289. You're Networking Wrong (What to Do Instead) with Danielle Robay

20:23Tiffany Aliche:What do high earning influential people do differently when they network? They don't act like they need anything or want anything. Even if they do? Yes. They're not attached to the outcome in the same way. Okay. And I can tell you this from personal experience that when I was younger and I had absolutely nothing, obviously I was in need. Like they could smell it on you. You can't deny it when you're 22 or when you're 18. Right. But no matter where you are at in your life, by the time you are 35, that eagerness, that need for something turns people off. So you have to find a way to psychologically turn that off before you enter the conversation and enter the room.

21:12And a really good way to do that is think about what can I give them? Yeah. What can I share with them? Yeah.

21:17Tiffany Aliche:Okay. So there's two things that somebody's thinking right now. Okay. Let's talk about the first one. Somebody hears that and goes, oh, but that's inauthentic because I do want something. Yeah. How do you manage that inauthenticity with also knowing like, yeah, networking is important. Yeah. Well, okay. Be in dialogue with me about this because I actually haven't thought about this. My first instinct is, is it actually transactional? Do you actually just need something from this person? Then it's not really networking. It's an ask. Right. You're not looking to build a relationship at that point.

21:52Yeah. I think that's the right answer. That's, and that from like the beginning, we talked about the long-term game. Yeah. That is a short-term game. Yeah. And that's okay. You're allowed to throw those out.

22:04Tiffany Aliche:But don't expect anything past that ask because that's a one and done. That's like you've shot your shot. Yeah. Like it's very hard to form a long-term relationship after that. I would agree with that. There's a story I love. I saw a general, a former general from the U.S. Army, Army government. I don't know. One of them. Speak. He was, he's worked with five presidents. Okay. Okay. So he's not, he's apolitical. so he somebody at the end of the talk raised their hand and said you tell me what each president taught you and I was like damn it I wish I what a good question like great question and so he goes down the line and he was like you know Trump x y and z and he was like nothing keep going yeah I mean I'm not gonna repeat it Obama he was like he was professorial like and I never knew where I with him.

22:57Like, I didn't know if he liked me or not. And I know that doesn't matter, but like, I never quite knew where I stood with him. And he always like really was taking in information and regurgitating it. Like he was a, he was a lecturer. He was a professor in a good way. Bush Jr. I forgot what he said about him. And it was Bush Sr. that stood out to me. He said, Bush Sr. would spend the last 15 minutes of his day calling a different world leader every single night. Okay. And he had no, he didn't need anything. He would call the president of, um, Tanzania one night and just kind of shoot the shit.

23:32Hey, how are you? How's it going? Whatever. Because as soon as he did need something, they had a shorthand. It was so easy to pick up the phone and be like, Hey, I, I, I know that I know you're busy. I know it's the middle of the night for you. Right. But can you do me X, Y, and Z favor? Smart. And so it's kind of like, like us, right? Like we met because of work and now we are friends and now we have a shorthand. You could call me at 2am and be like, I, my podcast guest dropped out. Can you hop in?

24:01Tiffany Aliche:Right. You know? So, um, I think that networking is playing the long game and thinking ahead. So what relationships are you forming right now that will help you in two, three, four years? Yeah. I think the other thing that high earners and like successful people do when they network. Yeah. And let's take, if I'm presumptuous enough to say, let's take you and I as an example. You and I's relationship. I don't know that I'm there yet, but you are. Stop. You and I, Gloria Steinem's fellow, bullshit. Okay. Don't give me that. You and I, I think have an understanding that there are times we're in friend mode and there are times we're in work mode.

24:38Tiffany Aliche:Yes. And if I ask you for a work favor or vice versa, that does not impact the friendship. Just like we can, you know, have very vulnerable conversations about our relationships or about our families or whatever's going on over here. And they're not going to mess with what's going on over here. And I think that is something people don't understand is it's like, once you have a relationship with somebody, and again, you don't have to be the closest friends, but you understand, oh, this is a work ask and it's not going to affect the way I feel about this person as a friend and vice versa. What do you mean?

