White Slavery, Victorian ISIS and The Big Bunda Tree | Gordon of Khartoum (Part 2)

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1:02welcome back to fin versus history with me is horatio gould hello sir it's part two of our general gordon story a romp oh it is a romp i'm having a lovely time through colonial equatoria Can I just say I'm having a lovely time? It's like a warm bath. Take me back. I want to go back. This is where I think if I was time traveling, I'd go back to 19th century. I think that's well documented, Finn. I don't know. No, I just want to make it very clear. I think you managed to say that maybe three times a week. I love this time. I love it. Born in the wrong era. Yeah. General Gordon, if he did podcasts, that's me.

1:38You're the General Gordon of the podcast. I'm Chinese Gordon. I should be called Chinese Taylor. You should be called Chinese accent Taylor. it's quite a different thing i love that oh yeah chinese accent taylor yeah he's a national hero yeah yeah got statues of chinese accent taylor statue oh the ronaldo bust but it's me doing the eyes and the team that's chinese accent taylor people look back it was a different time was it i don't know it didn't really make sense at the time to be honest um jamaican accent taylor yeah another another bust you have several busts big batty bust big batty bust listen um general all gordon this is a kind of pause in his adventures because he's back in england having defeated the um taiping rebellion for the chings um led by chang led by chang in china yep uh so he's now back in gravesend uh and he's basically commanding fortification works on the thames it's funny how bleak britain always feels when you go back to it yeah yes it's always so exotic and incredible these like the films lawrence arabia cartoon yeah but as soon as you go back it does feel like off it feels like it was all a dream you're back in gravesend it must do that's why he's so bored he's like fucking gravesend gravesend really yeah i was in i was in you know shanghai gravesend have you done that gig the curb gig there uh i have not but it doesn't begin with an h so i imagine it's fine it's actually all right is it yes it's fine anyway so he now devotes his time as a kind of you know religious social outreach for uh urchins uh what he what you'd called working class children right yeah the word urchin that's not used anymore it feels very over time it's an industrial working class child right mudlarks is what they they have you ever mudlarked sorry have you ever mudlarked i do not have a predilection for mudlarking no it does sound like a victorian euphemism for being gay it does yeah mudlarking mudlarking in the thames mudlark mudlarking mudlarking would you say that philip schofield was mudlarking or is that live action role-playing as a gay man i don't think he was live going into the woods i don't yeah mud lopping very different to laughing you don't want to get his defense could have been i was mad lopping but imagine going imagine going to a lap session but you're there for a mudlark session and then you basically when you say mudlark what do you mean okay a lot of layers there but mudlarking i've had friends who have mudlarked in the thames mudlarking is still a very modern thing god there's a thames because you can literally you have to have a mudlark license this is true when soho what are we talking about what are you talking about i'm talking about in it but you know what mudlarking actually is i thought i did but no i'm not sure it's when you go to the banks of the thames it's like aqua dogging yeah right yeah so you go to the bank of the thames and then look for shit right oh there's literally a thousand years of history or you but you're not allowed to dig without a license okay and then a professional mudlarker will take you on little tours you'll find little roman mudlarker um right okay yeah so it's like um treasure hunting without a metal detector yes okay fine so he spends gordon he's uh he probably is a repressed mudlarker but he also um he spends 90 of his income on charity he describes his period as quote the most peaceful and happy of any portion of my life which doesn't seem quite right given he's so fired up by seeing action yes but i guess this is the most peaceful this is the interesting as he's not at war no which is most of his life but i guess the reason he loves going to war perhaps is because he's a non-offending homosexual slash pedophile with his own sexual urges in gravesend in london he is has to deal with his latent non-offending homosexuality slash pedophilia and he takes it out on his urchins and he takes it out on the mud larking he goes to mud lark to let off steam yeah so he takes boys off the streets washes them clothes does he wash them himself we don't know this is where the historians get quite tense because when does victorian christian charity bleed into um pedophilia it's a it's a brilliant question thank you and one that i'm not sure this country's ever really solved i need dimble to be fielding this on question time was you know this is the long the pull it the tug at this thread you end up at jimmy savile yeah the the charity work you tug off this thread tug off this mudlark you you know the the charity what the charitable pedophile is a british archetype it is which people want to paint gordon what you mean archetype do you mean like like a tarot card yes you could have a card that's called the charitable pedophile yes and it's and it's savile with a snake on him like this and uh yeah you can have your tarot red the hand taketh away exactly the hand feeleth oh did you have your cards read yes what does it say i don't want to talk about it but anyway i've just donated all my money to oxfam and i feel like i've earned something um i would like a little treat because i've been very nice oxfondle oxfondle um now he had done this in he refers to his boys that he i mean again you know having boys is it's building it's building a case yeah but it's also i think it's quite sophisticated he refers to them as the as as his wangs because that's the chinese for king and he's chinese gordon i mean that now we know the history of it that does sort of make sense but it doesn't read well if you don't know that no it's actually because i was in china they called wangs and it's actually what they call kings when did the term wang mean uh penis in english charlie this is crucial in the case we're building a case building a case i'm for the defense and i need to know 1933 1891 he's innocent just the man is innocent just he's an innocent man and maybe the fact that he had boys called wangs uh and maybe if people thought he was a pedophile at the time then that is why the word wang now means penis interesting so gordon's charitable work for boys led to assertions that he was a homosexual.

