Manic Pixie Dream Goebbels | Sigmund Freud & The Birth of Psychology (Part 2)

30:54I would recommend reading the essays. They're amazing. Hans Asperger's, which is a bit like being called Harry Autism. Oh, yeah. Derek Retard. Daniel AIDS. Yeah, yeah. But again, the condition is named after him. So if he was called that now, then that's quite funny. But again, this is pre-Asperger's. Trevor Downs. Called Trevor Downs. Does he have any children who are alive today uh someone find that out please does hans asperger's have any children that are alive today so uh he starts a study for um he's born in vienna again vienna is just fucking ground zero for autism isn't it yeah austria um yeah he's born in 1906 and he specializes in developmental disorders in children and in the 30s to 40s he carries out these clinical work with children who show an unusual pattern of social behavioural traits.

31:48These include being socially isolated, poor at non-verbal communication, subscribing to a racist podcast Patreon. What's being poor at non-verbal communication? It's not understanding cues. It's Greg Wallace. Right, yeah. Would you like a tea, Greg? Why is your cock out? And maybe not understanding a mime as an art form. It's quite funny to imagine an autistic person looking at a mime. but then i that's why i think i'm i can be autistic when i watch a mime i'm like the fuck is this fuck off get a job does that mean i'm autistic or i just hate can i just hate mime could be don't know but i get what they're trying to do it's not i don't get it i just think it's shit you can't read this you don't have the emotional intelligence to read no i understand it's a rope it's not like when i when i push the button and go down the elevator i'm like What, where'd they gone?

32:39Where'd they gone? Fuck. I'm not that. I'm not a two-year-old who got the first time walking down the stairs behind the kitchen counter. Fuck. What? There are stairs there? Sorry, he's got autism. Do you reckon Fritzl ever did that? What, just? Just pretended to go down the stairs. He had actually got a basement down there. Oh, right. There we go. Anyway, maybe Fritzl's the spirit of Woden. Yes. When was Fritzl born? Quick. I've cracked another theory wide open wow when is Fritzl born the spirit of Woden lives Nietzsche 35 you'd arguably have to say that's when Hitler starts to lose the spirit of Woden but also because what they what the theory what Jung's theory is is that Jung's theory is that Hitler is in the womb and as Nietzsche goes crazy Hitler's synapses form so if there was a moment when Hitler blows his brains out and then is there a moment when Fritzel's 10 where he's like, yeah.

33:44It finds a new avatar, finds a new host. Exactly. Fritzel could have been a very well-behaved 10-year-old. Exactly. And then Hitler blew his brains out. And suddenly he's possessed by the spirit of Woden. He does look like he's possessed by the spirit of Woden. He looks crazy. He looks crazy. He looks like a guy who did what he did. Yeah. He kind of looks like you, it's not impossible that you will end up looking a bit like that. He looks more like a ratio than me. I think he looks like a blend. I think you face up us together. Yeah, and then put the old filter on and you get a fritzel, which would make sense.

34:16Anyway, right. So Hans Asperger. No, that's us too. Sorry, that photo. I'm the one behind. This is when I've turned you in. Right, you've turned me in. And I've got a sort of smug, right look going, I knew this would happen. He's literally wearing your suit pretty much. He is wearing my suit. I don't look like him, wearing the same suit. Same suit, exact tie, exact shirt. We're looking at a photo of Fritzl wearing what I'm wearing now. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that is a smug? Do you think he is smug there? Yeah, I did it. Yeah, I did it. And I do it again. And I added value to that house because I built a fucking basement.

34:53Yeah. So when he dies, we need to worry about where the spirit of Woden goes next. Well, all I'll say, Woden, is that I'm right here. And I'm ready to lead the German people in their unconscious. What archetype was Fritzl then? The trickster? the lover the diy god the handyman he's the handyman he's a he's a mix of the handyman that's possessed by yeah the shaman of hitler the innocent yeah right so asperger's harry asperger's john down syndrome whatever you want to call him he is studying kids um uh and four particular children whose behavior follows this recognizable pattern difficulty forming natural social relationship with peers trigger warnings for our listeners.