25:10Tiffany Aliche:How would it affect a friend? I think people who have not networked before or are trying to get better at it think like, again, the authenticity question. Well, how can I build an authentic relationship with this person if I know that I need something or if I know they need something from me? There will come a time where I need something from you or vice versa. And also, we have a good enough rapport where we want to help each other. Yes. It does not feel transactional because it is like, no, I want Danielle to succeed. Yeah. Okay. I get what you're saying now. Danielle wants me to succeed. Yeah.

25:46Tiffany Aliche:And that only makes our relationship stronger, but also doesn't damage that part because it is kind of a separation of church and state. It's like, there's going to be times where we're just having a friendship conversation. And then there's going to be times where it is like very work. Yes. Both of those things can coexist at the same time. But we have built up the conversational capital. Absolutely. To do that. Absolutely. And that's, I think what I'm saying is most people, again, view networking as, yeah, this tit for tat, one for one. And so, of course, it's going to feel inauthentic when you do that.

26:19Tiffany Aliche:Because it is. Then it's just transactional. And I love Bush Sr.'s example of, again, that world leader knows he's going to need something from me at some point. I might need something from him at some point. But also, we are going to have a separate relationship that is like, how's the wife? How's the kids? What's going on? Yeah. And that can coexist at the same time. I would argue it makes the work relationship stronger. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't feel like so much of an ask because you've already built that relationship over here. Yeah, exactly. And that is the way that you teach women to invest money today so that it 10Xs in 10 years.

26:59Yeah. It's the exact same thing with relationship building. Like relationships take time to grow. you continue to invest in them. Like it's honestly no different.

27:08Tiffany Aliche:Yeah. So the first thing somebody's thinking is like, how do I do this without being inauthentic? I think we've answered that. The second thing somebody's thinking is I don't have anything to offer though. Yeah. I'm reaching out to somebody who's really successful. I don't know. I'm trying to email Mark Cuban. What am I going to offer Mark Cuban? Yeah. So what do you say to that person who's trying to figure out how do I network in a way that is giving when I'm 19 or I am in between jobs? Like how do I actually provide value? Okay. I love this question and I'm going to give you a two-part answer.

27:40The first is when I started a podcast, I had an acquaintance that I was at dinner with and she was like, I'm dying to start a podcast. I'm going to email Joe Rogan and I want his tips. And I looked at her and I said, what? And she was like, yeah, I mean, he's like, he's great at it i go yeah you need to email somebody who is way closer to your point like your vantage point i'm not against an outrageous ask like i i'm not saying don't go for the the big the don't go for the gold but emailing mark cuban out of the blue when you have nothing to offer like it's that's not going to change your life probably the most the thing that will happen is you might you might get lucky and catch him on an off moment which by the way i've heard he

28:26Tiffany Aliche:responds to like every email. I told him and he did respond crazy, but I had something to offer him at the moment. What did you want? What did you offer him? I invited him to a talking circle at Gloria Steinem on masculinity. That's so great. But I waited to email him until I had something that I thought was at least somewhat valuable to him to offer. So the most you'll get is an email back being like, sorry, can't help. Have a great day. That's not going to do anything for you. wait for that big ask till you do have something to offer. I just have to pause you there. Yeah. That is such good advice.

29:00Tiffany Aliche:And I will say to the listener, I still do this. I think it's very easy to watch me and be like, oh, she can't. No, like there are certain people that I wait where I'm like, I can't phone this ask in too early because one, we have not built the relationship capital and it's going to feel way too needy and gross. And also two, I know I'm going to need this thing later. So it's too early to ask for that right now. Yes. Yeah. There is a great story. I forgot the guy's name and he was, he had just moved to New York. He didn't know a single person. And within a year he had interviews at every top tech company, Google, uh, at the time, Twitter, Microsoft, which those are notoriously difficult to get.

29:43And what he did was so smart and so simple. He emailed one person in the group he was looking for, said real quickly, what's the biggest pain point for you right now? And then emailed them back with a solution. He got an interview at every single one of those companies. You really do have something to offer. You just don't know what it is. Can you imagine what if somebody, I don't know, a 30-year-old looking for a job emailed you and was like, Hey, Tori, I know you're busy. Quick question. What is your biggest pain point right now? I'm asking because I think I have a solution to offer. Yeah. You might take a few minutes to offer it.

