Ep 515: Crafting Deeper Client Relationships To Drive Loyalty, Referrals, And Gain Career Flexibility with Sarah Baker

0:01Sarah Baker: Welcome to the Financial Advisor Success Podcast, where you go behind the scenes with financial planner, speaker, and consultant Michael Kitsis to hear stories of how leading financial advisors navigated the inevitable challenges that arise on the path to success and get insight from leading industry consultants about how to break through to the next level in your advisory business. And now here's your host, Michael Kitsis. Welcome, everyone. Welcome to the 515th episode of the Financial Advisor Success Podcast. My guest on today's podcast is Sarah Baker. Sarah is a senior wealth advisor at Mason Companies, an RIA based in Reston, Virginia, where she manages$260 million for 60 client households.

0:43What's unique about Sarah, though, is how she focuses on building closer client relationships, for example, by often meeting them where they are comfortable rather than in her office, which has allowed her to build greater loyalty and generate more referrals. In this episode, we talk in depth about how Sarah seeks to identify and address a client's greatest felt need to ensure she's hitting their primary pain point while also addressing the full range of planning issues. Why Sarah moved away from a standardized client service calendar in order to have more bespoke interactions with clients facing a range of life circumstances and how Sarah mixes in regular in-person and virtual client events to grow her client relationships between scheduled meetings.

1:20We also talk about why Sarah decided to leave two firms, including one where she had worked for 11 years after they were acquired by larger enterprises and how she found new advisory homes. Why Sarah has intentionally avoided restrictive employment agreements, non-acceptance and non-compete agreements in particular, to be able to maintain relationships with her current clients if she ever ended up at a new firm. And why Sarah has chosen to remain a salaried employee rather than taking revenue-based compensation or partnership stakes to provide a more consistent lifestyle for herself and her family.

1:49and be certain to listen to the end, where Sarah shares how being there for clients during their most challenging life moments is a part of a human advisor's value that is hard for digital tools to replicate, why Sarah often works on a new client's portfolio allocation before digging deep into financial planning issues, in part to achieve quick wins in terms of cost savings, and how Sarah has ultimately found success by providing her clients, who have often gone through challenging life transitions, with greater peace of mind that is hard to value in dollar terms. And so with that introduction, I hope you enjoy this episode of the Financial Advisor Success Podcast with Sarah Baker.

2:27Welcome, Sarah Baker, to the Financial Advisor Success Podcast. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. I'm really excited to have you on today and to get to talk about what I'll just call the good old-fashioned strategy of just building great relationships with clients and what it takes and what that enables for us as advisors. I feel like in recent years, there has been this huge push in the industry on how we expand capacity of advisors. With tech in general, more recently with AI, the tech will do more automated touch points and give clients a great tech experience while freeing up the advisor's time to handle more clients.

3:03But ultimately, tech startups in Silicon Valley has basically been trying to disrupt financial advisors with tech for decades without success. Because in the And clients don't just buy us for the tech experience. They hire us to have a relationship with the advisor or human being. And these days, I feel like we're talking a lot more about what makes a great tech experience for clients than what makes a great relationship with clients. And I know, Sarah, you have spent a lot of your career focusing around how do we really build deep and meaningful client relationships to both your success in working with clients and even navigating as career and firm changes have come over the years.

3:42So I'm excited to talk about the analog focus of developing good old-fashioned client relationships. We put in the time, we show up in person, and we really build relationships, and what it's taken for you to be able to do that well over the years. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. So I think to kick us off, tell us a little bit about your advisory firm as it exists today, just so we've got some context here as we dive in. Sure. So I work for Mason Investment Advisory Services. We're based in Reston, Virginia, manage as a firm about$17 billion. And we're split, the uniqueness of Mason, about half is private wealth, you know, families, and that's the side that I serve as an advisor in.

4:32And the other half is institutional, community foundations, endowments, larger institutional clients. Yeah. Okay. And then what does this look like in terms of your practice, your client base under the umbrella? Yeah. So my practice, I started there in 2021. I've been there a little bit over five years. And my revenue is a little bit, just over 1.6 million. I serve 60 families and it's about 260 million assets under management. Okay. And what does team structure look like, I guess, for Mason overall and in the context of you and the clients that you serve? Yeah. So for Mason overall, we have, I think, around 80 staff.

5:23And there's some shared responsibility for admins, administrative support, client service associates. And then also we have a team of financial planning associates. specifically for me i have one full-time financial planning associate and then i share a client service associate with another advisor okay so i'd say about a team of about 2.5 okay because so full-time associate helps you with your clients client service admin is shared i guess just because ultimately there there is only so many transfer and cash in and cash out requests and such with 60 clients. So they have capacity to help another advisor as well.

6:06Yes. Am I thinking about that, right? I think so. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So it's just to me phenomenal metrics from a business and you plus one and a half, sort of like, I think like a triangle where you share a point, an admin point with another, another triangle, 60, 60 high dollar clients,$1.6 million of revenue. Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay. So help us understand what are typical clients for you? I mean, what's the typical profile of someone in the 60? And I want to understand more, what do you do for these people that pay you an average of roughly$25 ,000 a head? But first, who are these clients? What's a typical relationship within the 60?

6:55The largest bucket of clients would be women that have experienced transition, widows, divorcees, single. So they're on their own. And that leads to more of this higher touch relationship as a trusted advisor. And then strategically, Mason, one thing interesting about Mason is the business grew through corporate relationships with companies doing financial planning for like C-suite. And so a lot of the Mason clients aren't local. And so when I joined Mason, part of my contribution and goal and focus was to build the local brand and have more geographically DMV, DC, Maryland, and Virginia clients.

7:41So I have a lot of women clients, folks in transition, nearing or ending retirement. And then a distinction for Mason is more geographically local clients, although I do find myself on the airplane a good bit as well. And so is the business model AUM-based? I mean, are you a firm that charges assets under management and then does the combined planning and investments offering? Yes. We have an assets under management fee. We do have some clients that are paying a financial planning fee, and there are several of those corporate executive type clients that might only be paying a financial planning fee.

8:22We also have a tax offering, and so we offer tax preparation for our clients. And that was really a demand type of addition for corporate executives. They want you to do everything. So you can do their financial planning, help them with the investments, and then prepare their tax return. Okay. Is that something that gets charged separately for? Separate. So separate taxes, some separate financial planning, and then investment management, wealth management fee based on AUM. And so what do you charge separately for, I guess, planning and taxes when they are separate? Is there a typical fee or structure?

9:00I'm just trying to envision what this looks like relative to sizable AUM fees that you've got given the wealth levels that you're working with. Yeah. And the tax revenue. So when I'm sharing my revenue, I'm not including tax revenue. That's a separate arm. So that's not part of the 1.6 million, but I would say a simple return is$1 ,000. okay um i've maybe 1200 1500 you know so that that's a separate fee and i think it's fairly industry average for this area tax preparation um financial planning and i don't do i don't have any specific corporate relationships but i would guess 8 000 to 10 000 would be an annual financial planning fee if you're engaged you know in that type of relationship okay because yours are because you're not living the corporate executive relationship channel.

9:51You're building local market women going through divorce and widowing and such. So you've got, I guess, a little bit of a different client profile than where the firm was historically. Yes. And then some of my colleagues have quite a different client profile. I have a few retired executives that are kind of in that retiree bucket now. Okay. Okay. So, um, so now help us understand just what, what do you do for clients at the end of the day for, again, I mean, I'm roughly mathing here, like it's about, uh, 20, 25 plus thousand dollars of revenue per client. So what is, what does the service model look like?

10:38What do you do for clients through the year? Yeah. So I would say I care deeply for them. I want to be readily available to them and I want to make a meaningful connection in terms of our time. So I strive to know my clients. So I feel like if you're managing their investments and you're kind of protecting parts of their future, you want to understand them and their goals. And so the unique part of, I think what I do is I I don't do a lot of meetings sitting across a table in a boardroom, particularly for women. I found that it's a little bit intimidating to come into a corporate office, sit, you know, this long, this long, you know, boardroom table.

