1,114 Dan Burns, retro World Cup controversy & the most unsatisfying noise of the tournament

22:14Charlie Eccleshare:or whichever one had the big glasses on all the time. Yeah, or it was a bit kind of Chilean miner-esque as well, as in getting brought out of the mineshaft into daylight for the first time. Yeah, it does have the vibe of a competition winner, all of it. He doesn't really seem to know what to do with himself because he's not in the mix, as it were, which is just amazing. There was one as well, just an Instagram story yesterday of just some bad weather and just him commenting underneath it, stormy skies ahead for England. He's just like, I guess, I suppose. are these guys relevant I was thinking how do you think because deep down he will think this England win is about him how do you think if he were to sort of make it about him what would be the link like would it be a sort of like you know Sky put English football on the map and look where English football is now or would he go a particular player I mean we should address the fact that he's already pivoted from Qatar being his guys to England being his guys so he's already made that big step so he's on an even keel now um sort of patriotism wise but yeah i think yeah you might be a sky laid the foundations for what i mean it's no coincidence is it really that's uh 34 years later is there is there some kind of 86 connection 86 must have been quite a seminal event for him yeah exactly yeah really this is for my great mate yeah really really should have had his moment at the azteca yeah Peter Reid, of course, one of the most high-profile victims of the altitude of the Azteca Stadium back in 1986.

23:44Charlie Eccleshare:And so much was, of course, made of the altitude this time around, Jake. The BBC's pre-match coverage ended up with a baffling graph that they produced on screen of Wembley Stadium at 44 metres, the Hawthorns at 168 metres, Bed Nevis at 1 ,345. Taller than I actually thought. maybe we could have trained up there and then of course the azteca right up there at 2240 but just to help matters a tower of dan burns 1114 dan burns couldn't fit them all so they only did about 12 all standing on top of each other to make the aztec high i felt that bit was beneath the bbc to be honest yeah that is um that's kind of quite vaguely surreal stuff and also putting it in terms that like who's who's our toy is the biggest guy on our team who's like who's our big lad i'm I'm surprised it didn't go with Crouchy.

24:35I guess in a way it's kind of slightly more obscure by going with Dan Byrne. Crouchy's the obvious option there of a tall footballer.

24:41Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. I don't know. There's only about an inch or two in it as well. So it would be slightly fewer Peter Crouches. Amid the sort of frenetic first half, Charlie, I'd say the biggest cultural moment for me was a moment of pure Henry Wintergeddon when he dropped a double Wintarian turn of phrase. This is what he tweeted. Worth staying up for? Middle of the night? England in dreamland altitude problems no chance England hitting the heights in the Azteca to go for the double set up is superb yeah I guess it was such an open goal wasn't it with the I mean a bit like with John Motsen of the 2002 World Cup how he could never get over the obsession with breakfast and that sort of with the sort of time difference this was always going to be an open goal for him altitude problem incidentally a a sort of pun or altitude and attitude I remember being like six years old and going on a and virgin giving out a thing being like you got altitude to like in a kid's pack and it was like that that's how long that crap punt has been going for i mean this was 30 years ago it was crap then it's crap well i mean in terms of reachable cultural references jake um when things got a little bit hairy in the second half with england down to 10 men i did wonder if guy mowbray and or alan sheer would reach for a reference to the alamo and i thought would this be the one night where you probably shouldn't shouldn't evoke the alamo yeah i think that um yeah that that that's probably a kind of verging on cultural insensitivity there i was i was waiting for it for sure it's one of my dad's favorites it's it's like the alamo it's like the alamo like it that's a live or on tv so i was kind of i was waiting to ticket off i think it did qualify as well yeah because the the nature of the rear guard action which having worked is genius but like if it hadn't literally being like we're just going to have five at the back we're just going to boot it back to you yeah you can come at us like that's very alamo ish i think maybe the peak alamo moment charlie was when dan burn blocked a bicycle kick like full full dedication didn't didn't even go down pretend injured because he knew he'd get an easy free kick with the high boot as well probably went for it and and that's what you get that's what you bring dan burn on for right for this particular moment i mean dan burt yeah he is perfect for this not just because of you know how used to altitude he is at that height according to that bbc graphic but you know he's like he's great vibes he's a proper good english lad isn't he like he must have fucking loved that just after england went three one up jake um i realized you I was too Nescafe gold blends deep by that point.