30:21And then whether that solution either fit your business or not, you're like, this is a person who freaking cares. And you're probably willing to have a conversation. And they're asking the right questions. Yes. Yeah. The second point is you often actually have something to offer you don't realize. So by asking what is the pain point or by taking 20 minutes to read about the person and think about their life and what makes them tick. and I mean everyone has Instagrams now right yes like take a look and you can probably get something that you have um whether it's social media advice or uh you know somebody who does marketing for x y and z like I think just the offer yeah actually matters yeah a lot of times

31:04Tiffany Aliche:people won't even take you up on it yeah yeah I think that's so smart and again it's all about building relationships. It's not just the one and done. It's not just the transaction. Yes. And then it's the follow-up, which we can talk about at some point. Yeah, let's talk about the follow-up. So what does that look like? The follow-up is really important because I actually think a lot of times people go out of their way to network, to relationship build. They'll go to an event or they'll meet somebody. And then that's where the buck stops. And the follow-up is actually the complete follow through.

31:36That is what matters. And so that is when I say you get very specific. This is the moment to quote them, quote a moment from the conversation, say, when you said X, Y, and Z, I'm still thinking about it. That made me laugh or that lit me up or really gave me something to think about. I'm going to be thinking about that all week. And I know you mentioned wanting to learn how to water ski, take a look at this video I found or this article. This coach might be interesting for you. The relationship, you're there. You just did it. It's why you're laughing. It's the follow through.

32:14Tiffany Aliche:I'm laughing because you're so good at this and everything you're saying. I'm like, I've seen her do this. Really? Yes. I've seen, you've done this with me, especially in the early days. You do this with other people. Yeah. No, but it works. Okay, if you can't already tell, I'm completely obsessed with Robay and everything she does. I'm literally like sending her a voice note after this. She's one of my favorite people and is so kind and curious. And she is the epitome of somebody who sets goals and actually does the work to get there. And even better, she then turns around and shares it with other women.

32:45Tiffany Aliche:And to be more like Danielle, you really have to get crystal clear about what you actually want and how you plan to get there. Because, take a shot if you've heard this before, a goal without a plan is just a wish. So I have a free download that helps you take your dream from hope to action. This goal-setting worksheet is going to take you through our favorite goal-setting method that will help you set actionable goals for the year ahead. And it's something you can use multiple times. And it's the exact framework I use to achieve my goals like my first 100K, getting a book deal, even launching this podcast.

33:16Tiffany Aliche:Head over to herfirst100k.com slash ffpod to get it for free. And when you're done, send us a voicemail and let us know what goals you accomplished. We might even play it on the show. HerFirstHunderKate.com slash FFPod. Okay, back to Danielle. So here's the thing. I actually, the only reason I'm here talking to you about this is because I have a friend named Tehran. He's a comedian. And we met in the funniest of ways. We were on a trip in Ethiopia together. And it's like not often that you meet new friends at an older age, right? So they see you differently. And he looked at me and he said, just because you're good at connecting with people doesn't mean it's not a skill.

33:56And I was like, whoa. And I started thinking about some of the things that I do instinctually and trying to break them down backwards. So what you're hearing from me is not like a really calculated strategic scheme. It's more like, here's really what's worked for me. And I'm trying to break it down in a practical way. Totally.

34:16Tiffany Aliche:No, it works. And it's so smart. where do you see women networking in ways that make them liked but not paid i mean women oftentimes offer up free labor and their time more often than men something i'm thinking about a lot because one of our gifts is that we gather and it's how we share information it's how we get a leg up and we gather differently than men oftentimes so like they'll and not to say I each can't do the other, but like men will be on the golf course and women will be at lunch or something. Men are shoulder to shoulder, women are face to face. Exactly. But I think, you know, that masculinity circle I threw, I invited a lot of men and mostly women said yes.

35:05And I thought to myself, I wonder if it's because men don't want to take two hours out of their work day, whereas women are willing. I don't know.

35:13Tiffany Aliche:but it's also an uncomfortable conversation to have I'm sure men are not comfortable talking about their masculinity yeah unfortunately but yeah I think offering up too much time I used to try and add too much value there was a founder that I interviewed and I really liked her and I was like wanting to pick her brain so to speak so I knew I had to offer something and I basically did like an audit of her business and sent through like a three-page document of all the things. And it's a lot. It's like, it was too much. You don't need to do all that. Yeah. It's kind of like dating where it's like, that's too much.

