me. No one will mess with him because they're like, we don't know what he's going to do next. Yeah. So Trump's actually taking a lot out of the Nixon playbook. Right. It's a Kissinger thing, right? But was Nixon that erratic on the wall? I mean, there was this. No, but it was calculated. He goes, if I do something mental, they're going to think I'm a madman.
28:24Like random. Basically. Yeah.
28:29I'm going to bark like a dog. Bad dog, right? So Nixon authorizes in March 69, the secret bombing of Cambodia. How secret is it? When you drop more bombs on Cambodia than when dropped in the entirety of World War II. Well, yeah, I guess there's a secret until they start. Yeah. But it's codenamed Operation Breakfast. Right. Right. Keep them guessing. Yeah. So for breakfast, the Cambodians have a lot of carpet bombing for breakfast. Napalm for breakfast, right? He then does Operation Lunch, Operation Snack, Operation Dinner, and Operation Pudding. Right. And they become known as Operation Menu. Right.
29:03So it's basically an entire tasting menu where every course is napalm. Yeah. Mmm. Mmm. Oh, spicy. So an off menu. Can I have some milk, please? Do you reckon milk is the antidote to napalm? If you're on fire, pour some milk on it. But again, lactose intolerance to people. So it's very, very cruel, actually. When you put it in those terms, it is very cruel. Because if you napalmed Britain, we'd just drink some cow's milk, we'd be fine. But obviously, napalming the Southeast Asians... They've got no recourse. They haven't built up a tolerance to lactose. anyway without congress's knowledge nixon drops 110 000 tons of bombs on cambodia and laos right behind their back and this is aimed to hit all the vietcong bases down the ho chi minh trail which we talked about last time ho chi minh trail to go into cambodia which is not in the war so they can move loads of supplies to south vietnam yeah south vietnam um and that's really keeping the war going and uh this is also kissinger right yes so kissinger who get kissinger up fucking 40 years of american foreign policy yeah he's a titanic figure look at look how old he's still alive no he died in 2023 look how old he is he's probably the oldest man i've ever seen there's an evilness to how old he is what's the peanut guy peanut guy jimmy carter jimmy carter yeah he was up there as well yeah so jimmy carter is a bit late look at him he's stubborn but didn't he get a lot of uh hate did he do people hate him but he's a complicated figure and we should do an episode on him i'd love to do that but probably the most complicated foreign policy decision he makes is the bombing of cambodia most complicated most controversial but he also organizes um uh nixon and mao that's kind of yeah and that's one of his biggest successes of bringing china and the idea of real politic which is basically being like pragmatic and diplomatic relations is you've got to bomb cambodia it's realistic yes what you've got to deal with what's in front of you so that's probably one of his big boo-boos biggest boo-boo is bombing cambodia yeah yeah um so the campaign is aimed to hit all the vietcong bases but it basically just entirely kills civilians and a lot of why the u.s is doing this form of is they just don't want to waste u.s lives are the big thing that's so controversial back home yeah just trying to they're trying to win a war with just bombs yeah but it's like you're bombing a jungle it's like yeah so you're punching a pillow i don't exactly yeah it's like trying to change um duvet cover yeah it's just i don't fucking yeah yeah oh you do i will die if i do this you do it task rabbit task rabbit change the bed change the sheets i can't do it i can't do it get task rabbit in please wipe me down wipe me down wipe my bottom and change the sheets thank you oh my task rabbits could take fucking ages god i'm sitting here with a shitty ass who's drying on my bum i've had a right-wing military poo it's disgrace this service is terrible zero stars um so operation freedom deal follow followers the tasting menu when they begin carpet bombing cambodia to eradicate the now allied vietcong bases and the khmer rouge forces the u.s dropped more bombs on cambodia in this period than they did in japan during the entire world war ii and so it drives thousands of rural cambodians into the hands of the khmer rouge who framed the bombing yeah as a sort of proof of foreign evil i mean they don't know what's going on they're just in their village they've all their family been in the village for thousands of years and now fucking hiya they're uncle roger rice farmers yeah i can't say that i can't call them that is that hello hiya is what uncle roger says when he when they haven't cooked the rice properly
32:43now i used to write for uncle roger okay before anyone kicks off i used to write for Nigel Ung's character Uncle Roger. Get an Uncle Roger video up. So Uncle Roger is just your puppet basically. Well there was a moment I did I wrote for a bit of his videos and I did have to write it in the accent which was fun. I enjoyed it. Yeah Nigel Ung asked me to write racist jokes that he could say about his own people. I was happy to do that. I'm a contract killer. I'm a mercenary. I will right for anyone i can't say those jokes but he can yeah well not to his audience i can't say to my audience because they're fucking wrong ones but anyway what the cambodians say when the b-52s bomb their rice farms is hiya and then when they get rid of the americans they go foo those are his catchphrases right anyway so um uncle roger's not in this story i should say but maybe his uncle was maybe
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33:47he's malaysian uncle roger which does this border thailand i believe thailand yes so it's in the area i want to say let's have a look so that might be i think malaysia yes yep i'm right look at that starting or growing your own business can be intimidating and lonely at times your to-do list may feel endless with new tasks and lists can easily begin to overrun your life so finding the right tool that not only helps you out but simplifies everything as a built-in business partner can be a game changer for millions of businesses that tool is shopify shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10 of all e-commerce in the u.s from household names like gymshark rare beauty and heinz to brands just getting started shopify has hundreds of ready-to-use templates that can help you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand's style.
