293. How Transparent Should I Be About My Money? (Tori’s Interview on The Real Stuff with Lucie Fink)

21:54Tori Dunlap:We go to couple therapy normally, but we had a session when we were like, okay, we're going to sit down for two hours and do pros and cons. And it was very emotional because literally when he would feel sure, I wouldn't. And then I would feel sure. And then he wouldn't. And I think both of us were just like, okay, what if it goes poorly? And it means we break up. And I think we made a pact where we're like, okay, if this doesn't go well, this doesn't mean we're breaking up. It just means you're moving out. You're moving out and we're figuring out. But we've been living together, what is it, October?

22:24Tori Dunlap:It's like three or four months. And it's going well. It's going really well. I'm so happy for you. It's really fun. And the stuff that nobody talks about, I drafted a contract. We drafted a rental agreement. So he's paying you rent. He's paying me rent. And I am, I guess, his landlord, which he said that at one point. And I had a whole meltdown about it because I'm like, no, I'm your partner. And he's like, yeah, but you're my landlord. And I'm like, I guess, but like, don't lead with that. But like, it protects him and I like, I don't know, let's say I don't fix his bathroom or something like, yeah, just like any other thing.

22:57Tori Dunlap:It protects him if he needs to get out of the lease for whatever reason. If I decide, yep, it's not working. We have a 30 day mutual termination clause. We've all seen judge duty. Like we've seen people who don't have contracts. Like I think that that is one of the misconceptions that I try to debunk in my work. and I know you've talked about it before, but like that prenups aren't sexy or that like talking about money isn't sexy. And I'm like, actually, these are the things that bring you together when you get to be mutually vulnerable. And like, yeah, it was messy. There were some tears. There was some like back and forth, but there's gonna be no resentment.

23:33Tori Dunlap:There's going to be no conflict because we both know what we're getting into and we're both mutually protected. And especially for women dating men, we all know a woman many probably who have gotten divorced and were left with nothing after that divorce or had no idea what was going on with their money and that's why you gotta talk about it no it's not and that's why you got to talk about it I don't know how much you share on social media about the discrepancy between you and your partner's finances yeah but this kind of leads me into some of the Q &A's that I was asked you know I was doing some polls on the podcast Instagram story in preparation for this interview.

24:12And this kind of just guides me gently into the first topic, which is sort of about partners and discrepancies in finance. So I just want to go to that particular poll to see what we ask people. Also, I realized that was the longest story ever.

24:26Tori Dunlap:I think I just talked for like 12 minutes. It was a great story. It was a great story and we all needed to hear it. So here was the, we asked people, would you date someone who makes way more or way less than you. What did people say? We had 88 % of people said yes, doesn't matter. 12 % of people said no, too complicated. How much do you share about the discrepancies? I mean, we had an article written about us where we did multiple interviews. We did it on Business Insider. And yeah, I mean, I am a multimillionaire. I'm very clear about that. He makes, he'll probably make this year about$70 ,000.

25:02Tori Dunlap:So like there is a massive discrepancy there. I don't talk about what he does for work but he is a civilian he this is a civilian with no we don't share his name nope we don't share his career nope yeah but he is um he's actually kind of starting a kind of business at my like oh that's fun kind push i'm like hey have you thought about this but yeah he is in education that's what i say so when you met him and he was in education yes how soon in your relationship did you guys talk about money talk about money i mean i assume i I remember you sort of said this in the last episode that you thought he might have Googled you and kind of knew who you were going into the date.

25:41Yes, definitely that.

