292. How American Patriarchy Keeps Women From Their Money, Power, and History with Anna Malaika Tubbs

23:37Tiffany Aliche:United States. Right? So then you look at that and you think, oh, wow. Okay. No, of course, I kind of knew that logically, but to really think about how young the United States is, 250 years. And in addition to that, you then see that we're actually having a lot of conversations that are in many ways more advanced than a lot of other nations, specifically around social justice, the rights of people of color. When you think of a group of people who were enslaved in this nation and then not too far later, there is a president of the United States who is black. That's actually really, it's not fast enough.

24:20I'm not saying I'm content with it, but I am very proud of the work that has been done on this group that I was describing earlier who have said, hey, that's not enough and we need to fight for more. We have to really celebrate the gains that have been made despite indescribable barriers. And I think for me, it's also because I'm a historian and my first book was about these three incredible women who were all born in the early 1900s, the mothers of MLK Jr., Malcolm X, and James Baldwin. Their names are Alberta King, Louise Little, and Burtis Baldwin. But they're all born in the early 1900s. They experienced Jim Crow.

25:04They see lynchings. They are rampant at the time. They experienced two world wars. They have their children during the Great Depression. And they are activists in their own right. All three of them did what their sons later became famous for before their sons were even born. And they are resisting, constantly resisting. Their children follow in their footsteps and lead alongside their peers, one of the most famous, if not the most famous civil rights movement in world history. So the mothers experience voting for the first time. They live long enough to see the first episodes of the Oprah Winfrey show.

25:45They live long enough to overlap with Barack Obama when he's an Illinois state senator. And I say this often, but it is so important to really consider that Burtis Baldwin, on one end of her life, she overlapped with Harriet Tubman. And on the other end of her life, she overlapped with me. This is very recent history. And it's not been because those who were in power and those who loved the original social order just woke up one day and decided that they were going to share rights with people. It wasn't that they were like, oh, I just had a really cute idea or now I've been exposed. Now I know better.

26:26It's because those who were left out of the protections of that original social order pushed for this, fought for this, led for this, fought every single day of their lives to make sure that I could be here, you know, sitting on a podcast, talking about taking my kid to a swim lesson. So for me, it's really difficult to sit in the space of, oh, change is so hard and change takes too long because I'm a black woman. And the law in this country said that my children were not my children, but we're somebody else's property. And the reason that Black women have had so much power is because when a law is so insane and it treats you in such an insane way, you don't sit there and say, well, if the law says so, it must be true.

27:20Instead, you exist in the realm of that's entirely made up. So I'm always aware that what these men created is made up. meaning we all are capable of making something else up every single day of our lives and that's for me really hopeful and really empowering and it doesn't minimize the pain of what they they cause but at the same time we all really do have power despite this desire to make us think that

27:50Tiffany Aliche:we don't you know i said her first 100k yes we talk about money but we mostly talk about feminist issues and how patriarchy shapes the way we think, feel, and move throughout society. And one of the things that we've always talked about here at Her First 100K is how having money means having options and how getting money, even just a little bit of money, allows you flexibility to make your own decisions about your life and put your own oxygen mask on first so that you can actually show up and fight for the change that's so necessary. If you go to herfirst100k.com slash FFpod. You can take our six-step, six-question quiz.

28:26Tiffany Aliche:We're going to ask you some questions about your financial life, whether you have debt or not, whether you have savings. We're getting a gauge to determine where you're at so we can deliver you a free customized financial plan for your next financial step. Go to herfirsthunderk.com slash FFpod to get your free customized plan. All right, back to the episode. I'm realizing you're the perfect person to talk about something that I've been talking about in private spaces for about a year. Okay, so from your perspective as a historian, I listened to an incredible interview that Sarah McBride gave on the Ezra Klein show probably about a year ago.

29:01Tiffany Aliche:Sarah McBride is the first openly trans congressperson, and she just gave this such thoughtful interview, and I'm going to butcher it. Please go listen to it, everybody listening, because basically what she says is, the thing, all of the things we want, right, especially in the LGBTQ community around, you know, not just safety for trans people, but, you know, trans identity and trans celebration and support of trans people in sports and all of the things that encompass what we need to do to make the queer community feel safe. She likened it back to the civil rights movement. And she's like, it took multiple years of bus boycotts to just get a little bit of change, yet alone to have a Black man be president and all of the rest of it.

