248. How to Take Mini-Retirements with Jillian Johnsrud

27:24And that's been a big dream for them. As you know, my dad passed away a few years ago, but my mom is turning 60 this year and she's set to retire. I would love to be able to do this trip with her while she's still young and healthy and have this really great quality time with her. I have a week of PTO. I would need an extra three weeks. I can take that off unpaid in order to accomplish this and have this experience with my mom. And then you just say, like, I know that there's some of these challenges, but I've also come up with a bunch of solutions that I think we can work through this. And when you frame it that way, like you're talking to another human.

28:01It's another human being that has similar goals and values and dreams as you. And it's real tough for them to be like, nah, let's not. Right. How do you position it in a way that isn't just, I'm giving more work to my favorite coworker, or they're going to have to cover me for those three weeks. Or even if it's a longer period of time, oh, you're going to have to hire somebody to replace me. Like, how do we think about, do we present that to our boss? Like, I've already thought about the distribution of labor. Like, how do we go about thinking that way? I think it is important to think through the logistics of how can this work?

28:44What are different solutions? And you don't have to come in with a buttoned up plan. There's my 100-point slideshow of how exactly this is going to work. But enough to show I know that this is going to create some challenges, but I have all of these potential solutions. And if you think you might get a little resistance and if you're really committed to this, you can very subtly slide in the possibility that the alternative is you leaving. Because that changes the equation. Because they're not picking between you going on a mini retirement and that being inconvenient. Or I say no and nothing changes.

29:25Either you go on a mini retirement and that's a little bit inconvenient. or I have to replace you. And that's super inconvenient. And your job is to make your mini retirement the easiest, cheapest, simplest solution of the two. No, that's very smart because yeah, replacing somebody is a lot more expensive, especially if the person's great and everybody is listening, does their job great. So yeah, it's a lot harder, especially as I'm speaking as an employer, a lot harder to replace somebody than it is to potentially figure out a solution. Exactly. And riskier. Like it's more expensive and there's risk.

30:04And this is a hang up sometimes people have about negotiating it off is they're like, I'm too important. My work's too essential. Nobody can do what I can do. Like nobody can cover this. And I had a CFO at an event I spoke at being like, I would love a month off. I desperately need a month off, but there's no way they would give me a month off because I'm too important. And I was like, yeah, cool, cool, cool. If you left, how long would it take to replace you? Because like, that's a really important role. That's really hard. He's like, ah, yeah, that's like, that's like probably six months. I'm like, and when they find someone, how long does it take to get them up to speed to hopefully produce 80 % of what you're doing?

30:45He's like, yeah, that's a long curve, like another six months and I'm like okay so they could either give you a month off or they could take a year of this position not being fully filled and the stress of that year totally and they might suck the new person might not be as good as you yeah and so there are you know for people I think that they're like I'm too important in reality if you couldn't go into work tomorrow for whatever reason, they have to come up with some solution. There has to be some possible solution. It might not be as awesome as you being there, but there is a path forward. When we come back, we're talking about one of the biggest blocks we face going into time off, the demonization of rest and the prevalence of hustle culture.

31:32Thank you for supporting our sponsors. They allow us to do this show for you for free. We'll be right back.

31:40I cannot tell you how stressful it is sometimes to run a small business. I think that small business owners listening, you understand. Everyone else, cut us some slack. It is hard out here. There is so much to think about between payroll and HR taxes, tax filing, direct deposits, health benefits. There's so many things that are really, really complicated about running a business, but Gusto has made it so easy for us. We have used Gusto for four or five years, and then I was using them when I was a nine to five employee on the other side. And they're truly so helpful. Gusto is online payroll and benefit software built for small businesses.

32:20It's all in one, remote friendly, and incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. It's really quick and simple to switch to Gusto. You can just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast. And you get direct access to certified HR experts to support you throughout any tough HR situation. Try Gusto today at gusto.com slash ffpod and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash ffpod. One more time, gusto.com slash ffpod. Back in my early 20s when I was trying to manage my money, before I was a financial expert, it was so overwhelming.