25:42Tori Dunlap:So we met at a bar. OK. I don't think I've ever said that publicly. But yeah, we met at a bar and my friend was wing womaning me and like basically showed my Instagram. And he was like, this is you. And like got this really cute, like wide eyed look of like, who is this person? So he knew what I was. Knew what I was. He knew what I was. He knew what I was getting into. no he knew who i was and i i guess he went home and googled me to learn out learn more before the date and i did the same thing i think most of us will do a preliminary google to figure out you know are they a murderer like am i am i gonna be safe this was another question was is it okay to google your dates salary okay so salary is different so yeah he knew who i was but we had a conversation about money on the first date the check came which is always a fun yes first date moment yes who's gonna pay and we had this lovely date it was probably the best first date i've ever had and the check comes out and he like looks down at the check and he looks back up at mimi and he looks down at the check and do you remember how much it was um probably like 130 bucks and maybe less i don't remember we were the only people in the restaurant at this time we had had like a two-hour first yeah you know it's like the lights are on they're closing yeah kind of they're like packing up and they're like looking at us like when are you gonna leave and i could tell he was uncomfortable like I had only known him for I don't know two three hours at this point but I was like what's up what's going on he goes I would really like to pay but I don't want to offend you like can I pay so sweet so sweet it literally makes me like a little teary because he knew like feminist activist like oh this is the financial feminist he's like I can't hold a door open for her and I'm like yes you can and I just said that's really sweet yes I would love to have you pay like that's great so he paid the whole bill but like that was the first conversation about money and it was easy to just write that off it's like oh that was a cute moment but to me that was like the best green flag to go he's willing to be uncomfortable like he's willing to have even like two hours in a potentially awkward moment right to make sure he's respecting my feelings but also saying this is what I would like to do I hear a lot from couples of like especially men oh should I do this should I do that you know again I want to be a good feminist boy but I don't want to yeah feel like I'm walking all over somebody and like just ask yeah because every woman is everyone's different I can understand how that can get tricky because you you probably do have the feminists who are like that is offensive that you would think that a man should be paying for this whole meal we just went out equally we should split the bill yeah and then there's other people who are like I don't want to pay for like seven days yeah they're like I don't think a woman should ever pay yeah and so it is it's nice of a man to ask because you just never know especially when you're talking to someone who brands themselves as the financial feminist literally and so that was the first conversation we had about money and then we kept talking about money because you're not going to date me and not talk about money right but the most interesting conversation we had was probably three or four months in we were getting like takeout teriyaki so like a 25 dinner yeah and I just like put my card down because I didn't even think about it I'm like yeah I've got dinner and he sat down and he you could tell like he was very emotional and I was like what again what's up what's going on he's like I know that I shouldn't feel this way but I want to financially contribute more than I'm able basically like I want to be a good like the man right like where I can step up and contribute and he's literally said he's like I know this is gender roles I know that this is like the patriarchy telling me I must provide but like this is still how I feel and he's like I love that you make money and I love that you're doing these things but also I sometimes feel uncomfortable because I feel like I'm not contributing at the same level.

29:22Tori Dunlap:And again, we're like three, maybe six months into dating, but it's very early. And I said, I love that you're thinking about that. Thank you for telling me. I do not expect equality in my relationship. I expect equity in my relationship. So if you and I are making very different amounts of money, I'm not going to ask you to pay 50%. Right. Just like you wouldn't ask me to pay 50%. So and I literally told him then, hey, if we move in together someday, it does not make sense for us to split rent down the middle. We are going to split based on our income or based on the amount of money we have. The same percentage-ish of our...

29:57Tori Dunlap:Right, 70-30, 80-20, whatever we figure out. But I love that you want to contribute. There's other ways that you can contribute in a way that's going to make you feel great. But I'm at the point financially where it's a lot easier for me to cover it than it is for you to stress about every single purchase. And that's one thing for couples that needs to be a conversation is like, what does an equitable partnership look like? Because equal partnerships are, you're not gonna find one. Nobody's financial situation is entirely the same. Nobody has the exact same amount of student loans. Nobody has the exact same financial situation in their families, right?

30:35Tori Dunlap:And this is why talking about money is so important. In these early days of your relationship, clearly it was clear to you that it didn't matter to you if your partner is making the same amount as you. But did you have thoughts around, you know, I need to be with a partner who has a certain layer of financial literacy or a partner that has some sort of financial goal or someone that has a trajectory to earn more? Or are you of the camp of like, that's what I'm doing. That's my focus. But that doesn't have to be my partner's focus. It's a great question. I'm clearly OK dating somebody who doesn't make as much money.

31:09Tori Dunlap:However, if he would have shown like financial red flags to me during that time of like very mindless spending, credit card debt in a way that, you know, went above his means, like that boy's maxing out his Roth IRA every year. Right. And I knew that very early. So I think that that is really what you're looking for. It's not necessarily the amount of money that your partner's making, but more, are they transparent about money? Are they willing to talk about it? Do they have generally good financial habits or are they bettering their financial habits if they're not great? Those are the things I was looking for.