35:47Like she was probably like, okay,

35:49Tiffany Aliche:send me some flowers. Fine. Send me like a room full of flowers. Oh, after a first date. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do you shift from being perceived as helpful or interesting to being seen as valuable? I think that depends on having a real expertise. And so that may only come with time. yeah um and that's okay i think that's part of like life's journey and your career journey yeah but once once people see you having plugged into something and it's working yeah they want a piece of it and i think it's also the transition from more i don't know i was gonna say like willy-nilly networking or just like not very intentional of just like oh that person was interesting that person was helpful versus like oh this person's valuable.

36:35So, okay. Question for you about this. Yeah. Because you have gone on book tour and I've heard authors say, be of two minds. The first says, I think of this as a political campaign. It's a numbers game. I'll do any podcast. And the other says, I'm only going to do the most impactful podcast or what I perceive to be the most impactful. And I'm asking you this question because I actually think it's a networking question. Is it a numbers game for you or is it

37:00Tiffany Aliche:an impact book tour is such a different beast and i think i actually have a different answer for that than i give to like the general public okay when the first book came out i was much more in the like do whatever podcast camp now i think that one i'm better known but also two i've realized how valuable my time is during that period yeah i have to be more strategic because time is the only finite resource right and especially during like a book launch campaign you have a finite amount of time. Yeah. And I also think strategically about like podcasts versus other media. Podcasts or like a written interview or even a video interview that's going to go out later.

37:41Yeah.

37:41Tiffany Aliche:All of those things can happen before the book comes out. But like a Good Morning America or whatever, those are all happening the week of your book launch. And that's a very finite amount of time. So you want to like do as much as you can before the book comes out and hope it releases during that week. so like that's it's like a very specific thing that you have to like tetrish your way into but i do think if you are i don't know it's kind of like a combo because you shouldn't this is what i see with people in like applying for jobs and this is not going to be advice that somebody has never heard before if you're just applying for whatever job and doing like the quick apply on linkedin like it's not going to work if you're just applying for a bunch of jobs like one they can see through that.

38:25Tiffany Aliche:They can see that you don't really care. And two, I think it burns you out quicker because you're not pursuing something that actually feels worthwhile. And you're not seeing any return. And you're not inspired to continue. So that intentionality does have to be there, but also you do have to get your numbers up at the same time. Like just sending one email a week or even one email a month and expecting your entire life to change. It's not going to work that way? Well, I have friends who go to parties and say like, I'm networking, like they're going to a day party and they're like, I'm networking.

38:56And, um, I don't consider that networking. I think there's a real fine line. I'm like, you're socializing and that's okay if that's what you want to do. But I think networking is a lot more intentional. Um, I don't think most of us are running a political campaign. Like we don't need to be in every room. We don't need to be in everybody's inbox. I would say be like really strategic and intentional with your time.

39:22Tiffany Aliche:Yeah. I would agree with that. You have spent thousands of hours in conversation. Yeah. Some turned into jobs, some turned into long-term collaboration, some into nothing. Yes. What separates a conversation that leads to money or leads to progressing in your career or in your business or in your goals versus one that just feels good? that's the intangible that's the magic tell me more um i don't go into a conversation expecting any roi i go in wanting presence i go in hoping to hear a great story i think everyone can teach me something if it turns into something else it was meant to and if it doesn't we leave it right there and we had a great moment and I'm grateful for that I don't think you can solve for that I would agree with that I love what you said before of like if you like I think having systems is important but if you're systematizing this it takes the humanity out of it then you're just a robot well and people can that they can feel you right totally like you're better off yeah I also I think you're hitting on something though like um you can kind of avoid the professional when your networking.

40:39You don't have to ask all, I mean, corporate is different.