29:49Tiffany Aliche:And of course, still more change to come. But she goes, well, we of course believe that everything should happen at once, that we should be able to have all of these things happen at once. That is not how progressive change happens. And I think it's something that anybody in a liberal space needs to hear because we end up kitchen-sinking everything. We're like, but everything matters and we shouldn't have, of course, anybody in the queer community or the Black community or the Indigenous community or women that feel unsafe. So we need all of it right now, not realizing that throughout history, change didn't work like that.

30:28Tiffany Aliche:It worked over decades, if not centuries, if not multi-centuries. So can you shed a light on that as a historian, especially in this moment in 2026, where we're all fighting for these different things and we're actively feeling them getting clawed back and demanding that these things happen immediately. But also, history does not prove that that's how it works, even if that is unfair. Yeah. Oh, these are such good questions. I have so much to say about this because part of me, first, I want to acknowledge that too often we have left people behind in order to achieve something. And I don't think that's the path forward either.

31:11You know, it's like, no, the women's suffragette movement,

31:13Tiffany Aliche:the suffragist movement is the perfect example of this. We fight for the white women to vote and the black women come later. Exactly. Exactly. So I don't want to endorse that notion of like in order for us to gain a little bit, we're going to have to sacrifice some people along the way by any means. I think it's really important that we not do that actually. And I think Black women, again, are a perfect example of this. The civil rights movement is a perfect example of this because the civil rights movement wasn't only about Black people. It opens the door to so many more freedoms for so many groups.

31:45And that actually is where we do need to, as activists and as change makers and people who care, we do have to be more of the mindset of we don't have to cut out any parts of our identity, but that we need to think of ourselves more in this large group that I keep describing, which is we're pushing for actual democracy. We're pushing for all of us to be treated as human beings. But by saying that, It also reminds us not one person can change all these things by any means. So it's less about the order, I think, that we need to go in and more so we all need to get on the same team and do our individual parts to create this larger system where we actually get to experience what it is for each of us to be treated with dignity and with respect.

32:38So that means that my fight as a Black woman who tells the stories of Black women who have been erased and who keeps these histories alive so that we all remember how to resist because we've had to do it always, right? And none of this is new and we can't find ourselves exhausted and so comfortable in this system that we've now forgotten how to fight, right? That is the role that I play on this larger team. But that also, for me, it's really critical that I understand how the gender binary has been used as a tool of oppression. So I'm not going to be somebody who says, I can't really talk about trans issues right now because I'm really focused on Black women, because that actually would not be in alignment with Black feminist history.

33:27Black feminist history has always been all of us deserve to be treated as human beings, period. And as much as we can bring those fights together, the further we will go and the faster we will go, actually. It's just that sometimes people don't realize how all of our strategies are a part of the exact same fight. And what I was trying to really convey and erase is that we're all coming up against American patriarchy. It's not actually, oh, this is a fight against this and this is a fight against that. We are all coming up against a system that the founding fathers decided was going to rule all of our lives.

34:06and all of these other symptoms that are coming out of it are related to the exact same thing. So we can actually really focus and we can finally do something to dismantle it. And we can think even more radically about, for example, well, how do you make sure everybody has the right to vote? Maybe it's mandatory voting in the United States. What if every single group decided we want to know what everybody in this United States would vote for without any barriers. And my belief, because I'm a hopeful, optimistic person, is actually the majority of people in this country would vote for more inclusivity, would vote for resources to be shared.

34:50It's the reason that our votes are being targeted, right? So how do we as a team decide on our strategy while also making sure we're each individually bringing the expertise we have to this larger team.

35:04Tiffany Aliche:And that's a question I wanted to ask you that you just kind of answered for me. But in my work, I say patriarchy to cover a myriad of things. Yes. Any system that promotes inequality. So we're talking right supremacy, racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, like all of these things. Is the word patriarchy, does that sum it all up? Obviously, there's nuances of each of these is handling a different issue. But do all roads lead back to patriarchy? All drains lead to this ocean? I personally think so. And I think that based off of my studies on this, so personally, professionally, I do believe it all comes back to patriarchy.