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36:01iconic spaces that inspire personal training backed by real data unlimited group fitness classes from yoga and pilates to strength and conditioning elevate your post-performance ritual with saunas steam rooms cold plunges and more everything you need to lock in and unlock your potential at equinox start today at equinox.com so the b52s uh ruin all the rice and um in june In 1970, Saloth Saar officially adopts the revolutionary name Pol Pot. Okay, so this is the Heisenberg moment. He puts the fedora on. Yeah. I am the one who knocks. Pol Pot. Pol Pot. It's not a badass name, Pol Pot. No. Well, not to us, but to him maybe it is.
36:50Pol Pot. Pol Pot. Because there's other names, all of them had names that rhymed as well. Yeah, but 99's pretty good. They're like Lang Bang. Yeah, I'm 99. Quite like a gangster. yeah 99's cool so now this is the great this is the great fuck up so King Sihanouk at this point has been playing off the Americans with the South Vietnamese the North Vietnamese his own the own fucking squabbles in 1970 he declares support for the Khmer Rouge yes which is his biggest boo-boo yeah he goes all in with them Blair and Iraq it's Blair and Iraq and he goes in order to try and get rid of not long Noel or whatever basically because of the the ground support the Khmer Rouge has the only way that Sihanouk can see him getting rid of Lon Nol is allying with but he creates so it's a strange bedfellows I like this he creates the National United Front of Campuchaya which the acronym is FUNC and so Sihanouk is now Sihanouk's the leader of the FUNC he's got a bass guitar yeah and he so Pol Pot comes back to Cambodia from being in I guess Vietnam or China and he sees now Sihanouk is allied with them, the Khmer Rouge membership grows from 6 ,000 to 50 ,000 because as you said last time or earlier this episode, Sinuk's the only one anyone knows.
38:07Yes. So they're using him as a figurehead. It should be stressed that at this point, literally no one in Cambodia knows who Salazar or Pol Pot is. And they don't for a long time. No, until two years after he's in power. Yeah. And they don't even really know what the Communist Party is. No. They just know there are some people who don't farm rice and they have these big things that look like leaves with words in them. Yeah. they read i don't know what that is so it's a bizarre uh combination of having like a former god king allying with communists yeah it's a strange thing yeah to you know have a communist god king and all these people really care about is what does this mean for my rice sure he also creates the royal government of national union of kampu chair grunk which i guess is like grime and funk yeah i don't know what that would sound like uh and so lon noel declares that he himself is the creator of the khmare republic so at this point it's like it's a fucking free-for-all everyone's making stuff 1972 pol pot goes on tour he's on tour he's on tour what happens what goes on tour stays on tour yeah um we've just been on tour we've just been on tour so we can relate to this similar death toll um similar level of ideas being transported pol pot is starting and the khmare ruse is starting to control particularly the eastern part of cambodia which borders uh vietnam and in these areas they're starting to get enact their ideas so party membership of the khmer rouge is restricted to poor peasants so if you're a student no thanks or a middle peasant yeah and if you're a student you have to basically renounce your degree to become a member you've seen those big uh arab rice dishes where they flip the the yeah the bar and they all tap the spoon yes he's just getting it tipping on his head and then take the lid off and we'll start with the bottom yeah that's kind of what it is so you have to be stupid to join yeah yeah the thicker you are the safer you are the more you know politically malleable basically any sort of intelligence is seen as a form of kind of corruption corruption of the human nature the purity of life is in the jungle and everyone should be self-sufficient everyone should basically farm for each other.
