295. How to Overcome Your Limiting Beliefs About Money with Nir Eyal

19:42Okay?

19:43Nir Eyal:That's just information. It's our judgment about what happens to us that causes the suffering. And what we judge is based on our beliefs. All we do all day is judge. Good, bad, good, bad, good, bad. Everything is, you know, we're judging, judging, judging, judging. And that's in fact, what causes our suffering. And so to free ourselves from that suffering, and in fact, increase our motivation to do what we want to do, we have to get comfortable with that discomfort. We have to welcome the pain. And this is what we see with successful people across all kinds of fields, whether it's athletics, whether it's in business, whether it's the arts.

20:15Nir Eyal:They have figured out how to get comfortable with discomfort. They understand that feeling bad is not bad. And when they have that change in judgment, when their beliefs change, so does everything else in their life. I literally just wrote down, if you're avoiding discomfort, your life is probably not that exciting. like your life is probably not very interesting to you like and that's the truth is it's like you're probably listening to this episode because there's something in your life you want to change and the fact of that is is like you're going to feel uncomfortable and that's the only way the change is going to happen so if you're avoiding discomfort and to your point if you're avoiding that pain or that that inconvenience yeah you probably haven't kept your promises to yourself you probably are playing pretty small because on the other side of you know all the cliches are true on the other side of fear is everything you want but like that's the reality of this so you are already doing something that I think it's very easy for somebody to miss if they are not doing it which is in the moment not only going maybe it's not so bad but like sitting there for a second And I will say so much of my success, I think, is understanding when I am traveling down roads that do not serve me and not only stopping myself, realizing I'm doing it first, but then stopping myself from going down that road again.

21:39So walk me through that exercise of how do we not just, you know, the moment pass us by, but how do we one, see it and be mindful of it and then two, actually redirect it or have a different outlook on what's happening?

21:55Nir Eyal:Okay, sure. So let me share with you one area of my life that most changed learning about the psychology of beliefs. And the reason I want to share this example is because when you talk about the science and the studies, that's all very convincing and great evidence, but there's nothing like actually watching someone struggle. So let me share with you my struggle. Now, this isn't a money struggle because I wanted to give you an example that's very universal. This is just one technique, but let me share with you one revolutionary belief. change that I had in my life. Because something that I've, a belief that I've carried with me for decades is that my mom is super judgmental.

22:33Nir Eyal:Okay. A lot of people's moms are judgmental. Mine is extra, super judgmental and very hard to please. And a few years ago, I remember that I wanted to get her some flowers. It was her birthday. The problem was I was living in Singapore and she was in central Florida where I grew up. And despite the time difference, I stayed up till one in the morning and I called the best florist I could find in, in center Florida. And I got the best possible bouquet that I was sure that she was going to love Tori. And she was going to tell me the next morning that I was the best son ever for getting her these beautiful flowers.

23:05Nir Eyal:And that's not what happened. What happened was I call her up the next day and I say, Hey mom, happy birthday. Did you get the flowers I sent? To which she says, yes, I got the flowers. But just so you know, they were half dead. So don't order from that florist again. to which I said, well, that's the last time I buy you flowers or something like that. I'm a little embarrassed that's what I said, but that's what happened. Now, my wife, who is, we work together, she's my editor and she knows the research I do. And she was sitting right next to me and she turns to me after the call and she says, Nir, would you like to do a turnaround on this?

23:43Nir Eyal:To which I said, Nir, I do not want to do your touchy-feely, hocus-pocus, mumbo-jumbo. I need to vent because did you hear what just happened? Well, it turns out I knew enough about the psychology literature at that point to know that's actually not very helpful. That when we vent about people, what the psychology literature tells us is that we are reinforcing our beliefs about them. Because what we know is that we don't see reality clearly. We don't see people clearly, especially the ones we know best. We see them as we believe them to be. So we don't see people as they are. We see people as we are.

24:17Nir Eyal:And the more we talk about people and say, oh, there she goes again. She always does this. This is so like her. We're just reinforcing this effigy of that person. So I said, okay, fine. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to take my wife's advice. I'm going to do a turnaround. So I'm going to walk you through this process. And if folks are listening, you can do this yourself. What you can do, the first step, is to find an area of your life where you're suffering. Any area of your life. Maybe it's credit card debt. Maybe it's starting in that new business. Maybe it's your inability to save. Maybe it's that you've wanted to go to the gym, but haven't made time for it.