27:19Charlie Eccleshare:But I thought I was hallucinating when the referee sort of gave the kickoff back to England after Mexico had fucked it up. And I was like, what on earth has happened? My first thought was, is this one of these new FIFA rules that you've got five seconds to take the kickoff or the referee would just give it to the other team? I had no idea what happened. What emerged was Mexico just dribbled the kickoff. They completely forgot what to do. That's it, we've cracked them. It's not fighting amongst themselves. They have forgotten how to play football at the most fundamental level. this is it it was like it's like four in the morning basically everyone's a bit knackered you're you're having an ayahuasca like experience because you're first nescafe gold and like loads of stuff kept happening and and also like i was watching it at home on my own my wife didn't stay up for it so there's lots of stuff where i wanted to like turn i was doing lots of group chat like what's going on what's happening there and that was definitely one of them i know the the sound I made during the game, Charlie, was capped at doing one big clap when Kane converted the penalty for 3-1.

28:16Charlie Eccleshare:That's the amount of noise I could make in my tiny house. But when Mexico sort of dribbled that kick-off, Charlie, I thought, is this Zaire 1974 or whatever again? As the president said, if you consider 4th... There's going to be a really quite sobering reality to this thing we're laughing about. So, yeah, tremendous scenes as this game sort of strangled its way to a conclusion and England safely through eventually. Here's Harry Kane afterwards, producing a voice that I don't think anybody could ever replicate ever again. It's a crazy game. We had to fight. We had to find something. Yeah, I've just been sitting in there.

28:56I can't really talk.

28:57Charlie Eccleshare:But yeah, all the occasion, the team, everything against us, we found a way. Yeah, I thought I got to the ball first. it was one of those days the ref gave an orchestra Charlie what octave is that what possible frequency is that yeah it is the only ones I can think of there's one that went viral I think when Lacazette was at Lyon it sounded like he'd taken loads of helium his voice was like crazily high I don't know what had happened to him he must have lost his voice as well maybe there was a Giroud one as well but yeah that's crazy Jake it's like he's harmonizing with himself Yeah It's like he's being layered by Bon Iver Like he's just numerous Harry Cain's This is also like This is morning after the wedding stuff as well Oh I'm tired of it It's just like I saw that this morning And I was like how has he Got that bad from that little singing They've done one version of Wonderball He must have really been going A I guess he's been shouting the whole rest of the time Over that din he was particularly animated during the game Charlie he was really leading from the front emotionally though we had we saw more wide-eyed Harry Kane than I've ever seen in any game sort of really confronting the referee right to the limit of getting a yellow um not the sort of Kane we're used to really he just keeps evolving yeah keeps developing I mean he's uh yeah just becoming like the complete the complete player though I did think he I think it was the pen it was either the penalty or the red card I think it was the penalty he gave away and he is you can sort of see him just a little bit in the background and he's quite resigned in some ways like i think other players would be going more at the ref for that one yeah i mean instinctively for that penalty a lot of onlookers especially alan shearer on co-coms jake were like that that's not a penalty that that's too soft but knowing full well in the var era that one it will be checked and two they know they're wrong they know it's a penalty and then up up popped darren can with yes yes that's a penalty i'm afraid it's like yeah sorry and i've got to the point now with darren can is I'm reassured either way by having the ultimate truth dealt to me by Darren Kan.

31:09Yeah, bad night for Daz Kan on the group chats. Catching a lot of strays just from giving accurate assessments of refereeing decisions. People are just angry at it. The Shearer one for the penalty I really loved because it was pure wish fulfilment. Him being like, that's not a penalty, that is not enough there for me. It's obviously a penalty and it's obviously going to get given and you know that but you're just hoping by saying it, it might end up being true.

31:34Charlie Eccleshare:And, you know, it still amazes me, Charlie. I mean, I realise it was a very stressful situation, so, you know, convention can still go out the window. But it still amazes me that, you know, the referee's gone to the screen. Like, he's looking at it. He's coming back and making the VR gesture. He's going to give the penalty. There's no suspense. Trust me. Make your peace with it now, Shearer. Yeah, I think it was Graham Scott who was, like, the only one to not... Or he was the first, anyway. It's like, you know what's happening. And also yesterday, they were kind of like, that referee had not given a one in the France game.

32:07That's true, to be fair. Against Mbappe. And they were using that, and that was a stonewall pen. It was like genuinely unbelievable he didn't give the pen. And they were using that as evidence he might not give it again. And it's like, no, no, no. He will have been taken aside after that game. He'll have been like, what the fuck are you doing? Have you ever played a stunt like this again? He was giving it basically before he went over there. It was done, yeah.

32:28Charlie Eccleshare:We know this referee's a maverick. He's the one who does the do you fancy a pint gesture for the hydration break? He did it again last night. It's like, ah, that's the guy. This is who we've got for such a night of England's history. Yeah, I'm not saying the whole thing got overblown at the end, Charlie. BBC's social headline just afterwards, England breached the Azteca fortress. Crossed swords emoji. As listener Ismail suggests, is this the most Gary Weaver coded England game of all time? Great shout. Yeah, I mean, I imagine Gary Weaver, wherever he was watching this, was saying all these things out loud to whoever was with him.

