Italy’s Greatest Weapon Is Surrender | Monty vs Rommel (Part 2/4)

0:00Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. This Labor Day at Lowe's, get up to 45 % off select major appliances. Plus, deals on select materials and tools to keep the job moving. Right now, get a free DeWalt 20 Volt Max battery 2-pack when you buy a select DeWalt 20 Volt Max tool. At Lowe's, we have what you need to keep your job moving. Battle through 9-13. All supplies last. Selection varies by location.

0:40See Lowe's.com for more details.

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1:15Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

1:57Welcome back to Finn vs. History. I'm with Horatio Gould. And this is part two of the Desert War. Monty vs. Rommel. The most crucial moment in World War II. The most crucial front. We have arrived at the Desert War. The turning point of the war. I mean, it is sort of the turning point of the war time-wise. It's just that's probably what happened at Stalingrad. But it is around the time of the war. Stalingrad is irrelevant. It's irrelevant. Stalingrad is completely irrelevant to where the war is lost. Yeah. at El Alamein grad. El Alamein grad. To recap, Monty and Rommel are two professional soldiers.

2:36They have fought in World War I where they have sort of outlined their new... What was that? Sorry, that's a hiccup. Right. Are you going to have hiccups the whole episode? I can't confirm. Right. As a producer, you cannot have hiccups while we're recording. I don't think I can help that. No, you can't help that. It's not a protected characteristic. Okay. It's not in Martin Luther King's speech. I have a hiccup. You cannot use hiccups as an excuse. A mortgage trying to scare him. Yeah. Imagine a mortgage. Imagine being married to a woman. I'd love that. Imagine being married to a woman who just sees your arsehole as a poo gutter and not a playground.

3:15Sorry. I don't know what... I don't know what you mean at all there. Come on. You know what I mean? I don't... Do you get that, Charlie? No. Your arsehole's a playground. Is she trying to upset me? Yeah, yes, I am. I'm trying to stop you hiccuping. Right. You're going to be so scared. Trying to depress the hiccups out of me. Yes, I am. No, because you know when you scare someone and they no longer have hiccups? He tried to do that by you imagining having a future wife who only viewed your ass as a poo gutter and not a playground. And Finn was expecting you to go... I used too many words. I didn't understand why.

3:47We're in the desert, okay? We're in the desert where assholes are poo gutters and not a playground because there's a lot of sand getting involved. Yes. right the bottoms are lovely so the bottoms i'm a professional broadcaster the bottoms are not clean it's clean it's difficult to clean your bottom in the desert front okay this is melvin bragg sort of stuff unlike the picnic of the eastern front where bottoms are being white easy right yeah there is sandy bottoms in the desert okay and these bottoms are italian so they're hairy as well all right yeah as i was saying to you before we started recording i frequently have to cut shit out of my dog's matted ass that is my actual dog before you make a joke about my wife yeah i wouldn't uh i'd write them for you to say yeah um but you were saying because you're um you're giving your dog away for a week to our producer yeah and you've said you're going to pre-cut the shit out their ass she currently has some dry shit uh matted into her fur at the back of her arse uh if i if i just gave the dog to our producer i would be giving um other charlie i would i would be giving her i would be giving her basically a shit wrapped in fluff yeah essentially so you're going to do it pre-cut yeah but as soon as you have to do that anyway i was wondering if you could put charlie in because you've already got the scissors out while i'm down there yeah i think we could just give charlie we could cut some shit out of your arse as well i don't want you to do that okay no you hold on to it like it's some kind of crystal I imagine.

5:17Anyway, we're in the desert. Okay. It's September 1940. Italy has invaded Libya. Italy has invaded from Libya into Egypt. They've crossed into British territory. And the Brits are like, excuse me, what the fuck? Now, Italians have nearly a quarter of a million men. But again, this is a big number. Huge number. That's a big force. It's not a big force. Because they're Italian. Yeah. And, you know, this is... Practically speaking, five men. Yes. It's the same as five British men. It's a quarter million Italians or a platoon of Brits, right? The Advance has no clear plan. It is. Their main weapon is being a genuine liability.

6:01This is like a public health problem. Well, the key element is surprise, except they've surprised themselves. Oh, right, we're invading, are we? so the advance has no plan and no long term objective that's not Mussolini riding a horse topless in Cairo because the Italian navy in the Mediterranean is basically like a bunga bunga cruise right because they got the prostitutes onto the boats yes so they were shagging it was a floating brothel yes it was their lead yeah it's like we're going to set sail for Cairo get the prostitutes on the prostitutes arrived they went what were we even doing in the first place I forgot this is great let's just hang out with these guys now the what the Italians do is they build a series of camps in the desert, disconnected camps that themselves, this is the difference between the German camps and Italian camps.