40:42Tiffany Aliche:Yeah. You're not in a pencil skirt and a briefcase. Like, yeah. Yeah. How, like how old are your kids? And I always ask people when, when it feels right. I'm like, if you were to give a Ted talk in 10 minutes, what would you give it on? Cause like you learn something about them, what their expertise is. It turns into a larger conversation. They remember the question. Like you can have fun with it. And there's drinks coming around on a tray. You can be like, oh, do you like sugary or salty? Yeah. Are you a sweet or salty person? Yeah. Or when was the first time you had a martini? Hilarious. I had one of these on my 18th birthday.

41:21What'd you do for your 18th birthday? How'd you celebrate? Yeah.

41:24Tiffany Aliche:By the way, Timothee Chalamet red carpet looks. That is my answer to you. My TED talk, I could give that any prep. What is a common networking habit women have to stop immediately if they want to earn more money. Ooh, wait, say that again. I love this question. What's a common networking habit women have to stop immediately if they want to earn more money. Stop being transactional. Yeah. Yeah. And that goes for every human being. Yeah. It is the death. Being transactional is the death of networking. Absolutely.

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44:13Tiffany Aliche:Can we do some role play? Yeah. I don't mean the kinky kind. Okay. We always end up going there on your podcast. Always. Okay. So we're going to walk you through different networking situations. Yes. And we're going to talk about how you follow up. Oh, I love this. Okay. So you met somebody at a networking event. How am I following up? Okay. What kind of conversation did we have? Let's say we both work in marketing and let's say they work at a company that I've always been interested in working at. Okay. That's helpful. So I do want something, right? I want to learn more about the company. This is when you use the template, which is share, ask, offer, connect, invite.

44:53Okay. So share something. Yesterday when we met, like I've been laughing about what you said about Timothy Chalamet since I got home. Okay. Share. Then we asked, I felt so connected to you. I was wondering if you want to do coffee sometime. I can imagine your schedule is tight. So happy to, you know, make myself available at your convenience. And if you feel like that's too eager, you can say like, I'm free Mondays and Wednesdays, feel free to pick a day. Then you have an offer. So you follow up with what you can do. Depending on what that is, you can say, I work at X, Y, and Z company right now.

45:29And I actually think there may be a way for you guys to plug into this activation we're doing. And then invite. I think those are sort of interchangeable. You don't have to do both. If you have something to invite them to if it's like a bespoke experience or something exclusive I think that's always fun it's always a good way to get someone like because like this person may not want to meet you but they may want to go to a Bon Jovi concert and so you're like I have tickets like you know and then we're on a prayer baby let's do it you end up winning them over yeah no it's great yeah okay after

46:03Tiffany Aliche:somebody else makes a connection oh so somebody wants to meet Danielle yes I know Danielle I have put the three of us on a thread together and I go, I don't know, Angela, take it from here. What does Angela say to you? Okay. So this actually depends on how you met, like who, I think this really matters who connected you and how they connected you. First of all, if you connected me and Angela, did you ask me ahead of time and say, like, did you make it like a sweet landing for Angela. If you cold email us, then I'm going to probably not be as warm to Angela. Right. So it's a different email. And are you connecting us because Angela needs something from me or because we, you feel like this might be a mutually beneficial thing.

46:50Yeah. Either way, I think the right way to go about it is to be overly kind and get really specific. So if I'm Angela, I've taken 20, maybe 10 minutes to look over your Instagram, to look over my Instagram, to look over my work and say, hi, Danielle, moving Tori to BCC to not crowd her inbox.

47:11Tiffany Aliche:Moving Tori to BCC to not crowd her inbox. Yes. Show that you know email etiquette and you don't want to annoy Tori. Then you say something specific about me, address me and butter me up. Yep. Right. Yep. Say you watched a specific podcast episode or you just saw something I posted. Yep. and then specifically state why you want to speak. Do not leave it open-ended. This is actually the time where if you're going to be, quote-unquote, transactional, so to speak, like by stating it, you're actually going, you're getting yourself a lot further. People want to know what conversation they're getting into.

47:45Yeah.

47:45Tiffany Aliche:My last one, after a job interview. Oh, how bad do you want the job? Bad. If you want the job bad, you need to do something that is far beyond an email. Okay, tell me more. send the email just so that it's in writing, send the email, send the thank you. Then I would go out of your way to send either the hiring manager or the person you spoke to something that you feel like plays to something they spoke about. If their kid loves baseball, if they mentioned that they love cookies, and if you don't know what to send, send a bamboo plant. It is universally likable. It lasts, but send something with a handwritten note, whether that's you or the flower company writing it, but you need to do something to stand out.