40:20It's a view of this utopia that it's just like everyone, it's a collective, there's no family, everyone's a peasant. What if we didn't need money, man? It's that. John Lennon imagined. It is John Lennon imagined. Yeah. But the imagine is bad. It's terrible. Yeah. I'm imagining it. It seems fucking awful, John. Oh, imagine it sounds great. We're going to do it. Oh, dear. Oh, Christ. Take it back. Imagine there's no money. Two million people are dead, John. What do you think about that, John? It is actually the closest to imagine. of any of the communist societies. And it ruins the song. Yeah. Because he didn't say about, imagine we're fucking throwing babies at trees, did he?
40:56Not to give a little spoiler alert for the next episode. Anyway, so Pol Pot, who's now the chairman of the CPK, tours the Marxist-held areas of Cambodia, which he calls the Liberated Zones. And in this, he enforces bans on alcohol, gambling, intermarriage. What's intermarriage? Now, this is quite funny. He says that the Communist Party, the authorities should decide who gets to marry who so he pairs up old blokes with yeah terrible pairs with like young women young women like 13 year olds with like a nine-year-old you guys you're married it's arranged marriage this is gonna be perfect yeah you two work together yeah that'd be fun you guys do it yeah and if you if you uh cheat on them then you get uh killed or yeah so it's state arranged marriages yeah crazy um all land is collectivized equally among peasants and you have to, so people start killing their cattle rather than seeing them become communal property.
41:50Yeah. Because he bans all personal property. Yeah. So you have to attend these meetings where you engage in self-criticism. Right. So you go around and you say, I've been, I've not been very good today. Right. Because I thought, I thought about the piano I used to own once. Something like that. That's awful. You should be killed. No. Anyone else? No, no. The self-criticism is all right. Well, yeah. Confession. yeah it's like it's sort of it is it's catholic it's like um communist confession i thought about eating something that wasn't rice today okay you're absolved maybe pol pot led these sessions was exempt from critique now that's kind of cool yeah now there's an instance of i think his number two yang saray he was asked to criticize pol pot in these sessions and already come up with his i think i think you think about think about everyone else too much you don't look after yourself enough perfectionist he is yeah he is if i have one floor is i'm a perfectionist yeah Sorry.
42:43Yeah. That's basically what he says. Yeah. So, I mean, if we're going to do that now, if we're going to do some self-criticism now, I'd say I've been, maybe I've been a bit too racist this episode. I've been talking too much about poo. You, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and just not, you know, all the other things. Not understanding anything. Not understanding anything. Yeah. We should have self-criticism sessions. Yeah, we should. Or just Charlie. I have a rock on again. Right. I've been talking too much about poo and I have a rock on. Vietnamese troops begin to leave Cambodia because the relationships between the Viet Cong and the Khmer Rouge start to strain.
43:16Because there's always an ethic tension throughout all of this. Which is confusing, but it is there. Now, by 1973, Pol Pot orders the collectivization of all villages to control food and resources. And then, yes, this is what I was saying, villagers start slaughtering their own livestock to resist that. 60 ,000 people flee the Khmer Rouge territory. So they then go to the city, even though they don't like the city because they like the jungle. as we said in last episode the big jungle versus city that's the good versus evil so then this growing anti-Vietnamese sentiment leads to purges of Khmer Rouge members who are accused of having Vietnamese sympathies I don't know Vietnamese tendencies I don't know what on earth that means so Vietnam has been involved in rebel actions for the last 20 years and they've only just started to be pushed out so now the Cambodian nationalism of the movement comes to the fore and this kind of anti-Vietnamese faction really comes true because the vietnam have had had a hand in this the whole way through and they keep saying yeah there's going to be a revolution in cambodia but we'll do it and you'll be part of yeah they basically want to annex cambodia into vietnam yeah they're kind of expansion only now is vietnam kind of being ousted and cambodians are now to run riot sort of and uh it's operation tasting menu it's napalm so by uh they go for phnom penh the capital in 73 but it fails and by 74 Lon Knoll's government he's useless Lon Knoll he is useless I think he had a stroke at this point yes I think he had a stroke type in Lon Knoll stroke to Google because there's a lot of there's a lot of good stuff about Lon Knoll he was also describing himself as not a particularly intelligent man but they all did yeah that's what's so funny is that they have interviews with the Khmer Rouge and they're basically being like yeah listen they picked me because they thought I was one of the clever ones but I had no fucking idea what that book meant.