24:50Nir Eyal:You wanted to repair a relationship. It's that New Year's resolution that you've had year after year that you're not doing. What area of your life do you find yourself suffering? For me, it was my relationship with my mom. The next question is, why? What's the reason? Why are you suffering? What's the reason you're not doing that thing you want to do? Whatever it might be, I want you to just write down, what's the reason? For me, what was causing my suffering is that my mom is judgmental and hard to please. And that pissed me off. That's what was causing my suffering. Now that you have that reason, okay, we're going to label that our belief.

25:28Nir Eyal:Okay, that's our belief. And then we're going to use a process called inquiry-based stress reduction. This came from a woman by the name of Byron Katie, who did a genius job of distilling down actually thousands of years of this practice. Turns out Aristotle did something very similar 2 ,000 years ago. But Byron Katie gives us these four questions to ask ourselves of this belief. And I think it's one really useful thing. It's not the only technique, but it's one very useful technique that's actually been validated now in several studies. And so here are the four questions. The first question is you look at that belief.

25:59Nir Eyal:My mother is judgmental and hard to please in my case. Is it true? What a stupid question. Obviously, Tori, you heard what my mom said. Obviously, she's super judgmental, right? If someone buys you flowers from the other side of the planet and sends them to you, right? What do you say? Thank you. They're beautiful. Exactly. You're the best son ever. Wow. That's right. I've never had a son like you. It's the most beautiful bouquet I've ever seen. You spent so much money you shouldn't have. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So stupid question. Question number one. Let's skip that one. Let's go to question number two.

26:37Nir Eyal:Is it absolutely true? Sounds like the first question, right? It's a little bit different. Is it absolutely true? Could I be absolutely 100 % sure? It's a fact. A fact is always true. There's never exceptions. The reason my mom said what she said was because she was being judgmental and hard to please. Could I be 100 % sure? Could there be even a 1 % chance that's not true? Maybe. I don't know what that other reason might be, but yeah, okay, I had to admit there might be another reason. Okay, fine. So maybe it's not a fact. Maybe it's a belief. Okay. The third question, how do I feel, who do I become when I hold on to that belief?

27:19Nir Eyal:So when I believe my mom is too judgmental and hard to please, how do I feel? You know, replace it with whatever belief you might have. Money is corrupting. I'm no good with money. Rich people are always greedy. Lucky things don't happen to me. I'll never succeed at starting a business. I'm not an entrepreneur. I'll never get out of debt. Whatever that limiting belief is, when you sit with that belief, just sit with it for a second. How do you feel? For me, when I held on to that belief, my mother is judgmental and hard to please. whether or not it's true, I felt crappy, right? If you tell somebody, I'm never going to get out of debt.

27:55Nir Eyal:If you believe that, what happens to your motivation to try and get out of debt? It goes down. What happens to your suffering every single day? You believe that it goes up, right? And that's what was happening with me. I felt, I felt impatient. I felt this 13 year old version of myself that I didn't really like whenever I held onto that belief. And finally, the fourth question, who would you be without that belief? So if I had a magic wand and, you know, Harry Potter style, I zap it at your brain and that belief completely dissolved, okay? The belief, whatever it is that you're holding on, that you think is a fact, just let it go completely.

28:34Nir Eyal:Just pay attention to how your body feels when you just let it dissolve. It didn't ever exist. When I tried that, I realized that believing that my mom was judgmental and hard to please letting go of that belief, all of a sudden I felt lighter. I felt better. I felt more like the person I wanted to be. So in just four questions, I realized the belief or the thing that I was holding onto that I thought was a fact was just a belief that holding onto it made me suffer, didn't feel good, and that letting it go served me. I felt way, way better. Okay. So just with those four questions, now we're ready for the turnaround.

29:10Nir Eyal:This is the fun part. this is where we're going to ask ourselves, could the opposite of that belief also be true? Okay, not is it true? Could it be true? Remember, beliefs are tools, not truth. So what we're trying to find here, we're collecting a portfolio of perspectives, just like our stock portfolio, right? We don't want to put all our eggs in one basket and just invest in one stock. We want to diversify. Well, maybe we don't want to invest in just one belief. What are other potential beliefs that we might hold, right? What's the opposite of your belief? The thing that you think is the reason you're suffering, okay?

29:44Nir Eyal:For me, my mother is too judgmental and hard to please. What's the opposite? My mother is not too judgmental and hard to please. Sounds crazy, but could it be true? Could it be true, right? She did thank me for the flowers. She was just saying a statement of fact. The flowers weren't so nice. So could I be sure that she wasn't trying to be helpful, perhaps? Maybe she just didn't want me to make it scammed from this florist? Could be, right? Could be another reason. Okay, now the third turnaround. Let's try another belief. The opposite of my mother is too judgmental and hard to please. Could be I am too judgmental and hard to please.