7:44Slander. I mean... Slander. I know, but there is something brilliantly Victorian about someone doing charity work and being called a homosexual. Are you gay? That's what I mean. I love this age. I'm running a marathon. Are you... Why? Are you gay? Raising money for who? Yeah. What, water? Are you gay? I'm doing a Tough Mudder. Tough Mud Larkham. All right. Why have you got Sir Elton John? Because he looks like he could be a paedophile and he does a lot of charity work. I mean, look at that. I mean, he does look like my nan. I mean, yeah. Look at what? What are you going to get up? What I will say, actually.

8:14Compare the two. Yeah. Do you know what it is? It's what he's done, Elton John has realised, if he dyes, keeps his hair dyed, he can avoid turning into Savile. Because if you have red glasses, which I noticed you have. Yeah. Now, what's the deal with that? Why are tinted glasses a thing nowadays? I think, to be honest, it's because... Is it because it's cool, or is it because you're trying to tell me that you're gay and you want to do something? We can't, no. Well, I want to know why people walk around, because it's not just him. You see, nowadays, you see lots of people with tinted glasses. We're looking at a photo belt on John and he's got his earrings, so I know he's gay, but he's also got these red glasses.

8:47Well, I think the reason people get red glasses is you're sort of splitting the difference between actual glasses and sunglasses. It's a halfway point. Right. So that's what you're doing. But what weather is that for? I've seen you wear them in size. Is that because you can't deal with lights because you're autistic or? Oh, no, they're not like, it's not like an autistic glasses thing. That's what I think it is. It's a fashion statement. Right. The statement is, I could be a paedophile, but we can't know. Okay, right. That is quite the statement. Yeah. So we've got a fashion statement. Yeah. Is that being bold?

9:18Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Yeah. And is anything bolder than that? It's a hell of a gambit. It's a gamble. So if Gordon was alive today, would he have had these little red glasses? The stats are backing it up. They are. They probably would. The Dictionary of National Biography describes him as a - Maybe it's so you don't see age. Right. No, like 3D glasses. Oh, do they dim age? They do dim age. Right. he describes gordon the national dictionary the dictionary of national biography describes gordon as a quote great boy lover uh he's never married uh he didn't have a relationship with anyone it seems well this could be heathian oh sorry ted heath yeah sorry i didn't mean to you haven't heard heathian yet not yet but i love i like it a lot i i have a heathian streak i do have a heathian streak and i don't see some days you feel heathian oh yeah exactly it's a it's a ted heath day don't talk to me.

