Can You Separate The Fart From The Fartist? (With Bebe Cave) | Great Artists: Picasso

25:07I love the video of her dancing I don't think she might have killed him. No, I just think she's... I don't think she's taking it that badly. So, Picasso's granddaughter is the first time where I suppose his legacy is really compromised. That's not true. So many of his wives wrote books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His wife doesn't write books. Yeah, exactly. He's not had sex with his granddaughter, so she's objective. Aha, that's true. So he's not Gandhi-ing her? No. Right, no. Doesn't give her the Gandhi treatment. Quote, he submitted women to his animal sexuality, tamed them, bewitched them, ingested them, and crushed them onto his canvas after he had spent many nights extracting their essence.

25:49Once they were bled dry, he would dispose of them. So that's Picasso's granddaughter. But your new show that you're doing in Edinburgh is about being a muse and wanting to be a muse. The whole idea of the show, if I'm not wrong, is that it's about what happens if you don't even get picked to be a muse. Think about all the ugly women who didn't get ingested into canvas. Yes. And you talk about it, it's awful how you treat these women. But think about the ones who don't get that. They would still be looking at the women who... Well, because I think that actually as women, even though we know that this kind of treatment and, I don't know, like boiling down to your essence and then being extracted or whatever.

26:23We know that it's kind of toxic, but at the same time, it's all we know. So therefore, it's difficult to not desire your own objectification in a way. It's difficult to not want to be amused when that's seen as the most important thing. Or is it just that it's still, even though you're still being liked? Exactly, you're being observed. You're being desired. Yeah, being desired and being observed and that makes you feel like you're real. It changes the Fritzl case entirely. Well, exactly. You're still being liked. Well, he liked me. He liked me. At least someone out there's got my back. More than some people could say.

26:57Someone out there's blown my back out. If somebody's really talented and somebody's seen to be a great artist and he picks you and he takes you seriously. You're picked. You got picked. Yes, you're picked first. No, but it does make you probably feel like you probably are capable of great things yourself. So in 1927, Picasso... That's how I feel that Horatio's picked me. Right, I see. Picasso, so he's Picasso, age 45. In 27, he meets Marie-Thérèse Walter, who was 17. Ooh! That's you ripping paper at the moon. Ooh! Now this is game, okay? Game recognized game. He meets a 17 year old outside a department store in Paris and says, I am Picasso.

27:37You and I are gonna do great things together. That's his classic line. That's what he messaged me on Instagram. Grab your coat, love, you pulled. It's essentially that. Now, Marie Therese is the real, is probably the worst of the abuse, maybe? I think so. I suppose you see abuse. Yeah, the alleged abuse. Not Mother Teresa, Charlie. Not Mother Teresa. He does not sexually abuse Mother Teresa. So he, yeah. Has there been another one? Sorry? Are there any more Mother Teresas? Or is it like Ganty? It's not like the Dalai Lama, no. It's not a hereditary sort of. Yeah, so he repeatedly reinvents himself, as you said.

28:11so at what point does he is it basically when he's like in his 20s that he starts just being the Picasso that we recognise when does he unlearn when does he stop doing this incredible it seems like his 20s or even younger than that it seems like pretty much from the off so he has his so called blue period 1901 to 1904 which follows the suicide of his close friend he shot somebody who turned his proposal down so this is artist Karls Kassam Kassam in 1901 he proposed to a model in Paris. Nice. She rejects him. He draws a pistol and fires at her. The bullet missed but knocks her to the ground. He thinks he's killed her so he kills himself.

28:51That's an amazing... So you were saying that you fucked your engagement a bit. Yeah, yeah. Not quite as bad as... No, no, no. This is... That's a real botched job. Yeah, you've really fucked your engagement up. How did it go? Well, I... Well, she's fine but I'm now dead. I imagine that happened all in about 10 seconds. Yeah. I'd love to see that 10 second video. That's incredible. No. and she gets up and is like fuck Christ so anyway but this inspires Picasso's kind of more sombre period so okay so these are these are still quite conventional but it's still quite conventional quite sort of blue dark tone it's the 1900s so it's right on the turn of the century the surrealism hasn't fully come in yet no and cubism will break through just after this sort of around 1907 1907 cubism he is one of the inventors of there's a school yes co-founder A Cubist school, which is a slur in my head.

29:43He's a member of the Cubist school. Rather than depicting objects from a 2D normal viewpoint. Depict them as cubes. No, you just see it from loads of different perspectives, right? Right. Or maybe it's kind of influenced by sculpture, isn't it? So this is more Picasso that we don't understand. So what year is this? This is more like the Citroen Picasso. Yeah. That doesn't really do anything for me. What, this stuff? Yeah. Why not? Because there's no people in it. It's just guitars. I think it's probably just because maybe it's influenced so much of art through the decades and then even advertising.