30:22Nir Eyal:Could that be true? Sounds crazy, but could it be true? Well, wasn't I the one who was rehearsing exactly the script that I deserve to hear from my mom, as you recited very eloquently, that she didn't say. And when I didn't get that praise telling me what a wonderful son I am, I lost it, didn't I? So who exactly was being judgmental? Me. Okay, here's one more turnaround, a fourth belief. The opposite of my mother is too judgmental and hard to please could be I am too judgmental and hard to please towards myself. And you know what? That actually turned out to be the most true. Because when I did this nice thing and I spent all this time and money and effort on it and it didn't work out, I felt incompetent.

31:06Nir Eyal:I felt like I'd messed up. I felt like this was my fault. And this is a very important psychological concept called misattribution of emotion. Misattribution of emotion. When we feel crappy on the inside, We look to attribute it to something on the outside. I can't believe she said that. How dare he do that? Did you see what happened in the news today? And the financial system is rigged against us. All this stuff outside of us. That's why I feel crummy on the inside. And that's exactly what I did to my mom. So now let me ask you, Tori, out of these four beliefs, now I have a portfolio of perspectives, okay?

31:39Nir Eyal:Which one of those is true? Which one's false? All of them? None of them? Who cares? Who cares? Beliefs are tools, not truths. Was it serving me to believe my mother is too judgmental and hard to please? Does it serve you to believe you could never be an entrepreneur, you could never save money, you could never get out of credit card debt? Does that serve you? Well, for this belief that I had, that my mother is too judgmental and hard to please, she had to change so I could be happy. Let me tell you, Tori, you don't know my mom, but I'm telling you that ain't gonna happen. because whenever we wait for outside factors to change so we could stop suffering, if you hold your breath, you're going to suffocate.

32:20Nir Eyal:It doesn't work that way. The other three beliefs I could do something with. Now I was in control of my suffering. Doesn't mean I have to be best friends with my mom. Doesn't mean we have to go to the park every day and picnic. No, it doesn't mean any of that. It just means I don't have to suffer. So even the belief of saving money is hard. And who says something hard is bad? right? Maybe something hard means it's meaningful, means you'll savor it, means it's an opportunity to grow and prove to yourself, to your kids, to your family that you're able to do something. So all of our suffering fundamentally comes down to our belief that the suffering doesn't happen out here.

32:57Nir Eyal:The suffering always happens up here based on our interpretation. So that's one example of how I found my limiting belief. I explored that portfolio of perspectives by asking myself, could the opposite be true? And then decided to pick a liberating belief, which I constantly have to repeat to myself, which allows me to not suffer through this discomfort. I need everybody listening to go back 10 minutes and listen to that whole thing again. That was so important. And I think that this is the practice that you have to get comfortable doing where, yeah, it kind of feels woo-woo or it feels weird.

33:33It's like, okay, I'm going to talk to myself and my brain. Okay. But yes, if you are tired of suffering from this particular thing, that's not working. So how about we try something else? Right? And I think the thing that you just said that I want to like double click on, one of the things that I think is so important about the work that I do and the community we've built is that we acknowledge very clearly that your financial situation is not 100 % your fault. because there's so many systemic reasons that you might not be able to save money or get out of debt or be an entrepreneur, right? And especially for women, there is so much, not only pressure, but just the reality of inequity and inequality in our system.

34:20And also, we have so much personal responsibility. And I think that both of those things can be true. You can be saying, yeah, I have student loans because nobody taught me how they worked. and it's a fucking crisis and they're really expensive and none of those things are your fault. But the thing with our work that we talk about is, yes, all of those things are outside of your control. And it's not that we shouldn't acknowledge them and realize them, right? I might be in student loan debt. Yes, because no one taught me how to think about debt. No one taught me what it meant. No one taught me how expensive college was going to be.

35:00Women take on way more student loans than men do statistically. All of those things are true. We have a trillion dollar student debt crisis in this country, right? All of those things can be true. And at the same time, the 20 % that is within your control, I need you to take fucking seriously. Because you can't use the systemic reasons as an excuse. You can use them as evidence as to why this might have happened, right? Or as your way as not beating yourself up all the time or not allowing shame to come in. Absolutely. But they cannot be the reason that you don't take ownership over your own life and your own money.

35:41And that is what I'm so worried women do, especially because we're so good in the show about acknowledging, here's all the systemic shit that you're not going to be able to control. But that's why you have to take the 20 % seriously. Because if 80%, you have no control over. And then you have to show up for that 20. Yeah.