35:36This will seem very relevant. Limited understanding of social cues. Conversational style that could be one-sided. Oh, no. Don't run into the road. What? Little intuitive use of gestures or facial expressions. Intense, narrow interests often pursued obsessively and an ability to talk at length about favourite topics. I mean, this is how this podcast, this is the backbone of this podcast. We just monetise our asperges. We've locked as people who are so hyperfixated on certain interests. Starting or growing your own business can be intimidating and lonely at times. Your to-do list may feel endless with new tasks and lists can easily begin to overrun your life.

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38:43So Asperger believes that many of these children could grow into functional adults through nurture. so uh you're getting you're getting a nurturing sense here which i before i think it's all about you sort of there's almost a sort of with freud and jung there's like there's no mobility in the archetype but then i think we've gone back to a sort of uh defeatist like destined view of autism which i don't agree with a lot of the time yeah where it's like i've got this is how i am adhd i'm always going to be 15 minutes late that's because that's because it's now become a personality trait. Yeah. Rather than a, I think obviously there's developmental differences as children.

39:23It doesn't mean you can't overcome them. No. And when people like, Oh, I'm masking. Yeah. So is everyone. Yeah. That's the whole, the whole gig of being, being alive in society is you don't just poo your pants. Charlie. Yeah. The masking thing does a kind of annoying. It's like, yeah, we're all masking. Why are you exempt from masks? I don't want to be here. I'm exhausted from masking all day. Yeah. I'm going to work. I don't want to work. I I've got to get out. I just want to be eating KFC on the toilet. What do you mean? We're all masking. I completely agree. You know, anyway. What is it? If you could have your time again, would you...

39:58Would you... 35? 35?

40:05If you could have your time again, would you... Would you go back to... Like, if you could have your brain in like a five-year-old body, I think I'd be doing so well now. question though Charlie I would be doing so well now like if I if I was five and I had my brain I'd make sure that everyone liked me immediately because I'd have all my skills yeah and um like you would go I still think you'd be losing it this is the problem is that you you'd go back to when you're five say this is brilliant I'm gonna be top of my class I'm gonna be able to like like you know be a CEO by the age of 20 and you'd be bottom of your class still you'd lose in three moves people you'd be a lot of people having meetings saying is he developmentally challenged yeah right so harry aspergers harry or whatever he's called uh he calls the kids little professors brian diarrhea brian you know some people have names and you're like well you can only do one thing where did diarrhea come from what's that is that named the first guy on a loose ship because you can't just like i mean i guess diarrhea makes sense as a like sonically what what's the what's the indian word for diarrhea because that's surely where it comes from.

41:14You know how Eskimos have 100 words for snow? In Hindi, there's 100 words for snow. Oh, it's a Greek thing. Of course, yeah. Of course it's Greek. You can't call Asperger's Syndrome that anymore. It's now... Because of the Nazi stuff? Yeah, because, and I looked into it, he's pretty guilty. Right. So the Nazis had a thing called... they had a camp called T4 or T44. No, T44 is the Paralympic thing. Anyway, they had a camp called T4. Catch up on E4. T4 on the beach. Not T4 on the beach. I think it's the opposite of that. It's where they killed disabled children. So it's not T4 on the beach. It's T4 off the beach.

42:01T4, it's landlocked T4. If you're in any mind, don't get those confused. It's not a music festival on the beach. it's a concentration camp where they send it's very important you make the right decision children very there's a fork in the road in your life all right one go to t4 on the beach they could be more different yeah one is makita oliver slamming pina coladas while the killers are playing and the other one is harvey price being gassed yeah the killers will mean something very different very important you choose the right fork so the all the debate is whether asperger's was aware how aware he was that he was sending children to their death right at a nazi euthanasia clinic because obviously the Nazi regime, they're taking Darwin's ideas, they're taking Jung's ideas about archetypes.

