How to Manage Money in Your 30s with the Dow Janes (Best Of)

22:14And we've seen this. My favorite story from our program is this woman named Sylvia, who, she's living in New York, barely getting by, paycheck to paycheck, like just kind of struggling when it comes to money. And she's been a dancer, loves dance, and just doesn't have time for a dance in her life anymore, or can't even afford the classes to go to dance class. And in our work, she got clear on why she was budgeting, what her reason for doing it was. And she set up this, her single goal was to go on a staycation. And so she saved up enough money to be able to actually enjoy New York for a weekend.

22:55I think it might've even been a whole week and a whole week. And so she saved up money to go to the dance classes, to I think even go to a show, to have cocktails out on the town, like had designed this entire week for herself. And the best part about her sharing of this story is that she's like, every drink I had, every class I went to was guilt-free. I felt so proud of myself for having saved enough to be able to do this, that it was just part of the budget. And I could enjoy it on a level so much deeper than when you're just doing it, like crossing your fingers, it's going to work out at the end of the month.

23:31Yeah.

23:32Tori Dunlap:Or taking the vacation and realizing like you're putting it all on a credit card. Yeah. Right. She, she did this while she paid off debt and like she got out of credit card debt during this same, the same year. And she's like, I didn't think I could afford to do this even before I was paying off the debt. And now I'm doing both because she got so much clearer on how she wanted to spend her money. Right. And that pina colada tastes a little bitter when you realize that you're putting it on a credit card, right? It's like there's no full way to enjoy your vacation or enjoy your week if you're realizing that all of it is going to come back to bite you at some point.

24:11Yeah.

24:11Tori Dunlap:And I love that she planned ahead. And I think we talked with Ramit Sethi on a previous episode about he calls it like, what is your rich life? right like what is what is the version of your life that you want to live not that somebody else is telling you to live not the society wants you to live but like what makes sense for you and i love that she was very specific and it was what she you know it wasn't this you know she didn't take a month off she didn't like even have to travel anywhere it was just like no i want to do this thing and you know lorraine you were talking about budgeting right this idea that budgeting is the permission slip, right?

24:47Tori Dunlap:You do it guilt-free because you've planned ahead rather than depriving yourself of the things you really want or the things you really love. Yeah. Yeah. We have this other incredible woman in our program named Mary, who is in her 50s, has five kids, grown kids, and she and her husband have had debt for their entire lives. They've just always had a line of debt that they've been carrying with them. And her husband has been managing the finances. And she joined our program, the Million Dollar Year. She's in it for a year, goes through a lot of hard things, but stays focused, stays committed to it, and decides to take over running the family finances from her husband.

25:25So she takes it over and she starts building a budget for the household. And for the first time in their entire life, she paid off over$20 ,000 of credit card debt. I think it was like$80 ,000. I might be wrong, but my memories, I'm pretty sure she paid off$80 ,000 of debt. And they were debt free for the first time in their marriage. And just the confidence that came from her taking over and being able to do that for them. Yeah, it's phenomenal.

25:54Tori Dunlap:Well, and so you mentioned Mary, right, in her 50s. We very much talk to a millennial and then sometimes Gen Z audience. We have women who are, especially if you're listening to Lowe, in late 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. But I think for you guys, you do work with women that are slightly older than the demographic I tend to hit. What do you think are some of the differences in the way of thinking about money for those women versus maybe somebody in their 20s or early 30s? Yeah, it's well, I'm going to say one thing before I answer your question, if that's okay. When Brit and I first started, we really set out to help people in their 30s.

26:33We thought we were going to be helping a lot of people like the original Dow Jones, people who came to our in-person meetings were who were really Brit's friends. And as we started marketing our program, we were really surprised at how broad the range of women who were attracted and wanting the help were. We were like not expecting to be helping women in their forties, fifties, sixties. And I mean, we also have, have some millennial clients as well, but really, we were really most surprised by the older demographic and realized, okay, these are, these are people who are being completely ignored in the current financial industry.

27:15And if you don't already have money to invest, you go to a financial advisor, they want nothing to do with you because they don't make any money off of you. And so this demographic of women who are getting closer to the end of their working life and are not yet prepared for retirement is a population that really needs help and really wants help and has had no idea who can help them because everyone in the industry is somehow motivated to make money off of them in not such a transparent way. It's not like they charge you for a conversation. They charge you inside of the investments that you make, or they charge you inside of the life insurance plan that they sell you that you may or may not actually need.