11:18Long conference room table. Yeah. And it's like - With the glass top on, you know, so we don't mess up the wood with the drinks. Yeah. And you're like, hey, over there. And it's like 10 seats over. And it didn't feel conducive to deepening trust and understanding the relationship. So I made a focus of meeting clients where they are, going into their homes, finding shared interests. You know, I mean, I went sailing with a client a few months ago, brought a few of my kids on the boat for the day. I went to see a client earlier this year just outside of Chicago, and she loves horses. And I said, you know, hey, would it be okay for me to meet your horses and go to the barn?

12:02and she was like, oh, that'd be wonderful. And could I bring my two daughters that are home from college because they want to share the horses? And I didn't have the appropriate shoes, so I had to borrow boots. I didn't think about that ahead of time. But I'm in the horse barn, wandering around, checking out the horses, brushing their... And I'm her financial advisor, but that's what's important to her is horses. So I wanted to understand that and enter into that. I had a client recently that was buying a car and she's a widow and she's on her own. And I get scared when clients like that walk into a car dealership.

12:34So I'm like, hey, call me. You're like, I'll talk to the sales guy. And I did and worked through it. And then communicating with her back and forth virtually. And I would show up in person at a half to make sure that she feels comfortable and has a good experience. And she saved six or$7 ,000 through the negotiations. Attending a concert with a client, I was in Key West this spring and the clients loved the symphony and they like, we got tickets to the symphony. So I'm like, sure. Yeah, well, I'll go with you and stayed in their guest home. I mean, early in my career, I remember a client wanted to go for a bike ride and she was in her eighties and I'm like, can I run alongside you?

13:08And I just had this memory of I'm going for a jog while she's on her bike. And I think that meant a lot to her. I mean, I don't know, just lots of stories of playing tennis or going pickleball or going to a concert or whitewater rafting. It's not just the typical like go play golf and chat. I've tried to find their interests and passions and family dynamics and enter in to be a trusted advisor and a resource. And I start there. I don't start with, let me tell you about your tax picture or here's your investment return year to date. I start with a focus on them. I guess I'm just trying to visualize a little bit more of how this plays out as you get going with the client, right?

13:55Nominally, most clients come to us because there's some financial planning related issue that's going on in their lives that prompt them to say, today's the day I'm going to go and be a financial advisor. So maybe if you can walk us through a little bit more, what is the process for you with a new client? I mean, if someone has reached out and said, Sarah, I would love to work with you. I've heard a little bit about you. It sounds great. I think you'd be a great advisor for me. I'd love to get started. What happens? What's the process of meetings and such that you take clients through? Yeah. I mean, I have found that I tend to have a shorter sales cycle because a lot of the prospects that I have are coming in as referrals.

14:40And so it's an initial meeting, and the initial meeting is everything I can know about you. Asking questions about, you know, your family and like, I'll lead with the prospect meeting of like, I can't wait to hear more of your story. And that's like a closing on an email, like when I'm scheduling something, like I want to hear their story. I want to know their life story and how that connects. And then I'll share as much or little as they want. And I try and, you know, ask questions like, do you want a lighter version of our investment philosophy? Do you want to know the full details? And the client base that I've catered to has leaned more on the light side.

15:18I mean, I've had clients that have gone all the way through and they're not even sure what asset allocation looks like or the portfolio. And I'm sure a bunch of advisors are just like, how is this possible? But they trust the relationship and the process and we've identified and kind of matched them along with their goals and put them into the profile. So it's getting to know them, sharing about Mason. I'm not doing a lot of the personal life things in the prospecting part of the process, if that's the question. Well, yeah, just keep taking me through them. What do you cover in each meeting as you go through the series of meetings with clients?

15:59So, okay. So for example, so I had a prospect meeting last week in Maryland and I got a phone call and she said, you know, you don't know me, but I know you. I'm in this medical profession and I've had multiple patients talk about how you care for them beyond their financial picture. And this was related to a client where I'd helped just in her last days because she was what we call a solo senior. She was on her own, no spouse, no kids. And I just felt like I'm going to do everything I can to help her in her last days. And so somehow this medical professional got word of that and said, I think you might be able to help my husband and I.

16:42And then I just went and I'm like, how about I meet you in your home? And I met them in their home and uncovered there were some medical things and some interesting family dynamics to where they felt like they needed a local advisor that could invest in them and help them with a possible transition from their home if that was necessary and managing long-term care. And so that's how they connected. So we spent two hours talking about that. And then I have some pages talking about Mason and are offering the strategy. And then the next step is, okay, so if you can send me a recent copy of all of your investment statements, then I can schedule the next meeting.

17:23And this was just last week, the next meeting to share with you. Here's your current situation, and this is what it would look like at Mason. And then here's what I can do. Like they said, estate planning, they want to update that. Would you meet with us, an estate attorney, which I think most advisors would? And sure, I'd be happy to partner with you on that and sit in a meeting or connect with your estate attorney. Same with tax advisor, all of that. And so you would outright be going with them to an estate planning attorney meeting and sitting alongside them. That would be typical. for you in these sorts of relationships.

18:00Okay. So second meeting is you're getting investment statements so you can do some version of a proposal that we have to go through right here. Here's where you are. Here's what it'll look like with us. Maybe there's some discussion of the tax transition along the way if applicable. Is there more like financial planning stuff coming up at this point? I mean, are you a firm that does a preliminary financial plan that gets presented at this stage as well? We do, but in this scenario, they're retired. So I found that a lot of clients that are over, let's say 70, it shifts from retirement planning and financial planning being a focus to legacy planning.

18:45And this is a scenario where given the amount of assets that I feel like the way I could best help them strategically is yes, manage their investments and then work with them on legacy planning. And that's what happens when you pass away. Where does it go? What does it look like? There was like, there's a, um, some special situations related to their children and trusts and things like that, that to me, I think of for every prospect, what is their greatest felt need? How can I help them? How do I bring those two things together? And for this one, I met with them waiting to get the statements. I'll do that current versus proposed.

19:20I'll look at the fees that they pay now, the fees they would pay at Mason. I'll look at the allocation strategy, how they're invested, certainly for any of the taxable accounts, the gain considerations. And we'll move it over in kind. And we're not a shop where all of the taxable assets have to be liquidated regardless of if there's huge gains. We will build a portfolio strategy around some positions that have high unrealized gains. We'll do like a full comparison. And then for them, I would say, you know, here's how I think I can help you. Beyond the numbers, it's legacy planning. So I'm looking for a beyond the numbers, highest felt need.

19:59And remember too, the client's highest felt need is not always what we diagnose as an advisor, right? And so I'm trying to focus on them and figure out what is their greatest felt need? How do I meet that? How can I connect? And then how do I transfer that to like, in this case, it's legacy planning. So how would, can you give examples of what are greatest felt needs in this context? Like what surfaces in that way? Yeah. A greatest felt need would be, you know, am I, can I retire and not run out of money? Like, am I financially independent? what would happen if I pass away in terms of who's going to take care of these assets for this family situation?

20:46Sometimes for clients, it's a tax thing. I'm leaving this company and I have this stock picture here. And if I don't find or port or move this over, this thing happens. I had one client where that was the trigger. I think that it could be some type of insurance thing. Or if I've just lost my spouse and I don't understand any of this, I need to pick up the pieces. Or I'm going through divorce and my future looks really different than what I thought it was going to be. I need help navigating this new financial picture. And so how directly are you asking this? I mean, are you trying to ask them what's the biggest issue you're facing in your financial life and trying to go that route?