31:42Tori Dunlap:I remember going on a date with somebody. This was pre my current partner. He was like, yeah, credit scores don't really matter. And I go into credit card debt all the time. And I was like, OK, well, I was like, that's that's a red flag. Yeah. And so that's what I was looking for. But it is tricky. Like I would be lying to you if I said this is so easy. It gets frustrating sometimes for me where I'm like, hey, we're going on this really nice vacation. Yes, I do want to stay at the nicer hotel and I will pay for it. But also we both agree that it's going to be really nice when he is able to financially contribute more purely because like that's just a nice thing to do for somebody you love.

32:18And is your partner, would you describe him as being money motivated? I think he is mission motivated more than money.

32:24Tori Dunlap:And also the career. It's lovely. And the career he has chosen. This is the other thing, right? is the career he has chosen he's so good at and cares so much about it but that career does not make money yeah like it's just the reality of it and a lot of people are like that if you're a teacher if you're a nurse like it's very mission driven work non-profit work right like but you're not going to make a lot of money and i'm never going to fault you for that like you're you're literally the backbone of our society yeah you're you know raising and helping educate children or your healthcare, like these positions are really important, but they're very undercompensated.

33:00And I think where the nuance comes in and the, you know, interesting layer that is not really talked about much is it's amazing to be so mission driven and to prioritize other things, perhaps versus a big paycheck. The conversation can't come without the discussion of how, you know, he has the ability. I don't even know if the word is privilege, but he has the ability to do that being in a financial partnership with you. If he ends up marrying you, because I don't know if you plan on getting married, but if you guys end up staying together and ever joining finances in any sort of meaningful way, he has the ability to continue going on with his life, not prioritizing the paycheck, knowing that he's still gonna have a great, safe, secure life.

33:42Whereas not everyone has that ability because the partner they're with can't kind of carry things on their back. Very stereotypically,

33:49Tori Dunlap:that is the role a woman plays in a relationship. Exactly. Or a stay-at-home mom, right? A non-compensated working mom plays in that relationship. The tricky thing is that if you are the lesser compensated or the non-compensated partner, how do you protect your own money? How do you continue making sure that if this relationship ends, you have an emergency fund, you have retirement savings? So usually this is the thing I see with women is they go as far as letting their partner, usually a husband, completely control all of the money. and they know all of the accounts and they know what's going on and they're not an active participant.

34:25Tori Dunlap:And then if divorce happens, like they have no idea what's going on. And so that's one of the things when he was moving in, we talked of like, yeah, we need a lease. And it's not just for me, it's for you to again, protect yourself. So if you just heard my story about my first date with my partner and you thought, well, that sounds nice, Tori, but I have no idea how to talk to my partner or even potential partners about money, I've gamified it for you. If you go to herfirstunderk.com slash FF pod, you can grab my free money conversation cards. These are 30 question cards to help spark fun, intimate conversations about money with your partner.

34:57Tori Dunlap:This helps take the pressure off by making it about a game. It's just you're getting to know this other person and also getting to know you in return. And yes, you can absolutely play this game with friends too. Head on over to herfirst100k.com slash FFpod to grab these money conversation cards. All right, back to the episode. What was the second poll question you asked? Let me pull it up. It was, would you date a partner that made less than you but also is it okay to google their salary and i wanted to talk about it because it's spicy i can give you the responses yeah we had about 52 percent said yes 38 percent said maybe once it's serious okay and only 10 said never i love that maybe once it's serious is a common answer because i'm like i was talking about salary i think even before we were like officially officially together dating but also that you also work in money yes of course But I think that's good to be transparent to a certain level.

35:52Tori Dunlap:How accurate is their salary information going to be when you Google? That was honestly my first thing. I mean, it's even on Indeed, the salaries are not accurate. No, you Google me, the net worth websites are not accurate. Sometimes it's like$1 to$2 million. That is too low. And sometimes it's like$25 million. I do not have$25 million. Maybe if I sold her first$100K. That's the other thing is like, what is your net worth? Is it what you're worth? Is it what you're worth? Is it the money in the bank or is it your assets? And I would define it as a financial expert as your assets. Like, yeah, my business is probably worth, I don't even know how much, but like if I choose to sell it someday, what is that?