28:02And so we've created something where we charge people for our help, but it's really upfront and it's really transparent. You're paying for that and you're getting what you're paying for. And so I would say the main mindset differences that we've seen is the level of fear that's associated with their situation. The older you are, the less time you have to course correct the situation. And so it starts to feel scarier and scarier and more and more painful. And sometimes that creates a bigger cycle of avoidance. It's like, okay, it feels bad. So I don't want to look at it or deal with it. But the more I don't look at it or deal with it, the worse it gets and the scarier it feels.

28:42Would you say any other differences, Britt? Fear is exactly what I was going to say. The other piece is urgency. Just as there's people who get into their 40s and 50s and think, I should have figured this out. All of a sudden, this isn't a luxury to know how to manage your money. It's essential because you're either in debt or on your own post-divorce or looming retirement. And so it becomes this thing that you really just have to take care of. And so I've noticed the willingness to take action and do the hard thing and really stick with it when it feels overwhelming. I think there's also this realization that it's not going to work out on its own.

29:25I think when you're younger, you can bury your head in the sand a little bit and like, oh, that's a problem for later. That's a problem for future me. Okay, well, we're talking to the future me's. And they're realizing no one else is coming to do this for them. There's no like white knight that's going to scoop them up and pay off their debt in a magical...

29:45Tori Dunlap:There's no staples. That was easy button for money. I say that multiple times in my book. Like, I wish there was just a button that you could press that was just like, debt-free button boom no those don't exist yeah so there's there's like a realization that they need to face the reality because no one else is going to do it yeah but also like kudos there's so much courage we see so much courage of the women in our program that they are willing to do it and when they get into a group that's supportive that where they can see other people in their situation who have done it, who have made that switch and course corrected their finances, it starts to feel so much more accessible.

30:26And they do it. We get to witness people have miraculous shifts in their finances. And they do it themselves. And they own that. And they're empowered in the process.

30:37Tori Dunlap:Yeah. Do you find that it's a lot of women in heteronormative relationships who their male partner was handling the money and either that partner passed away, they divorced, something shifted. Is that the vast majority of people that you work with? It's not the majority, but it is about 25%. Yeah. Which is pretty significant. Yeah. Well, and the realization too that, yeah, I mean, even in 2022, I think even if you're in your early 20s and you're in a relationship with a man, And that I think is unfortunately still like women are handling budgeting maybe and like saving and coupon clipping. But men are handling the wealth building.

31:18Tori Dunlap:They're handling the investing. They're handling the big, truly like money changing decisions. And yeah, it's what we're all trying to change or at least become more equitable. But it's so interesting that like I can see the mistakes, right, of potentially. actually I shouldn't even call them mistakes because it's conditioned, right? It's taught of women who are older. And yet we still have women now in their 20s who are getting into relationships. And it's still inequitable in terms of the management of money. Yeah, you really have to advocate for yourself. You really do. And I experienced it in my own marriage.

31:58And my husband, he's pretty woke. He works at our company. He coaches some of our members. He truly wants women to be financially empowered. And even in our relationship, there have been moments or ways where he has either had an approach to an investing decision or actually made an investing decision and not included me. And it's like, whoa, hey, what's going on? Hold the phone. Let's talk about this. Oh, interesting. And I'm thinking of a time early in our relationship, I think we were either engaged or very newly married, but we had totally combined our finances. And he made a really significant investment in a friend's investment fund.

32:45And he invested all money that he brought to the relationship. So I didn't actually have any claim to that money or anything. It was totally his money, but he invested it without talking to me about it. And I thought it was really interesting that I didn't even occur like someone whose opinion might be helpful in making that decision. Right? It was like, oh, maybe even just like, let me, you know, ask for what I think about it.

33:12Tori Dunlap:And you should be counseled. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, you know, your money, your decision for sure, but I would really love to like, get to talk about it with you. And so that was, I'm so grateful that that actually did happen early on in our relationship and that I felt confident enough to get pissed about it until we could talk about it and have those conversations and change the way we do it. But it just really, truly is ingrained in our culture that men make the investment decisions and women are frivolous spenders and need to be controlled when it comes to money. Yeah. But like, oh, she's going to the mall again i'm like it's not a good joke anymore guys like it's not well sorry i'm like a little embarrassed to say i was watching some bachelor in paradise last night oh that's fine and i watched fuck boy island have you guys seen fuck boy island no it definitely sounds like i think i'm gonna watch i do not i hate reality dating shows i like refuse to watch them i hate them and then my boyfriend was like you have to watch the show and it's he's like i'm addicted to it and i started watching it's by nick it's hosted by nicky glazer which i think is the best the best like it's the reason i was in but yeah you basically you date good guys or nice guys versus fuck boys and if you choose a fuck boy at the end the fuck boy gets to pick whether he takes the 100k or he splits it evenly 50 50 oh i'm watching i'm sold i'm solid but you know who the fuck boys are so you have all of these women choosing fuckboys like you have all of them at the end choosing fuckboys and i'm like yeah because every time wait wait the contestants know what the boys are they know about like four episodes before they're supposed to choose who the fuckboys are and who the nice guys are and yet they still choose the fuckboys because all the fuckboys obviously know how to play this game right and they're like you know what you've really changed me like i really feel a connection with you and sometimes the fuckboys do split the money to their credit and sometimes they do not And so, oh my God, it's such a fun show.