30:18I think the colouring and everything like that. For some reason to me, it feels a little bit like an advert on the tube. Yeah, it's commercialised now. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. It reminds me of those graphic design people, you know, the people that have become really popular in like sort of adverts for like oat milk that have really big bodies and tiny heads. A bit like your pocket bill. Don't point at him and say that. That's so rude. You can point with your finger just like your body. Like a Picasso. The massive bodies and tiny heads. Yeah, yeah. Sharp point as well. To me, it screams a little bit like 2010's millennial graphic design.

30:51This is the first time you've been on the pod since your fat Elvis comment. Yeah, you struck again. Yeah, a second comment has hit the... I love that fat Elvis thing you did in your poster. No, it's just Elvis, baby. I think growing up To be fair That was one of the funniest things Funnest things that happened I really am sorry about that But I think growing up Is the process of realising So flippant We all think that we're good people And I actually don't ever think About anything Before it comes out of my mouth And I'm only learning To do that now I was going to say something Very rude to him yesterday And I thought to myself No that's going to happen That turns out They mean it When your mum tells you You have to think Before you speak I actually never did that And I really apologise I always think before I speak Yeah famously Famously Okay Always thinking Sorry about the fact Should we have a look You look in great shape now.

31:37So, Charlie, just, what's this work called? My baby. It's called your baby. My baby. Did you draw my tits? Did you draw her tits out? Did you draw me my tits out? Charlie! I'd say that looks like a baboon with tits, is what I would say. But is this her smelling? Is this the moment she's... Why am I naked? Why are you drawing me my tits out? Wait, wait, you say she got her tits out when she smelled the shit. Possibly. It's very Picasso-esque. Yeah. Meaning I hate it. That's fine. We'll make sure we get some close ups for the people at home. But that's, so that's Charlie's. You've given her a real monkey face is what I'd say.

32:15That's what I'd say. But you know, you can't, you can't rush out. No, you can't. My boobs look good though. So now he had a very weird relationship to animals, Picasso. So he had a goat was walking around his house. He was fascinated by goats. Esmereld of the goat. Yeah. He couldn't believe his luck. Is it such a common theme among quirky male artists? Goats? No, they have animals wandering around their houses. I wonder if it's like... Affectation. It does feel like such an affectation to me. So he found an injured owl and kept it. And then he had a whole thing. So throughout the 30s, he basically has this alter ego of a minotaur, which is kind of like half man, half bull.

32:52And then he would depict the minotaur engaging in kind of these violent, erotic encounters. Yes. And then people now interpret that as, that's like him basically raping his girlfriend. But again, it's just a personality with a rapist. but it's justifying, isn't it? If you say that half of you is a monster, like a mythical creature that cannot help his own bad behavior. But if you're aware of it enough to put it in a painting, then it's like, but it's still justifying. It would be much braver to say that you, the man, the human being has done wrong things. It's just like, Oh, you murdered someone.

33:21You go, Oh, sorry. It's because half of me is. I'm a calf cow. Sorry. Sorry.

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36:29Yes. There was an age gap. Love is love. Yeah, love is love. All right. But he took her as a mistress, either that or he had another mistress. Wait in the car. either he had another mistress right and at some point they discover each other uh and they confront each other and he then makes them fight like pokemon in his studio oh that's good isn't that the most like artistic thing he said it was the greatest moment of his life well it would be yeah that's incredible who won do we know i don't know do we know i guess maybe because it's proof that two beautiful things can love you at once that they can but it's going back to you saying about being desired exactly that's the male version Exactly.

37:12You know, a woman wants to be painted, a man wants two women to fucking fight over her. Exactly. Slapping their eyes out. So that's Marie Theresa and then one of the other women. I can't remember who. I mean, you both obviously thrive off of people watching you and you think that you would get to - Not women though, not women. Well, I'm sure that there are some women. It's not as cool when there's two Star Wars kids fucking lightsabering each other. I was gonna say, I was gonna say. They've got big sticks. I was gonna say, when do you get some of your patrons to fight? You could do one of those video simulations that they do like, you know, 10 rhinoceroses against like a thousand Roman.