36:27Tori Dunlap:What is that worth? Plus the house and the car and the 401k. But I think Googling your partner or your date salary, again, you're not going to find very accurate information. And two, like, I think it is actually a good opportunity to ask them or start talking about money. It doesn't have to be, you know, gun to their head. Like, how much money do you make? You can start, again, with that guy I was talking about where he was like, oh, yeah, I go into credit card debt all the time. They will drop little breadcrumbs for you. And then you can start to put that together to view what their financial picture is.

36:59Tori Dunlap:Or at least what they want you to believe their financial picture is. Also, God forbid you go to share your phone with them to show them something. And the latest search is Tori Dunlap salary. I mean, I had somebody Google me in front of me on a date. Oh, no. Well, because I started talking, you know, what do you do for work? And I started talking about it. and he's like oh let me look you up and googled me and he's like you're verified on instagram and i'm like it's over i'm like it's over it's over it's over you have beautiful eyes but it's over that is so funny all right i want to go back to the house for a second but more in relation to friendships and this was an area that we polled people about fun i think that for some reason for whatever reason talking about money in the friendship context ends up being extremely taboo I have best friends who we've never once mentioned a single thing about our income or how much salary someone's making or family's financial situation.

37:52I can tell you why that happens. I do want to hear about it. But I guess the more targeted question that I wanted to dive into is, is it, here was the question I asked, should people share with a friend what they paid for their house if they bought a home? As opposed to the Zillow? The options were we tell each other openly or we all secretly creep on Zillow. It was pretty 50-50, although a little bit more skewed towards people secretly creeping. I feel like if a friend asks me how much my house costs, I'm happy to share how much I bought my house for. And I do also understand, on the flip side, feeling a little uncomfortable being the one to pose that question.

38:31Even though I think it should be normal to talk about and it is public information in many ways, something about it feels weird to say oh how much because you just don't know what type of person

38:41Tori Dunlap:you're broaching i mean it is michael scott at david wallace's dinner party he's like david how much does this house cost but is it a rude question i mean okay so i just asked you that no but and but we are on the real side and i'll also tell you like yeah i'll give you it's over a million yeah but it's more like i would tell you off mic totally totally but we'll do that after Yeah, great. But as soon as you start talking for me as a public person in real numbers, then it's like you can start to pinpoint my location. So the reason none of us want to talk about money generally, but especially for these bigger purchases is very specific as women.

39:16Tori Dunlap:First of all, men are conditioned to talk about money. They're conditioned to pursue money and want money and they're applauded for the pursuit of wealth. Women are not allowed. We are not allowed to want money. We're not allowed to say we want to be rich because we must be selfless at all costs. and something about saying I want money means you're greedy or you're selfish or you're gaucher and polite. Right. And we've also associated having money with being a bad person because we've all met or seen a shitty rich person. And at the end of the day, money is a morally neutral thing. It becomes moral or the morality kicks in as soon as you decide what you're doing with it.

39:53Right.

39:53Tori Dunlap:There are plenty of shitty rich people. There are plenty of very generous, kind rich people. And I think the thesis of our work is like money means options. especially for members of marginalized groups like money is your way out of bad situations it's your way into good ones it's your way into safety and stability uniquely with women so not only are we not allowed to talk about money but also we feel guilt and shame whether we're doing poorly financially or well financially men don't feel that so if we have debt if we have you know our student loans are piling up if we're nervous about going on that bachelorette party because we can't afford it and let's be clear it's not a party anymore it's like a full week it's like you feel really really self-conscious about that on the flip side if you're doing well men are allowed to own that women are not so then you feel shame yep oh yeah this designer dress oh but I'm gonna wear it 12 times right right or oh I got this thing on sale or oh I give a lot to charity like we hear that a lot with like wealthy women right you have to couch it and you have to say oh but I'm really generous and I feel this as somebody who is very publicly a multi-millionaire I have to be like oh but I pay my team I charge this so I can pay my team well yeah and like all those things are true but men don't feel the need to couch yeah yeah so when it comes to like talking about houses that's probably the biggest financial decision it was my biggest financial decision I've ever made yeah and so it's a concrete price tag and uh transparently I got really nervous sharing the whole process with even my team because I'm like I'm really excited about the house and I know they're really excited for me.

41:28Tori Dunlap:I'm sure they would tell me if I asked them. They probably all went to Zillow and like figured out how much I spent. Right. And that makes me really nervous. The other part you have to remember is that okay let's say a house house costs two million dollars. They didn't necessarily have two million dollars to put down. Right. Right. And so that's the flip side. It's like this is an asset that you're putting 20 % down or 40 or whatever that looks like, you might not have$2 million in the bank or six or 10 million or whatever crazy number. But I think with the house in particular, for me, it was the first physical manifestation of my wealth that I've ever had.