21:29Or are you trying to elicit this because they don't necessarily say it and you're trying to figure out what it is anyways? Yeah, it's more the latter, but I will say at the beginning, I've got an agenda here and I have some talking points or things for us to discuss, but is there anything on your mind that you want to be sure we talk about today? And sometimes it will come up then. Or when they're initially reaching out, it's like, hey, I've got this problem here. Or I just received this inheritance. I have no idea how to work through this. So initial meeting, if I heard right, can be up to two hours as you're really trying to get to know them and their picture and situation.

22:12Yes. Second meeting, you're coming back with some versions of investment and or financial planning proposals to try to show and explain what are you going to do? Yes. The second meeting is how I can help. So the first meeting is understanding their situation and trying to identify in a summary post-meeting, what is their greatest felt need? And then the second meeting, once I've gotten the data, and if it is financial planning, yes, we have a whole process of putting together a financial planning proposal. There's a peer review for that. I mean, we're asking for tax documents, all of the things.

22:47But if it's just the wealth management, investment management offering, the second meeting is how can I help? And that's more of like a current versus proposed on the investment side. So are you cranking out like financial planning software and entering numbers and doing some analysis at this point? Sometimes. We have like an internal software that's like, we'll look through BlackTime and they're adding in their current portfolio and then looking at mapping that over to a Mason investment strategy. Occasionally, we'll put together, if I feel like part of the need is organization, if we have all our statements, we might put together a balance sheet and just prepare that and show that to them so they can see clearly their current situation.

23:33But it sounds like you're not necessarily trying to load in full financial planning software and doing projections kinds of things? No, especially not before we have an engagement with them. Okay. And so what do you end up walking into the meeting with in terms of proposals or deliverables? What do you actually put in front of them at this point? So we have a Mason client proposition that just, it just gives, it's a PowerPoint slide deck, and I'll just pull through some of those slides to talk about Mason and who we are. and then a report related to their investments and their asset allocation.

24:13And then I will just have like a summary of notes of here. They have a large allocation to large cap growth. You know, we have this more value tilt. And so just like a summary from our investment department of themes or ideas or considerations. So it's more like some pages from our Mason deck, the investment data, and then just a summary of talking points. Okay. Who generates the, I guess, investment analysis, investment commentary? Because it sounds like you've got, it's a sizable firm. There's a lot of centralized resources as well as team resources. Yes. So what gets created where? So the investment part of it gets created from like the proposal would be on the investment side would be from the investment team.

25:03So we have investment research and then we have more of like what I would call an investment operations and they're doing the trading. So as an advisor, I'm reviewing and like approving trades, but all of that's generated from this consolidated team. Okay. And so they're helping with some of that in terms of the prospect side. So you would give them a portfolio and say, here's the information. Yeah, can you review, give me your feedback on this? Can we put this into our current versus proposed? Here's the Mason strategy that I think would be a good fit for them. Okay. And that's a fairly newer process for Mason, I would say, in the last year.

25:42Okay. And historically, each advisor was on their own to do this? Yeah, and we've had like Morningstar tools or different things where you can kind of enter it in there. But this more formal process is new. And so – So it sounds like the end of the first meeting is still the primary driver for them to say yes or no is an investment portfolio decision and allocations at this point. At least to say, I'm willing to make a change for what I was doing to work with Mason to help me implement this. Yes, I think so. And so then what comes next? Like, I like the proposal. Sarah looks great. Let's move forward.

26:26Yeah. I mean, so then we move the assets over, consolidate, then we schedule a meeting with them. Okay. Everything's here. We want to show you Black Diamond, get you set up, show you all the investments. And then the investments becomes the lead discussion item. And then once it's set up and it's running and they're comfortable and they understand it, then I start moving into, okay, like what can we talk about beyond the numbers or how else can we add value to this relationship. Okay. So for your end, you're not necessarily going through a full e-money, money guide, right? Capital financial plan before they get through an initial investment setup process.

27:11You get into it next to deepen the relationship afterwards. Yes. And I would say that's not true for all Mason advisors. So there are some of my peers and colleagues that are, they want to do a full financial plan before they create the investment strategy and invest it. For me, I try and find an appropriate Mason fit that's better than where they were and get that moving over and transitioned as soon as possible. And then work into the other parts of how we can make their life better and contribute to peace of mind. So I'm just curious then, so do you want Are there times you want to get to planning earlier?

27:50Do you worry about how much planning do I need to do to make sure they pick an appropriate investment policy statement that fits the plan or tax considerations that crop up? Right. I would say the answer to that is sometimes. So I often, what I'll do in some circumstances is what I call retirement readiness. And so if they're like nearing retirement or their cash flow is going to change significantly, which could impact their investment strategy. I want to work through that retirement readiness before we invest. But my theory on this, and I'm interested in your thoughts, if they're invested 70-30 before, and I can port that over to a Mason similar 70-30 model with a lower cost in terms of the expense ratio, a lower advisory fee, consolidated, packaged together without tax impact, why not do that and get that done and then navigate the financial planning?

28:52So I don't want to make major changes to their portfolio. I don't want to create significant tax impact. And I don't want to change their legacy goals or do big beneficiary shifts or titling changes. But I feel like in a lot of cases, if it's not warranting a major allocation shift, we can port them over into a similar model and then work through it. And I suppose the reality as well for, it sounds like you've got a client base that tends to be higher dollar, right? Mathematically, it's a couple million dollars per client. They tend to be older. I'm thinking very practically. I'm envisioning you don't have a lot of clients where, oh, we really got to do the financial plan and run the numbers because I'm not sure if you're going to be able to retire and I need to make sure you've got enough equities in there to get you through retirement.

29:45It sounds like you've got more clients. This isn't really a is the retirement plan going to survive scenario, which means we're not financially constrained. means much of the allocation is probably dictated by risk tolerance or other goals. They have probably already determined to get to whatever portfolio they have because they're 60 or 70 years old. It's like, this isn't their first portfolio. Right. Exactly. There's a thing. There's a status quo they're already working with. Right. It's, I want to build trust. I want them to have peace of mind. I want them to sleep at night. And so most of these clients, you're right.

30:21I'll tell them, there's this large section of your portfolio that you will likely never touch during your lifetime. And so when we're kind of navigating the long-term, but it's true. I work with a higher average client assets under management that I think typical. And I tell people like, I'm teaching my kids how to save and I'm teaching my clients how to spend. I find that I'm, you know, as an advisor, working with my clients and working through the behavioral finance part of getting them to learn to spend some of the money that they've worked so hard and for so long accumulated and saved. So what comes next as you're going through this?

31:04It sounds like you've got a, we're just trying to get dollars moved and placed, get some incremental savings in costs and fees and positioning, get them to an initial peace of mind that's on the transition, and then we'll continue to dig deeper on planning. So how does that, so like what comes next? How does that flow? How are you setting up the conversation to say, so now let's go deeper? Yeah. So then I offer a quarterly meeting with every client going forward. And particularly in the first year of onboarding, I want to check in once a quarter. And so we have an agenda and there's an investment review part of it.

31:45And then there's wealth management items. And so the wealth management items might be, okay, you're approaching Medicare age. Let's talk through that this year or social security, or you've mentioned this family dynamic. Let's have this conversation. Or you have a concern about long-term care. We want to make sure we're reviewing your situation or do this analysis or financial independence. I'll talk about tax planning or strategy usually once a year, particularly as it relates to the portfolio, if there's taxable assets, RMDs, QCDs. I mean, all of those planning things were building into this wealth management section of an agenda and just hitting points.

32:26But I remember the early days of sitting through a full financial plan and I would sit and I would see the eyes just glaze over of clients and it would be two hours, three hours, four hours. And I'm just, you know, I was just observing and I observed a lot of information communicated and I don't know that a lot of it was received. And so I don't want to overwhelm. I don't want to sit down with a hundred page financial plan and present that to a client. So small, and at one point I had a cycle, tax and cashflow, estate and insurance, network, balance sheet and goals. And I would do these like quarterly things.