10:10I feel Wilsonian a lot you know when you're on the back foot. Yeah I'm quite often Wilson's second term it's second term Wilsonian. No I have a Heathian streak for sure. But that's what it feels similar to Gordon he potentially is homosexual has rumours of being a paedophile doesn't see women. Yes it is and also we were talking the last episode about how it's so uncomfortable meeting new women imagine that's my Heathian streak it's a new woman that comes into my life and I don't know how to greet her and I would it's easier to meet go away and just walk away you could chest each other belly bumps that's what my daughter does that could be we're going to meet a new woman that's what my daughter does at the side of the school gate she puts a school bag on her front and goes belly bumps and then just starts bumping people yeah well I think that's a nice way to greet a woman it is nice yeah so he says that he could only hurt a potential wife because it was inevitable that he would die in battle because he was a gay pedophile he's a gay pedophile and he knew he'd have to fight at some point and if I was the wife of a gay pedophile would hurt my feelings yes um uh gordon at the age of 14 says that he wished he'd been born a eunuch now this is just a response thing to say yeah but he's also talking about being wanting to be released from his quote vile body in which his spirit is imprisoned so so there's there's a he's got he's got body issues yeah he's a teenager with body issues yes he's got we'd now say he's got body dysmorphia that's really wants to be freed from this vile sack i mean i guess i i sort of relate with that sometimes you know the hammy cage that is the body i wish sometimes it feels like yeah it's dragging you down from the divine to have to be dealt with the the filth of it also quite constantly aging and crusty body yes i see your point was also quite a convenient excuse to frame it as i wish my pure soul would be freed from this pedophile's body it's quite a convenient separation of church and study i wouldn't be surprised as well if the soul went and then you realized the body wasn't the pedophile it turns out the soul was i'm a pedophile in my essence.

12:04Actually, you're just a pedo driving a car. Yeah. This is a puppet. I'm in a pedo car. You get out. No, I'm a pedo car. It turns out I've got a pedo license and all the only cars I can buy are pedo cars. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. Brussels clean up nicely at Sweetgreen maple glazed, roasted and edges perfectly caramelized Sweetgreen's fall harvest is back on the menu and the season's most overlooked little green vegetable is dressed to be devoured.

12:45You know what to do. Order on the Sweetgreen app. Push your limits, train with precision, see the results. At Equinox, that's high performance loving. Everything you need to lock in and unlock your potential at equinox start today at equinox.com yeah so gordon uh we don't know if the references in gordon's letters about his need to resist quote temptation and subdue the flesh yeah relate to women or men i think it's pretty clear it's men um there's also this kind of gathering historiographical noise that says maybe he wasn't homosexual but kind of maybe asexual autistic which we've talked about but again in the Victorian age what's that?

13:29what does that even mean? sexuality is so repressed everyone's autistic they're putting fucking dresses on chair legs as with Heath let's gloss over these allegations then they're baseless as well I'm concerned this is a man who liked rolling around in the mud with boys then washing them and giving them food you know we don't know if anything was untoward what could be untoward about that? you know people are like oh Saville's a pig so James Saville James Saville yeah pete i won't i won't have this slander general gordon sir jane savile stop slandering their names slandering british heroes uh we get to uh the the the issue of the sudan uh now with that we should say that that's why we're wearing fez hats and we didn't mention that once last episode and also in last episode gordon didn't even come close to africa no we're in china the whole time this is sort of a chinese hat isn't it i don't yeah i don't know there's a chinese hat that's like yes there is actually short fares but i don't think it's already we basically never wear hats so i think to do a china episode in affairs look an oriental fares uh is a kind of it's not that yeah if you put if you had a longer if you had a longer thing if you're watching a Chinese Gordon and we've got these on Fu Manchu hat but he's Gordon of cartoon we're looking at photos of Chinese fares he's a GOK yeah the his now the fares we've realized we just because we've been putting wearing these hats go this is one of the most impractical hats ever what could this possibly design for apparently it's so that you could uh pray as a muslim without um with your head touching the floor or so your head could touch the floor your head has touched the floor imagine you've got one of those australian um fly catcher hats you know like a cowboy hat with all the corks like that would be a nightmare if you're praying five times a day yes the corks would be going everywhere exactly and you so this is a way your forehead can touch the ground, which you need to do, but also you're still wearing a hat.