42:03Tori Dunlap:And that was a little nerve wracking because I had not made a significant financial investment other than my business prior to that. It was all in investments. It was all in my bank account or in reserves for the business. And so I was kind of freaked out by that. I have friends who have asked me because they know I'll tell them how much money I paid. And I was very open and honest with them. But I have definitely left friends' houses and done the Zillow check. But more because I'm curious. And I was on Zillow. I'm still, I literally, taking the train in today, was like, how much does a house cost in this neighborhood?

42:36Tori Dunlap:Because I just get really, I'm like, oh, what if I just upended my entire life and moved? And moved to the East Coast. Literally, that's how I feel all the time. So I think it is, it's like uniquely very emotional, but because we're conditioned as women to downplay our financial success or to even apologize for it, because we're worried that that might impact our friendship. Right. Right. If you're talking about the restaurants you're able to go to or the house you're able to buy or not buy, you're worried that somebody else is judging you. And to be honest, they might be because we've been, again, conditioned to see people with wealth as gauche and people without wealth as not trying hard enough.

43:17Tori Dunlap:Right. Both of those are losing games. Yeah. And you know, that that takes me to sort of the next topic on the house picture, which when it comes to friends, I think part of the reason that people might feel icky about talking about it or asking the question of how much you paid. Someone wrote this in the question box. They literally wrote the question, how are people paying for houses? Like, how is this even happening. And it kind of leads to that. If you're not talking openly about money and you don't have the you're not having the discussions, how are people supposed to get information about this kind of stuff?

43:47And men talk about money all the time, which is one of many reasons why they have more of it. Yes. Like that's it. And like what one of the questions I asked here was, should you tell people if your parents helped you buy a house? We had 62 percent of people said yes, transparency. transparency and 38 % said no private. No, that's private info. And I think my answer to this question is, I mean, this is circumstantial. Like if you are close, I don't think if you are walking down the street and someone says, where do you live? And you say down the block and you would have to say, oh, but my parents bought the house.

44:21Yeah. Actually, absolutely out of context and ridiculous. But if you're talking to a friend and they're asking, hey, how did you actually do this? Because I want to buy a house too and I'm struggling. And your parents did help you buy a house. There's friends and a time and a place to share that information. With my house, Michael and I did not have any parents helping us. But you know, we bought it with the money we've been working for for a decade. Yeah, actually, my parents are particularly removed from my finances in that I'm not even this is another question. Do people openly need to share their salaries and income with their family?

44:50Yeah, my parents are kind of particularly out of the loop with my income. Sure. I'll give them like little tidbits of fun projects I'm doing, but I'm not sitting down at the end of the year and walking them through how my business is doing. Here's the spreadsheet. Here's the spreadsheet if you want to see it. I don't feel that private about it so much as I, it just doesn't come up. I like to have the boundary of making my own work decisions. And so I talked to Michael about that stuff and not them. But there were a couple of times when I was having conversations with people about buying a house and they didn't ask the question of, you know, did your parents help or were they involved in any way?

45:26But it's where my brain was going is that almost like they don't believe that I bought this house by myself. Yes. Because I don't share with them how much money I make, how much money Michael makes, like what our family finances are. I got the same question, by the way. And I assume that's what people think. And I do feel for whatever reason, I feel the internal desire or need to caveat my house purchase with a, but I did it myself. Yes. And it's like, why? Why do we feel that? Yeah.

45:53Tori Dunlap:Oh, we could have another hour conversation about why we feel this way again so people have asked you this you're saying yes people have asked me you did you do this whole thing yourself like one of almost said his name one of my partner's uh friends came over they're work friends they both do the same thing and he was just walking through the house and it's a nice house and he was like this is all yours this is all yours and i go yeah and then he would walk some more and he was like did you you bought this i was like yes i bought this and he just keeps walking around and he's like you did this tell yourself and I was like yes yes I did he's like you don't rent and I'm like no and I think um because his field does not make a lot of money I think that was just like yeah I truly feel like this bizarre pull between constantly feeling the need to acknowledge my privilege because I know so deeply how privileged I am and how privileged I've been in my life and who's to say if I would be anywhere close to where I am without things that I was just luck of the draw given.