35:18Tori Dunlap:It's ridiculous. It's they're all, you know, they're all like drinking and they're making out with each other. There's three women and then like 25 men. It's insane. Anyway, Bachelor in Paradise. I can't wait to watch that. Okay. On Bachelor in Paradise last night. HBO, fuck boy. Yeah. Not sponsored. Just fantastic. There was a scene where one of the women, they were like all sharing their scars. and one of the women didn't have a pinky finger and she was like talking about how she lost her pinky and first of all she was owning it it was so badass i was like loved this scene and and then she says when i go get my nails done i get 10 off and everybody laughs because she's like missing a finger and she's talking about but the guy that she was most interested in dating goes she's a saver i just loved it he noticed that mindset so sweet i hate the bachelor that's so he's like a single dad one of the you know forlorn stories where the wife passed away and he's now there to like find love again that's so hysterical about bachelor in paradise that's so ridiculous she's a saver let's talk about speaking of like dating can we talk specifically about the importance of finances both in marriage and partnership and in divorce because many women get married and they don't go through the prenup process and they don't protect themselves when it comes to their independent finances.

36:47Tori Dunlap:So what are some ways that women can protect themselves financially before getting married or before partnering with somebody? Yeah. Yeah. So we mostly work with people on the other side. We are not at all giving recommendations as people are going into marriage. It's not our expertise place. So I don't know a ton on this topic, but I've listened to a little bit about prenuptials and the importance of basically, there's this, there's this idea when people get married, they think they're, you know, they have all the fantasy of how it's going to work out. And they don't, it's just not fun to think about the potential of it not going well.

37:27And so it's a place where people don't actually want to dig in. But they don't realize is that they're essentially signing a prenup with whatever state they're getting married in. And a lot of people don't look into what the rules are. And so it's either like you take this boilerplate prenuptial that the state of California or the state of Illinois or the state of Texas is giving you, or you write your own. And it's an act, doing a prenuptial, I would put it this way, instead of it being like expecting the worst case, it's a first act for the woman to take a place... What am I trying to say? Take a stand of confidence and ownership of their future of, hey, I'm going to have a say in our financial decisions starting right now.

38:15And here are my expectations. And I mean, people can get creative and say like, if you cheat on me, you give me all your money. There's like things you can write in that really, you know, set yourself up for the future you want to have.

38:28Tori Dunlap:Yeah, no. And I, I so appreciate you bringing that up. I think it was Aaron Lowry, who's broke millennial, who says like, if you don't make a prenup, the state makes one for you, right? Like, like, if you don't, if you don't decide what you want, the, the state laws have already decided for you. So I think there is all of this like weird shame and like, yeah, There's like, I don't want this relationship to fail. And me signing a prenup means that I think it's destined to fail. And I'm like, I wouldn't enter a business decision with somebody without a contract. And that isn't because I think that eventually we're going to hate each other and need to separate assets or whatever.

39:06Tori Dunlap:But I wouldn't enter any sort of business deal without a contract. And yes, marriage, you hope, is full of love. But it's also a legally binding agreement. And so if I'm going to enter this legally binding agreement with somebody, especially the person who I love and respect, I want to make sure that both of us are taken care of and that both of us have a very distinct plan of what's going to happen as opposed to letting the state government or the state laws decide what that looks like for us. Yeah. And I mean, with a 50 % chance of divorce, it's just the smartest thing to do. Just protect yourself.

39:43Tori Dunlap:Right. Right. And it's even too, I think, the opening conversations about money in general. And one thing I very much talk about, personal finance is personal. But one thing I refuse to counsel women on, a lot of people are like, I'm going to fully combine my finances. And I 100 % disagree with that. You need some of your own separate money. Even if it's just a small emergency fund and you have joint accounts, I think the ideal for me is that you have separate accounts and then a joint account for your shared expenses. But I've seen so many women get done really dirty because they don't have any sort of money to their name.

40:22Tori Dunlap:And so you need some sort of money on the side. Yeah, it's tough. It's a tricky thing to navigate. It really is. And I think before even getting to the level of marriage, if you're just dating someone and you're starting to think about shared finances and combined finances, I think the best thing you can do to protect yourself in the beginning is try and get transparency. Understand what the other person's financial situation is. Know who you're dating from a financial perspective. And that doesn't mean you have to make any decisions about the relationship based on that person's financial reality, but you should know what it is.