42:47Dr. Asperger, he ingratiate himself by referring children to this. To a euthanasia clinic. I mean, what a referral. Yeah. I mean, if you're a doctor, just to refer, you know when you get a referral. Yeah, I'm picking up a prescription. It's for a bullet in the head. Right, yeah. I'm going to refer you to my friends at this practice. Yeah. Asperger's is not a member of the Nazi party and he also does to be fair i think he also saved some children yeah but what let's do a numbers game yeah exactly the point is exactly he's still he's not a great pediatrician right pedo podiatrist right he's not no no but he's you know it's um but he has it's the number one thing you're trying to do is save kids right and he's sort of doing the opposite he's going these kids with autism could leave a full life where should i send them the nazi death camp the bin the drug tractor bin empty trash i've nurtured these kids into the bin he saved the smart ones okay so if you were particularly um you know i i guess that's the autism dilemma though well it is i maybe were the ones that were really into trains they were like i reckon we could put you to use currently we've got quite a sophisticated network so we then get to the nuremberg trials where psychology is this nascent sort of 30 year old thing but it's very important because everyone World War II is where psychology completely changes.

44:06Yeah. Because the naughty science is over. You've now got to stop bad at yourself. Sadly, this is the bookend of the funnest period in science. Yeah, it's the hangover. Unfortunately, they now have to unpick all the mad shit they did. And, you know, there's a lot of respectable, esteemed racists taking their coats off going, well, I guess I'm not a scientist anymore. If this is what science is, I want no part of it. i want to measure heads right i don't want to put mentos in coke bottles i think that's gay i want to measure irish people's noses and then make stereotypical judgments about their intelligence then i guess i'm not a scientist fine all right you you change not me it's like it's like we trigonometry say the left i didn't say i'm not come right wing the left changed science changed alright I'm still racist but science isn't anyway so the the Nuremberg trial this is obviously in the film Nuremberg I haven't watched it yet but I've seen clips of it so they get an American psychiatrist to assess the prisoners or Russell Crowe Russell Crowe and they're trying to work out what's just happened why have how have Germany done this Carl Jung says they've been possessed by a Norse god and that Hitler's a shaman.

45:28That seems slightly outlandish. And they're trying to understand the Nazi mind. And what they do, they do IQ tests. Most defendants score above average. They're sort of highly intelligent. This is where the banality of evil comes in as well. Well, this is what I mean. Well, yeah, the banality of evil is that these guys are smart, but they tell fucking boring stories. Yeah, so banal. Like you did so much mad shit and you can't spin a yarn. come on yeah like obviously i don't care about that part yeah get to the good bit and then no then there's more paper work and so um but then they start using uh the raw shash raw shash raw shash raw shash raw shash how do i say that raw shash raw shash raw shash um it's like the raw shak sounds like sean connery the raw shak a box of raw shash or quality history rorschach it's rorschach rorschach the test right the raw the raw the raw rorschach pasta rorschach it's the test if you if you know if you get the best ones that's quite rude if you get if you get eat the strawberry one given the rorschach if you eat the pink one you're gay winners go home and fuck the prom queen anyway uh so herman rorschach rorschach is Swiss.

46:49Died young. Again, he's Swiss. He died young. He was nicknamed Clex, which is German for inkblot. That's mad. So he enjoys this game where you drip ink on a paper then fold it. And his central question during his time as a doctor is how does the mind impose structure on ambiguity? Right. So he dies at age 37 at appendicitis, but he leaves this legacy of this test, which in the mid-20th century was being used to diagnose homosexuality, criminality, psychopathy and political extremism. Who's fucking around with inks but at a time where this stuff's really burgeoning? Yeah, well the 50s, and this is where I would again like to recommend the novel.

47:29Sort of right place, right time. You just flick it in. Yeah. The novel The Dice Man, which is the funniest book of all time. Right. It's a satire of the nascent psychological scene in 60s America. Charlie's already laughing. i'll get i keep meaning to give you a copy because you will love it it's a guy who essentially uh he's a psychologist then he rejects all his training and he goes you know what i'm going to live by the dice i'm just going to write down six different options roll dice whatever option it is i'm going to do that is it real uh no but it spawned a cult of people who tried doing it oh great i'd love to read that it's a brilliant very very funny book anyway rorschach um uh he has 10 official ink block cards and uh we're looking at them now on screen they're just kind of, you know, well, whatever.