6:49There is no sort of infrastructure in between the camps. They're isolated. And they're thinking, right, we've got some times we're going to really hanker down. So they build really fortified, structured camps. Pasta kitchens. But they make them super far from each other so it's not at all aligned. And one of the big things about the North African theatre, okay, about the Desert War, is it is probably the most autistic front because nothing grows there. It's all supplies have to be shipped in. It is a war completely of logistics. And the Patreon sent me a link to an article, right, of the most autistic board game ever invented.

7:30Go on. It is called The Campaign for North Africa. We've got the Wikipedia article up here. in it was made in 1978 it is a strategic board war game that simulates simulates the entire north african campaign it is considered one of the most complex games ever published with 10 recommended players and an estimated total play time of 1500 hours wow it was not tested before release and no one the game they think has never been completed right so if you just go down who made it uh it's made by richard berg oh my god oh my god sorry known as the pope of war gaming winner of the industry award for best game design 13 times uh this man is that's right i should say that's the patron that messaged me richard h berg um uh now uh if you scroll up to the actual This is a board game too far for Berg, though.

8:27He's won all these awards, but this is too much. This is his styling, right? Right, so this is the game, right, the gameplay. The gameplay is hilarious. A reviewer said that if you and your group meet for three hours at a time, twice a month, you'd wrap up the campaign in 20 years. Right? But that's longer than the North African front. It has been called the most complex war game ever designed, with a commonly cited example that Italian troops require additional water supplies to prepare pasta. reviewer nicholas palmer outlined the actions for one one side single turn as a first step before playing the player or team must make unit organization charts for every one of the hundreds of counters on their side then each turn they have to plan strategic air missions raid malta plan access convoys raid convoys distribute stores and consume stores calculate spillage, evaporation of water, and adjust all supply dumps.

9:20Keep going, keep going. Reorganise units, calculate attrition of units short of water and stores, begin building construction, begin training, rearrange supplies, transport cargo between African ports, bring convoys ashore, deploy Commonwealth fleet, ship repair, plan tactical air mission if airplanes are fuelled, begin air mission, which would involve a side mission of flight air-to-air combat, fire flack, carry out mission, return to base, airplane maintenance, Place land units on reserve. Move units. End of reaction. Move more units. Then you get into the combat phase of the turn. This is not even started combat.

9:54Designate each tank and gun as deployed forward or back. Plot and fire barrages. Retreat before assault. Secretly assign all units to anti-armor or close-up assault roles. Adjust ammunition. Deploy destroyed tank markers and update unit records to reflect losses. Carry out probes and close assaults. Release reserves. Move rear trucks. Begin repair of breakdowns. Make patrols. repeat all movement a second time repeat all movement a third time this entire sequence would then be repeated by the other player which would complete one turn you know when you're on like a family holiday and you're playing a card game and someone's never played it before and you just, I'll explain to you the rules imagine trying to explain right, it's simple, so we play this every year so it's quite a simple game we play it every 20 years we play it once in a generation but you know what they say is oh you'll pick up as we go along the rules will become obvious Let's do a practice round.

10:45No, you've moved your tank too early. You've not calculated the water evaporation from the desert. There's even... Wow, that's incredible. Shout out. There's even a moment where they say that if you're playing as the British, more of your water gets evaporated because you're not using jerry cans, you're using barrels. Christ. I mean, it's the most... And this is what people do for fun. And in the reviews, they say, this is not a game. this is a historic simulation of running a war campaign in the desert. That's absolutely incredible. Anyway, so that's why this theatre is so autistic. It's such an autistic magnet.

11:27Because it's so technical. It's all logistics. It's all supplies. Ultimately, you could say that is why Monty prevails. Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins, Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. This Labor Day at Lowe's, get up to 45 % off select major appliances. Plus, deals on select materials and tools to keep the job moving. Right now, get a free DeWalt 20 Volt Max battery 2-pack when you buy a select DeWalt 20 Volt Max tool. at Lowe's.

12:08We have what you need to keep your job moving. Battle through 913. All supplies last. Selection varies by location. See Lowe's.com for more details.

12:19Chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

12:49Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle, or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

13:19So anyway, so the Italians invade, except they don't. They build loads of camps, and the camps aren't connected to each other at all. So even though they're quite fortified, they're not actually... No, they're not mobile at all. They're hunkered down. So basically it's like, let's split up all the forces and make them have no connection with each other. A quarter of a million men. The British garrison in Egypt has maybe 30 ,000, 40 ,000, something like that. 36 ,000 troops. So they wait in these camps, the Italians, until engineers were meant to build this victory road would go along. Oh, so that's still the main thing.