32:57I remember checking my money every single day, tracking every single purchase I made. It was so stressful. And I wish Rocket Money existed back then because I use it and love it now. And I know that it will absolutely transform the way you manage your money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. The app consolidates checking, savings, loans, and investments into a single dashboard so you can get a clear view of your financial picture. And Rocket Money tracks subscriptions and has the ability to cancel the unwanted ones within the app in just a few taps.

33:33Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at rocketmoney.com slash ffpod. That's rocketmoney.com slash ffpod. Rocketmoney.com slash ffpod.

33:51so one of the things that we experience just living under capitalism is that rest equals laziness or that rest is bad and especially as americans i think this is like in our dna you go to europe and they're like taking like three hour lunches and it doesn't fucking matter but how do we kind of get over that or work through that knowing that everything in our bodies and in our brains is going, you didn't deserve this time off. Who do you think you are taking a month or six weeks off? I think there is this narrative and it's especially prominent in certain communities. Like I grew up in a farming ranching community where like literally a hundred years ago, if you didn't work hard all the time, everyone died.

34:39Like that was just the reality. You starved And you literally Oregon Trail. Yeah. Dysentery on the trail. Yeah. And culturally, there's these strong narratives around work and that's one way to look at things. And I think that was a way that really was important 100 years ago, 200 years ago. That was a very helpful mindset that worked for our great-grandparents and maybe it worked for our parents, but it's not the only way to look at the situation. In high school, I played basketball and we do a halftime every game. Every single player does a halftime. And you don't take this break because you're weak.

35:28You don't take it because you're lazy. You don't take it because you're uncommitted to the outcome or you don't care about the game. You take it because it's the opposite of all of that because you're so passionate about the game because you're so committed to the outcome because you're so motivated that you know this is essential if you want to show up in the second half and bring your absolute best this is what you need to do to show up in that manner and it's an opportunity i think for a lot of people So professionally, you need to rest, but you need to reimagine what this second half is going to look like.

36:10Because I've definitely been in basketball games where you're losing the whole first half and you're super discouraged. And it's really hard to be like, emotionally, we're going to turn this thing around and we're going to show up as a different version of ourselves in the halftime in a 30-second timeout. You need a couple minutes to regroup and reimagine what this can look like. And professionally, it can be so important. If you really care about your outcomes, if you really care about your work and the cause and your financial life, why would you show up as the B-minus version of yourself? Yeah.

36:53I think there's this temptation to be like, there's a lot of honor and suffering. Yeah. And I can just keep going. I can just keep going. I'm doing okay. You know what? It's actually not that bad. I'm showing up at work. I'm doing pretty good work. And to be - No one's noticed. Yeah. Yeah. Not to just be content with that, but to feel good about showing up as this really tired, burned out, discouraged version of ourself. Like, that's somehow better. Better for us, better for people around us. You know, when if you get injured working out at the gym, there's a type of person that's like, I'm just going to keep going.

37:34I'm just going to keep doing that exercise that screws up my shoulder. Like, I'm going to push through it. And then there's another person that says, huh, I got injured. Maybe I should take a couple weeks off and recover and then come back to the gym at 100 % so that I don't just spend my whole life injured and limping through it. And in pain, totally. Yeah. Yeah. You have this amazing idea for how employers and business owners can implement mini retirements into job structures as a benefit. We at Her First Under K actually offer a week off paid quarterly and then unlimited PTO to our full-time staff.

38:14And I say unlimited PTO knowing that some people are going to be like, nobody takes time off. They do. This is not a startup unlimited PTO where no one actually takes time off. What do you think would happen if every employee in the U.S. got a paid month off a year? Because that's what we end up doing. We give a week paid off a quarter. So they guarantee get a month off. So the 12th of the year, they're not working. So how would that change work, burnout, performance retention? How would that change everything? I think it would change everything. I mean, there's so many. I put a whole chapter in the book of like, just real quick, 10 ideas of how this isn't just good for your employees.

38:55it's good for you as an employer. You mentioned retention. So if you imagine a person knows they're going to get a month off every year, as long as they work there, those people start, they start planning this out. Like, hey, how about next month? How about next year? We'd like, what if we take the whole family to Mexico? That would be really cool. The year after that, we could do that cooking class in Italy. And oh my gosh, you know what? Then my parents, they're probably going to be retiring. What if we did a hiking trip through Ireland with them? And all of a sudden, they've got like the next seven years.