41:02Because if you're considering having a future with this person, you're also considering having a future with their finances. And then when it comes to actually combining finances, Britt and I, we put together a workshop in our program to help people navigate this because it is so tricky. And there's like a lot of different aspects to finances. There's how much you earn. There's how much of what you earn goes towards shared expenses, goes towards individual expenses. There's who's actually responsible for keeping a budget or managing the money. Who's responsible for making spending decisions? Who's responsible for paying bills?

41:35like the actual work that is involved on managing your finances. And then there's also decision rights and who gets to make those choices. And are they consensus decisions? Are they unilateral decisions? Is there a certain dollar amount that if you're going to spend more than this, now you need to have a conversation, like how you do it. There's a lot of nuance to it. And in our work with women, we really, there are times where we will be prescriptive and say, this is how we suggest doing it. And then there's other times, I would say actually majority of the times where we really try to empower and inform people to make their own decisions.

42:11Me as well. Yeah. Yeah. Here's the lay of the land. Here's what I personally do. Here's what Brit personally does. And you choose for yourself. And here are some of the pros and cons of the different options. And when it comes to managing money in partnership, Brit and I do it totally differently. like my husband and I we have 100 combined finances was that like really well thought out no I mean what happened as I moved from Canada to the U.S. and I didn't have any bank accounts or anything in the U.S. and I met with I can still like remember the moment where I'm in the kitchen with my husband and his father-in-law who's a financial advisor who's looked at you know a lot of people's money situations for a long time he's in a very good stable marriage and he says combine your finances.

42:57Every marriage I've ever looked at where they didn't have combined finances, it wasn't a good marriage. That was his perspective on it. And so my husband just added me to all of his accounts. And I didn't bring a lot of money to the table. So for the person who that was risky for, it was riskier for him than it was for me. But it also wasn't a very good way to navigate building credit and things like that in the US, which I didn't know I needed to do. And then Britt's on the other end of the spectrum where her and her husband are mostly separate finances and they share expenses. And it works really well for them.

43:31And what I'm doing works really well for me. But I also know I'm more at risk based on the situation that I'm in.

43:41Tori Dunlap:I cannot tell you how stressful it is sometimes to run a small business. I think that small business owners listening, you understand. Everyone else, Cut us some slack. It is hard out here. There is so much to think about between payroll and HR taxes, tax filing, direct deposits, health benefits. There's so many things that are really, really complicated about running a business. But Gusto has made it so easy for us. We have used Gusto for four or five years. And then I was using them when I was a nine to five employee on the other side. And they're truly so helpful. Gusto is online payroll and benefit software built for small businesses.

44:21Tori Dunlap:It's all in one, remote friendly, and incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. It's really quick and simple to switch to Gusto. You can just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast. And you get direct access to certified HR experts to support you throughout any tough HR situation. Try Gusto today at gusto.com slash ffpod and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash ffpod. One more time, gusto.com slash ffpod. One thing nobody tells you about running a business, it's not the big decisions that exhaust you.

44:56Tori Dunlap:It's all the tiny pieces of information you're constantly trying to hold on to. A conversation with a client, feedback from your team, an idea that comes up during a strategy session, the next step you promised to follow up on. Individually, none of those things feel like a lot, but together they're exhausting. For years, I thought I just needed a better memory. Turns out I needed a better system. That's why I've been using the Plod no-pin. During our leadership retreats at Her First Hunter K, we spent entire days talking about the future of the business. And instead of trying to write everything down while also participating in the conversation, Plod captures it for me with everyone's consent.

45:29Tori Dunlap:Afterwards, I get summaries, action items, searchable transcripts, and the ability to ask questions about past conversations and get answers back in seconds. No more digging through notebooks, no more searching Slack, no more wondering, wait, what did we decide? Honestly, it's one of those tools that truly makes me feel like I have a better operating system for my business. If you've been curious about it, this is probably the best time to try it. Go to plaud.ai slash ffpod for 10 % off. That's p-l-a-u-d dot a-i slash ffpod.

46:01Tori Dunlap:And I have so much empathy and compassion for anybody, regardless of the situation. I want to be clear on that. For me, I've just, what I've seen is like, there are so many people who are entering marriages and they believe, oh, if I have my separate money, that means I don't trust my partner. And that's not it at all. Like, that's not it at all. And that's the narrative, I think, that, yeah, has been pushed. I think of like Dave Ramsey, like all the time, right? And as he's like, you need fully combined finances. And if you're separating your money, it's because you don't trust and you don't have a good relationship and i'm like no i don't think that's it at all in the same way that i think a lot of people are successful fully combining their finances you just to your point you take on more risk you take on more risk and unfortunately the risk in a heteronormative relationship tends to fall on on the woman like that's i think yeah what ends up totally it's not lost on me that that advice that i've heard both from my father-in-law and from dave ramsey is like coming from older white men, right?