46:52And it feels so hard to approach every day from that mindset and to not, you know, feel the desire to start giving all the reasons why I worked hard and I'm like proud of myself. And it's, it almost like wipes out all the proudness that I could feel because I was given the privilege. And so I, it's almost like, where can I go? Like, should I just crawl in a hole? Like, is anything that I'm building actually a result of my work or is it all on the back of the like one spot on earth that I was born into I love that you're talking about this it kind of relates I don't think you meant

47:27Tori Dunlap:to do this but exactly to what we were talking about at the beginning which is like you see people online and they trigger you in some way no matter who that person is they can teach you something about you so sitting there and going yeah why am I triggered by this person oh Lucy you have so much to say what you just said um I struggled with this for a really long time especially when I was writing my book, because I teach women to be good with money. I'm good at it. I also have my own financial journey that I've had. I didn't want to write a book that was, I did it so you can do it too. Right.

47:56Tori Dunlap:And I also didn't want the book to be, just work really hard and things will happen for you. Because for me, the definition of financial feminism is like, we do what we can with what we have while we work to change everything else. But I was writing the intro to the book. It took, I think I wrote 12 different versions of that introduction i was like why write this whole book if somebody who's actually in poverty can't do anything i tell them right if you don't have two pennies to scrape together i can't teach you how to save money i can't teach you to pay off debt and that's not because i'm bad at my job it's because this is the way the system's set up right my first couple intros were just like an apology yeah like literally just like sorry i'm so sorry i have privilege i was trying to like how do i acknowledge it while also not being like, oh, gross fucking white girl.

48:43Tori Dunlap:Like it was like it was it was hard. And I went through so many iterations of it. And the thing I realized is acknowledging my privilege is not an apology. It's a statement of fact. And yes, I guess I'm doing it for somebody else, but I'm doing it for somebody else so that they know, hey, I am aware of the things that might have gotten me to first base. Now, I still had to run home. Right. There was still effort there right but as opposed to starting at home plate or at the other field right i started at first base people rightfully so this is not a blaming thing people don't have concept like concepts of a financial picture that doesn't look like theirs so for most people again home ownership is out of the question out of the question and the only way they were would be able to do it is if somebody gave them a loan right whether that's parents or i don't know a bank or they won the lottery like for the vast majority of people that's the financial reality and i think that um if you are middle class or maybe even upper middle class parents do help a lot right but there isn't the same stigma in the same way with college like i think it's all kind of like we have sometimes parents are able to help sometimes they're not i'm very open that like my parents had a college fund for me and i also worked three jobs on campus but you notice i also have to couch it.

50:03Tori Dunlap:I have to be like, but I work too. We do this all the time. It's the same thing with buying something nice. Again, it's like, oh, I bought it on sale or, oh, I'm going to wear it a lot or, oh, I've rented it. I've had conversations with good friends of mine about everything their prenup entails. I've had conversations with friends about the money they do or don't get from their parents or the money that they're spending to take care of their parents. We're having very open conversations but again a house is a physical manifestation of wealth yep in a way that most things aren't you know you look at very wealthy people and most of them are not wearing the crazy designer luxury right it's like the only physical manifestation of wealth because most of the wealth is in investments that you see right is like a nice car or a nice house yeah or maybe a pj if you're somebody absolutely crazy wealthy who doesn't give a shit like it's a pj a private shit okay i thought you were talking about like nice luxury pajamas that that is my pj maybe a silky pj set absolutely your summer runs just got a boost of energy in lululemon's shake it out shorts made in our ultra breezy lightweight swift fabric the shake it out shorts have a flowy layered hem and a comfy built-in liner.

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52:46I want to go into some of these questions so that we can make sure to answer what some people want to know. You mentioned to me financial infidelity. This was something that I was like, what is the most taboo money topic? And you said financial infidelity, which my understanding of that was like spending behind your partner's back. Or having debt and not telling your partner. Which I've heard is a thing that comes out, you know, sometimes after marriage. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about the stories you've heard or what you know about financial infidelity and what's going on there?