39:29They're not just leaving you as an employer. They're leaving those dreams, all of those things that they've imagined that they're excited about. If they walk away from your company, they're walking away from all of that possibility. And so there's a lot of, in the creativity, in the performance, in the excitement, and the engagement, but also in the cross-training and in the resilience of your teams and in your company. In every company, there are some people who gather up all of the information and know all of the things and do all of the things. And they're amazing and they're such high performers and we love them, but it makes everyone around them slightly more incompetent.

40:16and the only way we're going to distribute that information and that skill set is if we pluck these high performers out and kick them out for a month and make everyone else like step up and learn the things no that's so true i didn't think about that but then your company's more resilient because it's not just one person who knows all of the things you have that motivation and you have that deadline to transfer that information. Let's say you have an employee that you're thinking about promoting into a role, but you're not 100 % sure if they can do it. Will the person who has that role send them on a mini retirement for a month and give this person a chance?

40:56Let them take over 60 % of that person's role for the next month. See how they do. Test it out. Sample it before you make the commitment. And it's good for those employees because it's exciting. To have that opportunity to stretch your skill set and to learn and to have that additional training, it makes your work feel more dynamic. So it has so many benefits. And I think that the companies that have a little bit more of that visionary mindset and that holistic mindset are going to say, this is going to be our competitive advantage. In 50 years, everyone will do this. But for the next 20, we're going to crush it and we're going to be the first out of the gate.

41:41Yeah. Okay. So one of the things I keep thinking about as we're talking is how do we make sure we're doing this proactively and not as a, I'm so tired and so burned out and I'm ready to burn my whole life down. Like, how do we make sure that we're doing this in a way that is proactive as opposed to reactive so that we don't potentially look back and go, oh, I regret quitting my job that I actually kind of liked or at least tolerated because I was just like, I was just so tired. Yeah, I think it is one of the hopes. I hope even if people aren't like, I have my next mini retirement planned. I hope they read the book to get this vision of what it could look like, what this model could look like.

42:31what if I decided you know I'm going to take a mini retirement every three years and you're 24 and you're like so two years in I'm going to request I'm going to negotiate a month off or I'm going to negotiate three months off and then in between when I switch jobs I'm going to take a three-month gap and that just becomes your standard operating procedure that every two years, every three years, every four years, you're like, this is going to be my rhythm. This is going to be how I move through my career. I'm going to have periods of intense work and then intense rest. And the reality is some people enjoy that rhythm better.

43:15Some people function in that rhythm better. There's people who like the kind of HIIT workouts And there's people who like to slow and steady. And some people love working hard. They love being intense. They love being all in and super passionate. And that's amazing. But you have to counterbalance that with rest and periods where you fully disconnect. and I think I was a person that felt guilty about that, like being that way. And I was always trying to like just go 80%, just like be more sustainable, go 80%, like have better boundaries instead of just being like, this is who I am. Like I like to go beg and then I like to like go home and do something else.

44:00Totally. And make that part of the plan. Yeah. Yeah. When I think about certain moments in my life that were supposed to be the vision I had, I think of like, you know, in my, I was 20, 1920, I studied abroad and I remember thinking, oh my gosh, this is going to be incredible. I was in Ireland and I'm going to be here and I'm going to be in Europe and it's just going to be great. And the first month of study abroad was one of the worst months of my life. Like it was, it did not stop raining. My Irish roommates were like dealing drugs out of my house. It was like, I really didn't have any close friends there.

44:44It was so isolating. And I was like cold and wet and miserable and not sleeping. And I remember thinking that whole time. And again, I have matured enough to know that this is not necessary. This is not helpful thinking. you should just be grateful you're here. Like people would kill to be in Ireland. People would kill to be on a study abroad. You just need to suck it up and be grateful you're here. And one of the things that I love that you talk about in your work is it's like, it's not always going to be rainbows and daisies and luxury and sitting by a beach with a little pool or umbrella and your drink.