46:57Patriarchal. Yeah.

46:59Tori Dunlap:Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. So can we break down by either like decade or by your progression through your financial life, what sort of goals that women should have? If someone's like in listening right now and they feel behind because they haven't started investing yet, they have debt. Like what can you share with them? For that person, you're doing the right thing. Don't invest until you've cleared your debt. So we have a really specific roadmap for people to follow that you have to move up the roadmap. And when it comes to personal finance, it's really important to do things in the right order. Because if you do things out of order, you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

47:38You're basically spending money to try to make money, but it's not going to work out. So the way to do it is you start at the bottom of our pyramid with spending less than you make each month. So that means that you're taking home more than you're spending. And most people actually don't even know that number. They don't know if they are saving money each month. So that's the first thing is to get really clear on knowing, are you able to save money each month? If you're able to save money, then you can move up the roadmap to the next step, which is paying off high interest rate debt. And high interest rate debt is anything with an interest rate over 7%.

48:14So most credit cards, some personal loans, some car loans. That's the most important piece because that is actually costing you more than anything else with a 20 % interest rate, 30 % interest rate. Sometimes you're never, you're not going to make that up by investing. So that is actually the most expensive piece in your financial life. And you have to pay that off first. then you want to save up an emergency fund and for that it's usually three to six months of expenses if you're if you have like a great backup plan you could save less if you're on your own and don't really have a backup plan you maybe want to save more and the reason that we have you save an emergency plan before you start investing is so you can invest for the long term five plus years being long term and when people this is the mistake that most people make is they start investing when they don't have an emergency fund.

49:02And so then when the market goes down and they get in a car accident and they have to pull their money out of their investments, and that's when you lose money from investing. So we really emphasize having your emergency fund before you start investing. It's okay to wait. You're not ready to invest. That's okay. That's a good thing. It means you're doing things in the right order. Save your emergency fund first. Then you're ready to invest and start thinking about long-term retirement, future planning, and you can invest at that point pretty safely and securely. A lot of people have this fear that investing is scary.

49:36But when you do it in this order, it doesn't have to be scary at all.

49:40Tori Dunlap:Yeah. So this is the interesting part about personal finance is like, Britt, I am very much like you need an emergency fund first before you start paying off debt. Like I have a whole... What I call the financial game plan is very similar to your guys' I think pyramid is like we have that in episode five. And it's like, I am like, you do not start paying off debt, you do not start investing. Nothing happens until you have that emergency fund. And how much, what would you say? Three months of living expenses. Before paying off debt. Yeah. Yeah. If people are like, they have a ton of debt and it's really giving them a lot of anxiety, I'll be okay with like one month of living expenses.

50:16Tori Dunlap:But like, I truly, especially after pandemic, I'm just like, I think you need an emergency fund that's going to sustain you for a little bit of time before you start paying off debt. Just because, yeah, we're in the wild, wild west at this point in the last two years. Absolutely unprecedented. And then I think a lot of people who didn't have any sort of savings... And I want to be clear. $1 ,000 one month, whatever you have is better than nothing in savings. But yeah, I'm very much of like, I don't want you going into more debt trying to pay for an emergency. And then I find that my clients, they sleep better at night knowing that they have something in the bank should something happen.

50:57Tori Dunlap:But yeah, this is personal finance. It's so interesting. Well, and I think we could debate this. And it's interesting because there's places where we agree with you. Actually, it's like we left out the step of have at least$1 ,000 that you're saving on the side because you don't want to go further into debt. and the way I've thought about it is this debt is costing you so much that if you have three months of emergencies yeah sitting in your savings you could right and once you free up that debt in theory you have more money to contribute to a savings account yeah exactly or you could you know the ideal is we're keeping people from going back into debt and so if they have this the worst case is they are paying off their debt and they have to start using their credit cards again.

51:41And the reason that... Actually, let me back up for a second. One of the reasons that we have it this way is because of the mindset piece of becoming debt-free. So if you can take what you have sitting in your three-month emergency fund and actually pay off that last credit card and become debt-free with a$7 ,000 payment, and then you're starting from zero, you can see yourself as someone who is debt free. And going forward, you're going to make different decisions. And so really getting people into that place of believing, you know, I can be debt free, I can start saving. That's another reason we have it that way.