53:15Tori Dunlap:I mean, I will not out her by name, but one of my friends, when I first started doing this work, we were doing money coaching together. And I was doing at the time, like, literally sit down at a coffee shop, let me look at your budget and everything. And she was like, I have$80 ,000 of credit card debt and my husband doesn't know. And I was like, oh my God. And this person so kind and sweet and like transparent but like felt so much shame because they're like I spend money I don't have I think I have a bit of a shopping addiction it's my way of coping and I'm so freaked out by it yeah I'm so worried about going to this person I love more than anything and being like this is the reality of it so I coached her through like how do you have this conversation and she ended up talking to him and he was so lovely about it and was like okay hey, let's figure out how we can do this together.

54:03Tori Dunlap:But what I told her was, you have to be honest with him and you have to go to him and just be like, I'm really, like, I'm shitting my pants telling you this. Like, I'm so nervous. I'm so nervous. Like, you're going to leave me or so nervous that we're going to get in this huge fight about it. And I know you're probably going to be angry because I would be angry too. But like, this is what's going on. And I think their relationship is stronger for it, but it's so scary. Was that mostly a product of her having impulse purchases? Impulse purchases was definitely like, I don't want to out her so I'm trying to figure out like how do I say this but like her body fluctuated quite a lot and so it was like oh I'll spend money on new clothes if I'm heavier and I'll spend money on new clothes if I'm skinnier and then like back and forth and back and forth and it was also to just yeah it was like coping it's like how many people reach for alcohol or weed or whatever you know substance of choice it was like shopping right dopamine hit of getting things in the mail or going to the store all the time so yeah financial infidelity I don't want to misquote the statistic but the thing i told you off mic is the last time i looked i think it was like 30 to 40 percent of partners commit some sort of financial infidelity wow which is so high i feel like people even do it for some small purchases that their partner probably would not care about small purchases i think but they feel they carry something it's more we're talking yeah a lot of debt or um having like even savings or like secret investments somewhere else like i've talked very openly with my partner about where my money lives and if we do choose to get married or you know even a version of partnership that is more us entrenched like I want some of us or I want both of us to have some of our own money but I'm going to be transparent as to what that money is and where it lives right I think that's the other thing is it's like it's either I have a lot of debt and I'm ashamed of it and I don't want to tell my partner especially if it's active debt like it keeps accumulating or it's I make more money than I actually am telling you I do or I make less money than I'm actually telling you I do.

56:05Tori Dunlap:The stat I found from my book that was just so frustrating. So in heteronormative relationships, men and women, census data tells us that men who make less than their female partners will lie and say they make more and women in those same relationships who make more will lie and say they make less wow because of gender roles and because of right the inequity and income especially with women making more money so that on both sides is a version of like financial infidelity in a way of like it's not transparent i'm not saying like how dare you cheat on your partner in this way it's again very human nature to be like i'm apologizing for making as much money as i am and i feel shame about that absolutely i feel shame that I'm in debt or not making more money.

56:50Tori Dunlap:But how are you going to have a healthy relationship if you can't be honest with your partner about money? Just like you can't be honest with them about what you want in bed or like, do you want kids or not? Like you have to talk about money just like you talk about all the rest of these things. Right. Okay. Here's another question. How to find a good financial advisor. Don't. Okay. Why? You're saying do it yourself. I am saying get my programs and I'll teach you how to invest. Yes. But here's the deal with financial advisors. If you are going to work with one, you got to make sure they're doing two things for you.

57:18Tori Dunlap:They're charging you an hourly rate, not a percentage, not a retainer. Work with somebody that's going to charge you by the hour. And second, actually there's three. Second, make sure they're not taking a percentage of your portfolio or putting you in things that charge an additional fee. So if you're at Edward Jones, and yes, I will call them out by name, run. They're charging you so much in fees to do nothing for you. But the third thing, make sure they're what's called a fiduciary. You can ask them, are you a fiduciary? This means that they're legally obligated to act in your own best interest.

57:54Tori Dunlap:And you'd think, shouldn't everybody have that? They're managing my money. They're like protecting my retirement. Nope. There's plenty of people who are not fiduciaries. And so we'll often recommend things to you where they make a very high commission, but are not really the best investments for you. So hourly, make sure they're not taking an additional percentage and make sure they're a fiduciary. Is there no argument to be made that a financial advisor who is more seasoned or works in a better type of role might absolutely be taking a percentage and that you're getting a worse financial advisor by going to the hourly people?

58:30So there was a study done over the last 10 years of investment gains.