35:44Because what I say and erased is that we were tricked into fighting for our rights to be gendered in the United States. But in order to be gendered here, it also means you have to be white. It also means you have to be elite. It also means you have to be all these other things, right? So exactly. So gender is not in the way that we think of it in terms of sex, right? This is when the socialization of gender and the creation of gender becomes really important in any given patriarchy. And that's the thing really that distinguishes patriarchies across the world. So, and the reason that patriarchy is so eminent across the world is because the distinction that most human beings make from each other is around the survival of humanity.

36:33It's around reproduction. And so that's why you'll see so many systems come back to, okay, who has the sperm and who has the eggs? This is like the question that we're asking. And there's a lot of different studies that try to pinpoint exactly when, you know, the very first patriarchy started, but most indigenous communities still saw this as an importance around balance, that every person in a given community had some role to play, that there wasn't a hierarchy, there wasn't somebody who was more important, there was balance. And it didn't mean that everybody had to reproduce and have children.

37:10There was a lot of respect for those who were the elders who were just leading in ways that didn't include them having kids, right? So there was just an acknowledgement of the unique roles we all played in community. So one of the things I later want to do is study all these moments on the kind of timeline of human history and then when patriarchy showed up. And it's no coincidence that that is in alignment with colonialism and conquering and how you then create a hierarchy out of something that used to have balance. How you then decide, oh, okay, if this female body is the one that carries the life, well, we're now going to tell them that a divine man came before them.

38:02You know, that is strategic.

38:04Tiffany Aliche:And also that you were birthed in sin. Exactly. And then you came from someone's rib, you know, it's like, this is all, it's all a part of the propaganda and it's traceable. It's very traceable because then you can go back and say, oh, wait, okay. So this colonial mentality actually doesn't serve us. and we can do something about that. Yeah. I believe it's in the afterword for this new book, but you wrote it three days after Trump won his reelection in 2024. And you said, quote, we have not arrived anywhere new. We just haven't moved very far from where we began. Yes. Yeah. First of all, bars.

38:47Tiffany Aliche:Second of all, I think that there is this feeling, I know there's this feeling because I have this, you know, even in my own life, just this like ongoing level of dread. And, you know, the five, six million women in our community, every time I talk to them, they're like, this is the end of the world. This is unprecedented. This has never happened before. And I want to honor that while also being like, no, like this has happened a million times before. We just haven't lived it. How can we think about both this moment potentially having unique aspects while also knowing that like we're not progressing very far?

39:33Tiffany Aliche:Like all of these things, history keeps repeating itself. Like talk to me about that juxtaposition. Yes, great question. I wanted to put that afterward in there because I worried that people were going to read it thinking that I had then written the book solely as a response to President Donald Trump. And the reality was I've been writing this book for three years. And so I was predicting actually that he was going to win reelection. I was kind of the, sadly, sort of the negative one in the house, even though I'm the optimist. I knew it as well. Candidly, I knew it as well because I was listening to so much and reading so much political content for like a year and a half leading up.

40:15Tiffany Aliche:And like, I worked with the DNC. I did everything I could. But like, it was very obvious to me that that he was winning. It felt very clear to me as well. And I think that it was a part of this tug of war that I described, you know, that there was we had made so many gains that there was going to be this response. And so that's, for me, why I was not surprised by President Trump's re-election. And also, though, this notion of everyone now saying this is the worst it's ever been. We've never been here before, like you said. For me, even in describing what I described already with the three mothers that I studied in my first book, that's a really ridiculous statement.

40:56Like, it's actually a crazy statement for people in 2026 to say this is the worst it's ever been. and we are so hopeless and we don't know what to do and should we all run away and it just feels so so full of privilege to be honest so full of like an ego and that we have and I'm not at all trying to minimize the pain of it I agree these moments are terrifying it's horrific to see what's happening with ice. It's horrific to see the attacks. It's horrific to constantly have to live.

41:35Tiffany Aliche:Yeah. All of those things are true. That is true. And at the same time, they are not new at all. So that's actually what my next book is about. That's what I'm writing. It's supposed to come out next year, but I'm getting deep into this question of this is new. And what do we do? Because the reality is if somebody feels that way, it's, you know, congratulations, You just had like a really lovely life so far. And like, you maybe don't have ancestors or grandparents who could tell you differently. And if that's the case, wow, like you've been doing well for like generations of your family. They have had privileges and protections because the first step I would always say is ask your grandparent, like just say that exact same sentence to your grandparent.