33:05Charlie Eccleshare:Germany won England 5 right up there as a Weaverdom game, I think, Jake, given that they went into the sort of enemy territory historically, let's say, and came away with a victory. Definitely. Anywhere where you can plant your flag is Weaver country, so to speak. I mean, also, like, got to have some kind of Patreon service where I can pay to have Gary Weaver commentate on these games in full and me to watch them afterwards. I want that to be my memory of it. I would 100 % pay for that, Gary, if you're listening. Yeah, there should be another coloured button on the remote to press for Gary Weaver rather than red, green, yellow or blue.

33:39Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, the Weaver button. The only thing I would say about that Germany game, though, is it was, and I think they never lost at home as well. They had some crazy record. But because it got to 5-1, it got a bit silly and it felt less of a breaching. It felt like easier to breach somehow, that their security were having a day off and they were like, yeah, fill your boots, lads. Whereas this was so breachy because of, you know, It's got to be more pillaging, isn't it? It's got to be more pillaging going on. Yeah, yeah. I agree with you. There were fears before the game, Jake, that England's team just looked a little bit weird to me.

34:13Charlie Eccleshare:Not the sort of team we envisage being, you know, at the peak of their powers to win England a major tournament. But in a roundabout way, especially given the red card, how the hell has the possible ending of England's 60 years of hurt ended up revolving so much around Jarrell Kwanzaa. Who ever thought he would be such a main figure in all of this? Yeah, I was like, I did a small fist pump when I found out that Kwanzaa was fit. I haven't watched him play in about two years. What am I doing? What is going on? I obviously grew up in the Liverpool-United couple of Arsenal era. That was it. Do you know what I mean?

34:47We can't have people playing for Real Madrid and by Leverkusen and then Villa. Just go back to what it was. Two tables at the breakfast buffet. Lamps and JT on one. Gaz Neville and the United boys on the other. That's what we need. This is too weird. Yeah.

35:05Charlie Eccleshare:Do they all eat together, Charlie? We haven't heard about this. So who sits with Jarrell Kwanza? Hendo, presumably. Just sort of like... Just bring him into the fold. Visiting all the tables. Yeah. Hendo's doing the rounds for sure. 100%. He's always at it. Some parts of this World Cup, Jake, are pushing the boundaries of parody. England faced Norway, of course, in the quarterfinals, and it's being reported that tickets for this game are being advertised on resale websites for£6 million. In fact, it's£5.99 million, which I think is funnier. That's incredible. I mean, the American kind of capacity to inflict the raw logic of the market on everything is unmatched.

35:49There was so much stuff with the new... I'm not a basketball man, but the New York Knicks won the championship for the first time in 55 years. And I think the average ticket price for the final game was like 25 grand or something like that. Like genuinely insane. So it kind of doesn't surprise me. I guess the Premier, having Haaland in that game as well helps, I think, from an American perspective.

36:14Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I'm really desensitized to five-figure sums for World Cup tickets now. It completely washes over my head. When it's that large as well, is there the kind of possibility you could say, well, I bought my ticket for like an undisclosed fee? I can't share that with you right now. Yeah. But yeah, Norway is in the next round, Charlie. And of course, we go up against Erling Haaland, who's now tied on seven goals with Lionel Messi and Kylian Mbappe for the golden boot. Harry Kane just behind them on six. Zmany Dembele on four. This is just a great golden boot race, isn't it? I mean, I don't want to be all basic about it, but it's great to see the big names.

36:52Charlie Eccleshare:No slugs. I mean, Oyathabel's on four. I'm all right with that. He is Spain's essentially main striker. Ismail Assar, he's out of the tournament. He's on four. Vinicius Junior's hovering around on four. There are no slugs here. This is good. Razabal's a sort of deluxe slug. No, it is. And especially like seeing it through my kids and my nephew's eyes. Like they're so into these kinds of players, obviously, these huge names. And it is great when it's like, oh, should we watch the highlights in the morning? and you're like, Messi's going to get a couple here or Mbappe, that's such an easy sell. And yeah, this is an absolutely perfect, elite golden boot race.

37:26Charlie Eccleshare:I haven't seen anybody deploying the over to you player X for the golden boot yet, but yeah, maybe there's still time for that. It's getting harder to contextualise Erling Haaland's goal-scoring exploits, Jake, but I enjoyed this from Jim Proudfoot who simply tweeted, Erling Haaland now has 20 international goals this season, which is just fucking mad to look at. It's absolutely mad. he's a 20 goal a season man in international football that is crackers isn't it like i i mean um the ronaldo and messier already broke the bank for superlative superlative uh are an all-time low but they must be trying to cast around to find a couple more behind the back of the sofa because this is this is out of superlative's territory surely it is although and yeah i did think that his second goal yesterday i don't want to go overboard but i think it's like just about the most emphatic finish I've ever seen in my life.