52:19Tori Dunlap:Well, and it might feel potentially more of a win to become debt free than it does to save a three month emergency fund. Right? Yeah, it feels like a success. Right? Yeah. I mean, ultimately, the best plan is the plan you actually follow, right? It's like, If anyone is listening and they're like, oh, I definitely want to pay off my debt first or no, I want my emergency fund savings first. If you have a strong feeling like that, trust it and do it in that order. We've just seen a lot of our clients come to us with$20 ,000 in credit card debt and $50 ,000 in savings. And we're like, hey, this doesn't make any sense.

52:53We actually want to use that money to pay off the debt because that is preventing you from investing successfully. And it can feel really scary to let go of that money in savings. There's a lot of feelings of safety attached to it.

53:06Tori Dunlap:And I think for me and our audience,$50 ,000 in savings is a crazy amount of money. That's not a thing, right? So they're just excited to get a couple thousand in savings or maybe 10 ,000 in savings. So it's also a different potentially demographic or financial situation. It's a lot easier if somebody has a lot in savings to be like, you should be paying off the debt that you have and then you still have$20 ,000 left over. for I think the majority of people in my audience, that's just not the reality. The reality is they're just trying to save up to that$1 ,000 or three months of living expenses.

53:38Tori Dunlap:So yeah, this is the interesting part about personal finance. I'm also just, as everybody knows, I'm just so anti-Dave Ramsey. And I think his focus on just getting out of debt at all costs just exhausts me. And of course, I know that you guys are value-based spending, sustainable, debt payoff, all of those things. But I think everybody just has this default state of like, this debt has to be gone no matter what. And I'm like, I think you need a little bit in savings to build yourself up and give yourself that financial foundation and then work to pay off your debt. Yeah, we teach a lot about debt in our program, actually, because there is good debt and bad debt, right?

54:17Like not all debt is created equal.

54:19Tori Dunlap:Well, talk to me about that. Okay, so bad debt is debt that you have incurred. And the benefit that you realize from the debt is already gone. It's already used up and yet you are still paying for the debt. Yeah. So it's like consumer purchases. So you bought a new TV and now you've got the new TV, but it's gone down in value since you bought it and you are still paying for it now. That's bad debt. And if it has an interest rate, which we kind of demark the interest rate into high and low interest when it's over 7%, because that's an average return you're going to get, right? So any interest that's up over that amount means it doesn't make any financial sense for you to invest for your future.

55:00If you are carrying that debt, it is more expensive. You'll be losing money by investing. And so good debt, it can be debt that you have used strategically, which is why in the business world, they refer to debt as leverage. What's leverage? It's like a lever. You can do a little bit and you can get an outsized result from it. So something like debt, we can use strategically to buy assets, like real estate, for example, and you can buy a lot more than you could if you didn't have access to the debt financing. And so we teach about good debt and bad debt because when debt is used properly, it can really help you build wealth.

55:42When debt is used improperly, then it works against you and it can really prevent you from building wealth. And that mindset you were talking about Tori of people like come and have this kind of panicked reaction about their debt and feel like I have to get out of it as fast as possible. And I'm like, my life is not okay until I'm out of this debt. We differentiate between what we call sprint debt and marathon debt. And some debt is sprint debt. Like it is harming your ability to build wealth and protect future you by continuing to carry that debt. So if you're tolerating that debt, it would be better to take a little sprint and make it a focused effort and clear it.

56:22And then there's debt that we call marathon debt, which let's say student loan debt, for example, we can consider that marathon debt depending on your interest rates, because that's an investment that you made to get an education that hopefully increased your earning potential for the rest of your life. And so if you are actually working the career that you use the debt for to finance that education, that's benefiting you over the long term of your life. And it's okay to pay that debt down over the long term of your life. All of that being said, like I said earlier, the best plan is the plan you will actually follow.

57:00And people have different relationships to debt. For some people, it just feels like handcuffs. They're not interested in having debt. And other people, they can see debt as an instrument or as a tool that they can use. And this is another place where Britt and I have really different relationships to debt. Like Britt bought her house in cash. I just refinanced, you know, before interest rates went up because I was like, I'm gonna get that money at 2%. I'm gonna invest it at 7%. Hot damn, I just made 5%. You know, and like, it doesn't phase me at all. I'm very comfortable with it when it's used strategically.

57:33And so that's just for people to decide and explore. But that immediate reaction that debt is bad, you know, certain types of debt are bad for your financial health and certain types of debt can be used positively for your financial health. Totally.

57:48Tori Dunlap:So we were talking about the mindset of money and the emotions and the psychology. You guys call it facts versus feelings. Can you explain what you mean? Yeah. So one of the things we say is that you can't sort through money financially until you've seen it emotionally. And there's a lot of feelings that are holding people back from actually taking action. So this is a big one that comes up with debt, with the identity around having debt. So a feeling is, I am unworthy because I have credit card debt, or I'm a bad person, or I'm dumb because I have credit card debt. And so really dropping into this shame space of really making it about you and who you are.