37:45So you could do your patrons against... One woman. One woman. Well, they'd look at me and they'd all just fall over. Oh, no, no, no. So he had the blue period. After the blue period, he had the rose period, right? Yeah, where he painted loads of Harlequins. He was supposedly really happy. Yeah, so do we know why he got happy? Is it because he had two women fighting over him? Yeah, I guess he moved on. Well, he would be quite happy. So let's have a look at some of the... When does he start getting into that classic Picasso style that we know. What time is that? So the Blue Period, the Rose Period, and then I guess he's in the kind of golden age of, you'd argue, Paris artistically, potentially, the 1920s.

38:19Going to Montmartre. Going to the Amelie Cafe. He must have been having a great time. Yeah, in Midnight in Paris, he goes back to this period. Yeah. Picasso, Hemingway. It's the only film that Horatio will re-watch. Midnight in Paris. he does. He talks to me about it as well. Picasso is such a hoarder. He doesn't actually sell many of his paintings. he just keeps all his paintings around. Apparently he doesn't even let his fingernails go to waste because the Spanish are all superstitious like that. Doesn't leave any body hair around. Where's he putting it? Hey? Where's he putting it all? I don't know.

38:51Much like where the fuck did you put your laundry? Much like just everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. Oh, so 1937. So two women accidentally arrive at his Parisian studio at the same time. Walter demands Picasso choose between them. Picasso then just goes, go on girls have a go at it and then yeah he said they began to wrestle it's one of my choicest memories yeah he kept on painting he said yeah he was like well fucking yeah I'm gonna paint this yeah bit of peace and quiet finally so during World War I he basically just cops out stays in France because Spanish Civil War everyone's flooding in it's like war tourism and he's actually from Spain and he just fucking dips sorry World War I he misses out oh of course sorry World War II he lives in occupied Paris but he's probably most known for Guernica which is the depicting the bombing, alleged bombing of the Lufafa of a Spanish town.

39:48Now we've talked about this from the very early days of the pod. Yeah, that he made a mistake and he fucked it and then they were like, is that Guernica? He's like, yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I think he was trying to draw a horse and then he had several goes and he didn't change paper and then they went, what's that? It was like an abstract interpretation of the Guernica bombings. Yeah, sure, that. Yeah, what you said, yeah. Supposedly, a German officer saw a photograph of it and said, did you do this? And he said, no, you did. So he's on Reddit. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. He doesn't strike me as a super political figure, even if people might interpret him as such.

40:23Would you say, is he a less difficult pint? He's definitely a less difficult pint than Van Gogh. Oh, I'd love to go for a pint of Picasso. Tell him about the time that your two side pieces had a go with each other. Yeah, yeah. That'd be fun. Van Gogh is just too much. A bit more laugh. Yeah, he's a laugh. Yeah, he's a laugh. He would sometimes offer a signed napkin as payment after he'd had a meal at a restaurant. I mean, to be that iconic that you can just any meal. Imagine that, you just scribble a piece of paper and there's breakfast, lunch and dinner. You're just fucking... But Van Gogh can never do that.

40:54No, because no one liked it. He's going to be like, no, we need money. You smell. Who are you? Who the fuck are you? You're a weirdo. Why are you bleeding out the side of your head? So he realised that the signatures... So I guess he kind of made it in his lifetime. And it's the opposite of that. He really enjoyed it. He loved it. Absolutely loved it. Because there's probably nothing better than being super rich and just doing it through painting and then you're really good at painting. It feels like you get everything. But then, so Guernica's, I think the fact everyone knows him for this is part of the reason that everyone then starts chipping him and going, actually, he was really abusive because there's a photo called The Weeping Woman.

41:30Can you get that up? Where he basically, in order to get this, he made one of his girlfriends just repeatedly cry over and over again so and like um not not but like made her cry not like act crying like actually was horrible to her um demeaning her etc um and then got this and when you see this painting you're like that you could have just done that without a woman there it looks nothing like a woman do you know what i mean it's so abstract it's like you didn't need to do that yeah but when people talk about you know this is an iconic painting. Dora Ma, sorry, that's the other one who fights.

42:05She's in the red corner. Therese Waters in the blue corner. But the Weeper Woman is an iconic painting we remember for hundreds and hundreds of years. Is it so bad that a woman got, you know, was crying? Well, stop clock, isn't it? Yeah, but everyone was like, it's so problematic. A woman was crying. Yeah. It's like, all right. But look, we've got a painting now forever. That's true. That's true. A woman cried. We should cancel it. What did she do? Yeah. What'd she ever do? Oh, she was an artist. All right, fair enough. But then, quote, she was known to Picasso as being always weeping because of their turbulent relationship.