38:17Really? It is, it's so... I thought there was something quite casual about it, personally. But it's so elite. It's like, I'm this good. I'm just going to get the ball. The fact as well, I think, that he's not cutting in and hitting it. Because I think you see that more often. The fact that it's on the left side, he's just got it. And he's like, I'm just going to put this in the bottom corner. It's like, my God. The smallest of postage stamps as well. Like, it's like, I kind of, the first time I did that thing, I was like I think you should save that and then they showed the reverse angle and it's like oh no it's like put it in the literally impossible place to save I think it's also fun like really fun watching a player score a goal they don't usually score or they don't score that often as well that was really up there for me with that where it's like he doesn't shoot from there usually I think

39:00Charlie Eccleshare:his celebration reflected that Jake I mean it didn't feel like a very World Cup last 16 goal celebration just standing there but I guess that's pretty much the only thing you could do when you basically hit a no backlift 25 yarder into the corner against Brazil yeah there was there was a real kind of almost sheepishness about it to be like oh wow yeah I can do that as well like that's that's a bit that's not very it's not very cricket of me to just bring that out it was just a bit like I don't think I should be doing this yeah the scene just got more surreal with Neymar grinning his way through that consolation penalty at the end Charlie his last kick in international football let's face it I mean that that was slightly tin pot the ending to this game just Neymar just having a little grinning session with the Norway goalkeeper yeah it was a bit weird the grinning I much preferred was the way the France players were laughing at the Paraguay I actually really rated that as a tactic as like you're clearly trying to wind us up and we're just going to laugh at you fair play yeah okay that's the extended super Sunday of World Cup action taken care of we'll be back very shortly

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41:47Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

41:55Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. a reminder that you can sign up for Dreamland for just£5.99 a month. You'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes plus two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show. Lots of other things as well. Just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com. Now, perhaps the second I've got a piece of paper here moment of this World Cup, Charlie, which was FIFA overturning or rather suspending the suspension of Follerim Balogun after he was sent off against Bosnia the other day, allowing him to play against Belgium in the last 16. A lot of hand-wringing about this, quite rightly, given that Donald Trump phoned FIFA up to get the...

42:35Charlie Eccleshare:But it is... There's something classically World Cup about this. It brings up the memories of the military junta in 1978 and all that sort of stuff. The World Cup needs a little bit of this kind of looseness, doesn't it? FIFA and dictatorships have always gone hand in hand. This is just heritage. It was so funny how that played out, wasn't it? because when I first saw it, I was like, God, I mean, this is so messed up. I was like, you know, and I bet, call me crazy, but I reckon there's a whiff of corruption here. And then Donald Trump's like, I did it. I called FIFA and they said yes. It was like, ah, okay, cool.

43:08Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, no cloak and dagger about this, Charlie. It was just, yeah, this is what we did. What are you going to do about it? Yeah, fully corrupt. And yeah, the show must go on. Yeah, but I just love what the World Cup does as well. The fact that like, you know, Foller and Balogun, And he's a really good player, but he's not someone who many people have taken a huge amount of notice. That he is like the absolute centre of the universe. And now whether he plays or doesn't is like the biggest story, certainly in sport, but like completely transcendent. Yeah, Jake, if I told you like four or five years ago that Jarrell Quanta and Foller and Balogun were going to be the central figures to this World Cup, apart from the elite level players vying for the golden boot, what would you have said?

43:47I think that the want to be a fly on the wall for the guy briefing Donald Trump to explain this, or do they just give him a script and say, just read it, like on the phone call with Gianni, because it's like, so you're telling me this guy, he's a red card, you're going to have to go bad. I don't really understand what that means. Is that a red card? Is that good or bad? We like this guy? We don't want him to play? We do? Follow him. I don't like the sound of that name, I gotta tell you. so I don't really know how do they get him on Battle like a cold was he Donald Trump? How do they get him on the phone with Gianni like what information do they give him?

44:22I love with that the idea of them being like yeah so he started at Arsenal actually yeah no he did do he did do quite a bit he scored a goal in the Europa League actually yeah there was a lot of hype about him very much in the shop window in this tournament yeah there was a lot of PSR involved he should he probably should still be there is a good chance he might go back they're in the market yeah

44:40Charlie Eccleshare:so if this World Cup is beginning to regress to what the late 70s how far how much further could we go charlie i think could we have a couple of right hooks to take us into the 60s and then what i eventually want to happen is the usa to get to the final and then have a row before the game about which ball they're going to use in the final can we use our one okay we'll use half each but yeah i mean this it's all just sort of adding to the folklore of the tournament isn't it i mean as you say obviously it is completely effed up but um this these sorts of details will be remembered this is great i mean this this world Cup is essentially turning out to be Jonathan Wilson's The Power and the Glory, but in Memento style done backwards.