15:19Yes. Yeah, I guess because this is an age where it was very rude not to wear a hat. Yes. So you had to do something. Hats were imperative. Yeah. So in February 1872, Gordon is promoted to colonel. Now, we should just place this early on in the episode. Gordon meets his end at Khartoum in 1885. That's just before Jack the Ripper. It is just before. It's about three years. It is four years before Hitler's birth. Is it? Oh. Yes. okay so that as well uh and it is after just in case anyone anyone's wondering it's four years before hitler's birth it's after the invention of the gin and tonic i imagine must be they're swilling g and t must be fuck me i love a g and t in the film cartoon he's drinking brandy and soda which i b and s's bs yeah uh which i've never had and i can't imagine that it tastes nice no but i imagine yeah you hadn't been exposed to as many tastes back then no i also do feel like brandy well this is what i'm saying i like saying i like the kind of person who says should we have a brandy i like that that feels good i want to be that guy but it does seem like a bad drink i like whiskey and i feel like it's not much of a lateral move to brandy but i'm scared right i'm also you want someone to hold your hand not going to black clubs where they drink brandy and corvazio and stuff but they would never call it a brandy they'd be sipping henny hennessy you don't hear you just never hear a black person say i love brandy well brandy's a name so actually you yeah you probably would hear that but they'd be talking about their wife or their girl mama right right okay or their side piece their side piece or their baby mama or their um their birth mama or whatever i'm fluent in black culture as you'd expect someone called jamaican accent taylor I'm going to leave that one.

17:02So while traveling to Constantinople in the 1870s, Gordon meets Egypt's Prime Minister, Ragib Pasha. So he talks about him entering the service of Egypt. The Khadiv. Is that like a sheriff and a boss? The Khadiv of Nottingham. Yeah. The Ottomans technically run Egypt. Do they? Yes. Egypt is a sort of semi-autonomous region that's technically under the Ottoman Empire. But Cairo. Hence the fezzes. Right. But the British are getting quite involved in Egypt. Yes. The British and French have loaned the Egyptians. We're truffle pigging around. We're hunting for truffles. Yeah. And there's a big old fucking truffle in Egypt called the Suez Canal.

17:42And the British and the French have loaned the Egyptians 93 million pounds in Victorian money to build the canal and to operate it because the Egyptians mainly know camels. Right. And then they're in a massive debt to us. and so Britain kind of has to try and get involved in Egypt in order to ensure that it can always pay its debts and it can run the canal. Yeah, because Cairo is a sort of nerve centre of all of Britain's operations in North Africa, Arabia, Middle East. Yeah. Who's that, Charlie? This is Iman Ahmed Abdel-Ati and she is the world's heaviest, fatest woman. Is that her official title?

18:23But is she from Egypt? Yeah, Egyptian. Wow, okay. The heaviest living woman in the world. Was Egyptian, yeah. The second heaviest woman in history. Seven and a half inches. Died 37. Quite chody. Is that less or more than you'd think for the world's heaviest woman? 37. She made it to 37. Yeah. What was her final weight? She was also four foot seven. So she was tiny. To be heavy with that little height. What's Egyptian cuisine? They eat with their hands, right? Is it bread? Is it scooping bread? Is it a camel hump? We've seen that video. I'm recording a part of the camel hump. It's kind of scooping wet stuff.

18:55Egyptian food's nice, actually. I was in Egypt last year. There's some good stuff there. What's she eating? Hey, what is she eating, do you imagine? Because hummus can only take you so far. Yeah, it is a stealth weight gain, though. So we're looking at, well, I guess. We're looking at pictures of a dying fat woman. Let's be clear. World's fastest woman, who weighs nearly 500 kilograms, is lifted out of her bed by a crane and put on a cargo plane to be flown to India for surgery. Now, I would imagine that's perhaps breast reduction surgery. Yes. Maybe. She's got a couple of honkers there. Yeah.