36:02Nir Eyal:Yeah. And look, it's not up to me to tell particularly women what to believe and what to think. But I'll tell you what I heard from another woman that really stuck with me. I was talking to Cody Sanchez, who I know you know, and she's a great example of an entrepreneur who's really kicking butt out there. And she told me how she, from a very young age, she loved being the only woman in the room full of men who didn't understand what she was doing there. It's not only that you can say, well, I'm going to succeed despite it. You can actually relish it. Could it be true that you're like, hell yeah, right?

36:39Nir Eyal:I want that adversity. I want that story because you know what? I'm going to be the last generation that faces it because the next generation of women is not going to face it. And so I'm going to have the story of overcoming this. That's going to be part of my hero story that I get to tell. That could be true. And I'm not saying that has to be everybody's story, but you can always find a belief that serves you whether or not it's true. This is the amazing thing. It doesn't have to be true. Beliefs are tools, not truth. In Cody's case, it served her to have this belief of relishing the fact that she was a woman in a male-dominated industry.

37:19Nir Eyal:That was her belief. She loved it. She was disappointed when that wasn't the case because she told herself, this is a good thing. I love this. And that's all in her head, right? It's completely a made-up story. So we can use that same power. Why? Why would we do that? Well, because the alternative is such a bummer. The alternative causes stasis. The alternative causes you to lack motivation and increase your suffering. So you've got to change that story in order to ultimately change your behavior. And you can acknowledge the injustice of it and also say, okay, what am I going to actually do for me?

37:55Because the thing I talk about all the time is like, yes, we know that the patriarchy has all of these impacts on women. And also, we cannot be victim to patriarchy as much as we are in control of that. because then that's right there we're given patriarchy exactly what it wants so it's like the worst thing you can do is say all of these things are going to be the reason i can't do it it's like find all reason one reason that you might be able to even if it's not perfect even if it's not yeah the perfect formula yeah absolutely there's actually research to back

38:31Nir Eyal:this up they did studies on uh people who have what's called an external locus of control versus an internal locus of control, an external locus of control, that type of person says, things that happen to me in my life are because of external circumstances. It's the economy, it's my family, it's my upbringing, it's whatever. That's their basis of what controls their life is things outside of them. Then we have people who have what's called an internal locus of control. This is very, very well studied in psychology. An internal locus of control says, no, I affect what I do in the world, right? Most of what happens to me is because of what I do.

39:05Nir Eyal:Now, here's the kicker. We know that people with an internal locus of control do better in almost every conceivable metric. They make more money, they have more friends, they contribute more to their community, they have fewer instances of mental health issues like depression, anxiety. All the good things happen to people who have an internal locus of control over people who have an external locus of control. But what's amazing is that even when people statistically have every reason to point to the fact that they are downtrodden, that they are discriminated against, that they are at the lowest place on the socioeconomic total pool, even when that is a fact, indisputable, those with an internal locus of control still do better.

39:47Nir Eyal:They still do better, even if it's false. Even if you have, there's nothing you can do about your situation. You still do better when you believe you can, when you have that internal locus of control. There's one exception. There's one exception. The one exception is judging other people. That when you judge other people, you want to have an external locus of control, meaning you want to believe as much as possible that you can affect change in your life. But when it comes to judging others, you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. That makes you a much happier, more compassionate person.

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42:37Talk to me about your lucky people see more opportunities research. What are the money opportunities that women and people more broadly are specifically trained not to notice?

42:49Nir Eyal:Yeah, this is great. So they did a study where they asked people to do a very simple task. The task was, please look through this newspaper. And we want you to just count how many images you see. And we're going to time you. Just count as quickly as possible how many images you see in this newspaper. One, two, three, four, five. Now, they separated people into two groups. One group were people who believed they were lucky people. That wasn't a fact. They didn't follow them around and see if they were lucky. They just asked them, do you believe you are generally lucky or generally unlucky? They separated them to two groups, lucky and unlucky people.

43:24Nir Eyal:The unlucky people to do this task took two and a half minutes. Okay, two and a half minutes to do this task. The lucky people took just 11 seconds. Why the big difference? Well, on page two of this newspaper, one of those images said in big, bold letters, there are 43 images in this newspaper. Collect your reward. The lucky people saw that image, read it, understood what it meant, got it from their chairs, went to the proctors, got their reward, and they were out 11 seconds later. The unlucky people saw the ad. We know they saw the ad because they correctly put down at the end of this exam, 43 images were in the newspaper.