45:20Charlie Eccleshare:A non-linear World Cup. Yeah, it's an absolute all-timer. In that spirit, my chronology for this episode takes us to Australia versus Egypt on Friday, let's say Friday. And here's Darren Kan, the aforementioned Darren Kan, repaying a chunk of his BBC tournament fee. And I don't know whether it was the quality of the football at times in that game, but maybe you noticed like myself and Scott did, the referee looked like he was blowing his whistle the wrong way around. Apparently, we've been told by Darren Kan, South American officials have an extra mouthpiece on their whistles. So there's something that we've learned tonight in amongst everything else.

45:57Charlie Eccleshare:So you're not going to get that if Darren Kan's not there, Charlie. That's what he's there for. Great bit of knowledge. Great. There's knowledge, you know, it's not so parochial, extends way beyond just the Premier League. Jake, I haven't looked into this. So, you know, I've done my time on cliches looking into the granular detail of referees' whistles. I don't know why the South American referees have an extra mouthpiece on the whistle. I assume it's to emit a slightly different pitch of whistle for certain different scenarios, say, like a 17-man brawl, which is likely to happen more in South America than anywhere else.

46:27Yeah, you need to be equipped with a certain whistling technology for the Copa Libertadores. Like, it does sound a bit made up. I would rate Darren if he's been like, no one will check this. Not even Ari's checking this. They will remember.

46:42Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, very possibly. Let's move on from niche knowledge to irresistible cheap shot corner. This came from Darren Richmond almost milliseconds after it happened and then subsequently thousands of others. Here's BBC News' Jane Hill. It took Australia more than 40 minutes to equalise through an Egypt-owned goal. No goals in extra time, took it to penalties. but then Sokiris missed two spot kicks allowing Egypt's Hossam Abdel-Mageed to slot home the winning spot kick. Charlie, there are so many ways we can delve into this. Do you suspect towards the end of that passage that Jane Hill sort of realised what had happened?

47:24Charlie Eccleshare:It's really hard to say. I mean, because it's so... It sounds so unfamiliar to her. I mean, the suggestion, isn't it, that she in the moment thought Sakeros was a player who took two penalties who'd missed two penalties yeah right and I guess once she said that yeah she probably did think oh wait is that possible something's happened here um I'm gonna say this is a charitable read of the situation Jay but I'm actually I'm convinced now this is my primary theory she saw Socceroos and thought what a ridiculous nickname for a football team that is I'm gonna go for plan b you don't care what happened Socceroos is absurd I'm fully back Jane Hilde here yeah maybe she's like so into pronunciation like she she can do the proper pronunciation of like selechao or whatever it is for the brazilian national team she's like are we sure that soqueiros is not the correct pronunciation that we've been saying it wrong all these years the aussies are fuming with us um yeah poor old jane i think she's she's tried to make it sound better and she made it sound way way worse uh charlie i want to see her i want to see her confronted with a tougher challenge like segue or lambast and see how she does tirade next up this is about as niche as world cup content could possibly get.

48:33Charlie Eccleshare:No other podcast is bothering with this. It's unexpected and unsatisfying noises in football broadcasts. France versus Paraguay. Well, that's probably their best effort of the game so far for France Manu Kone tipped over by Hiel. We talked before about backing off and giving the midfielders too much time and space. There's the space. He cuts across the ball. It's a lovely save from Hiel. Fully extended. right arm pushing it over the bar yeah orkai 2604 jake said uh did anyone else just hear the windows device disconnected noise at around 54 minutes of paraguay versus france it's a horrible noise to hear because it's uncertain yeah i started i did hear it i started being like what if i got plugged in i don't know anything plugged in it was um also like is this just like a bbc person's got like their laptop in the orcs what's going on yeah how is this even possible i mean yeah we could delve into the actual explanation for this charlie but the noise itself like that sort of descending melody of something's gone wrong and then like if it happens unexpectedly then it means you've got a wobbly cable which is obviously just the worst thing in humanity isn't it it's really timpah and does make it seem like the whole thing is just like a computer being linked up to a tv screen which yeah feels like really is that what i play is completely hinged and precarious.

49:56It's like, I'm worried now. Can you plug iPlayer back in, please? Why is this being played through a computer? Put it on a fucking TV.

50:04Charlie Eccleshare:iPlayer's all done by Zoom, Jake. It's just off a telly. Yeah, this is it. This is where our licence fee is going. One man plugging HDMI cable in. I really hope this is the case. On a more footballistic level, Charlie, Uzbekistan's Ilgiz Tantashev came from a lot of criticism for his management of this game. We love mentioning a referee's nationality when they become a bit hapless. And so Uzbekistan very much meets this threshold of, oh, well, if we say it's from there, then everyone will just assume he's shit. Well, I mean, I guess, yeah, like the famous, the Russian linesman is actually from Azerbaijan in the 66 World Cup final.