45:09I had no idea. Don't blame me. Christ. That's good though to admit. He had three major strokes. It's vulnerable. Well, they're being vulnerable yeah, but they've been vulnerable after they've killed 20 % of their population. Right, he had two major strokes and so he doesn't know what's going on either and that government collapses. He was a thick guy before he had the strokes. He has a stroke and he's like, I've got no. But he stays in power at Lon Noel. So he has a stroke in 1971 so the height of the Civil War and 1974. And then the government collapses as well as his right side. the government collapses the right side of his face collapses um uh so the khmer rouge are starting to expel urban populations from the cities that they control yes uh now they then camp outside and they start firing rocket rockets into pnom penh um do you know where they're getting the rockets from yeah the chinese chinese the chinese are all times funneling um funding arming the khmer rouge through the ho chi minh trail when does polpot meet mao in the forbidden city that's is that when he gets in i don't know because there's a an interesting meeting between the two of them google actually mao says just a word of advice no he that's when he's already in power but polpot is going to china quite a bit yeah um so they're firing rockets into phnom penh and phnom penh has swelled with the population because everyone's run away from the mad yes jungle yeah and phnom penh is by far the biggest city in the country it's the real kind of the only city yeah sort of the only major city what other charlie can you google major cities in cambodia i mean sure there's probably some now but at this time it's sort of like it's really the center of anything that's batang bang is a province and uh yeah yeah kong yeah there's a few but um penampin's the real center um and lon know when he flees he goes to hawaii didn't know that and later settles in California.
47:00Ding, ding, ding, ding. Really? Okay, there you go. So he fucks off. So Xi Nuka's in exile, we should say. I think he's in Beijing. He's in the Forbidden City and he's living like a kid. I mean, he's a king, I guess. Anyway, so in 1975 in Phnom Penh on the 17th of April, these men wearing all black, they're basically boys, they're mainly young boys, wearing all black with little flat caps and these scarves called a, uh is it crammer uh my dad brought me one back from his um not sex tour of cambodia sure um i fucking need to make it seem like i was on a sex tour yeah yeah there you go can you google the kramer i think it's called not kramer not kramer from not michael richard it's called crammer i think it's called that becomes the the uniform so that they all come in the Khmer Rouge enter Phnom Penh finally 1975 this is a big this is one of the big cinematic moments yeah and everyone is cheering everyone's like yeah war is over the kind of the forces that have walked in yeah they've lived in a village their whole life they've never been to a city ever no and their boys their fucking frontal cortex hasn't developed their sense of even basic human empathy hasn't really developed no and they're walking through so it's like they have no idea what's going on so everyone's happy because the government forces have left the khmer rouge stormed pnom penh um they execute about seven eight hundred people uh who are like collaborators with the old regime everyone's cheering great here we go within two hours two hours two hours pol pot orders everyone in the city to fuck off yeah right fuck off i mean it's so immediate it's phenomenally how yeah it's because you normally think phenomenal you'd think this would be over a couple of weeks but it's straight away straight away right fuck off everyone out everyone out everyone out it's a house party house party I'm the neighbour yeah I've come back right stop this it's four in the morning out it's a laxative yeah everyone out everyone out everything out it's a right wing military poo yeah it's a left wing poo yeah everyone out so bear in mind there are two million people that have and a lot of them have come there because they've escaped the jungle and so he now he says that there's going to be some US airstrikes the tasting menu's coming back so they're like okay well fuck off he says you'll literally be like three days you'll be home he then forces two million people he empties the hospitals he empties old people's everyone out you as well fuck off I'm about to give birth unplug that get out start walking pregnant women fuck off get out get off the bus fuck off I want to sit there sort of reverse rosa parks he's the reverse rosa parks yeah he reversed rosa parks the entire city um i sometimes do i have you ever been so hung over that when you're you're in the priority seat on a bus or tube and then like uh an old person gets on and you're like tell them to fuck off you think i'm i think i'm more hung over than you are old so i think i should get to stay here um they ask you to move and you go yeah one second and you go in your pocket and you give them one of these yeah yeah of course just want to fuck off yeah no actually i got my blue badge do you want to see it there is mate there's my blue badge keep walking sorry keep rolling keep rolling i don't want to see any more from you didn't say disabled i said old no my one was disabled oh was it yeah i've done i've thought about it to preggos as well what trimester are you in i got 70 year old pregnant woman so like a miracle right what in a wheelchair wow asking for my seat triple threat and I'm going triple threat keep fucking rolling man don't look at me like that roll over there love you've already got a seat well yeah that's yeah I guess that is true yeah but then are you in the fold down bit I'm all I'm spread across all three parts lying down fuck off love I'm actually just got my foot like this in the area so no one could be there right okay it's just like fuck off anyone comes near it's like the iron dome I'm fucking kicking anyone in the head.