44:10Nir Eyal:We know they saw the image, but they didn't see it. They didn't comprehend what was literally right under their nose. Things like that don't happen to me, right? It can't be that easy. Their beliefs that they were unlucky literally changed what they were able to observe right in front of them. And so if this happens with a simple newspaper test, you better believe it happens with all kinds of financial opportunities in our life, right? There's a business opportunity, oh, that wouldn't work for me, right? Or you don't even see it. One of the traits that defines the successful entrepreneurs, we call it entrepreneurial alertness.

44:45Nir Eyal:Entrepreneurial alertness is this trait that successful entrepreneurs have where they see$100 bills all over the place. And the rest of us think, nah, that's crazy. That would never work. We don't even see what these entrepreneurs see. And it's not our fault per se, it's that we have these beliefs that we've never questioned that prevent us from seeing what they see. What I'm hearing you tell me that I need to go in thinking I'm the luckiest person alive. Because if I go in thinking I'm the luckiest person alive, I'm going to find the loopholes in the tasks. I am going to find the things that help me navigate this easier than believing I have to significantly labor over it in order to earn it.

45:24Nir Eyal:There's definitely something to it. Or I would tell you this, I would say that you would suffer less along the way. You may see things differently, that's for sure. Because what this study demonstrated, that people who believe a certain way literally can see the world differently than others. If nothing else, you will suffer less. So for example, one thing that my family started doing is that whenever something nice happens to us, we go to the airport and there's no line. We go out for dinner and it was a great meal. I don't know, like whatever little silly things happen to us in life, we have this little silly phrase that we say, which is everything good happens to us.

46:01Nir Eyal:Everything good happens to us. Is that true? No, that's a lie. That is not true. There are some things that happen to us that are not so good. However, having that little ritual, that little awareness of this is what our family says to each other, whether or not it's true, helps us appreciate things and notice things. And it does seem like a lot of good things happen to us. Because we don't comment what most people do. Stuck in traffic again. This always happens to me, right? Just my luck. Well, then you're going to see more of it because you expect it. Whatever you're looking for, you're going to see more of.

46:36Nir Eyal:So if you believe that people are greedy and cheap and mean, you're going to observe that more. If you believe people are generally good and they're trying their best, guess what? You're going to see more of that as well. how does someone challenge their thinking without tipping into toxic positivity so toxic positivity is when we are ignoring the evidence and so remember the definition of a belief is a conviction that is open to revision based on evidence so so what we don't want is good vibes only hey the good vibes only that is not a good idea right because that is telling you to ignore the evidence or positive thinking in general.

47:17Nir Eyal:Just be an optimist all the time. That's not a good way. Even I would say, I'm going to piss some people off here, manifesting. Turns out that manifesting actually has some really bad research. Or I should say, has some very bad results from research that's been done on manifesting. And this is what we call goal-oriented thinking. I'll tell you why. There was a wonderful research study, a few of them actually, conducted by a woman by the name of Gabriela Otogen. And she connected people to blood pressure monitors as she asked them to do a visualization exercise to manifest, right? Manifesting is generally considered, you know, you're thinking about your end goals and the universe will find a way to bring it to you, right?

47:58Nir Eyal:So I'm going to manifest financial abundance. So here I am picturing myself in my mansion and my Lamborghini, blah, blah, blah. Okay. I'm going to envision myself with a beach body. And so I can envision my abs and the universe is somehow going to come over and give me my six-pack abs and my beach body. So she had people do this exercise. And it turned out that when people thought about the end goal, okay, I want the beach body, I want the big bank account, I want to get a good grade on my exam, whatever it was that they were envisioning, their bodies became more relaxed, they became less likely to actually do the things that would get them what they wanted.

48:40Nir Eyal:So for example, students who were asked to visualize getting a good grade on exam, they studied less than the students who didn't do the visualization exercise. And therefore they got worse grades than the students who did do the visualization exercise. Because it's all - So is the manifestation the belief that like, oh, I've done the work already, so I'm not going to actually go study or actually go save? That's right. There's two big problems. Actually, I would say three big problems. One is that it's kind of like, well, I put in my DoorDash order with the universe and now the universe is going to bring it to me.

49:14Nir Eyal:The universe is this cosmic slot machine that because I said I want it, it's going to give it to me. I'm sorry, the universe doesn't give a shit. It doesn't work that way. The second problem is I think that this methodology makes us suffer more. Because what it says implicitly is that I can't stop suffering until I get that thing. Only when I have the money will I be happy. Only when I find love and money. Only when I weigh this amount of money, this on the scale, will I be happy. I can't wear the bikini until then. Yep. Yeah. It's stuff outside of myself, right? It's always this stuff outside.