45:20Like it's not all going to be that. So can we talk about some of the challenges you've experienced and how do we navigate those, especially if we've dreamed of this mini retirement and it's maybe not all it's cracked up to be? Yeah. I mean, I've been talking about this for so many years. So I've had the opportunity to talk to hundreds of people who have done mini retirements. And it's funny because they have concerns going in. Concerns usually around money and employment and healthcare. And that's not what goes off the rails. They're like, no, actually those things were fine. That worked out great.

45:59We had some other problems. And I think people can internalize that as like, this is a me problem. This is really specific to me. This isn't something everyone else is going through. When in reality, there can be some really common challenges. One of those is you might be more burned out than you think. The function of burnout, it's really incredible in a sense. Burnout is what allows us to move through a difficult thing to get out of it. If you're in a war-torn country and you have to go somewhere else, if you have a famine, you have to travel for six months, burnout will get you through that.

46:46And in part, it does it by making sure you don't feel so tired that you just like lay down and die. Like it keeps you moving forward. But sometimes once your body has access to rest, it fully feels how tired you've been. And so there can be a situation where people are like, I'm going to go on this mini retirement. I'm going to do a hundred things and it's going to be awesome. And then their body senses, oh, we can sleep now. We can rest. And it like hardcore shuts down. But the problem is people internalize that is that it means something about them. and recovering from burnout can be a little bit like recovering from the flu and you're not motivated and you want to get up and you don't want to unload the dishwasher and you're tired and you want to rest it would be crazy to be like why am I so lazy why why can't I function why don't why am I not a motivated person why don't why am I not ambitious why am I not getting stuff done maybe it's because I'm not at work maybe work's the reason that I can accomplish a lot as a human being.

47:57And without work, look at me, I just lie in bed and take naps. No, you're recovering. People can create this whole narrative in their head about essentially how they're a bad person because they feel tired. And the helpful reframe, if you know that this can happen, if you're expecting, I might be more tired than I thought, is to go, huh, man, I'm really tired. It's a good thing I can take a nap because I'm on a freaking mini retirement. and just move on with your life. So even if you have like a bunch of plans and a bunch of travel, but you suspect you might be burned out, I tell people just travel a little bit slower, be more flexible, like don't overschedule it, don't overcommit yourself.

48:42If you're not feeling motivated, give yourself that day or two to just chill out and go to a cafe. You don't have to do all of the things right away, but it's stuff like that that can really trip people up and take what should be a really incredible mini retirement and make it like, ah, this wasn't exactly what I was envisioning. Yeah. I always think, and I know Kristen will feel the same way too, especially as actors, this would happen where it was just crazy. This happened almost every time. I wouldn't get sick for the entire run of the show. And we do our last Sunday matinee and I'd wake up Monday and I'd feel like death.

49:24Like I'd have a sore throat. I'd have a fever. Like I would feel terrible. And it's like my body knew it was like, every time it was like, okay, we're getting you through the finish line. And then I'm breaking down on you. And like, that's literally what you're describing, which is like, you go, you go, you go, you go, your body sustains you till that point. And then the moment it gets rested, like, thank God, here we go. I'm going to give you everything. I'm going to give you the sore throat and the mucus. And here we go, buddy. You're just going to have to deal with that. But it's really more remarkable.

49:54And I've never heard somebody phrase burnout that way, but you're exactly right. It's like the thing that's getting you through all this stuff. And the crazy thing is, is that especially in American culture, we can, if burnout is like allowing you to run away from the bear to get out of that situation, we go, hey, we're pretty, we're pretty good at running from bears actually. I think we're doing an okay job, maybe we should just run from bears all the time. And it's like, well, no, that's not, burnout isn't helping you stay in a bad situation. Burnout's trying to help get you out of it. It's trying to help get you through it.

50:31And so for the people who are like, but I think I'm doing okay. Like, I think I'm, you know what, I'm surviving. Like, burnout's trying to get you to someplace better. And so allowing ourselves to move through things instead of just staying stuck in places that we shouldn't be. Yeah. Okay. Let's say somebody listening is like, I absolutely can't do this for whatever reason they come up with. I just, I can't do this. Now, I think the first thing we would both say is like, you might be able to, even if you're telling yourself you can't. So actually explore that. But are there like ways we can live our lives or steps we can take to feel like, is it mini retirement light?