58:30So that's a money feeling. A money fact is I have$20 ,000 of credit card debt. I also wasn't given a financial education in high school. I also never learned how to use a credit card when I was given one on my college campus. Those are facts. It doesn't mean anything about you. And now you can take action to changing that situation if you want. And so it's really stepping out of any feelings of shame or making it about you to just being the situation on the table, seeing it as something separate from yourself. There's this debt that I have, and now I'm going to clear it. Yeah.

59:04Tori Dunlap:There's so many similarities to how we teach money. Because for us over here, again, when we were writing the book, when I was writing the book, it was all about What are the narratives that you're believing about money? So almost every chapter we spend debunking the narrative. So yeah, if I have debt, I'm a bad person. Oh, people who have money are bad people. Money can't buy you happiness. Investing is complicated. Investing is intimidating. Investing is risky. All of the narratives you were told about money versus what is the actual, the reality of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And the money feelings also come up in some of the specifics of dealing with your money.

59:44So we might have a money feeling like I'm drowning in debt. And you'll know that you're using a feeling if it's like, if you're not actually saying real numbers and you're talking about a physical sensation, like this debt is weighing me down or holding me back or I'm drowning in it. Okay. We're using language that creates strong emotions. Just think about those words, drowning, being held down. Like those are real survival, scary situations versus I have$6 ,000 of debt or my monthly minimum is$600 and I only have$400. Those are facts. Those are things we can work with. It's really hard to work with like feelings that are related to death or being like restricted, imprisoned, you know, so just notice that language and see, okay, how can I translate this into an actual just fact-based statement that isn't as scary to start working with.

1:00:43Tori Dunlap:Well, and your energy coach flag must pop up too, where you're having very physical sensations, right? Weighing me down, drowning, holding me back, right? These are all very physical manifestations in your body of what it feels like to be in debt. And that, as we all know, has severe impacts on your physical health, your mental health, the way you carry yourself in the world, like literally physically, if you feel these like, yeah, physical manifestations of money. Yeah, the language we use matters, right? Like, words have an emotional and an energetic weight to them. And a lot of the words that we use around money in the negative, especially, often have to do with the physical body, but are just like very intense.

1:01:32Even if you think about someone saying, oh, it cost me an arm and a leg. Imagine that losing an arm and a leg to get what you whatever it was you bought. It's like, really, really warped ways of talking about dollars and cents.

1:01:48Tori Dunlap:Yeah. Yeah. You're so right.

1:01:54Tori Dunlap:Being a small business owner, I think is the hardest thing. and it's only getting harder every single day. The costs keep increasing. Everything just feels so stressful right now. And this is why NetSuite is an incredible tool for small business owners. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, CRM into one single source of truth. And it's trusted by over 43 ,000 customers. And NetSuite Next is the next huge leap in how business gets done. It automatically surfaces custom insights throughout your day. It works alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work.

1:02:29Tori Dunlap:And if you have a question, you can just ask and it'll help come up with the answer for you. NetSuite is customized for a variety of industries. So it supports the way that your business truly works. And it's one of those things I'm so excited to continue investing in as we grow HFK and as we continue solving new problems in our business. For the first time ever, you can try NetSuite Next for free. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to netsuite.ai.ffpod. Built for every industry, ready for every boardroom, netsuite.ai.ffpod. One thing nobody tells you about running a business, it's not the big decisions that exhaust you.

1:03:10Tori Dunlap:It's all the tiny pieces of information you're constantly trying to hold on to. A conversation with a client, feedback from your team, an idea that comes up during in a strategy session, the next step you promised to follow up on. Individually, none of those things feel like a lot, but together they're exhausting. For years, I thought I just needed a better memory. Turns out I needed a better system. That's why I've been using the PLOD no-pin. During our leadership retreats at Her First Hunter K, we spent entire days talking about the future of the business. And instead of trying to write everything down while also participating in the conversation, PLOD captures it for me with everyone's consent.

1:03:44Tori Dunlap:Afterwards, I get summaries, action items, searchable transcripts, and the ability to ask questions about past conversations and get answers back in seconds. No more digging through notebooks, no more searching Slack, no more wondering, wait, what did we decide? Honestly, it's one of those tools that truly makes me feel like I have a better operating system for my business. If you've been curious about it, this is probably the best time to try it. Go to plaud.ai slash ffpod for 10 % off. That's p-l-a-u-d dot a-i slash ffpod.