50:40Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Just to rub a stamp at his hapless performance, Jake, he got one out of 10 in L 'Akipa. Oh, wow. Yeah. Isn't that like the average score in L 'Akipa? Yeah, it is to be fair. Yeah, they probably hate referees anyway, so it's probably par for the course. But yeah, poor bloke, I'm sure he'll bounce back. Big news. I'm going to say exclusive on the basis that no other podcast again will bother with this, Charlie. In response to our recent query about how and where those massive flags that are unfurled pre-game are transported between games, Jersey Jingler writes in and says, My mate is a volunteer flag carrier at Philadelphia.

51:16Charlie Eccleshare:And they confirm that after the kickoff, the flags are packed up and shipped to wherever that team plays next. Wow. I can't believe that's the explanation. I mean, all things considered, that is the rational explanation. The flag is used, then it's moved to the next destination for where it's needed. I mean, perhaps we should have seen that coming. Yeah, that does sort of make sense. But there must have been, I mean, like, I wasn't advocating, like, the kind of all 48 at all grounds way of doing it. But there must be, like, I mean, I don't know how expensive these flags are, but you must have a vague sense of where people are likely to or able to play.

51:50and just kind of work around it. It feels highly freighted with anxiety to be like, oh God, when's the DHL man getting here? We've not got the flag.

52:00Charlie Eccleshare:What about crossing the border? Is that an issue? Like it must take a little bit longer to get the flag over because that's getting inspected, surely. Especially depending on what the flag is in this climate. Yeah. So yeah, exclusive confirmation, we think, from the Football Clichés podcast.

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54:05Charlie Eccleshare:Next up, Darren Fletcher has broken the US. In a good way, I mean. Here is The Ringers' Brian Curtis, a man whose opinions I've enjoyed for a while. mainly because of his obsession with the Athletics' Rule of Three headlines. So I trust this guy's opinion. Here he is on R Fletch on Fox. I am a big, big supporter of World Cup announcer Darren Fletcher. I don't know how much Darren Fletcher you've gotten to listen to, but man, he has been fantastic for Fox during the World Cup. Did 20 plus years of broadcasting in the UK. His style is fascinating because he is the play-by-play announcer. with analyst Owen Hargreaves, but a very opinionated play-by-play announcer.

54:50Like he is rendering opinions. He's arguing with the rules guy. Love that. He's enthusiastic, but enthusiastic in a I want to sink my teeth into this game way rather than enthusiastic in a soccer is awesome, isn't it way, which I love. He was doing some American analogies last week where he was like, he's a lockdown fullback, just like Rivas Island in the NFL. And again, I'm like, I'm not sure in 2026 Americans need the direct comp to Darrell Rivas. You feel like we're being talked down to? We understand defense and soccer, but he did it in such a delightful way that it made me smile from ear to ear.

55:36Good on you, Darren Fletcher. You're doing some great stuff at the World Cup.

55:39Charlie Eccleshare:Now, Charlie, the interesting thing about this feedback is they are appraising the Darren Fletcher that we know. This isn't a different, you know, Fox mode Darren Fletcher that we might have seen elsewhere in the tournament. They are celebrating all the things that we have become to become slightly weary of with Fletch in the UK. And it's that freshness that makes me fall back in love with him all over again. Yeah, I mean, it's just we've talked about how overexposed he's become. I was just waiting there for like, and he does this thing where a goal will be scored and he'll wait 10, 15, sometimes 20 seconds before saying a word.

56:12It's just so powerful. And that noise he makes the in-all. Yeah, that is going to blow their minds when he starts doing that. He'll become iconic. Yeah, exactly. We've just probably, well, we have definitely had too much fletch.

56:27Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. I mean, these sort of random UK figures become quite popular in the US. They love random UK figures every now and then, Jake. And Fletch is just the latest one. But, you know, to break the mould slightly, he's just not some posho like Hugh Grant or something. You know, not the sort of idealised version of a British man. This is Fletch being Fletch. Yeah, like you say, I did enjoy Fletch not going fox mode. Like, Fletch has gone fox mode. Do you know what I mean? It's like that would be a real worry. It does sound like, yeah, they like the things that we're getting slightly bored of. Is there a kind of like going out of the top of his game kind of Hyunmin song to the MLS kind of vibe?

57:05Like he's not going out there at the end of his game. Leave the commentary before the commentary leaves you kind of thing.

57:10Charlie Eccleshare:The pace is a little bit slower. It's easier on the next. Great lifestyle. No one recognises me here. I can walk down the street and, you know. I can sort of imagine him saying that. I really can. I'm really sorry. But yes. Yeah, I'm glad we're in agreement on that. But if, you know, the sort of sports media cognoscente have fallen in love with Darren Fletcher out in the US, I wonder what they would make of Jonathan Pearce. This came from Adam Simpson. Here is JP during Portugal versus Croatia, really using the medium of radio to paint the picture for us in two very different ways. His right foot gets across and it's scooped away by Vitina.