49:52Nir Eyal:When that changes, then I will be at peace. Then I will stop suffering. Nuh-uh. You don't have to wait. The suffering is up here, right? And then the third thing, and this is, I think, the biggest problem of the three, it doesn't prepare you for the pain. So when we do these visualization exercises and the manifesting and the vision boarding, we're thinking only about the outcomes. And then we say, okay, I'm going to go get those things. I'm going to do that stuff. And then life smacks you in the face. It's going to be difficult. You're going to have the pain. But if you haven't prepared for it, you're going to say, oh, wait a minute, this is hard.

50:24Nir Eyal:And it's not happening as soon as I wanted. And there's difficulty here. What happened? I put in my order to the universe. Why isn't the universe delivering? Because you haven't prepared for the pain. So when you look at actually what type of visualization does work, this is what Otogen called mental contrasting. Mental contrasting is when we contrast what we want with the difficulty we will have to face to overcome what it takes to get there. So for example, when you think about an athlete, You know, that visualization comes from athletes. They don't visualize the gold trophy and the medal. That's not what they're visualizing.

50:57Nir Eyal:They're not manifesting that. What they're visualizing is what will I do when it's difficult and something gets in my way, right? I'm on offense and defense is coming at me. I'm skiing down the mountain and I slip, right? That's what we have to visualize. That's what we have to prepare for is what am I going to do when it's difficult? What will I have to do physically and more importantly, psychologically? So instead of visualizing, oh, I want a big bank account, a much better thing to visualize is, oh, I go to the store and I'm going shopping and I really want that thing and I want it, want it, want it.

51:29Nir Eyal:What am I going to tell myself in that moment of desire when I'm craving something? How am I going to talk myself down so that I don't overspend and blow my budget or whatever the case might be, right? The market's tumbling. What am I going to tell myself when I want to sell out at exactly the wrong time? That's what we should prepare for. Not the outcome, but how we prepare for the psychological pain. No, that's so powerful. And it's such a powerful switch because, yeah, you start believing, okay, again, I'm manifesting this amount in my bank account or like this feeling when I'm debt free. And even I've talked about that.

52:02But I think you are right that almost the more useful exercise is, yep, when I look at my bank account and I want a shame spiral, what am I going to do instead? or I'm going and getting invited on a trip I know I can't afford. What am I going to say instead? How am I going to be in that certain mindset? Yeah, as opposed to just dreaming about how good it's going to feel. I do think that there's some helpfulness in that, but agreed, it's not the most practical option in terms of your day-to-day struggle or your day-to-day uncomfortability with this pursuit of this goal.

52:37Nir Eyal:Yeah, yeah. I think it's a good tool for someone who is ignoring what they want, right? If they're just saying like, you know, I'm putting blinders. I don't want to think about anything. It can be a good tool to say, you know, wouldn't it be amazing to have financial freedom? What would you to unshackle yourself from debt? Like imagine that. I think that's great. But that's step one. That's not the end. That's the beginning. The next step is then to say, okay, well, what's some things that keep you from that? And then we can work through that same exact process that we talked about earlier, where we're going to do that turnaround and ask ourselves for that excuse, for that reason of why I can't do that thing or why that's causing me suffering in some way, could the opposite be true, right?

53:17Nir Eyal:That when I'm out with my friends and they're ordering drinks and I feel bad saying, hey, I'm just going to get a seltzer water and that's going to feel uncomfortable because I'm trying to meet my budget, right? Like what will I tell myself and what will I tell my friends so that I can get through that situation, so I can get through that difficult choice? That's what we want to rehearse. And that comes down to our beliefs Because again, why don't we do what we know we should do? We all basically know. Who doesn't know basically that financial freedom is about, you know, making more than you spend, right?

53:47Nir Eyal:That's the basics. But to do that, the reason we don't persist is because it hurts. It's hard, right? It's difficult. It's uncomfortable. But if we can change the story about the discomfort, if we can change our beliefs about the discomfort, the discomfort doesn't have to become suffering.

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56:29One of my favorite quotes that's been going around recently is that ready is a decision, not a feeling. Talk to me more about that.

56:36Nir Eyal:Yeah, I think so. That if you wait to feel good, that's a very high bar. I think we think that the goal should be happiness. And I don't know where we picked up this notion, but I think that's a bad idea. We think about someday I'll be happy. Someday I'll be satisfied. Someday everything will be peachy keen, if only. If you think about it from an evolutionary basis, that's what I like to study. I like to study the psychology of how our brains evolved over the past 200 ,000 years. And if you think about it, being happy doesn't make sense. If there was a tribe of people 200 ,000 years ago, let's say our ancestors, who was always happy, who was blissed out, who was contented let's say there was a tribe of people that found that happiness.