42:39Yeah, well, when I lost my phone and wallet on holiday, we were stuck with just one car between us and it was very tough getting home. And BB's approach to any sort of situation of stress is you scream cry immediately. Would you not say? I would say. So like, if it... Really? Yeah, immediately. Scream cry? Yeah, it's kind of like... Not scream cry. Pretty much scream cry. More to 100. Yeah, and I think, You say you're taught this by your mother, right? Which is like a defense mechanism. I think that I, well, it's partly the way that I deal with stress. Deal is an interesting word. Respond. The way that's fine.

43:11Respond. Okay, fine. Respond. It's probably the way that I respond to stress. But I also think there's a. Uber canceled. That's what you see. If an Uber canceled to the airport, this is, you're getting that immediately. I think it's. It was more than an Uber canceling. it was that i didn't realize that with ryanair if you don't check in online that they charge you for late booking and because i didn't have an actual in-person card because well i didn't bring my cards out with me i thought i was gonna be able to use that well i didn't fucking expect this what do you mean my wallet what do you mean um but yeah i think it's also a female thing it's uh you know there's there's there's strength in weakness my mom taught me when i was a little girl when you get in trouble you cry because it makes men confused and slightly angry and uh but i'm looking at this painting hearing that yeah when you're in trouble cry right so she's crying over on a cord yeah and he's just painting it isn't he yeah but i'm just saying like as a little girl you can do that as getting out of trouble but but as a woman too it's about It's a fawning reflex that is like actually something in all of animal nature.

44:29It's about making yourself small. It's about making yourself vulnerable. And it like tends to get me out of a lot of troublesome situations. Yes, because I have to fix it. So nasty. He's so nasty. No, but I think when you reach a certain age, do you think the scream crying will be less... Yeah. Will it be less effective, do you think? It probably will get less effective. Post menopause Come on love Come on love You're fucking The thing is maybe that's my way of responding to it It's like I'm upset with the fact that I know that it's like This is going to be a very temporary period of my life Where I can make use of it So why not make use of it That's a good point The world gives a lot of opportunities for women to cry Hey is that crazy to say No Go on Charlie When did you last see Heratio truly cry I have seen him cry twice in our whole relationship When they were both at films Yeah And I bet those films had subtitles Wanker I think one of them might actually crazy imagine crying at a film of subtitles no it was Waves yeah and it was Return of the Fireflies never heard of it no I didn't I didn't cry at that the anime yeah you did but then I think she turned the lights on crying at anime fucking hell it's the saddest film it's a really sad drawing it's a really sad load of drawings well just like that it's a really sad drawing crying at anime but then she turned the lights on because she was like so shocked that I was crying that she wanted to capture the moment.

45:49But it's just like completely, it made me never want to cry again because you were like, you wanted to remember it so much. You can judge me, but I also think that there's something powerful in like letting yourself release emotions and there's clearly something artistically interesting about it. So Picasso, No one's saying you're holding it in. Picasso, by the 70s, I'm also just thinking about when my dad met your mum. Oh my God, that was incredible. And then my dad, because he's basically a gay man, to put it short, because he's an active listener. Yes. For a man in his 60s, very, very rare.

46:18your mother had never met a man who actually listened to her and I saw her entire world view change in seconds and then she was so entranced by my dad's spell that she missed helping you for your show which would be done every day for a month my dad is a witch doctor he's a dangerous man he's a dangerous man to a certain age woman anyway so by the 70s Picasso is the most famous artist alive so he lives to see his own success and he dies in 73, age 91 working till the end and his final wife committed suicide in 1986 so you know like 13 years later so obviously he's got nothing to do with that what happened in those 13 years?

47:07must have been sad who was the other guy? his son died of alcoholism people think maybe it was linked to suicide or depression but also his grandson shut up can't fucking concentrate but didn't his grandson also commit suicide I feel like a lot of people it's like Love Island in the Picasso circle like they kill themselves or they end up so fucked up and I think it's very interesting when you think about like genius artists with toxicity it's almost like this super resource that sucks the soil dry from everyone around them. I certainly think if you're like an iconic artist, it colours everything around you.

47:52And if you then raise kids who are born with the money from your art, but don't have the talent, I think they feel this sense of imposter syndrome that leads to depression. Stanley Kubrick's grandson is now started on Instagram and it's quite funny. He's basically like, I'm completely talentless, but I've got loads of money. Here's me on holiday. It's basically him on like jet skis, him going to like villas, saying like, yeah, sadly, I can't do anything. I'm rich in rubbish. He's filming his feet the most of the time. Can't even hold it to his face. It's funny, hardly a chip off the old block, is it?