57:49Charlie Eccleshare:Back to the halfway line. And Von Gratchits tidies up and finds his goalkeeper, Dominic Leverkovic, who is in bright fluorescent, burns your eyes out pink today. It is so powerfully pink. It's like the pink your grandmother would wear lipstick when you used to go and visit her on a Sunday afternoon. And she'd then try and clean your face by spitting into a piece of tissue with lipstick on it. You used to have that? It's disgusting rubbing your cheek with it. You must have a shirt that colour in the wardrobe at home. No? Yeah, well, and the song. And Croatia have possession. I'll leave you with that thought.

58:31Not pleasant, eh? Scar me with that thought. Yeah, why did grandmothers do that? That's just borderline disgraceful. Scars. Can scar you for life. No one will hear anywhere on 5 Live. I like the song.

58:50Croatia.

58:51Charlie Eccleshare:Ah, that shade of pink, Jake. I just absolutely love when people psychologically reveal too much about themselves in a kind of ostensibly throwaway anecdote. That kind of like, of course, it's like when you come home and your dad says, you're never going to make anything of yourself, JP, and you're not trying hard enough. It's exactly like that. It's really that kind of like, oh, this is a very specific memory that you have. This isn't a kind of generalizable anecdote. The only thing missing was I was half imagining him saying, your grandmother kisses you from right to left, and you're just thinking, get away from me.

59:24Charlie Eccleshare:Wiping your face from right to left. Yeah, grandma and her changed strip of all white. Love that man. A tremendous man. This next one came from James Moore. This is superb as well. David Beckham, Charlie, on his Instagram, sharing a memory of the day that he met Victoria. It was Chelsea versus Manchester United on the 22nd of February 1997. And he says, oh, and I scored a goal. And for the purposes of the visual element of his Instagram story here, he consulted the season-specific page for Manchester United 1996-97 and went down and screen-grapped the entry where it mentions that he scored a goal.

1:00:05Charlie Eccleshare:He's got a Wikipedia for that season. What a classy move. Yeah, that's great. I don't know what would be my go-to. but the aesthetic is great. I mean, a goal, of course, slightly overshadowed by Zola's fantastic opener. Oh, that one, right? Yeah, no mention of that here. It's good that you got the attendance in. 28 ,336, Jake. Wow, that's, yeah, that must have been during some Stamford Bridge renovations. Yeah, sure. Yeah, the boarding. Putting the hotel in. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Just, I mean, as you say, Charlie, there is the unbeatable aesthetic of the Wikipedia summary page for pretty much any circumstances.

1:00:40Charlie Eccleshare:No wonder there was no better place for him to go and get it. He doesn't have some graphic design to do it up for him or anything like that. No, just Wikipedia. Just crop the draw, then you can see a win just above and below in green. Just a classy touch. We were doing well, actually, yeah. Yeah. Trying to remember what those games would have been. We don't have time for that. There's a little time for a bread and butter bit of cliches here, Jake. Sad Ken writes in and says, What's harder, fashioning or conjuring an opportunity? Oof, I love that. um i think conjuring is is harder i think um i think it it kind of suggests a kind of chipped through ball i'm thinking an erdogan-ish kind of like scoop or lift um and uh whereas i think you could apply fashioning to relatively run-of-the-mill cross or or maybe i'm not giving it quite enough credence there but yeah definitely conjuring for me charlie this is a great approach this i wasn't expecting it and and he's absolutely nailed this jake but um charlie what i also had in mind was that a fashioning of a chance can happen in almost any game state um whereas conjuring it's it it suggests a level of desperation they need something they need a bit of magic here you don't just conjure something up out of nowhere at nil nil you conjure it when you're when you're desperate at one nil down exactly i was going to say conjuring is a moment of magic yeah you know they're very um obviously kind of associated i mean but hard is an interesting word here because fashioning there's something that's a bit like a laborer like it's more people can do a fact more people can fashion a chance but there's something that's there's something quite like workmanlike about it yeah you fashion a makeshift knife don't you out of flint or something exactly so it's like it's it's hard it's easier in the sense that more people can do it but it's a bit it looks more like hard work fashioning whereas conjuring the whole point of it is that like jake says with someone like odegaard it should look quite natural and easy you know it's created by a sort of often quite flighty kind of player yeah yeah i mean and jake fashioning's been around for thousands of years the cavemen were doing the fashioning magic's not even real so technically hasn't even been invented exactly yeah this is um you can go back to the mesolithic era and their fashioning i think fashioning definitely implies again to that kind of tribal aspect it implies a collective effort you can have a collective fashioning as well i think yeah okay whereas a conjuring i feel like that's a very individual thing they've they again like erdegaard and the team kind of played some like intricate like passes to fashion a chance for harland but erdegaard with the chipped through ball is conjuring one for him that would be how i might differentiate as well can i just say this is immaculate cliches podding from you and as as as the recording time ticks over to 0100, cometh the hour, cometh the man, with a frankly inch-perfect piece of clichés podding.