57:26Nir Eyal:What would happen if our ancestors met those people? I'll tell you exactly what would have happened. They would have killed them and eaten them. Okay. That's what would have happened because being contented is not our default state. That, that, you know, thinking, striving that, oh, someday everything will be perfect. There'll be no chaos and I'll be super happy. It's not, that's not the way your brain has evolved. That it's that disquietude, it's that wanting, it's that craving that keeps us striving. It's a good thing. So in fact, I think we need to lean into that. People think that if I keep working at this, then things will be perfect.

58:03Nir Eyal:No, I think chaos is the point. That realizing that chaos means you're alive. That the struggle should be a reminder that you have this cosmic gift of being here and what a miracle it is, right? Supernatural or not, just think of the odds that you get to be here to be conscious. Think about all the things that had to go right. The probabilities are minuscule. And so I think having that perspective of, you know what, chaos means I'm alive. And it's an opportunity for me to be better. So for example, even just a simple example, you know, this morning I dropped a cup of coffee. Okay, I had my cup of coffee and I dropped the mug.

58:45Nir Eyal:and it shattered. Before that would have really pissed me off. I got to clean this mug. Now I'm going to be late and it would have annoyed me. Now I have a very simple belief that replaces all those limiting beliefs. The belief is this is an opportunity to practice patience. It's an opportunity to practice patience. Just a belief, right? So if I can do that, if I can control my suffering through these struggles, through the pain, which the pain is inevitable. Why wouldn't I take it? Why wouldn't I adopt that belief? Why would I keep telling myself these lies about who I am and how the world works that aren't necessarily serving me?

59:23Yeah. My mid-20s, I went through, we've talked about it on the show a bit, but just a moment of grief where I thought, oh, I don't think I'll ever be happy again. And I was just in a lot of pain. And I remember having the realization after months of this, when I was driving through Montana with a friend and like the sun was setting and we're driving along a river and it was so beautiful. And I remember having the realization, oh, I have felt this feeling of aliveness when I've been happy, like driving at 2 a.m. with friends in college and like seeing a beautiful sunset and going, wow, I'm alive and how cool it is to be human.

1:00:03And I realized I could have that same feeling for pain of going, wow, I can feel so deeply this pain and suffering. And it means I'm alive. And like, what a gift that is. And I'm in the midst of a really hard season for our family. And I'm just like, I'm so glad I went through that in my 20s to understand that, okay, that pain was necessary. It taught me something. It was horrible in the moment. It was awful. I truly am like, I love my life and I literally thought maybe I'll never be happy again. That was an actual thought I had. And then I got to the point where over time and over just sitting in it, I realized, yep, this pain was here to teach me that the goal is not to avoid pain because that is impossible.

1:00:54The goal is to understand that that pain can also prove to you that you're deeply, deeply human and that it is here to teach you something.

1:01:03Nir Eyal:even if that lesson is something you don't fucking want to learn right and even if i know people are thinking yeah but like but that's terrible right you're what are you lying to yourself oh it was awful it was it was not fun it was not a good time and i only realized it going through it it wasn't like in the moment i was like oh this is this is oh yield wise teacher thank you for causing me so much pain like no i was i was so pissed off doesn't mean you have to go through it again right? It just means that you're making a different story that gives you hope to persist. There's one study I have to share with you that totally blew my mind.

1:01:37Nir Eyal:And if your listeners are a little squeamish about animal studies, this might be a nice part to fast forward through, but it's a really important study. And it's not ethical, but it was done 75 years ago. So it's important to learn from. There's this biologist by the name of Kurt Richter. And Richter had this very simple question, which was how long can a rat swim in water? That was his question. So what did he do? He takes a wild rat, puts it in a cylinder of water, and he sits there and he times how long the rat can swim. Turns out a wild rat can swim for about 15 minutes before it gives up and drowns.

1:02:08Nir Eyal:Okay? Now, he has another question. He wants to figure out, can he find a way to get the rat to swim for longer? How can he make the rat more persistent? So what does he do? He takes a new group of rats, puts them in the same cylinder of water now, and this time he He stands there with a stopwatch and at the 15 minute mark, he reaches in, right? As soon as he sees the rat starting to struggle, he reaches in, he pulls out the rat, dries it off, lets it catch its breath and then plunk back into the water. It goes. Okay. I told you it was a little unethical, but that's what he did. I was going to say, well, yeah, not such a nice thing.