19:32Well, no, I think she's got a lack of breast considering how big she is, to be honest. I think from the neck down, it's hard to say what's breast and what's tummy. Yeah. Say what you see. A wall of her room had to be brought down to help bring her out. Yeah. Think of what you think the world's heaviest woman looks like. you'll probably be pretty close yes so i guess if you're having to do a forced side return for weight loss in your house uh you've got an issue not not to fat shame i mean you're yeah as a former fat person i think you have you have rights to talk on this as well thank you yes i do you're you're you know a couple of a couple of kilograms away from a cargo plane to two minutes pies away from a fucking cargo plane so britain is kind of involved in egypt but mainly to protect it when does egypt become a british uh it's after this it's after this i think because because cecil road also wanted to build uh cape town and that's i thought that was when so when did um egypt become a british colony i don't think uh egypt is officially a british colony at this point he's 82 oh right no that veiled yeah it's de facto control of the nominally ottoman province until 1914 when it's a formal protectorate there you go so then ottoman empire collapses 1914 britain gets it right but basically so yard sale so we're sort of involved but it's mainly about the suez canal right we don't really care about anything but also as we'll discover the ottoman troops and the egyptian troops aren't well trained enough to protect the suez canal so britain is It's at risk of becoming a quagmire for the British Empire, Egypt.

21:13So in 1874, Gordon accepts the appointment as Governor General of Equatoria, which is in the southern Sudan, under Ismail Pasha. Now, Ismail Pasha is the Egyptian prime minister, whatever the fuck, and Sudan is sort of a... Egypt has its own colonial ambitions in Sudan. Because you just go down the Nile and then around a bit, and you get to Sudan. yeah you ever been to sudan i have been right on the border have you four months ago oh right um and parts of where kicking it off uh sudan is as big as western europe so it's fucking huge right and it's all kicking off far down away it'd be like saying it's kicking off in italy saying it's fine off here um but yeah they're both uh countries that run down the nile that's kind of where all of civilization in both countries is sort of done down that one river um and the borders have constantly moved um but uh and it's desert the sudan it's complete very inhospitable uh so the khadive of egypt offers gordon 10 000 pounds gordon insists he could do it for 2 000 pounds because he you know he he's a moral man he just wants to help um now we get to the thorny issue of uh gordon's anti-slavery right obviously people think the british empire was all slavery but what never gets talked about...

22:38It does in some circles. Of course, in some circles. In some very popular podcasts, I think it gets brought up a lot. Yes. But to my social circles, I feel like the outlier in saying, well, there was a significant period of time where Britain was going in and trying to stop slavery. The out-interruptor at dinner parties. Yeah, exactly. I feel like. Sorry. Actually, there was quite a lot of men trying to stop slavery. You look at the watch. This is going on for an hour and a half. let's end it now I actually yeah pudding is too late I'm going home to eat some chocolate I actually think Britain stops slavery but yeah it definitely is missing from some of the narratives that Britain was the first country in history to truly make it illegal to have slaves but then they used that to as a liberal interventionist way of helping their imperialist ambitions so they basically went around Britain was the only country that could afford to not of slaves because they're so highly industrialized.

23:36I'll tell you what it's exactly like. It's like now when Britain and America are telling India and China to go to net zero. And they're like, we've just fucking got fossil fuels. They're sick. At the same time, we're like, don't use slavery. And the Sudan are like, fuck it. Do you see how much stuff gets done with slaves? The economy's booming. And we're like, no, but it's immoral. It's a similar dynamic. Yes. Is it like if a pedophile becomes a pedophile hunter? Is it the same as that? No. um hold on i do think you i think it is a bit i don't like calling the british nation a pedophile we're a nation of pedophiles we are not a pedophile we must aim higher than that we are no we're not i'm a pedophile

24:24full stop how many podcasts is there any podcast in the country where the producers go i'm a pedophile no disguise on it and we'll leave it in the edit not even a smirk we'll leave it in the edit and there's a certain section of our audience who fucking hates i'm a pedophile ah fuck it we said about the story of a guy emailed me on the patreon saying look i really like the podcast but can i i'm having can i have a refund because of all the references to the hosts being paid paedophiles i'm fine with historical paedophilia but the idea that you're we're gonna we're gonna transfer you 22 pound 50 because charlie says he's a paedophile no he's non-offending much like much like general dormant i mean we're all non-offending paedophiles technically aren't we aren't we i mean i'm a non-offending murderer aren't i right yeah i guess you could just say non-offending anything if you're not that.