48:15It's just 10 pictures of dicks. I don't know what a big deal is. It is sexual though, because look, four along, that's a guy with a tall guy with a massive dick. Lady at the beach? No, I think that's... See, number four. Number three. You see like a massive guy with a cute heart. That's a guy, that's someone shoving something off his arse, I think. And then you've got a bikini. Yeah. Yeah. On the next one. So there's two women kissing on that one, I think. Where? That one. So they're facing each other and their tits are towards each other. I was quite surprised how sexual I read it. They're kind of just all fannies, aren't they?

48:41That's a fanny. Fanny, fanny, fanny, fanny, fanny. Not two guys, one cup. That's not the raw. Even though they do sort of look like two guys, one cup. They're showing Herman Goering. What do you think of this? Just two guys, one cup. He's like, fucking hell. I was like, yeah, it's bad, isn't it? Well, what about, look what you did. You were way worse than this. You were appalling what you did. Is that the worst thing you've ever seen? Have you ever seen anything worse than that? I've actually never watched it. I couldn't bring myself to. I think the guy, the Chechen getting his head cut off, I think about more than two girls, one cup.

49:11The raspberry kiss, the raspberry sock. Yeah, that's bad. That's the worst thing I ever think. So I should stress to our thick listeners that they do not show two girls, one cup to Herman Goering at Nuremberg to get a sense of... It's 10 ink blocks one Nazi, is actually... 10 ink blocks one cup. So, but the aim is to try and see what the subconscious mind does with an ambiguous image to try and get a sense of who the person is. but the terrifying conclusion from nuremberg the psychiatrists make is that they're all fucking normals they have they have intense narcissism but their lack of conscience is not something that might be any different from anyone else yeah right they then really think that the raw slash thing was kind of irrelevant and i don't think that's a thing anymore in psychology i think it's all bollocks but um it's also prevalent in tv and films because it's quite a fun but they needed a translator to translate from german to english so all the weight you know that's just a translator going oh yeah no he sees a dick again he sees a big he's a big throbbing cock yeah um so the main takeaway from nuremberg is that psychology could not so there was not like a genocide part of the brain that they all had genocide button there's not phrenology started to crumble with the genocide yeah um because it reinforces the idea that mass atrocity can be carried out by psychologically ordinary people yeah there's also because i did a lot of this at uni there's a brilliant book called ordinary men genocide yes i did study genocide at uni there's a brilliant book called ordinary men by christopher browning which kind of builds on this and it's all about the nazis on the eastern front who weren't uh in concentration camps they were doing the free jazz lines out script and shooty shooty the miles davis holocaust um they were they but they were actually killing people they couldn't defend themselves they couldn't psychologically diss themselves by pushing a button in a room and then someone dying they were killing them yeah but they would they had the same psychological processes the same ordinary people did awful more playing it like call of duty basically yeah with that level of detection so now we get into the milgram experiment which uh now this happens just as our old friend friend of the pods yeah adolf eichmann yeah uh is on trial uh so that was our first four-parter i think he was our first four-parter um adolf eichmann feel free to if you've not heard that series dig into that first so the Adolf Eichmann trial you can catch up on that series but he was a German man who loved trains really no further information needed and if that's illegal then yeah I guess he's guilty but so August 1961 is he called what's he called is he called Stanley Milgram yeah he's called Stanley Milgram and he's an American I want to say should we place this should we place 61 because we haven't placed anything well okay so 61 I guess that's after Elvis Presley's first album yeah yeah and before the beatles first album it's not not before the beatles where's the first 60 59 58 really anyway between beatles and presley that's what's going on milgram has devised a study to try and explain the psychology of genocide so he wants to answer the question which is what the jury in israel are trying to do is the jury the jury of israel and the jury of israel the jury the jury of jury in israel christ that's a bit of gone to the jury and found a jury this country's gone to the jury uh they've gone to the jury and they've asked to them to find a jury of jury to do their duty in finding out whether eichmann could uh duty their duty is Jury.