1:02:44Nir Eyal:You can't do these kinds of studies anymore. Okay. But anyway, it was, it was done. Poor rats. Very sorry for the rats, but it happened. So let's learn from it. Yeah. So, so he does this a few times. Okay. He conditions the rats to believe that if they persist, salvation might be possible. Something might save them. So have you heard this study before? No. Okay. So now I want you to guess. Okay. I've got a pop quiz for you. How long did the rats swim after Richter conditioned them to expect they might be saved? So they started, their natural limit was 15 minutes. Okay. How much longer did they swim after Richter did this to them?

1:03:21Nir Eyal:after he pulled them out, put them back in, put them out, put them back in, how much longer could he get them to swim for? I'm going to say six hours. Six hours. Wow. That is super, super optimistic. From 15 minutes to six hours, right? That's incredible. By the way, most people say 100 % better, maybe 15 minutes more, 30 minutes more. No, of course. I'm trying to do the thing where I know it's going to be a big number. So think about that. What is that? Like 24 times more, right? Six times four, 24 times more. Or that would be insane. Like imagine if I had some kind of intervention. If you said, you know, I could make you 24 times more persistent running a race or taking an exam or, you know, struggling with your job, whatever it might be, I can make you 24 times more persistent.

1:04:06That would be off the charts, ridiculous, right?

1:04:10Nir Eyal:Guess what, Tori? The rats didn't swim twice or three times or four times or even 24 times longer. they swam for 60 hours. What? Not 60 minutes, not six hours. Yes. I thought I was being like, I was like, it's probably crazy. And to me, a crazy number was six hours. 60. It is crazy, but the answer was even crazier. Okay, so why? What changed here, right? What changed? The rats had the same bodies. Nothing changed in their bodies. They didn't suddenly become Michael Phelps swimming rats. and they were already probably tired because they had done what 15 minutes of like intense right he did this a few times right exactly right right wow the the experiment didn't change you know the environment with which they they had this experiment right as much as we talk about environment the environment didn't change same environment same cylinder of water the only variable left we don't know we can't ask the rats but we think the only variable left is that something changed in their minds.

1:05:11Nir Eyal:That suddenly there was this switch that was flipped. And now what was always within them was unleashed, was unlocked. They started at 15 minutes, but they always had the 60 hours within them. So you see here, this rat experiment is not about rats. It's about us. We all have those 60 hours. We all have untapped potential, but we're quitting far too soon than is good for us. I was going to ask you another question, but I kind of just want to end it there. Like, that is the power of this. You're exactly right. And, you know, there's not going to be, hopefully, many situations in your life where you're having to do this 60 hours compared to 15 minutes of, like, intense labor to save your life.

1:05:58But it is proof that, like, we have more in us than we think we do. It's one of the reasons I love watching Survivor. I still watch Survivor all the time. And I think that is one of the hardest things that human beings can do is go out without sleep and without food and compete in challenges and also be not psychologically safe. And anybody you talk to who has competed on Survivor, they're like, I pushed myself past where I thought I was capable. And isn't that an incredible gift? Right.

1:06:28Nir Eyal:And it turns out that is the most important trait. that when you look at what is the most determinate factor on whether someone achieves their goals, financial security, job success, family, physical fitness, whatever it is, it's not intelligence. It's not how smart you are. It's not even what resources you bring to bear. It's not even what skills you have. It's whether or not you quit. That is the number one factor. It's persistence. Persistence doesn't guarantee success, but quitting guarantees failure. So this is the real power of beliefs. Just like those rats that suddenly a belief changed and now they persisted far longer.

1:07:05Nir Eyal:Just like with you when you were at that low point and you realized, you learned hope, you learned these new beliefs that helps you keep going. Getting to financial freedom takes a long time. It's quitting that's the problem. It's not that we don't know what to do. We basically know what to do. It's that we quit far too soon that it's good for us because we believe it's too hard. So that's the real problem. It's our beliefs that keep us from meeting our full potential. This was such an impactful episode. I know that this is one people are going to share with so many folks in their life. Like, I'm literally so excited to go out of my room and tell my partner about the rat study.

1:07:43I'm so excited to talk about that.

1:07:45Nir Eyal:It's a good one, right? I am thrilled for people to read your book. Plug away, my friend. Where can people find out more about it? I appreciate it. Yeah, so the book is called Beyond Belief. Oh, and I prepared a special thing for you. So I have this five-minute belief change journal. We didn't put it in the final edition of the book. It didn't fit. So we decided to give it out for free. You can get it at my website. I'll give you the link for the show notes. It's nearannfar.com, but near is spelled like my first name. So N-I-R-annfar.com. And the book again is Beyond Belief. Amazing. Thank you.

1:08:14Thank you for everything. My pleasure.

1:08:15Nir Eyal:Thank you. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, produced by Her First 100K. If you love the show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you're looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to herfirst100k.com slash sspod.

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