25:20I'm a pedophile. Right. But we were getting on some pretty interesting historical ground, actually. Yeah, and I was the one who tried to quash it, but you indulged him. I did, I did. You should never indulge this boy. Anyway, so Gordon is tasked with extending Egyptian central authority along the Nile down to Sudan. I think a lot of the villages and settlements along the Nile in the Sudan are basically like slave raiding ports. So he is pursuing... Because the Arabs are unbelievable slavers and have been for hundreds and hundreds of years. They enslaved whites. Yeah. Okay. Let's be clear. In the 17th century off the coast of Libya, the Barbary pirates, the Arabs, they stole the Irish, the Spanish, and the Italians, and they made them slaves.

26:05And it is quite funny because I can't really think of three more work-shy groups of people than Irish, Italians, and Spaniards. Anyway, obviously that didn't work out in the long run because... But reparations, please. It makes you feel sorry for the slave owners of anything. But obviously they go, these slaves don't work. Let's turn around and go down Africa. Yeah, you go online shopping and the clothes don't fit. Right. Do I have to get them back? I'm going to have to go somewhere else. I'm going to turn around and these guys - It's too hard. Please, I want to break. When is break time? When is four hour lunch?

26:40When is four or five hour lunch? It's crazy. You're making me work twice in day. What's going on? I gotta wake up early. I have to go to bed late. It's crazy. I'm sorry. It's not worth it, actually. It's not worth it. No, I don't want... Why I wear cotton? I don't want to wear cotton. I don't want cotton. Anyway, the Greeks and the Italians made bad slaves. But that didn't stop the Arabs trying. He's an abolitionist. He's an SJW. Yeah, he's woke as hell. He's dyed his hair blue at this point. But Gordon, he's kind of... He finds it difficult because it's so embedded, slavery. in Egypt and Sudan.

27:18So he goes back to England in 1876. But it's because of industrialisation, right, that means you can move beyond slavery. Yes, I guess so. It's like robot hoovers. Yes. And that's why in the American Civil War, the industrialised North didn't need slaves as much as the rural South. Yes, interesting. The southern economy was still... Yeah, because everyone says it was more a moral issue, but it was basically they could afford not to do it and the southern economy couldn't. Gordon gets kind of disheartened at the amount of slavery and the kind of impossibility of the task. So he goes back to England in 1876, but a month in England, he decides to go back to Sudan because he gets bored.

27:58Maybe all his wangs have grown up. And he now asks to be made governor general of the entire Sudan, I guess because he wants actual power to stop the slavery. When he gets there, he abolishes public floggings. So he's a spoiled sport. I imagine he probably quite liked the flogging things with his sexuality as well. He disbands the irregular forces and he puts petition boxes. So he likes private floggings, not public floggings. Private floggings, please. Keep it to yourself. Whatever you do in the comfort of your own home, fine. But not in the public square. He suppresses some major rebellions.

28:30And by 1880, the slave trade in Sudan had been largely broken. Is suppressing a major rebellion him fighting against his own paedophilia? No. Well, yes, I guess so. He then also smashed the gangs. Gordon smashes the slave gangs in Sudan in 1880. And he's exhausted. He returns to England, having resigned, having felt like he's done his job. But again, he gets bored in England. So then at some point, he goes to Mauritius. And this is fucking hilarious. Charlie, you're going to love this bit. He thinks he finds the biblical Garden of Eden. And he thinks he finds the Tree of Knowledge in Mauritius, which is the Coco de Mer palm tree where the fruit resembles a human buttocks and then there's another bit of the fruit that looks like a big dick.