52:48The duty. The jury's duty. Are you on jury duty? Now, what's that? You could say that Eichmann was on jury duty. Yeah. And now they're on jury duty. Yeah. That's going to be a lot of fun for the subtitler who's dyslexic. When that bit's clipped. Christ. The first bit he's understood. Poor guy. I don't envy that clip, Niall. Best of luck. best of luck with that anyway that's his worst nightmare so he wants to answer the question of whether Eichmann could legitimately claim that he is just following orders so Milgram suspects that the obedience exhibited by Nazis reflects a distinct essentialist German character which is what Jung would say it's what I said it was inevitable they were always going to do this is the spirit of Woden.

53:46It's Woden nonsense. They were social Woden warriors. Hitler was a manic pixie dream girl and the country was of SJWs. Anyway, so he gets an American participant. That was a good sigh. Did you hear that?

54:05Gary Neville commentary. He gets American participants as a control group before using Germans, right? So he wants to just see if this experiment's going to work before he does it on actual Nazis, which he thinks are just Germans. You can't call everyone Nazis though, Finn. Sorry? You can't call everyone Nazis. No, but this is the... Oh, no. Sorry, this is actual Nazis. So the experiment is as follows. There's three roles, an experimenter, a teacher and a learner. Now the teacher is told that the study is about how punishment affects memory, but that's a lie. They're told that they'll be paid regardless of what they do and that the learner is strapped into an electric chair.

54:41Darren Brown did an episode with this. And the teacher is given a sample shock to make it feel real. And then he's told, they're in separate rooms, and the teacher is told to basically put, every time that the learner gets an answer wrong, the teacher is told to push a button, which delivers an electric shock. And the electric shock will increase in voltage. What they don't realize is that it's not actually hooked up. It's just the voices of an actor going, Ah, ah, ah, oh, fuck, ah. and as you increase the voltage, he comes harder and harder. So the buttons had labels like slight shock and like danger, severe shock.

55:18And the screams are getting more and more. Yeah. Like, please stop screaming. Stop. And then eventually they go silent. And then it implies that you basically killed them by shocking yourself. Yeah, it implies that you're killing someone and it's about, will you obey an authority figure like regardless of morality? Basically like how much, if you wear a white lab coat people will listen to you basically yeah because it legitimizes you it's the and when they did it in less legitimate settings it went down by like 20 percent so it's the authority or legitimacy of the room and the setting that made it more like that so if the teacher wanted to stop which is not the the outfits if the teacher wanted to stop the experimenter used a set of escalating verbal commands to pressure them like things like you you have no other choice, you must go on.

56:05And the experiment would only end when the teacher refused all of these commands or the maximum shock had been delivered multiple times. Right. I love it that they do this test and you just friend again immediately. Yeah, just bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. So the results show that - I'd be quite interested to do this test with different regional accents in the UK to see how a lot - Oh, type of scream. like no it's more the the the doctor who's telling you to keep going on the northern irish you'll do everything you'll do everything values that button no yeah you're doing that but welsh i feel maybe you'd be like push the button no fuck i don't think it was legitimized enough yeah give it some well then yeah cockney you're not trusting them you think they're wheeler dealers yeah yeah sling it up him african i'm doing it hey push that button now uh what about if it was a kid huh a kid ordering it we're probably not right i'm probably like fuck off every participant went up to 300 volts 65 went up to the full 450 volts can you just give us some context charlie as to what what is 450 volts like how big no i mean google it google it obviously google it

57:32industrial equipment like large capacitor banks and i wouldn't know about voltage so i don't know if that would mean much to me what was your um your light bulb how many volts was that what do you mean what light bulb

57:48one light bulb in my house Charlie has one light bulb in my three bed house what light bulb do you what's your one light bulb do you unscrew it and then move it from room to room as you move through the house fucking idiot the one that you got the one that you got shocked with oh it was an LED driver when I was replacing the bathroom yeah yeah I don't know what that was anyways what is virus visual arts in terms of pain just sort of damn

58:20It was hurt a lot apparently. Yeah, it's like involuntary muscle cardiac arrest, like instant skin breakdown. Freezing effect. So your skin breakdown, you freeze. It's instant death, right? Yeah, so the results meant that when they were closer together, the propensity dropped from the phylogic to push the button. And even those who refused to continue didn't demand the experiment to stop completely or check on the learner. Right, interesting. The highest recorded voltage a person has ever survived is 230 ,000 volts. Oh, it's fine then. 17-year-old Brian Latassa injured 1967 after touching a high-voltage tower.