1:03:28Charlie Eccleshare:This is it. You're in for the long haul. And I think all our listeners agree. Penultimate item, Charlie, from Neil Ralph. He says, why is every crisp advert with Lionel Messi identical? He turns up in the middle for five seconds, as though he was only paid to be on set for half an hour, then everything else continues either side of his appearance like he was never there. Do you think it is as practical a situation as that? Oh, we've only got it for five minutes. What can we do? Quite possibly. I mean, he is always, whether it's on the pitch or a Ballon d 'Or ceremony or in a crisp advert, which are basically the three environments you're ever going to see him.

1:04:00No one can ever get near him. You know, like his movement's so good. And even in like a Ballon d 'Or ceremony, he'll be sat. But no one's ever talking to him. The people either side of him, they're not talking to him. He's still kind of just this like separate being. It's kind of incredible. I don't think I've ever seen him really like converse with anyone or like even really, even with Argentina, or it just feels like he's so separate from the rest of the players.

1:04:21Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, and in these adverts, Jake, he basically does a really good sort of representation of Lionel Messi. He just turns up and looks really puzzled about what's going on around him. And then also they have to make him say walkers, which is so ridiculous in Lionel Messi's barely known voice. Yeah, they definitely are like, they're fitting the part to the actor here. It's like, this is a guy who doesn't really want to speak, doesn't really talk to anyone, just wants to sit on a sofa and say walkers. and it kind of reflects his kind of I wonder if they did it with Haaland whether Haaland would come like smashing through the wall and like chuck crisps over everyone do you know what I mean?

1:04:57It feels like in a way it's kind of reflective of his playing style in the advert yeah very strange I do feel for him I mean I guess he's earning probably like a billion pounds per advert so this thing is fine but

1:05:08Charlie Eccleshare:yeah it just it just seems slightly incongruous brand to me I want to end on this one some innocent footballing ignorance here It came from Radio 2. It's the Couch Potatoes Quiz with Joel Domit. In for Ryland, of course. Question number five. Which member of Wimbledon's crazy gang went on to co-host Gladiators in the 90s alongside Ulrika Johnson?

1:05:41We need Sally on this one. We're going to go Sally. Sally, you've been brought in. I'm going to re-ask the question. Which member of Wimbledon's Crazy Gang went on to co-host Gladiators in the 90s alongside Ulrika Johnson? Oh, gosh. I don't even know what the Crazy Gang is, to be fair.

1:06:02Charlie Eccleshare:No, that's where I went wrong. I'll say Sue Barker. You're going Sue Barker. Well, the Crazy Gang was the Wimbledon football team. I think you were getting distracted with that bit. the gladiators in the 90s alongside a week of jolly it was course of john fashion of of course of course it's okay you're still doing wonderfully well i'm so sorry down don't you

1:06:29Charlie Eccleshare:what's the funniest bit about this charlie is it the idea it's just the the sheer mental image of sue barker sort of cutting up somebody's clothes and throwing them out the window by setting them on fire john inverdale's clothes um oh what was so good about that was at just the moment where she was about to make that error i was like oh i know what's going to happen it this is gonna i see what's going on here but then i didn't have enough time to think who's it going to be and sue barker was too perfect it's a level of football knowledge that perhaps doesn't really belong on a sort of light-hearted um surface level radio 2 quiz jake yeah i think that the assumption that you know the members of the crazy gang i think is a bridge too far to be fair um and then apply applying it to to the championships rather than the vinnie jones and the gang makes sense i guess but yeah i kind of spotted where it might be going as well as charlie but the mental image of them being like well it was i mean barks was the maddest one you know like she was a nutter like that that was a really fun part of it oh dear what a lovely way to end things uh thanks to you charlie eckleshare thank you thanks to you jake farrell superb stuff thanks so much having me yep and thanks to everyone for listening thanks to dave walker for almost making it on the podcast we'll be back in a few days see you then

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1:08:24Charlie Eccleshare:james gray from the tennis unfiltered podcast bringing you all things tennis as wimbledon comes around once again. And what a Wimbledon it promises to be. Can Yannick Sinner survive a London heatwave? Will Novak Djokovic win number 25? And Serena Williams is back again. Yes, really. We'll be live on the ground for SW19 to talk about all the strawberries, the cream and more. Search Tennis Unfiltered and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Sports Social Podcast Network.