51:16You know, like what ways can we experience what a mini retirement has to offer, even if we can't take one? When we come back from break, we're finishing up our conversation with Jillian, where she answers what mini retirement can look like for someone who thinks they truly cannot do it. See you soon.

51:36Being a small business owner, I think is the hardest thing. And it's only getting harder every single day. The costs keep increasing. Everything just feels so stressful right now. And this is why NetSuite is an incredible tool for small business owners. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, CRM into one single source of truth. And it's trusted by over 43 ,000 customers. And NetSuite Next is the next huge leap in how business gets done. It automatically surfaces custom insights throughout your day. It works alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work.

52:10And if you have a question, you can just ask and it'll help come up with the answer for you. NetSuite is customized for a variety of industries. So it supports the way that your business truly works. And it's one of those things I'm so excited to continue investing in as we grow HFK and as we continue solving new problems in our business. For the first time ever, you can try NetSuite Next for free. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to netsuite.ai.ffpod. Built for every industry, ready for every boardroom, netsuite.ai.ffpod. I did the classic thing this summer where I realized I have nothing to wear.

52:50I'm like, oh my gosh, everything either doesn't fit anymore because I've had it for like 10 years, or I just don't have the things that are going to actually keep me feeling cool and fashionable throughout summer. And of course, I went to quince.com slash ffpod because I bought, oh my gosh, the cutest shoes on Quince. They're really, really comfortable. They're sandals. I realized basically that I had a pair of sandals, but they were like the ugly hiking sandals. And I was trying to pair them with cute dresses and they looked bad. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to Quince. And they had so many amazing options.

53:22Quince specializes in effortless, high quality essentials. If you're trying to go anywhere this summer, you got to go to Quince because everything is so cute and it's also so timeless. So you're going to ultimately save money by buying stuff at Quince because it's 50 to 80 % less than similar brands. But you're also not going to have to replace it all the time because it's so beautiful. upgrade your everyday download the quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash ffpod get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in canada and the uk too that's q u i n c e.com slash ffpod

54:05I think there's a lot of benefits to practicing, to practicing whatever the thing is that that intention that you want for your mini retirement, even if you can't imagine how this is going to transpire. Like I said, maybe I think that I think it's an Elizabeth Gilbert quote. She said, sometimes when things are really bad, the prayer I always say is, Lord, please make this much, much worse. Is that a Liz Gilbert quote? I feel like I know all the Liz Gilbert quotes. That's so good. I'm literally going to Google it. Because sometimes until something gets much, much worse, we won't act. We won't move.

54:50We won't get out of it. We'll stay stuck. and so if things are really bad and you can't imagine a mini retirement things might get a whole lot worse and then a mini retirement opens up so I think starting to practice that because you never know so if if you want more adventure like starting to adventure more you know if you're like I want to do I want to travel with my kids one of the great ways to practice that is to leave your house at like eight in the morning with your children and don't come home until 7 p.m. Figure it out. Figure out where you're going, how you keep everyone happy, how you keep everyone fed, how everyone gets their naps, like how do you survive just in your community out doing fun things for a whole day?

55:39Because then when that opportunity opens up, either because you get laid off or you switch jobs or your mom gets cancer and you need to take life like FMLA, like whatever that is, you'll have started moving in that direction and you're more ready to pivot into that, that thing that you really want to do and need to do. My final question for you, what is one thing that somebody can do? What's one step that they can take to get closer to that mini retirement? it. I would start by imagining what it is you want to do. What are those dreams? Because you need to have, you have to start with the motivation.

56:23You have to start with the vision. Before you start with all the questions and all the logistics, like, is there a carrot? Because all of this stuff, I think in the book, I tried to do a really good job of like every concern, every fear. Here's the step-by-step. Here's exactly how you take care of this. and I think that it's very easy and doable and it's a pain in the butt it's a hassle it's so much easier to just not change anything yeah keep going with your life yeah so starting with that vision of what would fit into this season of life what do you feel like if we don't do this in the next five years it's just gonna pass us by yeah what's the thing that is important and urgent right now?