51:06Right, I see. Okay. And I'm not even hungover. No. Fresh as a daisy, 12 hours sleep.
51:14So the Khmer Rouge basically force, start a death march where they just start. So everyone's got to go to the jungle. We've had enough of these people. I feel people could throw around death march a bit, but this really is a death march. This is as much of a death march as you can get, really. Because also, I should say, it's the hottest part of the year. Okay. It's the hot season in Cambodia, April 17th. Everyone is forced out. Bar me. Preggos, oldies, wheelcherries. Yeah. Everyone. Everyone. On your top, go on, get out. 20 ,000 people die just by the roadside from exhaustion and heat. Women are forced to give birth and they go, can you point me away from the corpses?
51:58Yeah. It's pretty gnarly. They give birth and then the baby has to go on the death march. Yeah, you walk as well, mate. you're slouching come on get walking yeah um he completely guts the city so why is he doing this um i think we want to get into that next time but he's doing this because the city is bad and he wants everyone to be in the jungle because the utopia is a rural agrarian society so get out everyone needs to be a rice farmer now right uncle roger's taken over right the khmer rouge conquer phnom penh and this marks the end of the cambodian civil war but the beginning of the mixed grill I mean it's it's fruity as hell this is real meat for the base I've sat down my scalp has been taken away yeah and an absolute plate of surf and turf arrived I mean this is this is true crime for the boys this is Ted Bundy for the boys this is about as Bundy as it gets yeah I'm in front of me I've got a pork chop I've got a fried egg in there there's some barbecue ribs there's a steak there's a fried egg in there there's a fried egg in there it's protein rich there's some chicken wings I'm I'm dining out on this and there's absolutely no hint of fibre I will have I will get piles shitting like a horse doesn't even notice it if you would like to have your piles pop out well that'll be on Monday's episode join us next week it's all on the Patreon now no it's not because we have a problem with editors it isn't we've been on tour so don't join the Patreon cancel your Patreon don't cancel Patreon's got a bonus episode tomorrow on Friday Charlie's got a boner right now um and uh next week we will dig into our delicious meat platter of cambodian genocide and it's it's it's up there with the worst things that ever happened yeah it makes the rape of nanking look like child's play look how the japanese uh teacher yeah exactly and uh that's all next week yeah on our lovely romp through the jungle and polpot's khmare rouge our asmr episode on the K-Shields.
54:01This is ASMR for some of the worst people in the country. Yeah. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time for Pol Pot's Naughty Phase. Goodbye. Bye. Bye.
54:27Fall has never looked or tasted this good. Sweet Green's fall harvest menu is back with seasonal favorites dressed to impress and made to be devoured. Warm roasted sweet potatoes, crisp apples, maple glazed Brussels and crave worthy flavors in the autumn harvest bowl, maple glazed salmon plate and roasted bacon Brussels side. The season's most desirable menu has returned to Sweet Green featuring fall's best dressed. Make your move. Order on the Sweet Green app. Push your limits. Train with precision. See the results. At Equinox, that's high-performance loving. Iconic spaces that inspire. Personal training backed by real data.
55:08Unlimited group fitness classes from yoga and Pilates to strength and conditioning. Elevate your post-performance ritual with saunas, steam rooms, cold plunges, and more. Everything you need to lock in and unlock your potential at Equinox. Start today at equinox.com.
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From the publisher
Cambodia is served a ten course tasting menu of fire from above, before Pol Pot tells an entire city to f*ck off
The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.
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CHAPTERS:
00:00 - Communism is Boring 04:11 - Political Potty 08:05 - Pol Gets Cucked 13:44 - I’m a Communist Keep Me In Here19:11 - Rightwing Military Poo 25:00 - Napalm Set Menu31:20 - Leader of the FUNK 34:22 - Imagine There’s No Money 38:06 - Lon Nol has a stroke 42:07 - Everyone Out
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