1:04:15Tori Dunlap:so one of my last questions for you all what do you hope dow james grows into in the coming years what is the goal for you both i'm so excited to listen to french answer for this question she's like let me take notes about the future of our company so dow james is a three-year-old business. And yet we have grown really quickly in those three years and have really seen what a need there is for education, for community, for affordable coaching when it comes to money. And we have built our business. We've been really lean. It's basically been Laurie-Anne at the helm for... Laurie-Anne and me? It's been me and Laurie-Anne at the helm doing most of it for three years.

1:05:05And we have independent contractors here and there. We have a lot of agencies helping us. And the next phase of Dow Janes is really building out our company. So whether that's a new app that we're developing, whether it is expanding our product line to really build financial freedom and create more choice for women, potentially an ethical investing line of helping people create values aligned investments. There's a lot of different directions we could go. We've been really focused on the million dollar year and it is incredible for getting results. And so that will continue to remain our main foundational program for getting people from either debt or minimal savings to being ready to invest.

1:05:49And then basically from there, what happens after the million dollar year is what we'll be building out next. Yeah, we're also pretty excited to be a business that's doing business differently. So treating our employees really well, doing profit sharing, having compensation that feels, lets people live a really good life. You know, that's what we're, I think either, no, someone else I was listening to, but yeah, kind of like an anti-capitalist. We're anti-capitalist capitalists, you know, wanting to, we're in business. We love business. We're making money. We're helping other people make money.

1:06:22And yet wanting to create a better world with that.

1:06:26Tori Dunlap:Totally. Amazing. Lorianne, anything to add? Yeah, I think, I think on the notion of doing business differently, it's been really amazing to get to build this company with my best friend. Britt and I have been best friends for a decade. And there's just so much that's been available to us through sisterhood and doing this together and our love for one another and wanting this to be not only a great company that's out there having a great impact in the world, but something that's really great for each of us in our lives and getting to add that into the filtering decision. and you know we thought early on in starting the company do we want to go raise capital do we want to get vc money so we can like go you know lightning fast and we don't you know we want to go as fast as we can while still loving our lives and in building the company we've always said we want to build something that we could sell if we want to but we want to run it in a way that we're never going to want to sell it.

1:07:27And, you know, getting to do that and really practice that and live at a super high level of integrity as people who are doing well by doing good in the world. It's just like, it's a really fun challenge to take on. And, you know, Britt went to Harvard Business School. I studied business in her undergrad. And so we have the imprint of how business has always been done. And now getting to take it into our own hands and really intentionally create our culture and our systems and our decisions. And we're learning what is the decision-making criteria if it's not profit at all costs? What are those ways that we decide?

1:08:10So it's a really fun challenge to take on in terms of a company level and goals. What do we want to be. We want to be big. We want to help as many people as we can. And we don't know what that number is yet. We know we haven't hit it. We feel like we're just getting started and we're really excited to keep going.

1:08:30Tori Dunlap:Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you? DowJanes.com is where you can start. And then all of our links are from there. We have a pretty great Instagram influence at Dow.Janes. And then our YouTube channel is really helpful. Just free educational videos that we drop each week. So find us on YouTube. We're also on Pinterest, TikTok. Amazing. Thank you again to Britt and Lorianne for joining us. We love working with other women and women-focused companies in the personal finance space. So make sure to check them out and support them. We've linked all of their socials and their offerings and their advice in our show notes.

1:09:06Tori Dunlap:You can go to financialfeministpodcast.com. If you're loving these episodes, you know what to do. Review, tag us on social, share with friends and family. This podcast is 100 % free resource to you and we appreciate your support. It allows us to be able to give you this advice and guidance and we just appreciate you being here. Thanks for joining us at Financial Feminist yet again and we'll catch you later. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.

1:09:36Tori Dunlap:If you're confused about your personal finances and you're wondering where to start, Go to herfirst100k.com slash quiz for a free personalized money plan. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant. Research by Sarah Shortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda LeFew. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K. Kaitlin Sprinkle, Masha Bakmikyeva, Sasha Bonar, Ray Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Daryl Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos Megan Walker and Jess Hawks promotional graphics by Mary Stratton photography by Sarah Wolfe and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound a huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting our show

1:10:31Class is now in session and the UPS store is here to help you ace arriving on campus Our certified packing experts can pack everything you need, from desktops to decor.

1:10:43Tori Dunlap:Plus, when you pack and ship with us, you get our exclusive pack and ship guarantee. Your items arrive safe or your money back. Restrictions and limitations apply. To get a 20 % off packing coupon and for full details, visit the upsstore.com slash packing. Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer? May I suggest your big wireless bill? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint's story is better. Every plan,$15 a month, even unlimited.

1:11:18That's it. Happy ending. Zero tears. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. See terms.