48:33And I think this could go like, honestly, you can take this as far as you want to take it. You could do an entire project, make it look like a magazine, like pretend you're in college again and like get creative. Yep.

48:45Tiffany Aliche:My thing that I think is always helpful is asking the interview, what are your pain points or like what is your biggest what is the biggest struggle you're having that someone in this role would help solve yes and then give that's the best question to ask 30-day roadmap of the 30-day thing like your roadmap that you do in the first 30 days to solve that problem i mean you just won't up to me yes because if you can show me that you are going to free up my time make me money and make my life easier done yeah that's even even better one how can women start getting invited into rooms where decisions and dollars are actually being made i think part of it is having like other women in those rooms helps that's gonna be my answer like you gotta pull each other up yep you gotta make friends with other people that you want to be around and i think the biggest thing unfortunately that we are nervous about as women is being the tall poppy in our friend group like we're worried about sometimes being the person that either outgrows relationships if you want to go that far or it's just like, yeah, like asking for too much.

49:54Tiffany Aliche:And it's, I think about this all the time. I'm like, who do I want to know where I can help them get to the next level and they can help me to get to the next level? Well, also people in that position are also wanting to get to the next level. And so they're usually wanting to build with you. And then it doesn't feel transactional because you both know what you're wanting. I think that's kind of what I meant when I was trying to talk about like you and I, is it's like, we are both ambitious and we both know and acknowledge that in each other. And neither of us is going to feel ashamed or judged for asking that of each other.

50:28I feel like we're in a sorority, right? Like me, you, a few other podcasters, like we're all trying to help each other. Totally. Yeah. I think find your sorority. And I would say, think about who, who you want to be at a dinner table with and reach out to those people because who you want to eat dinner with and spend time with is like a really good indication of the field you want to be in.

50:51Tiffany Aliche:So for the woman listening who wants to earn more, not by grinding harder, but by feeling more connected. Yes. What is the most important networking shift she could make this year to build real wealth? So this is actually, uh, I think it might surprise you. I think she should throw an event. And it can be as small as she wants. It can be a six-person dinner. I have learned in life that if you want a friend, you have to be a friend. Yeah, you want the village, you got to be a villager. I would actually say, instead of the villager, who's the head of the village? The mayor. Sure. You think you want to be invited to something?

51:32Yeah. Be the inviter.

51:33Tiffany Aliche:Yeah. And truly your network will grow around you. Those people will talk about how they went to dinner, you know, and then somebody else will be like, I want to be at that dinner next time. Maybe it'll be a monthly thing. Maybe you guys start doing business together. And then this person knows somebody. I think that is really how it grows. Like you are the person in the room, make the decisions. Like you be the one to invite. I love that. And I think asking and offering as well. Like I am in a relationship with a lot of women where you end a conversation being like, what can I do for you? Or what do you need for me?

52:08Tiffany Aliche:Yes. Like, and then hopefully they asked me the question back. It's like the ask and offer is like so powerful. Well, and actually you hit on something to be the initial person to say, how can I help you? Yeah, what do you need? People almost feel like they, even if they don't want to, they have to ask you in return. Totally, totally. No, it's great. That's a great hack. You're so good at this. Danielle, somehow we got through this interview without me crying laughing, which honestly feels like a momentous occasion. And I'm also kind of bummed because I was looking forward to crying all my makeup off.

52:36I was going to say, it feels like a fail for us.

52:38Tiffany Aliche:No, it was perfect. It's great. Plug away my friends. Where can people learn about the card game, more about you, everything you got going on? Thank you. Everything is at danielerobay.com. But truly what would make me the most happy is if you do one thing in your life this week to expand your reach. So send an email, text a friend, And I love sending people books. I'll be like, this book made me think about you. Like do one thing to expand your reach. I love that. Thank you for being here. Thanks. You're the best. Yay. That's a wrap. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, produced by Her First 100K.

53:17Tiffany Aliche:If you love the show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you're looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to herfirst100k.com slash sspod.