33:11And now I've gotten even looser in that of like, okay, what's important to this client for this year? And when they're not paying a consistent financial planning fee, I think I feel more freedom to like, do they need this? Do they not need this? Should we talk about this? Should we talk about that? What's most important? And in a lot of these meetings, less is more. and getting them to understand one or two things or create a deeper level of understanding or trust and also just saying, hey, you don't need to understand all this. This is what I'm here for. I'm going to help you with this. We can go as deep or little.

33:45I tell all the clients, I need you to know something about this, but not everything. I don't have this systematic, this quarter's tax and cash flow, next quarter's insurance and state. I've moved from that. So you used to have a more structured client service calendar and you moved away from it. Yes. I mean, and that was at a prior firm. So since I've been at Mason, I think I've had more autonomy to build a practice exactly how I would like to do it. And I care deeply about financial planning and being strategic with taxes and having a buttoned up estate plan and reviewing their insurance and property casualty and getting their Medicare resource and all of these things.

34:28But I just find that my clients lead more into this, keep it simple, don't share words I can't understand. And because that's what's cultivating peace of mind. So it's wealth management. It might have one, two, three items, and then a portfolio review. And that's cycled through once a quarter, particularly in the first year of onboarding. There's a part of that you said that sort of like very awkwardly hits home to me of, I guess I'm paraphrasing, like my client is not going to have peace of mind if I keep throwing words at them that they don't understand. because I think there's an awkward truth in that for a lot of what we do with clients.

35:10At best, the industry has a lot of jargon. At worst, some of us feel a pressure to say, I've got to show I'm knowledgeable and add value and can point out things that they didn't realize that should be disturbing them so I can help them solve them, which might technically sort of be good for adding value. But if my goal is peace of mind and calm for my clients, I'm basically continuously trying to identify problems for them so I can solve them and add value. And they never get peace of mind because every meeting I show them a new problem with jargon they may not understand. Right. I mean, I sat through, I think it was a NAPFA session years ago and it stuck with me that anytime you say a word that they don't understand, like the trap brain goes up and they start thinking, what is this word?

35:58What is this word? And everything you say after that word, it's tuned out. and so the only way that you can effectively communicate is make sure that you know i mean we have all of these like acronyms right and that you know some clients don't even know what rmd is you know so you say you're rmd and and you'll meet with a widow and she's going to spend the next 30 minutes what is rmd and that's a very basic thing for us but being very careful about how we communicate i think is really important to peace of mind trust and serving clients well So then take us further in that direction. What pulled you away from having the regular cycle of things that you were covering in a meeting, like the service calendar approach to what are you covering each quarter or semi-annually, what goes on the agenda?

36:48To be totally honest and authentic, some of those clients that were on that rotation were paying a financial planning fee. So if a client's paying you a financial planning fee, I feel like I have to hit every single area of financial planning every year. And so in my current role, I don't have a lot of clients paying a financial planning fee. So I feel more freedom to do what makes sense. And I also felt like it was a little stale. I almost could take the insurance and estate review from last year and copy and paste into this year's agenda in this estate and insurance quarter and not much changed.

37:29And I also observed some other advisors when I was kind of joining and entering into transition relationships. They were doing retirement analysis for like 80-year-olds that had significant wealth of like, here's where your assets are going to be at age 100. And I was like really scratching my head. Like once you're in your 80s, likely like you're not going to run out of funds if you have$20 million under management. And so it's like, there were the, I find that there were these prescribed ways of serving clients in these areas. And a lot of times it just, it didn't fit the stage of life and it got stale or they transitioned out of it.

38:10So I'm like, let me just start from scratch and simplify it and have a wealth management section and find a few things that are important to each client. So if your client base gets too diverse in their own needs and circumstances, it gets really hard to have a standard calendar because you just start serving up things that doesn't make sense for them. You have to weed it out. Now you've created structure to have a standard structure and then an additional structure to have exceptions to the standard structure. Exactly. I don't think when your average client was four or five million, you should have a standard structure for all of them.

38:48Like you said in the beginning, and I actually don't think too much about the revenue or the fees that client pay, but that's a lot of money to just have the same data pulled every quarter. I think that especially with AI and all of these resources and tech stacks and tools, we have to be personal and unique in the way we're serving these clients, particularly at this asset level. And so that's what takes you instead towards, I'm just going to have really clear meeting agendas and make sure I've got something or things to talk about each agenda without being too prescribed about what they're going to be.

39:26Yeah. And also, I hold the agenda loosely. If I'm on with a client and the client wants to tell me about this situation happening in her life, this happened recently, and we spend over an hour on it and I don't get the agenda, it's fine. I don't stress about that. I know she's taken care of. I know her funds are allocated. I don't want to force an agenda on a client as well because it's their time. And again, I think just an interesting paradox relative to more firms out there I'm seeing that are adding planning fees to you, the part of the freedom to say, let's just focus in and cover the few things the client wants to cover and then move on without adding more than we needed to is because they don't pay a separate planning fee.

40:14Everything I'm doing is value add on top of a baseline AUM fee. So I don't need to add this up to be more than it needs to be. I can just cover what I need to cover that's most valuable for them. And that's enough and successful. Yeah. And look, it's not 100 % client directed. In our meetings this past meeting cycle, we did a beneficiary designation review for every client. And so create a report from eMoney. Here's all your retirement accounts. And we made multiple changes. Like, it's interesting that they're like, hey, oh, I don't know if I want that. Or we're like, do you want to add per service on this?

40:50Because now that your son has a child or different things. And we also did, you know, a balance sheet, you know, like a network statement for every client. And so we just built that into our agendas, two additional pages. And I sometimes pulled those out or felt like it was too much. Occasionally, we didn't get to it. But we did, you know, that's a financial, very much a financial planning thing that we added to every client's agenda. So is there a standard structure, at least, to the meaning agenda? I mean, I realize particular items will shift by client and season. Is there at least a standard structure of things you like to cover that you put on an agenda?

41:30Yes. So we start with a personal update and the next heading is wealth management items, which can vary and be different depending on the client, depending on the season. And then we have the investment review section or review market update, portfolio returns, allocation, and then questions and clarification. And then I end every agenda with tell me something good. and I ask the clients like, and it's been really fun and cool to hear and in some ways challenge them a little bit to think about something good in their life. And then nine times out of 10, I would say the clients are like, you tell us something good about you or to my associate, like Sarah, I have my associates also named Sarah, what's good for you?

42:14And so that's been, that's was kind of like a fun, kind of a fun meeting ending. And so those become, I think it was five anchor sections, like personal update, wealth management items, investment review, other questions, clarifications, tell me something good. Yeah, with a preface at the start, like, hey, here's our agenda, but what's most important to you to cover today? And also, I don't work with a lot of executives that say, you got 20 minutes, like start, stopwatch. That's not been an ideal fit for me as an advisor. Okay. So my agenda is not built around efficiency and my practice is not either.

42:55So there's no like – there's no parentheses, five minutes, parentheses, 15 minutes after each line item on the agenda. Okay. No, it's not like, okay, all right, next one. I mean I have had a few situations like that and I find it very stressful because I want to do what they – I want to serve them well. And I'm like, oh, I got to push through this or go to the next one or stay on track and on task. So, yeah. And do you send agendas in advance? Only if we feel like the client has requested or is going to want to see it. Most of the time, no. Okay. And so you're not necessarily asking them to add things to the agenda, shape the agenda in advance.

43:38You just start there in the meeting. Okay, we've got this agenda, but is there anything you wanted to talk about? And that's their opportunity to set it in a different direction. Yeah. Or what's not on here that you want to be sure we talk about today. Okay. Try and make it open-ended. Okay. So I'm just trying to, I think, process through when I look at how a lot of the industry has evolved around its service models in recent years, it's various versions of clients pay us these fees. They're fairly sizable. bigger clients, it gets to be a pretty big number,$10 ,000,$20 ,000,$30 ,000. I would like to retain these clients because that's a good amount of money as long as I'm doing my service work.