58:56Well, let's have a look at him, though. Yeah. Probably looks like Nietzsche. Because psychology then is like, okay, how do we blame someone for what happened? How much can we? And how much is it latent in humans to do this sort of thing? Which is interesting with like, as you were talking about, like the labels and how the fact the label almost gives you a gal jail free we're living in that age for sure i mean that there are no responsibility to the label it's like the responsibility is on you i'm autistic i know i'm not wearing any trousers in public but i'm autistic and it's like well am i allowed to tell you to put some trousers on or is that a hate crime but is that is it weird the modern adhd autism revolution is basically fallen out from nuremberg almost yeah so it's like it wasn't nazis fault for holocaust it wasn't your fault that you're an hour late because adhd yeah that's like should be this other way around yeah like the nazis did the holocaust yeah and you're an hour late yeah i don't care i don't care why you did it you're just following orders i was just ignoring

1:00:06yeah just ignoring orders your honor um now eight years uh eight years after nuremberg The psychologists Olds and Milner implanted electrodes into rats' brains. Maybe it's related to Charlie. That sounds like something. They accidentally discovered stimulation in pleasure centres. See, look, me talking about having little buttons in the brain, you laughed at me, but it seems like more and more we're finding out that there are little buttons you can push. Pleasure centre. Pleasure centres, pedo centres, genocide centres. Bish, bash, bosh. Look, I've always said I believe in phrenology. Yeah, good.

1:00:44Brain buttons. They allowed the rat to stimulate their own pleasure centers by pressing a lever that was connected to the electrodes in their heads. The rats would then, one of them basically gave them sexual pleasure. Yeah. And the rats would then press the lever 2 ,000 times per hour for 24 hours, ignoring food, water, sexual partners, mates. They did this to the point of exhaustion and death. Yeah. So there was a rat who, Fred again, came themselves to death. If we hadn't given Charlie a job, this would be... Yeah, you do. Yeah. I mean, that would be a nice way to go. Yeah, maybe. Starving, because you're...

1:01:21Wanking as well. I think most people, if you had that option of constantly doing it, you probably would. It's basically the same experiment nowadays. Rather than giving Rat an electrode, it's giving you a quick shot launch masturbator. Doesn't leave. Charlie, stop it. Smoke's coming out. Charlie, stop. Charlie starves to death. Starves to death. with a fucking air fryer all around on his dick. And this experiment identifies the reward circuit, which is dopamine and serotonin release and all that stuff. Well, ADHD is about, fundamentally it's about having your dopamine receptors all fucked up. Yeah.

1:01:59Right, so you can't release it naturally, so you have to find it. The reason why you stim... Because as a child, you quickshot launch too much. That's what Freud would say. Because you got shouted at on the toilet once? You're on the toilet and you didn't do a poo quick enough. Yeah. And then you quick shot launch masturbated and now you've got ADHD and you can't concentrate. Yeah. Look, we've gone from physiognomy and from phlegm to a rat coming to death. So not that far, really. Really not that far. We've barely taken a step forward and we've mainly gone sideways. Yeah, sort of boomeranged. Yeah.

1:02:29We were getting somewhere. We've gone sideways. But psychology, listen, for all of you listening, watching I reckon you'd commit the holocaust as well if you were told to thank you I also reckon you'd press a button to come until you died see you next week you rats you're Nazi rats on the Patreon tomorrow we will be dealing with the Stanford prison experiment very interesting very fun stuff and you also get early access to next week's episodes. But each way, we'll see you next time on Finn vs. History for more historical films. Bye. Bye.

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