58:34Tori Dunlap:Only 25 % of financial advisors outperformed individual investors making diversified investment choices. So what does that mean? only 25 % of people. So a quarter of the people we pay to be good at their job were actually good at their job. If I had to have open heart surgery and they had a 25 % success rate, I am going to a different open heart country, or I guess I'm operating on myself. Like, no. And that's the reality is they have done a very, the propaganda machine for traditional like financial institutions is very good at convincing you that they can outperform the market and that they know what they're doing and oh you're too stupid to understand they don't say that but like that's kind of implied this is really complicated i've got it yeah and the reality is it's not that complicated i teach literally tens of thousands of people every year to invest and also this billion dollar industry has been built on making you feel like you're too stupid to understand and that is not an accident that is literally how they make money but only 25 of them outperform you or I investing in the stock market or the listeners investing in the stock market.

59:42Tori Dunlap:That's a really bad percentage. I'm gonna pay this person thousands of dollars, potentially more every single year for them to be not even good at their job, three quarters of the time. Like, no, no, it's a bad investment, pun intended. So is your goal to try to show people how to manage their own investments? Yes, and you can do it. It's really not that complicated. And I mean, I can give you very quick step-by-step. you're going to open an investment account whether that is what's called a Roth IRA that's like a retirement account investment google it to make sure you qualify you're going to open this at any financial institution the second thing you're going to do if I was you I would pick like a diversified index fund an index fund is a group of stocks so rather than just trying to like choose the hot thing right now like I don't know Tesla and then weird stuff with Elon Musk like NVIDIA Yeah, like picking an index fund has hundreds, if not thousands of different companies.

1:00:35Tori Dunlap:So it helps mitigate your risk. So that's what I would do is I would open up my Roth IRA. I would choose something like VTI, which is a total stock market index fund. And then I would just keep plugging my money, buying more VTI. Right. That's what I would do until you have to figure about, like, as you age, what that diversification looks like. The issue is, though, I just said that very simply. You log into your Fidelity, Vanguard, Charles Schwab, Robinhood account, and you're like, they do not make this simple. That's by design. So that you call them and work with one of their wealth managers and that they take even more money from you.

1:01:10Tori Dunlap:Even again, I'm a financial expert. I logged into Fidelity the other day and I was like, this is the most confusing platform I've ever seen. Like there's so many graphs and charts. You don't, you're like, where can I just buy the thing? Like how do I deposit money? And then how do I buy the thing? They make it so confusing. We've taken out all of that confusion. Are you saying that someone who right now has a pretty low income but is still able to have a little bit of extra money should be investing? It depends on where you're at in your financial life. If you don't have an emergency fund, that's your first priority.

1:01:41Tori Dunlap:And if you have credit card debt, that's your second priority. Then we want to think of investing. The reason behind those, and we talk about it so much in our book and podcast too, is that the emergency fund, you need money in the bank should something happen. You also, your mental health's better. Like, yeah, your head hits the pillow. You know if shit goes down tomorrow, you're going to be fine. And especially if you're a member of a marginalized group, like, I need you to have a fuck off fund. Like, enough money to say, oh, I'm getting sexually harassed at work. I'm going to leave. Or I'm in a bad, unsafe apartment.

1:02:11Tori Dunlap:I can get out. And then the credit card debt thing, credit card debt's so high. We're talking, like, on average, 22%, 23 % interest. That's really, really high. The average amount you can make investing is 7 % to 10 % interest. so if you're asking should I pay off this debt first or should I invest first you're looking at is it more expensive to be in debt than I could be making on the stock market and with credit card which it is it is yes versus like a mortgage or a student loan that's like four and a half percent or seven percent right that's kind of right on the cusp then we're investing first right right okay such valuable information yay thank you so much for coming on this is going to be such a fun chat I don't even know how I could possibly title this episode because it spans far and wide I literally was thinking about that because as a podcaster I do the same thing where I have great conversations with people and then I'm like what the hell am I gonna do so what was the title I think this is just a chat about all things money how to be transparent about finances I don't know we'll be texting to figure out the title I'm sorry I don't know I have no idea thank you so much for coming back thank you for coming to my neighborhood it was so great to see you in person hopefully we'll have you back for a third time third run three p three p great thank you thank you for listening to Financial Feminists, produced by Her First 100K.

1:03:20Tori Dunlap:If you love this show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you're looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to herfirst100k.com slash sspod.