13:55That's the most important thing is building the road for Mussolini to go down. Before the Premier League starts, well, let's plan the parade route. Yeah. Right. Now, the North African theatre is quite unique in that it's basically there is one road going along the coast. Sorry, the Italians do it like the board game if I was playing it without knowing the rules. Yeah. And you hadn't planned on playing the game. Yeah, if you hadn't planned it. That's how Italians play it. There should be one person who doesn't know the rules. Yes. And they play the Italians. They think they're playing Boggle. Well, why don't you just say, hey.

14:31so they build these cabs and then the Brits essentially just pick them off so at the time of the invasion Commander Earl Archibald Wavel the golfing commander he was a man who would be asked about like a serious situation he'd be like I'm just going to play a round of golf please I just need to clear my head he needs like a post golf clarity exactly you can't do anything without post golf clarity he had one eye was caricatured as the old general and you know pompous aristocratic an empire man again what's so great about this series this really this is the empire's last hurrah in that it's men with big shorts who are trained in hot temperatures imperial we're using all the forces you know the Australians, the New Zealand, the Indians to play a part in this and we beat the Nazis without the Americans and then after this never really, which is, you know, obviously we're around on D-Day.

15:31Falklands is just, we're rerunning it. It's a, you know. Well, as we say, it's every 40 years, you know. Dunkirk and North Africa. Yeah. Then it's the Falklands. And then it's the Taipei Rescue. Yes. Okay. It does get, you know, less. The scale goes down as we go through. Anyway, so Archibald Wable, the golfing commander, the one-eyed golfer, him and General Richard O 'Connor lead Operation Compass in December 1940, which is a massive counterattack. So it's one road going all along the coast of Libya, which at this time is called Cyrenica, and Egypt. And then pretty much everything south of, I don't know, pick a town, I don't know, Safati, is just inhospitable desert.

16:15They have these sand seas, the Sea of Sand. Right. Where it's like an ocean, you just get lost in the desert. And when we're talking about the SAS, which we'll get into on the Patreon, they start using the desert which is part of the reason that they become successful because really it's quite a narrow battlefield it's very very very wide because that's where all the supplies are coming from because I don't need to reiterate the game before you attack you need to refuel you need to account for evaporation how much more excess water this is how Monty wins the war anyway Operation Compass the Brits pour out of Egypt and they just one by one pick off these big Italian essentially garden pasta kitchens.

16:56Yeah, yeah. The Allies push Italy back into Libyan territory. 130 ,000 Italian POWs are taken. That's their main weapon, is having to deal with that many prisoners of war. Yeah, hostages. Yeah. So that many people who weren't even killed because they gave up. No, no, no, no, no. There's so many people. If you surrender en masse, you become more of a problem than if you carried on fighting. Of course. Because now - They can't just kill you. If you look at the amount in the gameplay of the North African, the Western Desert campaign, you now have to, all those supplies... Keep them alive. You have to keep them alive.

17:31It's a fucking nightmare. Where did these prisoners of war get kept? Because I've always wondered that with massive... It must be keeping them for the whole war. There's also... It's a nightmare. There's like four British blokes per 50 Italians. Is there like free range and battery prisoners? Well, the Japanese were battery farming prisoners of war. They were. They were. They just said, don't care. If you're eating Japanese eggs in the 40s, it's not good stuff. The way they treated them. We were like human rights. They said, fuck off, basically. So Compass gets halted by the Allies. They decide not to push them further into Libya and out of North Africa.

18:06Which is a debated decision. Yes. This is where it gets very interesting because basically what's happening is that the Italians have also gone into Greece at the end of 1940. But somehow in this kind of like nap derby. Yeah, nap mogging. They finally found a place they got nap mogged. And yet the Italians are that incompetent that they get flummoxed by the Greek resistance. Greek resistance. And that's not just throwing a plastic chair at the Italians. They can't handle that. So this, now arguably you could make the case that Italy, how bad they are, fucks the world war for the nazis yeah because hitler at this time is planning operation barbarossa that's his big thing his big thing he wants to invade his dream may 41 before uh the winter comes in russia get it done before the winter however because the italians can't even beat the greeks and have been pushed all the way back out of egypt he doesn't care about north africa that's just not no he doesn't care about Mussolini wants to ride topless on a horse that's his dream yeah he's like a make-a-wish kid essentially yeah um and so Hitler decides that he Mussolini asks Hitler for help and Hitler agrees in January 41 which then means that because he's scared of basically Italy collapsing yes there's another front that he's going to defend and also the morale boost that would give to Britain having a win under their belt.