42:18This is the worst it's ever been. And I'm just really curious what the grandparent is going to respond to you with, because again, our nation is very young and this is very recent history. There are people alive who remember the assassination of MLK Jr. and Malcolm X and et cetera. Right. This is it's just not new. But the reason people feel that way, I'll come around to it. There's a book that I always recommend. It's by Steve Phillips and it's called How to Win the Civil War. And so those who felt that they did win the Civil War were like, yay, we're done. We did it. And those who lost are like, we lost the battle, but we're still fighting the war.

42:59and so that those strategies have continued right the strategies were it's always a long-term game and one of those strategies was to attack our understanding of American history so a part of that is to say oh we've always been a land of the free we've always included everybody because in doing that, you erase the people who had to fight for it. You erase how hard it was to get here, to get to a place where I can walk my three Black children into school with kids who are from various different backgrounds. If I walk around the world thinking, wow, so great that in the United States, I've always been able to do this.

43:46Well, then if I see something happen on the news, I'm like, oh goodness, it's just never been this bad before. And that would come directly as a result of book bans, changing the stories in history books to say Black people loved to serve their slave masters. They were fine. Thanksgiving was so fun. We loved it. Thanksgiving was great. You know, and that's when the storytellers become extremely important, right? Because this is what we're fighting because then, and it's all strategic so that people don't know what to do when they have to fight. And then they're just scrambling and they're so confused and they're so uneducated on this history of what we've been living in.

44:31So when I say we haven't progressed that far, it's not to deny all of the gains we've made. It's to say we are still in the same tug of war because progress in the United States has never been linear. This is also a misunderstanding of American history. We've never had it be the case that we get something right, a right is there and that it's going to be secured forever. And now we can move on to the next thing. That's never been how American history has operated. It has always, always, always been a tug of war and we are still in it. And it can't be that those who are on this side of progress suddenly are like, I just don't know.

45:15I just don't know anymore. I don't remember. I don't remember how to pull. I'm scared and I need to give up and I need to go somewhere else. It's actually great. We have many people who have been pulling on this rope for a very long time and now we're being called to do the same thing and thankful to those who worked on our behalf for us to have lived in so much more comfort than ever before. But how lucky are we that we've become so comfortable that we've forgotten what it is to be courageous?

45:48Tiffany Aliche:So you mentioned earlier that there was a tactic of moving land rights to the states as opposed to at a federal level. We are seeing very similar things in the Supreme Court, abortion being the perfect example where, oh, we're not gonna protect it at the federal level, we're gonna move it to the states. Is this a patriarchal tactic? Definitely. Okay. Cool. It is. If we go back to... Everything comes back to patriarchy in my book. Always. All trains lead to the OSHA. Yeah. If we go back to the Founding Fathers, and particularly, this was their attack against poor people. So we have to remember, they're trying to find ways to exclude as many people as possible.

46:27This is their tactic. It's, again, not hidden. They write it in letters. They debate it. They're like, actually, yeah, let's remove them too. it was to say that poor people might not have the right to vote if they didn't own the land. So land ownership becomes the signal for money, for wealth, right? And elitism. And so they leave it up to the states initially to decide state by state. If someone doesn't own land in your state, can they have a voice in your state? And so if we trace that back and we now move forward with it and see any time even the Supreme Court might be saying, oh, maybe that should just be left up to the states.

47:09It's because it's such a good thing. Yeah, they believe they would be they'll have more success with that strategy if they leave it up to conservative state leaders to make this decision rather than them having to do so. But I will also say that the Supreme Court has always been patriarchal. We've actually never seen an anti-patriarchal Supreme Court in the history of the United States. And by that, we're moving into our, right? Except in the Barbie movie. We're moving towards our more nuanced definition of patriarchy, right? So when I say that, I'm not just saying attacks against women. I'm saying protecting the original social order.