29:20So he thinks the tree of knowledge. What does that then mean in the story? The thing about Protestantism versus Catholicism is that you can have your own interpretations of these things. So it does mean that an individual can come up with this sort of shit. Yes, so he thought the tree, because there were two fruits, one of them looked like a dick the other one looked like a big bonder this must be the Garden of Eden this is like the Garden of Eden this embodies carnal desire but also it's a man who seemingly is not having sex but it's also quite so when he sees a butt tree he goes insane but what's quite funny is he then thinks the forbidden fruit is this tree which would mean that Eve eating the apple is Eve taking your big sort of cactus willy and like

30:07Adam's like don't go down on that fucking plant would you it's weird and then eve's like yeah whatever yeah it's a bit on the nose i feel because i think the symbolism of the apple forbidden fruit that works i don't think it needs to be a cock and balls tree no it's the cock the serpent who tells eve to then eat the arse of the cocoa fruit so eve's like oh but you never see that it does look like an arse it really looks like an arse can that be a coincidence no no listen can that be a carly arse can that be a coincidence i'm not saying it doesn't look like an ass what i'm saying is it's a big leap from that tree looks like an ass to that's the tree of knowledge from the garden we could have come from that maybe no when you say can that be a coincidence follow that train of thought well like it's too perfect it looks like a perfect too perfect for what to not be for us not to be related to it it looks exactly like us but i guess shapes in nature often repeat so maybe not a fucking bunda yeah bunda anyway because most living things have a bunda of sorts right and no i don't i've never seen a bundle like listen gordon goes to rishas and finds a bunda tree and has a uh religious he has not busted his entire life so he basically has like a a vision of god when he sees a bunda plant meanwhile political turmoil in egypt and the sudan is intensifying uh there's an urabi revolt in egypt with only ends with british intervention and in Sudan, we get to the Islamic leader, the proto-jihadi, Muhammad Ahmed, the Mahdi.

31:43And this is, I think he's a Sufi, not Muhammad Atta, Charlie, but again, it's a long road to Muhammad Atta. I think he's a Sufi Muslim, which is mystical. Right. And he - Is Sufi Muslim, are they the ones that are linked to Iran? The more mystical - We talked about Sufis in Iran. And I think that - Can you just Google this? train of islam is in iran charlie quick note whenever we're talking about islam and we want to know something i really want to get it right yeah famously i think they'd appreciate that they really appreciate they really appreciate you trying to get it right so sufis are into like mystical so yes he was a sufi scholar and sufi muslims are there yeah i don't know there's a branch it's a it's a it's a minor branch more mystical yeah it's more mystical than uh others as well anyway the Mahadi Muhammad Ahmed he claims that he is now has he seen the prophet Muhammad or he's kind of related to the prophet Muhammad weirdly there's a lot of this in this story because general Gordon has his own quite mad relationship with God he's coming up with his own theories that this bum tree is the tree of knowledge you have the millenarian uprising in the China yeah so a lot this seems to be basically just the people who are running stuff or causing the problems of people who've just had their own interpretations yes he was a holy man the Mahadi was a holy man who proclaims that he was a prophet sent from heaven to save muslims from the cruelty of their rulers so what the mahadi does is he becomes a kind of uh anti-imperialist uprising figure much like the uh typing rebellion had um he who does not believe in me will be purified by the sword it's very it's proto bin laden he's dr grumpykins in some ways in some ways he's an early Dr.

33:26Grumpykins. Proto Grumpykins. Proto Grumpykins. And the Martis revolution is backed by the northern and western regions of Sudan. So he's also known as El Mati El Muntazar or the expected one. And he claims he's immortal and would never die. He does though. Classic. Yeah. An army of 11 ,000 under the command of an English officer is sent to attack. And this is how the film Khartoum opens. Yes. So they are Ottoman troops. They're Egyptian troops which aren't well trained but they have an English man in charge and they are led into a trap quite brilliantly by the Mahdi because the Mahdi actually, his forces are very tactically sophisticated and they have quite good weapons.

34:05And they've got local knowledge, right? Like the Taliban, they use the hills, they use the desert and out of 11 ,000 men, only 11 return to Egypt. They get fucking wiped out. Yeah. And they also, all their weapons, their ammunition, I think Gatling guns are now in the hands of the Mahadi. So it is equivalent to the Americans arming the Mujahideen against the Soviets and then the Mujahideen taking them. So there are two Englishmen now left in Sudan, Colonel Kurt Logan and Frank Power, who's the correspondent of the Times. They start telegraphing back home saying it was hopeless for the Egyptian troops in the Sudan to hold out against the Mahadi.