48:25I mean, Brooklyn Beckham, Beckham's less aware of it than Kubrick's grandson. Cruz Beckham, phenomenally talented. What a musician. Probably my gayest opinion is that I genuinely love the music of Cruz Beckham. Isn't he like 17? Yeah, he's 19. Yep. You really are a very surprising creature. No, I am. And what? I contain multitudes. That multitude is Cruz Beckham. I like the Nazis on Cruz Beckham. I like to bend Beckham over a barrel. I love that moment in... Bend it like Cruz Beckham over a barrel. In the posh Spice documentary on Netflix, there was this really nice moment where David and Victoria are talking about their kids and it's intercut with a montage of them all in the kitchen together.

49:04This is before the Brooklyn Beckham... They might cry, can we get some Kleenex in here? But they basically both talk to Cameron. Their kids are all chatting. they're all together in the kitchen and yes they all come across a bit bimboish but david says so earnestly to camera they could have turned out to be arseholes and i'm i'm really really proud of his mom is fucking grinding on all the kids as well yeah i mean this was before this conflict but i i think that it's very difficult if you're a successful artist how do you raise children that are not going to be influenced by the idea that you're some genius it's like you're borrowing i almost think it's like when you take drugs and you borrow happiness from the next few days and you have this terrible come down maybe if you're a genius you borrow all of the energy and life force from the children that you're going to have it's going to take generations for people to have enough backstory and coolness to be talented again you kind of are selfish if you become a great artist and you have a family because it doesn't give your children a fucking chance i think that's what a fucking untalented artist says um yeah i did it for my kids being crap art yeah Yeah.

50:07So now Picasso becomes a surrealist officially. He's a card carrying surrealist. Now surrealism, I have a problem with. Why? What do you think it's random? Well, it is. So you don't like surrealism. Do you not like surrealism, Charlie? I don't. I'd never met it. You're a very surreal person though. Yeah, you are a Dali painting. So the whole point of surrealism is it comes out of World War I where they think, well, the realism caused this nightmare. And it's all about Sigmund Freud's theories of the unconscious. And why don't we paint dreams? Why don't we paint those unconscious thoughts? Why don't we render that?

50:43And I guess things don't have to make sense. Semi-PTSD from the war. Totally. You start having to look into what's going on in the mind. Because people's faces now look like Picasso's paintings in real life. So, you know, they're thinking, right, well, this is a bit crazy. A bit random. A bit random. That's what you say to a 1-1-1 master. My nose is but my eyes. Why is your nose by your ear? There's a thing called Dadaism as well. Yeah, type in Dadaism. Which is about anti-art, isn't it? So am I Dadaist? Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, you'd hate Dadaism. It is the definition of random. Dada. Mona Lisa with a moustache.

51:18Hey, what? It's quite smug. Mona Lisa with a moustache. Oh, God, it's tea towel art. Yeah. My first official wank. Do you want to see it? What do you mean official? What? What do you mean? Does the queen cut it with a red ribbon before you start? With the Guinness Book of Records there? What do you mean a fish or wank? What do you mean, Jolly? That poster. So is that Dada? That's the fucking picture you drew of me. So is that Dada? It's that. Don't know. Getting the Mona Lisa's chebs out. No, I don't think so. Wait, wait, wait. Did you actually wank to that? I had that on my wall for a long time.

51:50Who put it there? You're wanking looking at your wall. Your mum put it there. You're wanking looking at your wall. Yeah, she was on there. But you're wanking at something that's on your wall. So are you genuinely... That's crazy. Are you... This is like walking through a museum, wanking at the pictures. It's crazy. Normally you're hunched over looking at a magazine. Generally, the first time you came was at the Mona Lisa. Successfully, yeah. Successfully. That's unbelievable. What had you been trying to do before? Just trying to come. I was just watching porn like TV. It was horrible. What? You got Homer Simpson in an armchair with a fucking beard.

52:19Just like... Boring, boring, boring. Changing channel. But that did it for you? So artists believe that if rationality had created the violence of war, irrationality could be used to create beauty. I understand it up to this point. But then you get to have dream surrealism where they paint really lifelike, but it's things that were never - Photorealist, but mental shit. Yeah, exactly. So this is kind of Pink Floyd album cover stuff, right? So objects are bigger than they should be. This is Dali, right? So we're getting into Salvador Dali, who was born in the, what, early 1900s, I think? He was a massive Picasso fanboy, right?