19:42So he sends German troops into Greece. They obviously make quite light work of that. I mean, they have done. They're still making light work of the Germans. The Germans are still fucking Greece to this day. Hitler ordered the Nazis into Greece in 41 and they never left. The fucking boot in Yannick Varoufakis out the window. Get the fuck off. Stand up, get up that chair. My parents have been in, my sister has been in Greece the last two weeks and every day I got a photo of a plastic chair on its own. Really? Somewhere, yeah. Every day, just a feel with a plastic chair in it. Maybe the economy's collapsing.

20:16I think it's right. If they're not sitting in the chair, they were empty. I think the economy's booming. What, biohacking Greece? Yeah. Stand up. The Greek Stephen Bartlett. Brian Johnson of Greece. I stood up. It's crazy what you can do when you stand up. It's absolutely amazing. So Rommel is summoned to Berlin to meet with Hitler in February 1941. and they come up with Operation Sonnenblum, Operation Sunflower. What a lovely name for an operation, Sunflower. This will be Germany's intervention in North Africa. They form a new unit, the Deutsches Afrika Korps, with Rommel at its head. So Rommel enters Tripoli in February 1941, March 1941, something like that.

21:03And immediately what he does is because he knows there's loads of spies, he organises a parade, but they basically do a loop and they just make it look like there's fucking loads of... Right, right. So the British spies go back and forth. Just to freak them out. The other problem is that Britain had sent most of the Western Desert Force to Greece in an effort to try and save the Greeks. And also there'd been this big old ding-dong in Crete where the Germans... I think that's one of the first paratroop assaults in the war. And yet they take Crete from the Allies but at quite a cost there's quite a lot we should do an episode about Greek that's quite interesting anyway Rommel is in North Africa Operation Sunflower commences on the 24th of March 1941 even though he'd been told not to do anything but this is his great skill he just goes nah fuck it they're weak so the Allies were expecting a much more cautious German approach I don't know why at this point in the war I mean they should have picked up that genuinely for the last 10 years, Germany has been steamrolling in three places.

22:13The Germans have the Schwerer Panzerspehwagen, which is an eight-wheel heavy armoured car, and it's much faster than British cars. Rommel's known as the Desert Fox because he would strike... That's propaganda, right? Yeah. That's Goebbels stuff, right? Yeah, Goebbels stuff. This is where Rommel will make his name. Because also, this is the beginning in this war, unlike World War I, publicity is a huge part. so all these commanders even the fact that we're talking about them with such personalities it's partly manufactured you all need to have an iconic look you know because it's a huge part of the propaganda it's pep wearing a t-shirt 100 % yeah it's just give yourself 100 % give yourself idiosyncrasies Monty decided to wear a beret yes Monty made his own uniform huh yeah you've got to pick something that makes you stand out what would you pick Charlie if you're going to be a commander and you wanted to have like an iconic piece of clothing I think a bonnet a bonnet like a sick dog I mean there's something kind of terrifying if you are a successful commander if you're successful if you're not you're just a cunt in a bonnet in the desert I guess there's nothing you can't can wear that makes you look ridiculous if you're a very successful commander because everything's terrifying we're wearing shorts and a beret because I guess if you are as successful as like Rommel was in the early time of the war and you have like a dummy in your mouth that is terrifying because suddenly it'd be like the baby fox the desert baby fuck he's in a he's in a nazi nappy with a swastika on it

23:45um yeah you're right actually i mean when we get to monty we'll get the next episode he designs this uniform himself i might do like denim cutoffs yeah and then like a mesh vest frayed at the edges yeah exactly like a pink whistle yeah yeah uh rommel uh starts he finds these um tank goggles and he wears them on the bridge of his cap and that becomes his look. It's funny, you all have to have, pick out your, customize your fighter basically. But this is very, very un-Nazi. Yes. Isn't it? It's to kind of, he's got individuality, which is not really the Nazi way. Yeah. He's not listening to orders.

24:20This is, he's Pep, he's Cruyff. Yeah. He starts just seeing gaps in the lines and just going through them and forcing the Brits to retreat. He doesn't engage the Brits, like you know he doesn't follow the laws of cricket and go um you know town by town he just goes fuck it we'll go around you we'll encircle you uh churchill describes rommel in the house of commons as a daring and skillful opponent may i say across the havoc of war a great general he's probably the only general that um the allies have much respect yeah and this is why this theater of the war is you know it's cricket i think there's also why there's a revisionism about his Nazism.