57:06What's the things that's not fitting into nights and weekends? And start to just journal about that, vision board about it, talk to your friends about it, however you process that, because that's going to give you that motivation and clarity of, so what are the logistical steps that I need to do to get closer to that? I would also encourage people, anybody listening who's thinking about the cost of this, both, you know, financially, your career, like, oh my gosh, what, how much time, the stress, the talking to my boss, like the cost of that, the cost of you not doing it is going to be way worse.

57:45Like the cost of you not taking a break, the cost of you not doing, uh, hiking Machu Picchu while you're young and healthy versus waiting until you're 65, like the cost of not thinking about this or planning it or trying at the very least, that's much worse. That's a way bigger price to pay than the logistics and the potential lack of earning for that month, right? Like that's not the cost. The cost is you not doing this. And the reality is before you do it, the risk and the hassle feels enormous. and the benefit feels like modest. You know, every time we used to do really big road trips every winter and leaving our house with all five kids for, you know, three to eight months is like such a pain in the butt.

58:41And the two weeks before, I'm like, oh, dear God, what have I done? Like, this is so much work and I'm so stressed. And it feels so big. But the reality is with these mini-retirements, in the rearview mirror, after the fact, five years later, 20 years later, 40 years later, when you look back, the further you get from it, the hassle you kind of forget. It gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And the meaningfulness, the joy, the value it brought to your life, it expands. The further you get from it, the bigger those things feel. Like that 10-week trip to those 10 national parks oh god I look back now my kids were so itsy bitsy they were so little and adorable and like they just loved being with us so much and it was like and now like I mean I still love my kids but they're like junior high and high school and like it's a whole different vibe now yeah and the meaningfulness that that feels is honestly like 10 or 100 times more intense than when I was even living it.

59:45Because when I was living it, like it was snacks and diapers and strollers and making sure everyone had their coats. And like, but now I look back and I'm just like, oh God, I'm so glad we did that. Like I will cherish that forever. Yeah. Oh, you're making me a little teary. Yeah. And I think that's the feeling we want for everybody listening is both, you know, a great experience in the moment or at least, you know, you're learning something new. Maybe it's challenging, but it's a new experience and that you can look back and be like, wow, I'm really glad I did that as opposed to making somebody, my stupid boss, richer.

1:00:23I'm really, really glad I did that. Okay. Thank you so much. This has been so helpful. I'm so excited to watch everybody listening take their own retirement and hear what that is, their own mini retirement. Where can people find out more about you and your book? Yeah, retireoften.com. you can find the book coaching I've got a newsletter it's super unhinged so like if you like that sort of thing I don't know what's it about I don't know when do we send it who no idea it's a surprise to all of us we're all surprised together and on social media I'm at Jillian Johnsrud amazing thank you thank you so much to Jillian for joining us you can get her book retire often which has every single strategy we've talked about in even more detail and I'm so excited to read it.

1:01:10I got a copy coming to my house right now. Thank you as always for being here, Financial Feminist. Thank you for supporting feminist media. And if you aren't already watching on YouTube, we release all of these episodes in video format over on our YouTube channel. We would love to see you there. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being Financial Feminist and we'll see you back here soon. Bye. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.

1:01:41If you're confused about your personal finances and you're wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com slash quiz for a free personalized money plan. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Shortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda LeFue. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K. Kaylin Sprinkle, Masha Bakmikyeva, Sasha Bonar, Ray Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Megan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound.

1:02:21A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show.

1:02:34I want to date with Roars, Carty says. Roars? Rucker asks. This is the love story of real hinge couple Carty and Rucker. Written and read by me, Nicola Dynan. Listen to the free audiobook now.

1:02:51Jillian Johnsrud:Class is now in session. And the UPS Store is here to help you ace arriving on campus. Our certified packing experts can pack everything you need. from desktops to decor. Plus, when you pack and ship with us, you get our exclusive pack and ship guarantee. Your items arrive safe or your money back. Restrictions and limitations apply. To get a 20 % off packing coupon and for full details, visit the upsstore.com slash packing.