52:52Was he? So he's Spanish as well, I presume. And he becomes the face of surrealism. and his face now lives on in the shit moustaches of bad improv troops at the Edinburgh Festival. He does look like a Victorian villain, doesn't he? Yes, he does. It makes sense that he actually was a fascist. Was he a fascist? He was like a Francoist. It's a bit muddy waters, but he certainly didn't hate the original. In fact, some kind of like quirky surrealist art fans now certainly find it interesting that he's the sort of face of the surrealist art movement when it's actually something that's really associated with communism and a lot of anti-fascists.

53:27random fascism it's a bit weird so it's kind of funny isn't it but it's also the same way that with like certain quirky brands of like comedy or acting you know clowning and all these kind of things really associated with very liberal spaces often times will be people that are actually really you know posh privately educated I mean this is something you both agree with but you're basically saying all clowns are rapists I didn't say that you can't say that I've got that tattooed above my arse but that's what what you're getting at is the guy with the Dawn books tone bag and his painted nails who's, you know, reading a fucking Simone de Beauvoir book.

53:59Why I'm talking to white people, whatever. Yeah, why you fucking hate white people about race and stuff like that. They're the ones who are going to be master manipulators and pedophiles, is what you were saying. It's not at all what I'm saying. I read it. I read it. No, I get it. Yeah. But it is interesting that Salvador, you know, he had like a fascination with Hitler and stuff, didn't he? But it's the 30s. You're allowed to be fascinated by Hitler. It's true. You would have been curious at that time. Who is this guy? You'd be like, what the fuck is going on? He's just done the Anschluss. What is that?

54:26I like this. It's suspicious to not have a fascination with Hitler. Thank you. Because it does show a lack of curiosity about the extremes of humanity. If you're a straight man... It's not extreme at the time. It's centrist. You know, this is the story of the German Lib Dems in the 30s. Uncle at Christmas. It's click mania. Everyone's having a conversation at the table. He's already retreated to the living room. He can still hear. He's shouting from there. He was an extreme at the time. Hitler was a communist. It was like a centrist at the time. It was like the Nick Clegg of its day. It's Clegg mania.

54:58It's the first Clegg mania. What's only bounties left? But I think with Spain, though, fascist Spain, it's like fascism originates in Italy, which makes sense because Italy, you know, it's a fucking, it's a wetsuit. Do you know what I mean? It hasn't got any starch. It needs order, it needs rigidity. Right, okay, yeah. I can see why if you're a Spaniard and you like money as Dali did, you would then be like, well, can we fucking get something going? please can we get rid of the siestas yeah it was a response to siesta ism yes well can we find out did siestas go down under the fascist regime huge huge uh study this we must know fascinating maybe ask chat gbt in spanish aseo means toilet and it's quite it's quite um yeah that's not what we asked charlie can you can you ask or phoebe or just anyone back there this is generally interesting the siesta culture change under franco it changed significantly under franco it was a survival mechanism during his dictatorship so it actually came up well so they're trying to do it to to hide well i guess it's it's it's fascistic it's enforced napping because it's spanish because it also gives you more energy that you're able to work two jobs that's what it i think of course i saw yeah i saw like a fucking manosphere guy saying i've split my day into two days and therefore i have 14 days in a week i've seen this so you can Maybe that's what they're doing there.

56:22Except really in the first place, they only have half a day. So really they're just making one day. Franco moved Spain's clocks forward by an hour to align with Nazi Germany. I like that. This is both Picasso and Dali, but especially Dali became obsessed with money in quite like a Warhol-esque way where he viewed fame, success, and how much money you have is a sign of how great an artist you are, which weirdly also doesn't go with this real sort of thing. And in a way he's kind of almost like one of the early influencers. He's promoting himself with these publicity stunts. he turns up in a really big, heavy, old-fashioned diving suit.

56:54Yeah, have you heard about this? No. At some sort of an event, and he passed out. He also had three ferrets he was walking on leashes. Oh, yeah, two white hounds. And then it was meant to be some sort of conference about art, and then he did his speech from this helmet, but then it got stuck. Yeah, diving suit, but it got stuffy. And then he nearly suffocated to death, and so people had to wrench him out of it. Oh, fuck, if only he died, that would be so fucking satisfying. and now this comes just in the queue for berghain yeah exactly there's three ferrets and his diving helmet also so he was became obsessed with money however to make money he thought if you're a genius you should monetize it as much as possible right uh genius this is genius genius genius yeah that guy's a pedophile so he did a disney collab as well yeah so he became he They're both fascinating in each other.