44:24And I feel like for most firms that has taken us in this direction of more touch points, more regular touch points, tech to support touch points, client service calendars to facilitate touch points and make them more efficient, like all these various things that we've done. And so I'm just trying to reconcile like, and you're basically going the opposite direction on a lot of this. As you've got 60 amazing clients and$1.6 million of revenues, like clearly it's working. And so I think I'm just trying to figure out if there's some gap to bridge here. Do you not feel the pressure to show value, to justify the fee, to explain the, Sarah, you're lovely, but remind me again what exactly all the things are that you do that I'm paying you$25 ,000

45:18Sarah Baker: a year to manage my portfolio? Do you just not feel that pressure? Does it show up differently for you? How does this thing I think we all have of feeling like we need to show we are adding enough value to be worth the fees that we charge, how does that get expressed for you? I mean, I think that it's like that MasterCard commercial. It's peace of mind is where I feel like we translate the value. Like we have strong portfolio returns, particularly a year like this year and the market's just going up and up and up. It's so easy to show a portfolio report. And then when the market's going up, I tend to show or write it in my summary, the performance in dollars if it's going down in percentage.

46:08And so it's like, oh, you're up this many dollars this year. And that's such an easy thing to hang your hat on, right? Like that translates to a lot of value. Your portfolio is up 350 ,000 in eight months. And then you say the fee they're paying is whatever, 30 ,000 or something. And so, gosh, there's a lot of value there, but I want to go beyond that because, and I remind clients like, Hey, you know, the market's down about one out of every five years. And so here's why. And I want to do some basic education on that. But I feel like when my client's husband passes away and she calls me, he's like, he didn't make it out of the hospital.

46:46He had a blood clot. And I'm like, I'm there. That's the value. You can't go to a robo-advisor and type in, my husband just died. What do I do? Or ask chat GPT. So the relationship is where I find I'm contributing the greatest value to the clients. I think we have great investment offering. Our tax department's amazing. The financial planning's fantastic. We're a coordinated financial quarterback with attorneys, connected to insurance agents, outside CPAs. We're doing all of the things, but that trusted relationship, like, hey, can you talk with my child or they're going off to college? How do I navigate this?

47:24I mean, all of these sidebar conversations and engagement, I think that's, for me, that's the value. That's the greatest value. So it's some version of the fact that I've got a manageable client load and I'm not doing a lot of the other things is what lets me be there in the hospital with my clients in a phone call response when they say, my husband just passed away. I don't know what to do. Yeah. I mean, I want a very timely response and have a lot of accessibility to those that I serve. And it does sound like you are still, is what the industry would characterize as, as fairly high touch. If I think you said your baseline goal is quarter quarterly meetings, quarterly check-ins.

48:15Yeah, that's virtually, yeah, quarterly, virtually check-in. I think in person, my goal is once a year. Okay. So I'm not going out and meeting with clients multiple times a year. It's usually once a year. But if I can review it virtually and I can do a few check-ins where I'm going over investments or hitting taxes or other things, that's great because that frees up more meaningful connection when I see them in person. So I know you've seen a lot of advisors and firms over the years. I guess I'm still just trying to better understand. I mean, we all say we try to do great relationships with clients.

48:52I mean, no one says, well, you know, my client relationships are kind of superficial and shallow. I mean, we're all going for good, high quality client relationships. What's different about yours and what we're doing that's making this work better and deeper for you? I mean, it's hard to answer. I mean, I think I try and be strategic in doing events for clients. I do some unique client gifts. you know tell us more about those like what kinds of events and gifts so for you know women of wealth so we've done you know like flower arranging classes around mother's day i've done multiple flower arranging classes and which is really fun um i've had like a color consultant speak to a group at like 60 vines you know right there in russon town center um a therapist come and talk um we've done like a wine tasting we've done some events at like bull run winery where we just talk about, like I did, I created this like course essentially, it's like investment 101.

49:56So it's like, okay, all of these like words, like what do they mean? Like when your advisor sits down with you and talks about asset allocation, like what is that? And like, why do you have a different amount of stocks versus bonds and just sort of a basic investments course. And we've done some events around that just so I think some of those things, and that's one where it's like, Hey, bring a friend. And, or if you have someone you're that you'd like to connect or you think would learn more of course those events are open to that too but that's been I think impactful to kind of meet them and have some social group outings I've done some like smaller client meetups with like where one client's referred several others I'm like hey can I take you all out you know to dinner in DC and connect things like that yeah unique gifts I mean trying to remember and connect and And I mean, I don't know that I'm doing anything that different from everybody else.

50:55Oh, it's a lot of events you're starting to add up there. I mean, how many do you do in a year or something? Like how often are these happening? One to two in person a year. Okay. But I mean, this is a new thing. Mason, you know, this is new for Mason to be doing events. So one to two a year, and then we'll do a few webinars. So I've done some of those. I mean, like our most recent webinar was on Medicare. you know so just for all the private wealth clients and and then where does all the growth come from for adding these clients i know i've been trying to think about that because i mean i've had a goal like i i'm fairly purposeful and like i want to grow at x amount and when i started at mason you know i said i want to have a million and a half of revenue and when i was hired the reason I was hired was four advisors were retiring and it was a huge percent of the total revenue of the firm.

51:51And so they were looking to hire senior advisors. So I had a large amount of clients that I was transitioned internally. So that was part of it. And then I was at my previous firm for only three and a half years, but I had developed some deep, close relationships. So several of those clients, the firm had sold to a larger national firm. And so several of those clients had reached out to me. And I mean, that was a huge surprise because I wasn't there that long, but I got a lot of new business from prior clients that I worked with. And then the third bucket was really internal referrals through the women of wealth.

52:39Like one situation, there was a divorce and the wife had decided she was going to work with another firm, but she was still connected on tax. They were like, well, maybe Sarah Baker can help. So I just joined a call and helped her with her quarterly tax estimate and said, hey, I'm specializing in connecting with women and kind of helping them. I know it looks a little different. And then the rest is history. And she got lots of funds from the divorce and then kept what she had at Mason and significantly increased the asset size. So there's a few of those through major transitions and then client referrals.

53:14I mean, I do try and go beyond for clients, particularly when they're on their own. So one, this was last year, a major health event. And so I got connected to the healthcare power of attorney and I was trying to share and make sure the finances were connected. And then after the client passed away, the power of attorney came to me and said, So I'm done working with you, but I'd like to keep working with you.

53:37Sarah Baker: And I want to become a client myself. And I'm like, I saw how you treated this person and I need that. And so he moved all of his money over. And so there's been a few of those where I just journeyed alongside and then got exposed or connected with folks. And they were like, hey, can I work with you? Is there a goal for how many clients you add in a year? No. I mean, I kind of have a max because I'm not looking to grow super fast because it doesn't translate well to how I service, I guess you could say. So one a quarter with like five to six max in a year is where I am right now. And so this year I've added two or yeah, two.

54:26I've added two this year and I have a few things pending. Okay. But I mean, on a client base of 60, that's almost 10 % a year. I mean, that's actually a lot of, on a percentage basis, a lot of client growth from referrals to compound at that rate. Most of us see are more like 4%. percent. Yeah. I think I also, I've just had some other like networks, like I play tennis. So I've had some folks from tennis become clients. A friend I knew from church was like, Hey, I have this pension. Can you manage it? Cause I just had done a lot of volunteer work and they knew I was in this space. So there was a few situations like that, but I think in just over five years, about a million of revenue I've added, you know, organically or through connections.

55:17oh wow so so when they seeded initial clients and some came over like it was like 500 000 of revenue okay and so it's been adding 200 of revenue per year i guess between i guess so uh clients you add and it is an aum model so market growth helps to lift some of that over time right so i i haven't yeah so i haven't been on this one client a quarter trajectory the first several years like I felt like, so I felt like the first five years I'm building, building the base. I'm like, this was the third time I'm starting, you know, from scratch to build a book. And so I felt like zero to five years is the building.