47:50And these Supreme Court justices, the majority of them call themselves what? originalists. So they believe that they're supposed to protect the vision that the founding fathers had of how the United States should be organized. So again, they're not hiding it, everybody. They're literally calling themselves originalists. And what do they mean by that? They're protecting the original social order. So we have to stop being surprised by any decision that they make that mirrors the original social order. We can be surprised when they make decisions that go against that social order. Those are the moments where I have a little bit of a pause and I'm thinking, oh, you know, why did they side differently on this?

48:39Usually there's some other strategy going on there, but we have to stop wasting our energy thinking that the Supreme Court is neutral, thinking that the Supreme Court cares about each of us equally. They do not. The majority of them want to protect what the original founding fathers believed was necessary for our nation.

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50:46Tiffany Aliche:The big question for me in my work constantly, I think about it every day, I think about it in the way that I lead our company and our vision for the work that we do, is that, of course, I'm trying to get women rich because I think that solves a lot of these problems. A frequent criticism from certain women and other activists, I think, to my work is, well, we cannot get rich in a system that doesn't benefit everybody. And I totally hear that. And I reckon with this all the time because I am of the belief that we cannot change the system if we're too tired and broke and depleted to actually do it.

51:37Tiffany Aliche:So while we work to change the system for everybody else, we have to focus on how do we put our own oxygen masks on first. And I know that everyone in our community, everyone listening to this right now, feels a similar level of individual consciousness of what they might need, but also a collective consciousness of, I'm still existing in the system that not only does not work for me, but doesn't work for other people either. yet we still have to pay rent and like we still have to exist how do you think about both of those knowing that there is no perfect answer under capitalism and under patriarchy yeah first i'll say i get this question the part about capitalism quite a lot that is it actually that we live in an oligarchy is that the problem like maybe patriarchy isn't the problem it's the money That's the problem.

52:33And to that, I say capitalism is a result of patriarchy. 100%. You know, it's how, again, another strategy for maintaining the social order is to make it so that women can't have credit cards and can't pay for things themselves. And so all of that.

52:50Tiffany Aliche:Can't leave abusive relationships because they don't have money. Exactly. It's all built into how do we maintain something that's made up. We make up something else. Money. Money is entirely made up. It's not like a real thing, right? But it becomes the thing that dictates our lives. And that's as a result of how do we really maintain this social order. So that's the first thing I will say. The second thing is we always have had to use various different strategies to create change. So if we look throughout movement history, you have those who say, we're going to burn this all down because this is not serving us.

53:27And they are very important. They are very important people. We need them. And you also have had people who have said, okay, I'm going to learn how this system kind of works so that I can shift it. And I'm going to be a part of this in a way so that I understand how it operates so that we can create something different. And so long as the people who are doing that remember what it is they're there to do, then it can be a very effective strategy. where we lose our way is folks thinking, okay, I am going to ascend this ladder that's made up. And actually, this is pretty nice for me. This is pretty comfortable.

54:09Tiffany Aliche:And I'm going to kick over the ladder so nobody can follow me. Yeah. And I don't really remember what I was fighting. I don't even, I don't know why we're even here. So actually everything's fine. And I also agree that I shouldn't be taxed, right? That's when we start to get a little bit like, wait a second, we've lost you completely. And I say that from the perspective of somebody who I've been in a lot of primarily white institutions, a lot of these, the ones that give you the credibility in this system. You know, I at Stanford, Cambridge, like all those things. But when I was in those spaces, I remembered the entire time.

54:47And even now when I get to speak, you know, on TV or certain stages, I am not there to assimilate to them. I am not there to just reproduce their way of thinking and being. I'm there so that certain barriers can be removed from people hearing my message. I'm there so that I can make sure I'm paving a way for other Black women coming after me. I am there to affect change within that system. And sometimes it's in really subtle ways. But for example, for a Black woman to get her PhD at Cambridge and to say, I will not be quoting Durkheim or Weber, but I instead will be quoting Bell Hooks and Audre Lorde.

55:34And this will now be in your database of dissertations, that is actually something that then shifts the Department of Sociology at Cambridge. It shifts what students they're now looking for and why. Like now, if you go to King's College at Cambridge, there's a banner of my face there as one of their most celebrated alumni. And I'm not saying that to be like, oh, look at what Ana's done. It's because I never forgot what I was there to do. I never thought, oh, actually, Anna, now that you're here, maybe just do what they do, right? So that strategy is only effective if you remember why you're there.