57:44He thought Disney was like a great artist, animator. And it took 58 years to finish this short film called Destino, which I guess finished both after they'd both died. It won an Oscar and it's, I guess, Salvador Dali's drawings animated by Disney. It's kind of amazing. Do you like his paintings? Do you know what? It's because it's surreal and I know it's surreal and I know that it's not meant to make me feel anything. So you're not surprised by anything? I'm not surprised by anything See that's how ADHD people see time Yeah That's what time blindness Well that's just a normal painting in Africa isn't it

58:22I find the arid landscape quite unsettling Looks like Cornwall I don't think it looks like Cornwall though I don't think anything looks like Cornwall at all Actually do you know what Charlie I think it does look like Cornwall My friend Kev lives on a cliff in Cornwall Oh yeah Which is completely irrelevant He lives on a cliff Wow Wow. In a cliff on it. And kind of on it. We eat stuff off the rocks. Samphires. You eat stuff off the rocks. You do live in a fucking Darley painting. That is true. Samphire. It's funny, you know, because a lot of hot girls on TikTok who are painters have a very sort of surrealist style.

58:57And it is funny when you sort of compare. It's always like a sort of a Pinterest board. It's just like these items. I can imagine Darley just sort of being like, yeah, cute. Clock. Would you think modern art has moved to the point where, I think there is now like the artist baddie coming along as a Instagram thing, where there's like attractive girl who will post loads of images as if she's attractive. And then part of her attractiveness is that she also does sort of art and it always nearly always is derivative of. But then how is any, I mean, all art is, you know, derivative mostly. Um, I think it's, what's that derivative of?

59:29Right. Let's get his Hitler one up. Cause Hitler one is kind of goaded to be fair. Yeah. I don't think that you should blame people for being interested in art, no matter how derivative it is um because in order to create your own style you have to you have to copy but this is very much this podcast the fact the fascination undeniably i guess a lot of this podcast is giving into animal urges and not being performative about and lying about things obviously if you're a man you are interested in hitler don't deny it and i think this uh painting you can't say he was pro hitler but it's terrifying let me look at it Little rotted pieces of food and a little postcard image of postage stamp of Hitler.

1:00:13And there's a bat. Oyster. And there's an oyster. And also it's a similar setting to the persistence of time. It could also be in Cornwall. Zoom out. There's a sort of ghost-like umbrella. There's a telephone. A black knob. Oh, no. No, no, no. It's a telephone knob. One end's like a scorpion, it looks like. Or it's dripping. Or it's dripping. It's a lot like a knob. It does look like a... I am seeing a big knob dripping. It always looks like a mustache a little. some cashews now do you know what the more I look at it the more I actually don't think it's about Hitler at all I think it's just a photo of Hitler in the middle right I mean what the fuck is that about what the fuck is going on there can you just tell me can you keep that up and then get a separate window up with some kind of Gemini saying what the fuck am I meant to think about that so you did that in 39 the cut telephone cord represents the severing of diplomatic communication that's very Beethoven's brother isn't it bad landscape is the sterility and the anxiety of the impending catastrophe.

1:01:07He always does a barren landscape. I think he just doesn't know how to paint a different type of landscape necessarily. My problem with this stuff is that it's a bit like you're seeing this and you're reading about why it means stuff and it's a bit like watching an A-level drama production. Absolutely. Yeah. But also you could be told that a painting means anything. Social media is bad. And I think that you would be able to draw conclusions if you said any item was linked to anything or emotion. you would be able to find some kind of link there. But do you not think, with the colour of Dali's normal paintings, the fact that it's 1939, the graveness of the feeling on the continent, I feel it represents that emotion quite well.

1:01:43It does represent that, but then because he's chosen these things, he's there going, hmm, how should I represent the seven diplomatic relations? But it's Radio 4, isn't it? It's Rye. That's a Rye painting. Now, if you were going to, you had to draw, in 1939, you had to draw a painter called The Enigma of Hitler. yeah how would finn taylor do that i'll show you it's like a like um like one of those japanese uh like just love hearts everywhere and it's got massive eyes he's like like that i thought you were going to say it's one of those octopus fucking wood prints no it's like a nigma of hitler and it's him going oh no it's hello kitty but hitler's like that hello hello kitty hello kitty hello kitty is good um so obviously darley without darley there'd be you know, David Lynch, you know, talking heads is quite influenced by Dali, I'd say as well.

1:02:33Do you like Lynch? Yeah, I like Twin Peaks. Twin Peaks is amazing. Here in David, there's a compilation of David Lynch talking about every time he forgets an idea, he wants to kill himself. And he said this in so different interviews, there's like three minutes of him just, and it is a very relatable thing basically. So perhaps more than any other movement in art, surrealism sort of opens a gate, I guess. so i suppose you know if you're tracing this back from van gogh which is in the impressionists are in the 1860s yeah in the speed in the space of 80 years what's possible in art has entirely changed and i guess the war probably has fed it all up yeah because everything's just got technology has grown at such a rapid rate but now i guess where does it leave art now because it does feel what have you sorry right what have you done there charlie what have you done talk because people are listening switch the video and tell us what you've done there can you replace this as the enigma of Finn Taylor, British comedian, make it similarly dark and a bit homosexual.