55:59And now I'm in like client experience, client servicing, you know, segmentation. Now I've kind of redirected where I, you know, one client a quarter knew I can manage and integrate, but I've, I've kind of shifted the focus from growth to, yeah, retention, serving well, the experience, all of those things. So now help us understand more of the career path and journey. I think you just said this is the third time you've had to restart from scratch. So what brought you to financial planning world originally? How did you find your way to financial planning? And then what has been the path through the industry?

56:41Yeah. So I always loved people and money. I wanted to be a cashier when I was a child. My favorite Christmas gift was one of those cash register, like a toy cash register. Because you can do the money and talk to them all. You can do the money. Yeah, people and money. Yeah, it was people and money. So it was like that from the beginning. And so out of college, I got my start at Vanguard and had a wonderful experience there. Because I'd had an internship, they started me in what was called the Retirement Resource Center, which wasn't basic call center core participant services, but it was like talking to people about retirement.

57:13And I kept like, I was like, loved it. I just love talking to people. And then they would say, can I get your extension? And I'm like, yeah, sure. You know, call me back this extension. And then my boss one day was like, Sarah, like you can't keep doing this. Like you're getting all these inbound calls and we're supposed to be like outbound. Like you're supposed to be taking calls and like, you can't like, you can't do this. And so I'm like, okay. And so then I realized like, maybe I want to go work with clients on an ongoing basis, not just one-time phone calls. Like I'm enjoying that they want to call me back.

57:46Sarah Baker: I want to talk to them again too, but it wasn't working at Vanguard. And so I got hired in flagship, which is like the million plus and then was there, but I interviewed. And so this is in North Carolina. So I found another firm and I landed there. This is like 2006. And I was there for 11 years and I loved it. I had great clients, like dear friends, sort of formative years for me and going through having my son and some attorney leave and back at it. So is this advisory firm or another asset manager? Yes. RIA. Okay. Yeah. So this is a wealth manager, RIA, where I was going to be able to step in and build my own clients.

58:23And in 2017, this firm sold and it was a very quick transition and the sale was including you know there wasn't anything basically they were going to start doing insurance and having a mortgage resource and things where i just it didn't feel aligned to my values and so they got bought by a bigger thing with more products associated. This was, I guess, 2010s. This was the era that banks and insurance companies and others started buying some of these firms to say, oh, they have clients. We make products. We can cross-sell this. Yeah. It was 2017, but yeah. I thought, oh my goodness, what do I do?

59:11I'm in North Carolina. I was very focused. Well, one, I didn't want to let money lead my decision-making. I've been alongside and connected with several folks in the industry where like they take a job for a higher salary or a bigger bump or this sweetener and I just I knew that that wasn't going to be the priority but I wanted to find a job where I had a salary I didn't want this eat what you kill type of thing because you know I'm the provider for my family and just I felt this like conviction of like I need a salary I need to go where I can do what's best for the clients. Like that has to be, those were the priorities.

59:47And there wasn't much in the Charlotte area. A recruiter said like, where else would you go? I'm like, I have all my families in the DC area. And they were like, well, that's a great place to go for wealth management. So then like, I just, I ended up with multiple offers in the DC area. And then so landed with a firm in Tyson's. Yeah. Okay. So when you're, I guess I'm trying to visualize the transition from, from the prior firm. So I mean, like you left, were you leaving when the deal was announced? Were you like there for a while afterwards and then decided you didn't like how it was going? Did you have a path to take clients with you or was that going to have to be a hard break?

1:00:32What did it look like as you're trying to get to this realization? I've been there for, I think you said 11 years and maybe this isn't my long-term future firm after all. Yeah, it was heartbreaking, actually. Very sad for me. I explored, I found the other offer. I didn't sign the agreement for the new firm. And so then I resigned that day. And then it was sort of one of those things where I got like a text message like, hey, don't come back and we'll just like clean up, you know, we'll box up your office for you. Um, I was like, wow, I'm not welcome. So that was the, the moment, like the acquirer put forth new employment agreements and I didn't sign it and you didn't want to sign it.

1:01:19Yeah. And so they said, no, no sign. Don't bother coming back. Yep. And, and then I think they did like a farewell lunch for me later and I got my box, but it was, you know, um, twice it's happened to me and in both times, and I understand the business risk and ownership, but you sort of feel like a trusted family member that's loved and appreciated and accepted. And then you sort of turn into like a terrorist for the organization. And it's, man, it's a painful thing. I know a lot of listeners probably have been through this exact thing. So were there like particular things in the new employment agreement you didn't want to sign or you just didn't like the whole gist of the buyer and where they seemed it was going?

1:02:07To make this decision and instantly end your career with the firm after 11 years feels like a fairly high stakes moment. So I'm just trying to understand what gets you the point of, I'm going to say no. And I'm assuming you had some sense of the likely consequences of saying no. Right. I had an offer on the table, so I already had a home and a place to go. So that gave me some security. I had navigated the change before. When did you start looking? As soon as I found out they were selling. Okay. It was quick. But I guess it was some number of weeks and months from when you found out they were selling until you actually got to the weeks.

1:02:52until you got to the moment of, okay, it's employment agreement time, yes or no. So you had in that window, I guess, called a recruiter, had them insured you to firms, had some conversations, gotten to a job offer. Yes. Yeah, fairly quickly with a few. Can I ask what recruiters you worked with that found you a job so quickly? I think it was Diamond. I mean, I feel like I'm getting spammed on LinkedIn all the time. There's a lot of them now. Job offers. I mean, even then there were some, I think it was Diamond Consulting out of New York, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mindy Diamond and her son. Okay.

1:03:33Yeah. And to be clear, like this was not a, I'm leaving and moving my client's book of business. No, I had a two year non-solicit. Okay. And so, and that's the really painful thing. You have 50 or 60 clients who are, for me, dear friends. And then the next day, it's like zero. Because to me, the non-solicit is like, I can't work with them, but I also can't be friends with them. And I can't contact them. So that just felt, I mean, that was really, really tough. Because I think the clients are waiting for you to reach out and you never do. So yeah, the other thing that was tricky about that one is I had consulted an employment attorney.

1:04:19And they had said, in order for this deal to happen, they either provide consideration, like a compensation, or just create a new job for you, like create a new offer letter. And they did the latter. And so I felt like I had added new business and contributed to the value of the firm and then was getting compensated zero for it. And that's a little bit tough to go through. But yeah, so that was 2017. Because the good news, the silver lining in this is there was an active job market for experienced advisor, even though you weren't bringing clients. Yes, yes. And that was a scary part because I'm like, I need a salary that's reasonable, especially in the DC area.

1:05:01And I'm not going to guarantee one client. I will say zero clients will follow. That was my answer. Every firm I talked to, like, I have no idea. I've never done this before. I have a two-year non-solicit, zero. Like I'm starting over. And that's how I positioned it. And that was not deal killer? No, no, no. And did any actually follow? A few followed, yeah. Just a very small number. Because it was also like a move to a different state. And so in the brand where I was, it was a very strong firm brand, less of like me as an advisor brand. And I think that's changed. So I ended up at a firm, a great firm in Northern Virginia.

1:05:44And I was there about three and a half years. And it had been offered partnership along the way. And I declined. It wasn't a no. It was a not now situation, just given my life circumstances. And I found myself in the same situation. You know, three and a half years later, hey, we're selling. And it was to a large national firm. Again, so you left the firm because they were selling, got to a new firm, and then three and a half later, some years later, and they're selling again. But it sounds like – but this time you had a – so you had an opportunity to become partner and participate in some of the biz dev value being created but chose not to.