56:16And if you don't try to then separate yourself out or think that you are somehow better than the people who say, F it all, burn it all down, right? And it is about how do we survive while we're fighting this system? Because while it is entirely made up, it is the thing that decides whether or not we're eating or our children are eating. And so simultaneously, we can always start to create the new systems. And that's the last thing I want to say and what I want us to kind of take with us. We don't have to wait for these things to shift on a national level. And this is where, again, we can learn from the traditions of Black women, right?

56:59When all of these attacks are in place, Black women find strategies to push back and to still live with joy, to still live with the freedom they create for themselves, coming together, supporting each other, caring for each other's children, pooling resources together, having community solutions, the Black church being a space where Black people could be educated and could speak freely. We can always create those spaces. And so even if you're somebody who's saying, I'm burning it all down and I'm doing that work, or you're somebody who's saying, I am learning the way of this system so that I can completely take it apart and I can leave my stamp on this dismantling.

57:42At the same time, you can always say, and I'm not reproducing this and how I choose to live and how I choose to see myself or my neighbors or my community or how I'm going to vote. So all of those things are strategies that have to happen at the exact same time, actually. And that's what we've seen historically. That's how we've achieved anything.

58:07Tiffany Aliche:My last question for you. There's a woman listening right now who, of course, knows that this system she's been trying to succeed in was never designed for her. while also, of course, she's trying to figure out how does she do the best she can in that system. So what would you tell her about the power she already has that maybe nobody has told her before? Beautiful question. Because we are all so powerful. That is the conclusion of the book is don't let them erase your power. What they want most is for you to forget that you are full of power, no matter how hard they try to deny that in you. And it's a question that resonates deeply with me too.

58:51You know, how much can we even shift? And while we're trying to just survive and do our best for our children and thrive, I want to be able to live a good life. And I deserve that. You know, I really believe that what Alberta and Bertis and Louise were fighting for was not necessarily for all of us to have to keep struggling, but so that we could live freely and our children have access to the same opportunities as everybody else. And so it's a constant for me daily reflection of how I, while opening doors for my children, make sure that it's not just only for me. That is the biggest thing. So I think about it a lot, actually particularly around, it's going to seem a little random, but I'll come back to it, around birth in the United States.

59:46So I was very, you know, because I studied what I've studied, I was so aware of the history of trying to control birth in the United States and the attacks against midwifery and doulas and how actually my best chance of having a beautiful experience was to have a midwife of color. And I knew this because of the research around it. And so, but I could afford having a midwife. And so it's not that I just go then and have midwife and then I have a great experience. It's actually okay. So now my, my responsibility and role is to open the access to this to everybody. So it's not saying that if you care about making this world a better place, you can't enjoy anything until that happens.

1:00:32It's saying this is testament to why everybody deserves these opportunities, to why everybody deserves these things that are privileges when they shouldn't be. Surviving childbirth shouldn't be a privilege. It should be something that everybody has access and a right to. So I would just say in those moments to not feel like you've done something wrong by making sure you have access to the opportunities that you have access to. But to remember, so long as you're doing what you need to do to make this country something that allows all people to have the same things you do, then that's where the balance lies.

1:01:13And I think it's something that we all deserve. And we don't have to feel guilty about that so long as we're remembering to not just ascend the ladder for ourselves, but instead to be really taking it apart with every resource we have access to.

1:01:29Tiffany Aliche:Anna, this was so lovely. I feel like my favorite episodes are when I feel like I'm back in college. And I mean that in the best possible way where I'm taking notes and I'm asking questions and I'm learning so much. I would love to have you back for the next book you write, but tell us about this one and where people can find it. Thank you. Erased what American patriarchy has hidden from us. It just came out in paperback this week. So you can find it wherever books are sold. I of course want to always support the independent bookstores. So bookshop is a good place to go, but I am so grateful. Thank you so much, Tori.

1:02:03These were such good questions, like such an amazing interview.

1:02:06Tiffany Aliche:Thank you. Oh, good. Literally. We have a whole other interview that we could have done prepped and I, my poor team, I threw them all out the window, but those are the best questions. I'll be back. Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for your work. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminists, produced by Her First 100K. If you love this show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you're looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to herfirst100k.com slash sspod.

1:02:44Thank you.