1:03:32Right. That's the prompt. Right. So it's just, it's basically kind of, it's still quite Radio 4. Funny, isn't it? What is that? Is that what it says on the mountain? Yeah. There's cum coming out of the cock, which I've made a bit more pronounced. That's meant to be you. It's like Bob Dylan. It's not just a joke, darling. And then there's a... It's classic Finn. It's quite you. I don't think that's me. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Yeah. Really? Yeah. I guess where is art now? The female gaze will never understand. Because the thing about Dali, he died. He looks like he's got AIDS, that guy. I like him weak.

1:04:06Right, well, yeah, I guess that one tracks. He dies in 89. Yeah. Right, but at least Dali was a proper painter and he had incredible technical skills. And I think these painters still stand up. I guess now, post-Warhol, art has got to a point where it feels like technically it's all been stripped back, right? There's a sort of a bit of a death of fine art and oil painting. It's almost cringy to try and be good at art now, isn't it? Because now it's so conceptual. Who are the big... Because now, in many ways, the British art scene, certainly in Europe, is the bigger, the most emerging one, but they're sort of...

1:04:36What are they called? The young... I have no idea. There's like a name for them. The young... Young kings. I guess it's so interesting as well, because you think about what people would have... They would have had to spend so much time, actually, painting, learning each kind of fine brushstroke. People had so many less things to do. Of course they would become masters in a different way. I think that we're all too overstimulated now to spend our time becoming master painters. We're not going to see any more master painters. The new shit does leave me cold. Yeah, there's no craft to it anymore, I suppose.

1:05:09Yeah, and it's all about conceptual. What I don't like is so much of art is just recontextualising other things. And that's the art. Is it artistic that I put a toilet in the gallery? Isn't it artistic that I got an old telly and put this on the old telly? Well, have you read Retro-Mania by Simon Reynolds? No, I haven't. You should read that. okay it's about how basically past the 90s everything became a library of culture yeah and rather than there's nothing but then also it's like it's so cyclical that every 50 years or so we say that we hate modern art and then in 50 years from now people uh will say that they love well that's the i think that's the big question is that you look back at van gogh and picasso and people would have hated them at the time some of the stuff at the time and then you could view the fucking shit in the bed now and be like oh that's going to be like van gogh but is it because it does feel like everyone now is saying that we're living in a bit of a low point for art and it's partly the commercialization that these stuff is this stuff's going i don't think anyone's having to look back at like oh the baroque poo in a floor on the floor so the reuben-esque poo i mean but also we aren't the only thing we aren't the only beings that can create images anymore i think well no i just ai means that um we're not in control of images being produced anymore and in the same way and therefore um images are just changing in terms of what they're valued to us we can't trust that something beautiful we see has been made by humans so yeah it's going to change the whole way that we uh view it but oh look dogs campaign and you know what i mean it's not that much worse than van gogh sunflowers that's what i'd say anyway uh well charlie what have you learned um that you can still create great work even if you eat paint um yeah that's not the lesson i want people to take away from this series i don't endorse glue or glue or paint is fine basically right okay um bb you're at the edinburgh festival oh yes for the whole month what's your show called my show is called swoon it's about um the pre-raphaelite brotherhood who a group of Victorian painters and their muses and male artists and wanting to be a muse but failing to be one.

1:07:15The complicated male artists. The complicated male artists but also very similar themes to my last shows which is just essentially a girl wanting to express herself and failing. But also your shows are basically naked gun films and how many silly jokes are in them. They just got a bunch of accents. Yeah, you do some terrific accents and that's coming from me. Yeah, she's a real accent artist to be fair. Yeah, she really are. So when you're talking about how it's about the young Raph like blah blah blah. It's really funny and silly. That's nice. Thank you. If anybody wants to come, it's at 5.40pm at the Jackdome all of August.

1:07:465.40 the Jackdome, rabbit, dog. Let's see it. Get there. We're going to carry on chatting on the Patreon about the pre-Raphelite brotherhood, which I, I know what that is. This has been Finn vs. History. She's been Bebe Cave. We'll see you all again on the Patreon or next week for a brand new topic from all of us here. Goodbye. Goodbye.

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