1:06:27Why not? I mean I didn't know that they were going to sell and the value was going to double or triple like the next year, right? You make different decisions if you know you get to flip the shares as it were. Right. I mean, if I would have been privy to all that, I might have made a different decision. But I also am very thankful for where I am today. So maybe not. But yeah, I mean, it was just the partner offer was in 2020. And it was just right at the beginning of COVID. And I was a new single mom full time with a child and just felt like it wasn't prudent. It was one of those scenarios where it's like if a client came to me and said, should I take on this X amount of debt and put this money down to lock in in this situation, this firm is now the time.

1:07:14And I feel like I would have counseled someone else, no. And that stuck with me. And I did check with a few mentors and peers. And it was how I tried to politely respond is like, it's a not now for me. I'd love to defer that decision. Okay. And how did the firm take that? I think fine. But in hindsight, they knew everything that was going to be changing shortly after. Okay. So from there on, they knew not now was actually going to be no because it was going to be sold before the next time this conversation came up. That would be my guess. Yeah. I don't know for sure, but. I mean, nothing negative.

1:07:54Exactly. There's limits on what they can say when things are unknown and uncertain. Right. on outcomes. Yeah, they've all signed NDAs and all of that. So I understand that. So you find out the firm is being sold. So the prior time, it sounds like the issue was essentially you didn't like the buyer and the buyer's strategy of now we can do insurance and mortgages and other things. So what was the context with this buyer? Were you happier with this buyer or same problem or different problems? Different problems. In general, I feel like I'm a better fit for a local independent firm that gives me freedom to serve the clients uniquely.

1:08:45There was a private equity component, it seemed like, in this new ownership. That scares me because I have a core belief in philosophy of like people over things and people over profits. And so I got nervous about that. And then I had a phone call, you know, right before it was announced to the firm. And I'll never forget the owner was like, this is going to be great. You know, we're going to get you to 150, 200 clients in no time. And I just hung up thinking like, I have 75 clients. I know their pets names. I know their children, their grandchildren. There's no way I could take this model and double it and be a mom and have work-life balance.

1:09:28I just felt like the way I serve clients would get squeezed into this more super efficient machine type of model. And that just conflicts with how I feel like I can best serve clients. And then I read the, I think it was a restrictive covenant. And it was like, there was a non-acceptance clause, and I think it was maybe six years. Wow. That's fairly long. That's fairly long. It wasn't just non-solicit. It was non-acceptance. So even if they want to try to follow you, you're not supposed to take it. Yeah. And this is something that I find to be very scary in our industry now, that these non-acceptance clauses are popping up.

1:10:14And maybe it's because of all the M &A and protecting the revenue and the advisors are having these relationships and clients are getting more tied to the advisor than the firm. And there is some mobility when M &A things are taking place, but I want to question it because we're fiduciaries. And so I feel like the basis of a fiduciary is what's best for the client. And so I think it's just, it's a very interesting conversation to like, you know, we want to do what's best for the client, except if the advisor leaves, they can't do what's best for them. Like if this is a 90 year old widow that I've worked with for 15 years and she's like, I trust you, you know, my family, you know, everything, I can't start over with another advisor.

1:11:02You know, I need to like, and I'm like, sorry, no, like I didn't want to have to say no. And I just felt like in my core beliefs, in my values, I always want to do what's best for the client. And so I couldn't sign it. So I had like days in this scenario and I just hadn't finalized where I was going to go. I just knew like, I can't sign this. The non-acceptance. That really, that was the deal breaker. So I guess the, the idea you're going to have to have a high volume of clients was a negative. the non-acceptance was a deal breaker. Yes. Which I guess is paradoxical. It's like you weren't looking to leave.

1:11:42No, no. Until they put a non-acceptance. And then you said, if this is a life sentence, then I'd rather leave. Yeah. And I thought, I could try it out and see how it goes. And maybe I can manage the work-life balance and navigate the comp changes. But when you sign that severe of an agreement in terms of your career and future, I think there was a non-compete in there too, but they also took it out. It was like two or three years originally in like a 50-mile radius or something. Which gets tough for national firms. A national firm. It usually gets interpreted as within 50 miles of any place they have a place of business.

1:12:24So like basically no major metropolitan area. I think so. For the really big national firms, you basically run out of metropolitan areas in the country because they have offices everywhere. And if they don't, they're acquiring firms in new cities, which means even if you leave in two years, if now they have added a branch where you wanted to move, you end up with a non-compete in the city. You didn't even know it was going to be a non-compete. Right. You can work at Starbucks maybe. Yeah. So that was another really tough transition. And I just feel like as advisors for clients, I think they should be able to do what's best for them.

1:13:04Yeah, I will admit from the industry's perspective, I do really struggle with non-accepts. I get non-solicits. I do too. I get not – I mean, yes, depending on the circumstances, I think sometimes firms get a little aggressive on what's fair to non-solicited depending on what clients wear. But I get the principle. Right. The firm's being acquired. There are stipulations regarding revenue. If people leave and draw all the revenue, it creates problems for enterprise value. Right. Exactly. The idea of telling a client, oh, the advisor is left and you're not allowed to go work with them just doesn't sit well to me.

1:13:49Like clients should ultimately be able to decide who they want. I agree. Don't be inappropriate about how you pull them away from your prior firm if you've made commitments. Yeah, exactly. If clients really want to follow, they should have the right to decide who they want. Right. And firms a lot of times are paying out large new business bonuses. And so they've got to protect. They're making an investment in the advisor for that revenue. And there's other onboarding expenses. And so I think something like a non-solicit or some type of agreement that creates fairness between the firm and the advisor financially makes sense.

1:14:22Sarah Baker: Clients are so bound to advisor relationships that firms are getting aggressive on how they restrict them. And again, I get some of that. It feels like some firms are getting a little bit aggressive with it, though. Yeah. And I think that if you're going to do that, I almost think it should be disclosed to the client. Yeah. You know, like it should be in the client agreement that this is, here's your assigned advisor. And if this advisor leaves, here's our policy. Because, you know, clients kind of feel like, hey, you just never called me or you never reached out or I didn't hear from you. I mean, clients feel hurt because all they feel is like you just vanished and abandoned on me.

1:15:01That's not a good relationship thing to do. I'm like, I didn't have a choice. If I called you, they were going to sue me out of oblivion. Exactly. And some firms are more prone to lawsuits than others. And so you have to be really careful. I mean, I had a client that I worked with at the first firm years ago, and she was a dear friend. I went on several like mission trips with her and different things. And I'm going to be in her area. And I hadn't seen her in like six years. And I just text her and she was like, this made my day. And then the second text, she was like, yeah, I'm going to meet up with her for lunch.

1:15:33And she was like, thank you for remembering me. and I'm like wow that like it like stung a little bit because I know for years she felt like I didn't she felt like you forgot her yeah she felt forgotten and I'm like wow so many clients felt that and so that's I mean it's difficult you know just managing these transitions not just the legal and the client interaction but the whole part of it you can send an email and say hey I'm resigning thank you so much for this and you can get no reply and that happens it's a sad thing so what surprised you this most on this path of navigating your career through three different firms, building client base, building relationships?

1:16:12What surprised you the most on this journey? I think I've been one of the things that really surprised me the most and has created a deep conviction in me has been the imbalance of understanding, the gap in interest, and also knowledge between what I would call the financial spouse and the non-financial spouse. So in serving couples, that variance and that gap is, you know, has over and over been a surprise. And then like one story I worked with, the financial spouse was an executive at Bank of America, did his own taxes via TurboTax, calls me one day. He's like, Sarah, and most of the meetings were just he and I on the phone.

1:16:54This was pre-Zoom. And he's like, Sarah, you know, I just got diagnosed with stage four cancer. and I'm like, oh man. I'm like, I mean, while like my firm had been serving this family for 25 years and I'd been in the relationship for two and I'm like, okay, you know, let's look at your beneficiaries. Can I talk with, you know, let's say Susie, like I want to like connect. And I'm like, and he's like, no, no, no, we're going to go to this alternative treatment in Arizona and we're going to work it out. We're going to do this like, you know, vitamin C infusion thing and start these things. And, um, I got a call two weeks later from the spouse who I had never talked to and the firm, you know, again, and she said, do I have any money in my checking account?