24:58Totally. Where they're constantly trying to say, yeah, you know, he was actually... But again, he was... He actually had no idea. He was a German military commander. He wasn't a Nazi commander. Sure. Your honour. No, he couldn't be less Nazi. No. No, listen, if you're using the perspective of everyone who's ever lived... The general Nazi icon couldn't be less of a Nazi. Of all the Nazis, he's the tallest dwarf. Sure. Okay? It's the least Nazi Nazi. All right? Now, Operation Sunflower continues into April of 41. It does sound quite special needs, Operation Sunflower. Sunflower Lanyard. It's like that coffee shop you go to.

25:33Yes. That's Operation Sunflower. Every time I go there, it is Operation Sunflower. Will I get a coffee? Who knows? I might get a banana. Whatever. Operation Sunflower continues. Rapid outflanking of the Allies. This is, again, the Ghost Division. It would appear unexpectedly behind enemy lines before anyone can react. and it's powered by Pervitin, Nazi speed. So as with the Blitzkrieg in the Western Front, they're up for three days, three nights in the desert, just pounding it through. On the 3rd of April, Allied personnel are pushed back across the Egyptian border. So this is where the ding-dong begins, right?

26:15End-to-end stuff. It is end-to-end stuff. And Rommel is in a tank at the front line. sure he prefers basically taking initiative over any kind of planning yeah which as we see in the board game is not how you win sure it's not a game of initiative it does not reward improv it's crushing planning yeah imagine playing a 20-year board game what happens if just like a counter gets knocked off and the thing about the life events that happen over 20 years get divorced you definitely get divorced of course you get divorced twice i was having to play it during in the divorce like the different levels of proceedings yeah it's pretty amazing yeah anyway so uh rommel's also an absolute dog uh of course because his um to recap he married uh he got engaged with someone went somewhere else knocked someone up had a kid went back and married his original one and the baby mama killed herself but then she was called wall burger Woolburger Stemmer so all well that it ends well now Zonnen Bloomer Operation Sunflower the special needs operation it fails to capture Tobruk a siege begins on the 10th of April 1941 Tobruk is basically staffed with Australians yeah but the Aussies are some of the most fierce fighters of the war apparently in the Pacific they're fucking nuts yeah because there's not that many of them but they seem to always they hold out for something like 200 days don't they how long has the seizure to brook can you find out what is it charlie what were you going to ask well is this kind of are they more likely to be good because we're closer to them all being kind of prisoners is it the closer you get imagine there's a wildness to the aussies especially at the start which oh i thought oh you i i thought i thought you meant the fact that they're besieged that they kind of like we're in jail oh i get it that's stupid if that's what you're saying no i'm saying because it's quite a new country yes could genetically yes no i think i i would I would support that theory.

28:09Yeah, they're tough. Your honour, I'd support that theory. They're tough fuckers. Because this, so what? Australia is sort of colonised early 19th century, right? So 1800s. So what you're saying, five generations? Yeah, thieves. Also, they're white people who are in the heat. They've been acclimatised to the desert. Whites in the desert. Yeah. You know? Angry. Dangerous. Angry. Red. Burnt. Right? There's nothing more racist than a burnt white guy. Sunburnt whites. That's us as our most racist. Stay away from the sunburnt whites. Everyone's like, oh God, it's white power. It's red power. That's what you call me.

28:44It is red power, yeah. SPF 50, when was it invented? I'm sure, I'm sure it will track with instances of hate crime. I'm guaranteed. November 2012. Wow. No. Do you know what I mean? No, no, no. No, hang on, hang on. First developed in the 60s. 60s, right. But no, that's SPF. When was sun cream invented? 32. By an Australian. So this is, to place this. Yes, we should place this. This is after the invention of sun cream, before the invention of SPF 50. So racism's being moved, but it's still, it's in a midpoint. It's an awkward midpoint. It's the beginning of the end for racism. It's the 30s. And the death throws.

29:24And then wait, but you're saying racism ended in the 60s then? Obviously it ended in the 60s. Obviously. I mean, obviously. It's common knowledge. Have you seen another recent clip of that on us? No, another one. Oh, it's an unbelievable clip. But this time he's being interviewed by someone who's - fuck we have the mandela one the mandela we gotta get up yeah let's get up errol musk talking about nelson mandela we're just checking back this is so good i mean before you play this what's fascinating about this version of errol is the interviewer here is quite different to the interviewer before yes the interviewer before is kind of like oh that's kind of interesting this guy's actually calling him out and it's quite interesting to see a man of such ignorance yeah being called out by facts it's quite interesting to see how he starts to move this I'd say we're reaching the peak impenetrability of Errol Musk's self-delusions.