34:48Because they're disorganised and the Mahadi have this kind of religious ferocity that means that they're quite like, they're united in one mission. They believe in something. Now, Gordon believes that if you give the Sudan up to the Mahdi, there'll be no limit to his power because he sees the Mahdi for what it is. They're talking about a caliphate. It's like Victorian ISIS. And Gordon sees that and goes, well, they're going to then take over the whole Arab Muslim world. And they're also going to bring slavery back big time. And Gordon is anti-slavery. They're both two people with really strong religious convictions.

35:23Yes. Going up against each other. In many ways. With completely conflicting worldviews. It's Blair, Bush versus Saddam. Yeah. It's liberal intervention for their own good, you know, kind of thing. Starting or growing your own business can be intimidating and lonely at times. Your to-do list may feel endless with new tasks and lists can easily begin to overrun your life. So finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything as a built-in business partner can be a game changer. For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10 % of all e-commerce in the U.S., from household names like Gymshark, Rare Beauty, and Heinz, to brands just getting started.

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37:17brussels clean up nicely at sweet green maple glazed roasted and edges perfectly caramelized sweet green's fall harvest is back on the menu and the season's most overlooked little green vegetable is dressed to be devoured you know what to do order on the sweet green app at this point gordon is back home having he's still writing about the big bum tree and he has had an offer gets a call he's had an offer he's had an offer from uh friend of the pod leopold of belgium um uh who wants that's a tough one that is yeah no that's a tough one for me um friend of the pod leopold ii of belgium who is up to no good in the congo and he's asking for gordon to come and oversee it now people are up we will do gordon doesn't know what's going on there barely anyone knows i don't know what's going on i think we can't know we can't know but we will do a series on the on the belgian congo don't worry um first they came up to jimmy and then the king leopold ii and i said nothing when they came after leopold ii i also said nothing you know he's weeks away from going he's he's accepted the job for leopold and he's going ago managed the belgian congo um but gladstone the prime minister at the time a uh a woke liberal sjw non-interventionist um rosebud nymph of a man he does not want troops involved in the sudan yeah uh gladstone uh basically there's a lot of pressure and there's a lot of scenes in this in the film um oh he's a strong advocate for south government yeah right yeah woke nonsense anyway there's a lot of pressure on Gladstone to intervene to protect the Egyptians' ability to pay the debt back to Britain from the Suez Canal so it's very complicated but basically he does not want to get dragged into it because he doesn't want to he doesn't really believe in troops on the ground he's sort of anti-imperialist Gladstone which at this time he's Jimmy Carter a little bit almost but he's like it's funny to be an anti-imperialist at the height of the British Empire.

39:32It's quite difficult. There's so many competing interests, like the realpolitik is that you have to maintain the empire, but he doesn't really believe in expansion for its own good. So he's very polar opposite to Gordon. What he does is he then says, okay, we're going to send one man, this mad fucker Gordon, who's been drawing big bum trees. We're going to get him off that. But also, something we have not mentioned is Gordon is a national hero, and there's media about it. It's a celebrity. celebrity yeah so the it's sending gordon to them it looks like we're sending our best guy this is very famous in the which is a new sort of fame that's only come about with the rise of the newspapers yes but is that equivalent are we said is it like sending like beckham yeah kind of genuinely it'd be like when we send beckham or bear grills and sebastian co to to try and get the olympics it's a similar thing right um it's sending aunt middleton to sort out you know of Greenland or whatever.

40:27Or is it sending Allardyce down? Give it, you know. A pint of wine. Give it Allardyce. So anyway, so what Gladstone does is he sends Gordon to organise the evacuation of the Egyptian garrisons that are in Khartoum and a few other, like, Europeans. Gordon issues press statements attacking the rebels as a, quote, feeble lot of stinking dervishes. Right. Is dervish a slur? Sounds it. Can we Google that, Charlie? Doesn't sound good. I want to know. Doesn't sound like a compliment if it comes after. No, it's a Muslim mystic. Right. So there you go. My old boss was a dervish, a whirling dervish. He used to be trained with some monks and he would like to stand on nails and then spin.