1:17:37And meanwhile, the next office over, they're going through all the forms to get her to like transfer the money into her name. And I'm like, listen, I'm getting on a flight. I'm flying to Texas and I spent two days with her. She hadn't used a debit card. This was like, they'd been married 50 years. He took care of everything. We couldn't get in the TurboTax, like couldn't find the passwords. She had these life insurance checks just sitting on the counter. She didn't know how to deposit a check. I mean, she was probably in her 80s and this was like 2005. And at that point I said, I was like, never again will someone not know anything about their situation because you experience grief, you have foggy brain, you cannot learn something new.

1:18:16So that surprised me. It challenged me. It changed how I totally navigated my career and clients, but I've seen that over and over. And it's an interesting thing to manage, but I still feel surprised by it. So what was the low point for you in the career journey? Oh, I think the two changes. I think feeling like I have to make a very fast decision with limited information and then leaving clients behind, like feeling like I'm leaving my friends. When you have those deep connected relationships, it was very, very painful and difficult to manage. Were you able to have a new job and offer lined up when the second firm got bought and you decided not to sign the way that it had with the first or did that playbook not work as well the second time?

1:19:16I can't remember the exact timing, but I ended up with two offers and one of them was Mason. And I know that when I resigned, basically I was paid four days. I turned on my two weeks notice, but it was four days before the conversion. And so I think at the time that I resigned, I was fairly far along with both of these opportunities, but I had not, I hadn't made a decision or received a full offer from either. And same context, you didn't necessarily expect to bring clients or was it different in this situation where you might've been able to? No. I mean, I thought I was only here three years and five months.

1:20:03So I was at the last firm 11 years and not that many clients moved. I was only here, you know, a fourth of that time. And when I was hired by Mason, they were clear, like, we're paying you this salary and this is for your talent. And we don't expect you to bring any clients. And so I think that's in the end why I selected them. And I really appreciated that. But I was like, but if clients reach out to me, you know, I'd like to have a conversation. And they were like, kind of like, Ooh, I don't know. Let's work with our legal team. And I'm like, no, this is like, I want to do what's best for the client.

1:20:37And so then they agreed to that and worked through. Because they had retiring advisors. They had clients to be served. They didn't need you to bring your clients. They needed you to serve their clients. Exactly. They were hiring me for talent to be a senior advisor to step in and work through some of the retiring advisors transitions. Today, all of those advisors have successfully transitioned into retirement. Was this a recruiter again to find or were you, it's like local job listings or LinkedIn or something. The Mason one was a recruiter. So I was working with a recruiter. But the other opportunity was just like a local networking thing.

1:21:21Okay. And so I guess I'm struck or the takeaway to all of it, the experienced advisor not able to bring clients, the jobs are out there if you're looking. It was unique. I don't know that there was a lot of those where the firm had the depth and the experience and the higher level of clients that Mason had, where I could step in at the compensation level that I did and right out of the gate, add value, work into transitions. I don't know that there's a lot of those out there. I feel very fortunate to have landed where I did, given the time I had to manage the transition. So any other, just think of it as like pearls of wisdom from your experience, things you know now in navigating all these career changes that you wish you could go back and tell you 10 years ago when you were earlier on this journey?

1:22:17I mean, I think I wish 10 years ago, I took more responsibility for my own path. As like an older millennial, I was like, give me good feedback and show me a career path. And now I think, and I had to learn through the transitions, like negotiating compensation, very awkward, but very valuable, important, you know, to do promotions, your career compensation, like all of these things. Like, I think I wish I would have taken more ownership of like, here's where I want to go. Here's how I want to direct this. I don't think business owners are like, how can we pay her more or elevate here? It's like, you have to kind of take initiative, give yourself your own accountability and move forward on that path.

1:22:59But also, I never would let money lead the decision. And I would tell everyone that. I remember I was working at Vanguard and TIA Craft was the huge competitor in the area and they paid higher salary. But then it was a different job. And I don't remember anyone going for this carrot of a salary and loving where they were. So I feel like avoiding that as a leading driver, which I think a lot of young people are jumping for increases or pay increases, I would be very careful with that. And as you talk about take more initiative, give yourself more accountability, can you give further context? In what regard?

1:23:47Are there stages or moments in this where you look back and say, if I could have given me advice, I would have done this or I would have handled this differently? Where was it cropping up? Yeah. I got a phone call from the head of HR years ago. Like, hey, we have to increase your salary because we looked across the board and you're under this level. And I was like, huh, I've been getting like highest rated reviews. Like I just thought people just take care of you and just trust the process. And I was very disconnected from compensation. And it wasn't until I like switched firms where I could like negotiate and think through and then switch firms again.

1:24:29And now I'm like, I want to, I'm going to, I'm not a owner at Mason. So I'm like, once a year, you know, I want to talk about compensation, talk about my client base, like review this, like I'm going to proactively in an awkward, often conversation address this. And it's made a significant difference for me. And so there was many years where I just kind of sat back and was like, oh, I'll get the promotion when it comes or this, And you don't want to be that rude person that's asking for money. And so, yeah, I've made a significant shift in terms of how I view that. So any other advice you would give younger, newer advisors navigating their career path here?

1:25:14Yeah, I mean, I would say earn the right to be heard at your firm and with your clients, especially if you're changing firms. When you change firms, you've got to learn the culture, understand their current practices, like really dive in very quietly to everything they're doing to then understand how you might add value or what you might recommend or something to change. And so I think that was like a tough lesson I learned along the way. And for young folks, you know, I think finding that first spot and learning as much as you possibly can about the way they do things and then kind of making your mark is really important to a successful start and or if you're switching jobs, a successful transition.

1:26:01How long does it take to, I guess, like learn your things enough to then be able to start chiming in? I would say six months. It could be 90 days to six months in some cases a year, but I felt like when I did that the first time. What's very interesting in our industry is I find some firms define tenure based on how long you've been at that firm. So I always would say like, okay, when I went to Mason, I have 16 years of experience in industry. And I started at Mason. It's like you have zero years experience at Mason, right? And so how you can affect change and the advice that you share, it's translated differently when you're at a firm where a lot of them have been there a long time.

1:26:48And so that was something that I learned. I do think it's a good six months of listening, asking good questions and learning before you try and say, hey, do it this way. Or have you thought about this? So as we come to the end here, this is a podcast about success. And just one of the themes that comes up is that that word success means very different things to different people, right? It can change for us through our careers. And so you're on this wonderful path of success is like rebuilding the client base for the third time. And it's a million and a half dollar client base, which is phenomenal.

1:27:25So the practice team is in a wonderful place now. how do you define success for yourself personally at this point? Yeah, I think that success for me is visible signs of peace of mind and positive impact, you know, in my clients' lives, my colleagues, while managing my family. So I feel like I'm in this, it is unique and very special. And I'm super thankful that I can be available to my family. I We can take the kids to practices, run in and out from my home, but also pour everything I have into my clients in terms of my career and see the difference. So when I see them feeling comfortable, like, hey, I can go buy that convertible, like when we've been teaching them about like, you got to spend money, you've got all this money, that's success to me.

1:28:17So seeing, you know, they have peace of mind, they're sleeping at night, they feel comfortable where they are. They're not fearful about the future in terms of finances. All of those things, to me, that's a huge, huge part of success. Love it. I love it. Thank you, Sarah, for joining us on the Financial Advisory Success Podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you.

1:28:41Sarah Baker: Want even more ideas, tools, and resources on how to break through to the next level of success as a financial advisor? Check out the leading financial planning industry blog, Nerd's Eye View, at www.kitsis.com, where Michael covers the latest practice management trends and financial planning strategies. And by joining the member section, you can earn IMCA and CFP continuing education credits, along with exclusive member content. Get it all now at www.kitsis.com.

1:29:20Thank you.